The "It takes place 1000 years before Skyrim" is a poor arguement

Iccotak

I am getting real tired of the "its 1000 years before Skyrim" argument almost everytime I say Zenimax should make Windhelm look like it did in Skyrim (2011).
It's a very poor argument when;
They Re-Created Vvardenfell from TES:III with minor differences
They Re-Created Imperial City from Oblivion and gave it the Daedric Makeover.
They Re-Created Anvil and Kvatch from Oblivion.

If those towns and Cities look just like they did in their games (with Minor differences) then Windhelm should look just like it did in Skyrim (2011).
The Lore clearly says the city was built by Ysgramor in the Merethic Era. The Architecture clearly comes from the Merethic Era.

Aliyavana

They were developed at same time so while it would be nice to update old content, won't bring in profits

Yolokin_Swagonborn

If this line of reasoning helps the mushrooms in moronwind look less disgusting then I'm all for it.

Gan Xing

You might want to blame the different developers. The developers who created the base game were different then the ones who created the DLC. They didn't have the foresight to have Windhelm look similar to what it did in Skyrim.

Cadbury

I wanna see the College of Winterhold pre-collapse. Is that so wrong?

DocFrost72

Giving you an agree purely because it isn't a "GIVE ME DRAGONZ" thread.

Robo_Hobo

Yeah I think the reason it looks different is less to do with the fact that it took place so long before Skyrim like you said, and more to do with that ESO had been in development since 5 years before Skyrim was released with different developers. Skyrim itself probably had a lot of different architectural changes in its own development too. You can see how the Outlaw's Refuge of Riften looks very similar to the Thieve's Guild cistern of Skyrim, as it was added after the game came out, compared to the rest of Riften in how it looks to Skyrim's riften.

Although in Riften's case it actually would make a lot of sense that it looks different to Skyrim's Riften because not long before Skyrim takes place most of the city was burned to the ground.

Sigtric

The events of ESO happen chronologically before Skyrim, therefor Skyrim is wrong.

Egonieser

Dude, chill.

ESO started development at 2007, a year prior to Skyrim.
AND it was done by a different set of developers. Plans for Windhelm in ESO were probably drawn long before Skyrim's. Just because Skyrim released quicker, doesn't mean it was built first. By the time Skyrim released, ESO's base game zones were probably close to, if not finished, meaning there would be no time nor need to make it the same as Skyrim's. They are not meant to be exactly the same - different developers have different enterpretations of same areas. Bethesda played an advisory role in ESO's development, meaning they gave them rough plans and ideas of what it is going to look like in Skyrim, but left the details up to ZoS as one is making a MMO, other is making a SP game. They did not come out and point "X, Y, Z needs to be here, that stone needs to be there, the roof of this building has to be at this angle." as at the time even they probably didn't know what it will look like when finished themselves...

You say Morrowind, IC and Gold Coast look the same to originals? Yeah, maybe because they were being developed with an already launched and full game before them? (Oblivion/Morrowind) Which means they had a point of reference whereas Windhelm was being developed years before that, and before even the launch of Skyrim, which means there was NO point of reference during the development cycle. They did not have a fully working and finished game before them to dissect to copy bit by bit to look as identical as possible, unlike the recent Morrowind expansion, which they said themselves as they could analyze the entire zone, every nook and cranny and make it as close to the original as possible, with minor changes to account for the timeframe differences in the lore, and the events that happened afterwards.

You can't compare DLC and Chapter similarities to their original versions because all of them were developed a lot later than the base game, which Windhelm is a part of. And like I said above, at the time Windhelm did NOT have a "original" version. Both Skyrim and ESO versions of Windhelm could be correct as they were roughly being developed at about the same time.

Please think or do some basic google research before spewing nonsensical rants. There are actual, real issues to rant about.

BigBadVolk

Cadbury wrote: »

I wanna see the College of Winterhold pre-collapse. Is that so wrong?

No, and we all do

asuitandtyb14_ESO

I hear countless white knights, or those simply wanting to have an "ignorance is bliss" answer, use this excuse for just about every lore inconsistency in this game. It simply doesn't hold up under inspection, and I ignore such responses as hopeful ignorance, at best.

bloodthirstyvampire

Sigtric wrote: »

The events of ESO happen chronologically before Skyrim, therefor Skyrim is wrong.

This

MrBetadine

Egonieser wrote: »

Dude, chill.

