Hidden "Special" Crown Crate Mounts

aisriyth_ESO

Urkraft wrote: »

i am really upset about this situation, especially since i had the feeling, that when ZOS came up with crown jewels, it made many criticism vanish or get a bit more quiet, since it made the amount of money spent for an item countable by those jewels. bringing now this hidden items, looks to me, like ZOS wnats to bring its original concept again ,but this time people aren't shitstorming anymore - or at least not that much as back then. in this case, ZOS did a good job making its customers once more to idiots. I also think, this is highly disrespectfull towards the community, since ZOS, with stepping a bit back and bringing the jewels, made some kind of agreement with the ESO-Community about gambling.

Jamini wrote: »

I don't know why people are surprised by this.

Don't buy clown crates. Don't support toxic marketing practices.

Everyone who supported crown crates: You were warned. You did not listen.

We are trying to start a *** storm, sadly we have dismissive people who are just saying "told you so". The problem is I am not that opposed to crates so long as gems are intact. As soon as they made 4 items in crate unobtainable with gems thats when it crossed from something I would buy without much issue to something that turned sour.

I am really upset ZoS hasn't said anything one way or another about this and I hope they at least let us know what is in store for us if this is the way forward with ultra limited items in the crate that are kind of 'early access' but buyable later at a premium price or what.

Urkraft

We are trying to start a *** storm, sadly we have dismissive people who are just saying "told you so". The problem is I am not that opposed to crates so long as gems are intact. As soon as they made 4 items in crate unobtainable with gems thats when it crossed from something I would buy without much issue to something that turned sour.

i have to admit, that i am also in a "told u so"-mood. i am not even mad, i very...disillusionated. not only by this, but also how zos treated its costumers with the craglorn-crown-house, about skillpoint-banwave, about the stupid banwave or morrowindpreorderers...about the botignorance...

back then i was hard discussing, people told me that that gambling-criticism is too over, and people are adults, when zos stepped back from the original plans and came along with crown jewels i was also at least a bit calmed, since its like a net which stops somebody from falling too deep into it.

i just think...with this action...and with this "meh"-reaction of the community, we are one step closer to that moment, where zos sooner or later would manage to bring us pay2win and people wont even recognize.

i also feel tricked, because it took me some days from just overfly the line, that there are nonbuyable-crowncrate items to recognizing, what zos did there....

Elsonso

Urkraft wrote: »

i just think...with this action...and with this "meh"-reaction of the community, we are one step closer to that moment, where zos sooner or later would manage to bring us pay2win and people wont even recognize.

Well, everyone knows that this bus is careening down the monetization highway. I am sure that some are just riding along until the bus gets to the cliff. That would accurately describe me, except that I think we are going to hit the "afraid to ban cheaters" speed bump first, and I will fall off.

Monetization Designer
Division: ZeniMax Online Studios | Department: Design | Location: Hunt Valley, MD, US

There are no job postings for "ToS Enforcement" positions.

ChandraNalaar

Chalinal wrote: »

Just when I thought these crown crates couldn't be any more predatory, there are now hidden special mounts that are not under the listed rewards on front page, and thus not available for crown gems. If you go to Preview once clicking on the crown crates in store, you will see three additional mounts to the six Dwarven ones: Adamant Dwarven Horse, Ebon Dwarven Senche, and Vitrine Wolf (spelling might be off, going from memory). These do in fact exist as part of this crown crate season, I saw someone already lucky enough to have one.

I do not recall hidden special mounts in any of the previous crown crates seasons. ZO$ keeps coming up with new and improved ways to take advantage of those with gambling issues and/or who are mount collectors. Being able to buy the apex mounts outright with crown gems if you failed enough times at getting one was somewhat acceptable, but for there to be these hidden special mounts that are only available through RNG? Just sickening - a new low in the cash grab effort.

EDIT: I would like "Hidden" to be defined as hidden from the crown gem purchase options, not hidden as in invisible.

Yeah this was a pretty low change, imo. You have an rng crate with a low chance to drop a mount, okay that works. If you buy enough crates you can eventually get enough gems to buy what you want, which is cool since it's the closest thing to a freaking token system we have, but now they put in mounts that are pure rng with no option to buy them. The more I see from ZoS the more I'm convinced they have absolutely zero respect or concern for their playerbase or their game.

firedrgn

Ya but gambling is addictive.