ESO started development at 2007, a year prior to Skyrim.
AND it was done by a different set of developers. Plans for Windhelm in ESO were probably drawn long before Skyrim's. Just because Skyrim released quicker, doesn't mean it was built first. By the time Skyrim released, ESO's base game zones were probably close to, if not finished, meaning there would be no time nor need to make it the same as Skyrim's. They are not meant to be exactly the same - different developers have different enterpretations of same areas. Bethesda played an advisory role in ESO's development, meaning they gave them rough plans and ideas of what it is going to look like in Skyrim, but left the details up to ZoS as one is making a MMO, other is making a SP game. They did not come out and point "X, Y, Z needs to be here, that stone needs to be there, the roof of this building has to be at this angle." as at the time even they probably didn't know what it will look like when finished themselves...

You say Morrowind, IC and Gold Coast look the same to originals? Yeah, maybe because they were being developed with an already launched and full game before them? (Oblivion/Morrowind) Which means they had a point of reference whereas Windhelm was being developed years before that, and before even the launch of Skyrim, which means there was NO point of reference during the development cycle. They did not have a fully working and finished game before them to dissect to copy bit by bit to look as identical as possible, unlike the recent Morrowind expansion, which they said themselves as they could analyze the entire zone, every nook and cranny and make it as close to the original as possible, with minor changes to account for the timeframe differences in the lore, and the events that happened afterwards.

You can't compare DLC and Chapter similarities to their original versions because all of them were developed a lot later than the base game, which Windhelm is a part of. And like I said above, at the time Windhelm did NOT have a "original" version. Both Skyrim and ESO versions of Windhelm could be correct as they were roughly being developed at about the same time.

Please think or do some basic google research before spewing nonsensical rants. There are actual, real issues to rant about.

and Skyrim began it's pre-production right after Oblivion, which is 2006

DeadlyRecluse

Some things change dramatically after 1000 years. Some things don't. /shrug.

starkerealm

Wasn't Windhelm sieged and partially destroyed in the late second era? I honestly don't remember, so this isn't a rhetorical question.

TazESO

Cadbury wrote: »

I wanna see the College of Winterhold pre-collapse. Is that so wrong?

Me too!

Chrlynsch

While we are poking around... Dragons for the dragon break, also auction house, and flying mounts.

Some men just want to watch the world burn

Rohamad_Ali

We use to have doors on towers in Cyrodiil . All the carpenters went on strike . Maybe Windelm could hire them with the atone Mason's and build it back up .

Iccotak

Egonieser wrote: »

Dude, chill.

ESO started development at 2007, a year prior to Skyrim.
AND it was done by a different set of developers. Plans for Windhelm in ESO were probably drawn long before Skyrim's. Just because Skyrim released quicker, doesn't mean it was built first. By the time Skyrim released, ESO's base game zones were probably close to, if not finished, meaning there would be no time nor need to make it the same as Skyrim's. They are not meant to be exactly the same - different developers have different enterpretations of same areas. Bethesda played an advisory role in ESO's development, meaning they gave them rough plans and ideas of what it is going to look like in Skyrim, but left the details up to ZoS as one is making a MMO, other is making a SP game. They did not come out and point "X, Y, Z needs to be here, that stone needs to be there, the roof of this building has to be at this angle." as at the time even they probably didn't know what it will look like when finished themselves...

You say Morrowind, IC and Gold Coast look the same to originals? Yeah, maybe because they were being developed with an already launched and full game before them? (Oblivion/Morrowind) Which means they had a point of reference whereas Windhelm was being developed years before that, and before even the launch of Skyrim, which means there was NO point of reference during the development cycle. They did not have a fully working and finished game before them to dissect to copy bit by bit to look as identical as possible, unlike the recent Morrowind expansion, which they said themselves as they could analyze the entire zone, every nook and cranny and make it as close to the original as possible, with minor changes to account for the timeframe differences in the lore, and the events that happened afterwards.

You can't compare DLC and Chapter similarities to their original versions because all of them were developed a lot later than the base game, which Windhelm is a part of. And like I said above, at the time Windhelm did NOT have a "original" version. Both Skyrim and ESO versions of Windhelm could be correct as they were roughly being developed at about the same time.

Please think or do some basic google research before spewing nonsensical rants. There are actual, real issues to rant about.

You just pointed out stuff that I already know.
Yes I can compare the base game and the DLC's.
The DLC's are clearly of higher-quality and they take into account that this game takes place in the world elder scrolls.
Yes I am aware that ESO had a different development team than Skyrim. That's why the early days ESO looked really cartoony and had an exaggerated art style like World of Warcraft.

But Skyrim was released about three years before ESO. Meaning they had about three years to go over Windhelm and fix it.

This "rant" is just a point that goes back to an earlier discussion of mine that the company should update the base game to be of equal quality with the DLC's.
Not immediately, Not all at once, Not even this year, But sometime within the next couple of years.