Chalinal

Urkraft wrote: »

i am really upset about this situation, especially since i had the feeling, that when ZOS came up with crown jewels, it made many criticism vanish or get a bit more quiet, since it made the amount of money spent for an item countable by those jewels. bringing now this hidden items, looks to me, like ZOS wnats to bring its original concept again ,but this time people aren't shitstorming anymore - or at least not that much as back then. in this case, ZOS did a good job making its customers once more to idiots. I also think, this is highly disrespectfull towards the community, since ZOS, with stepping a bit back and bringing the jewels, made some kind of agreement with the ESO-Community about gambling.

I agree. Crown gems were ZO$'s compromise to the scam and horrid RNG that is gamble crates. We all said that crown crate - only items were not okay, there should be a way to still get them if you threw enough money. That is where the 1/3 value crown gems came in. You could exchange duplicated crap you didn't want want at a rate of 1/3 the crown gem cost on store. Now they are thinking they are being slick by reintroducing three mounts and a furnishing item that are crown crate - only and cannot be bought with crown gems. The drop rates on the three special mounts are even lower than the apex mounts. I am a mount and pet collector and have every mount and pet in game to date, prior to this season's crates. I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars to keep my collection complete trying for the three special mounts. Thank you ZO$ for all the money you are saving me by putting an end to my collection. You just bent yourself over for any collectors out there like myself, and I'm sure that collectors are a major crown store cash flow.

Keep slapping loyal players and crown store customers in the face and see how far that gets. The amount of crown-purchased home "modifications" is on the rise as well from what I see. Changes to the Craglorn Cavern and other homes that are reducing available space that was originally purchased. Honestly, what the hell happened? When I first started the game, on day one, there were real person ticket responses, not automated robot replies that don't even relate to your issue. There was also a love for the community by developers and they listened to the community and brought ideas into the game that the community suggested or liked and passed on those they did not. Now it is all about the money, crown store, and crown crates. Really disheartening from how it began. Maybe they will see the light again. Customer satisfaction should be paramount in the entertainment industry. Happy customers = paying customers and word of mouth spreading. Also getting friends and family to join which means more players and money. No one is going to recommend a game that is turning to greed.

rotaugen454

I'm not enraged and threatening to quit, but I really don't care for this change. I have always got a crown crate pack when it came out (followed by other packs later if I was in a gambling for fun mood), but this has me sitting on the sidelines, wondering if I will get any or just use some gems to get a couple items and let it pass on by. I am somewhat of a whale (maybe a Beluga) and I've heard others say this has them foregoing on this season's crates. The fact that you could drop $1000 on crates and still not get the item you want and have no gem purchase option is over the line for me personally. None of the ultra rares are "must have" to me, but future sets could be. I hope they get enough monetary feedback to realize this is probably a bad choice. They will go whatever way the numbers point.

Ep1kMalware

Chalinal wrote: »

Just when I thought these crown crates couldn't be any more predatory, there are now hidden special mounts that are not under the listed rewards on front page, and thus not available for crown gems. If you go to Preview once clicking on the crown crates in store, you will see three additional mounts to the six Dwarven ones: Adamant Dwarven Horse, Ebon Dwarven Senche, and Vitrine Wolf (spelling might be off, going from memory). These do in fact exist as part of this crown crate season, I saw someone already lucky enough to have one.

I do not recall hidden special mounts in any of the previous crown crates seasons. ZO$ keeps coming up with new and improved ways to take advantage of those with gambling issues and/or who are mount collectors. Being able to buy the apex mounts outright with crown gems if you failed enough times at getting one was somewhat acceptable, but for there to be these hidden special mounts that are only available through RNG? Just sickening - a new low in the cash grab effort.

EDIT: I would like "Hidden" to be defined as hidden from the crown gem purchase options, not hidden as in invisible.

I noticed that as well when browing through the previews for giggles. It struck a nerve but this is my first time admitting it.

Ep1kMalware

Vercingetorix wrote: »

I see all these complaints and yet... often these are same people are ones buying the crates, thus invalidating their complaint and encouraging more crates to be introduced.... The crates will always be a terrible deal as it is gambling - all one can do is vote with their wallet. If you are against them, then you shouldn't even be concerned about them because you're not buying them, right?

I'm against them and have bought exactly zero. Hell, since everythimg is in those stupid boxes now I havent even shopped the store for costumes.

Ep1kMalware

jircris11 wrote: »

People need to get over the hate for crown creates. Every mmo that is b2p or f2p has them. If you don't like them then shut up and don't buy them. At least eso has no p2w Insta max lol or 80% of the game locked behind a pay wall like most mmos.

Game would be much better. Subscription based games have alway tended to have had better upkeeping and quality. fragmenting the dlcs and whatnot is reactionary to lazy console gamers. We did this, and now we are living with the consequences.

Urkraft

so...wow. this is all?