On a side note. After the huge success of Skyrim, Zenimax should have taken more time with the game and released it a year later

Iccotak

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Giving you an agree purely because it isn't a "GIVE ME DRAGONZ" thread.

I really dislike those threads.
We pretty much already have dragons in ESO.
Daedric Titans are made from a dragon.
It's pretty much the answer to dragons having 4 legs & 2 wings and others having 2 legs & 2 wings in some fiction.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Daedric_Titan

Recremen

Realistically there's zero reason to faithfully reproduce any of the locations because they're all tiny, incomplete representations of a theoretical form based on lore and common sense. Windhelm ought to be a massive sprawling city instead of housed by 20 residents, but this was not the case in TES V Skyrim. Even in ESO, while it clearly has more people living in and around it, it's incomplete, because a city should house thousands realistically. Any desire to "faithfully reproduce" something from one of the games is purely an exercise in feeding nostalgia, which isn't going to be huge in something as unmemorable as Windhelm. Whiterun is a more likely candidate for that kind of treatment, though!

CapnPhoton

[quote="Iccotak;d-355246"

If those towns and Cities look just like they did in their games (with Minor differences) then Windhelm should look just like it did in Skyrim (2011).
The Lore clearly says the city was built by Ysgramor in the Merethic Era. The Architecture clearly comes from the Merethic Era.
[/quote]

Not necessarily. If you look at a real world scenario, some cities on earth look like they did centuries ago or more and some do not. It depends on the culture, their history, and societal focus and priorities. Just because one place completely modernizes, does not mean another will. In ESO if some places look similar and some do not makes it more realistic.

MattT1988

I actually prefer the layout of the city in ESO over the layout in Skyrim. Bigger, more open.

starkerealm

Recremen wrote: »

Realistically there's zero reason to faithfully reproduce any of the locations because they're all tiny, incomplete representations of a theoretical form based on lore and common sense. Windhelm ought to be a massive sprawling city instead of housed by 20 residents, but this was not the case in TES V Skyrim. Even in ESO, while it clearly has more people living in and around it, it's incomplete, because a city should house thousands realistically. Any desire to "faithfully reproduce" something from one of the games is purely an exercise in feeding nostalgia, which isn't going to be huge in something as unmemorable as Windhelm. Whiterun is a more likely candidate for that kind of treatment, though!

There was actually a discussion about this from Bethesda back before Oblivion released, talking about how you, basically, needed to abbreviate the size of the environment to get a playable worldspace going. You can replicate a game world in 1:1 scale, Daggerfall and Arena both do so (as I recall), but most of that's going to be empty or uninteresting, and traveling point to point becomes tedious. So, everything gets scaled down so that it's more manageable as a gameplay environment.

Within the context of the setting, Windhelm should be massive, but what we actually see and interact with (in both games) would barely qualify as an outpost in the real world.

The small settlements scattered around the game, like Crosswych or Seyda Neen would be roughly the size of Wayrest (as it's presented in game), while cities should be much more massive. But, that carries a huge development cost, (or requires extensive use of procedural generation, which irks players), and makes the game's environment much harder to manage and navigate. It's not impossible, but it is something most players wouldn't enjoy.

And yes, "most," not all. I mean, I love games where you have huge sprawling cities that you have to navigate. But, I'm also aware I'm in the extreme minority in this case.

hmsdragonfly

Iccotak wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Dude, chill.

ESO started development at 2007, a year prior to Skyrim.
AND it was done by a different set of developers. Plans for Windhelm in ESO were probably drawn long before Skyrim's. Just because Skyrim released quicker, doesn't mean it was built first. By the time Skyrim released, ESO's base game zones were probably close to, if not finished, meaning there would be no time nor need to make it the same as Skyrim's. They are not meant to be exactly the same - different developers have different enterpretations of same areas. Bethesda played an advisory role in ESO's development, meaning they gave them rough plans and ideas of what it is going to look like in Skyrim, but left the details up to ZoS as one is making a MMO, other is making a SP game. They did not come out and point "X, Y, Z needs to be here, that stone needs to be there, the roof of this building has to be at this angle." as at the time even they probably didn't know what it will look like when finished themselves...

You say Morrowind, IC and Gold Coast look the same to originals? Yeah, maybe because they were being developed with an already launched and full game before them? (Oblivion/Morrowind) Which means they had a point of reference whereas Windhelm was being developed years before that, and before even the launch of Skyrim, which means there was NO point of reference during the development cycle. They did not have a fully working and finished game before them to dissect to copy bit by bit to look as identical as possible, unlike the recent Morrowind expansion, which they said themselves as they could analyze the entire zone, every nook and cranny and make it as close to the original as possible, with minor changes to account for the timeframe differences in the lore, and the events that happened afterwards.

You can't compare DLC and Chapter similarities to their original versions because all of them were developed a lot later than the base game, which Windhelm is a part of. And like I said above, at the time Windhelm did NOT have a "original" version. Both Skyrim and ESO versions of Windhelm could be correct as they were roughly being developed at about the same time.

Please think or do some basic google research before spewing nonsensical rants. There are actual, real issues to rant about.

But Skyrim was released about three years before ESO. Meaning they had about three years to go over Windhelm and fix it.

Well the thing is, that's not how game development works. Budget distribution prevented that, there are other things the devs should spend time and resources on, as you have seen, the game wasn't even ready at launch, there were so many bugs and glitches, so many features of an Elder Scrolls game were missing, it was so bad it almost killed the game, no way in hell could they have enough resources to redo all the work they have done for Eastmarch and the Rift.

With that said, I would still love it if some day they will go back and redo Eastmarch and the Rift, but that's a lot of resource and it isn't going to bring any revenue so it's just a man's hope.

Iccotak

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

Egonieser wrote: »

Dude, chill.

ESO started development at 2007, a year prior to Skyrim.
AND it was done by a different set of developers. Plans for Windhelm in ESO were probably drawn long before Skyrim's. Just because Skyrim released quicker, doesn't mean it was built first. By the time Skyrim released, ESO's base game zones were probably close to, if not finished, meaning there would be no time nor need to make it the same as Skyrim's. They are not meant to be exactly the same - different developers have different enterpretations of same areas. Bethesda played an advisory role in ESO's development, meaning they gave them rough plans and ideas of what it is going to look like in Skyrim, but left the details up to ZoS as one is making a MMO, other is making a SP game. They did not come out and point "X, Y, Z needs to be here, that stone needs to be there, the roof of this building has to be at this angle." as at the time even they probably didn't know what it will look like when finished themselves...

You say Morrowind, IC and Gold Coast look the same to originals? Yeah, maybe because they were being developed with an already launched and full game before them? (Oblivion/Morrowind) Which means they had a point of reference whereas Windhelm was being developed years before that, and before even the launch of Skyrim, which means there was NO point of reference during the development cycle. They did not have a fully working and finished game before them to dissect to copy bit by bit to look as identical as possible, unlike the recent Morrowind expansion, which they said themselves as they could analyze the entire zone, every nook and cranny and make it as close to the original as possible, with minor changes to account for the timeframe differences in the lore, and the events that happened afterwards.

You can't compare DLC and Chapter similarities to their original versions because all of them were developed a lot later than the base game, which Windhelm is a part of. And like I said above, at the time Windhelm did NOT have a "original" version. Both Skyrim and ESO versions of Windhelm could be correct as they were roughly being developed at about the same time.

Please think or do some basic google research before spewing nonsensical rants. There are actual, real issues to rant about.

But Skyrim was released about three years before ESO. Meaning they had about three years to go over Windhelm and fix it.

Well the thing is, that's not how game development works. Budget distribution prevented that, there are other things the devs should spend time and resources on, as you have seen, the game wasn't even ready at launch, there were so many bugs and glitches, so many features of an Elder Scrolls game were missing, it was so bad it almost killed the game, no way in hell could they have enough resources to redo all the work they have done for Eastmarch and the Rift.

With that said, I would still love it if some day they will go back and redo Eastmarch and the Rift, but that's a lot of resource and it isn't going to bring any revenue so it's just a man's hope.

It would probably be best to release a dungeon DLC with the zones when/if they get updated

ParaNostram

Two words - dragon break

MarrazzMist

I'm more bothered, how towns in dls's and Vvardevfel look so similar to earlier games. And then again, not too bothered, because I know the answer is various strings of development.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

I would imagine at some point someone probably said...'I know 1000 years is a long time and we could make this place look however we want. But you know we would make a lot more money if instead of trying to make our own stuff up, we just copied all the old stuff.'

ArchMikem

Well technically, it's only 947 years before Skyrim.

Still boggles the mind how much time that is yet Civilization hasn't advanced practically AT ALL. Hell, considering how far along the Dwemer were, it seems like Civilization is receding the more time goes on.

Faulgor

The issue is not that ESO was in developmen before TESV.
The issue was that they had to develop architecture for each of the 10 different races (plus all the ruins). More than one architectural style just didn't make the cut during development of the base game, which had 15 zones (+Cyrodiil +Coldharbour) instead of the one or even half zones we see in DLC. I specifically remember asking about this shortly after release in regards to Dunmer Great House architecture, and they said they just didn't have the time/resources for this.
So you run into problems like this not only in Windhelm, but everywhere in the base game.

I think it would be stellar if they could go back and upgrade all these areas, but as others have said, there's just no money in it for them.