Ozstryker

"A fool and his money are easily parted"

You all know the chances... yet you all line up with waving your credit cards about, throwing your hard earned money at a game of chance!..... Then whine cos you didn't get a virtual reward that you somehow believe you are owed??

The money men at ZOS are laughing their assses off

Darkstorne

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

I see all these complaints and yet... often these are same people are ones buying the crates, thus invalidating their complaint and encouraging more crates to be introduced.... The crates will always be a terrible deal as it is gambling - all one can do is vote with their wallet. If you are against them, then you shouldn't even be concerned about them because you're not buying them, right?

I'm against them and have bought exactly zero. Hell, since everythimg is in those stupid boxes now I havent even shopped the store for costumes.

Yeah I've also found myself spending less in the Crown Store as a result. I can't justify $100-200 of Crown Crates just to get that one mount I like the look of, and I detest the idea of gambling for digital items with such insane amounts of money multiple times a year. Crates have led to less items being sold in the Store, so now I have over 10k Crowns with nothing to spend them on. I'd happily spend 3k on a Vitrine Wolf!

I guess we'll find out in a few months if we're in the minority or not. If they announce Crown Crates will continue next year, or we datamine next year's Crown Crate seasons, then we have our answer. Hopefully the whales didn't make up for the lack of Crown Store sales. We can abandon Crates altogether and just go back to lots of items each month in the Store, where we can buy exactly what we want for a fixed price. I'm worried that won't be the case though

randomkeyhits

Ozstryker wrote: »

"A fool and his money are easily parted"

You all know the chances... yet you all line up with waving your credit cards about, throwing your hard earned money at a game of chance!..... Then whine cos you didn't get a virtual reward that you somehow believe you are owed??

The money men at ZOS are laughing their assses off

Actually we don't know the chances, shame the game wasn't launched in China (though I know the published rates could end up different)

Ozstryker

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

"A fool and his money are easily parted"

You all know the chances... yet you all line up with waving your credit cards about, throwing your hard earned money at a game of chance!..... Then whine cos you didn't get a virtual reward that you somehow believe you are owed??

The money men at ZOS are laughing their assses off

Actually we don't know the chances, shame the game wasn't launched in China (though I know the published rates could end up different)

True we don't specifically know the chances, but we can be more pragmatic in the way we approach crates i.e ... the chances of winning the thing I want are extremely low. vs. The chances of being disappointed and ending up with a load of tat are very high...
if u choose to chance it still, then the results are on you!

Thing is, I've only ever opened the free box and got a dwemmer wolf mount, yet, I read someone opened 40 boxes and didn't win a single mount! Knowing percentages still wouldn't guarantee success!

@randomkeyhits not sure I follow the china reference, do they enforce companies to divulge the percentage of drop rates or something??

Elsonso

Ozstryker wrote: »

@randomkeyhits not sure I follow the china reference, do they enforce companies to divulge the percentage of drop rates or something??

That is what I have heard.

randomkeyhits

Ozstryker wrote: »

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

"A fool and his money are easily parted"

You all know the chances... yet you all line up with waving your credit cards about, throwing your hard earned money at a game of chance!..... Then whine cos you didn't get a virtual reward that you somehow believe you are owed??

The money men at ZOS are laughing their assses off

Actually we don't know the chances, shame the game wasn't launched in China (though I know the published rates could end up different)

True we don't specifically know the chances, but we can be more pragmatic in the way we approach crates i.e ... the chances of winning the thing I want are extremely low. vs. The chances of being disappointed and ending up with a load of tat are very high...
if u choose to chance it still, then the results are on you!

Thing is, I've only ever opened the free box and got a dwemmer wolf mount, yet, I read someone opened 40 boxes and didn't win a single mount! Knowing percentages still wouldn't guarantee success!

@randomkeyhits not sure I follow the china reference, do they enforce companies to divulge the percentage of drop rates or something??

As of May this year, companies who provide gaming services must publish them. Companies like Blizzard have already done so but I think some like Perfect World are being a little bit tardy.

Of course you can't guarantee a direct correlation with the western version but well... its pretty likely.

aisriyth_ESO

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

randomkeyhits wrote: »

Ozstryker wrote: »

"A fool and his money are easily parted"

You all know the chances... yet you all line up with waving your credit cards about, throwing your hard earned money at a game of chance!..... Then whine cos you didn't get a virtual reward that you somehow believe you are owed??

The money men at ZOS are laughing their assses off

Actually we don't know the chances, shame the game wasn't launched in China (though I know the published rates could end up different)

True we don't specifically know the chances, but we can be more pragmatic in the way we approach crates i.e ... the chances of winning the thing I want are extremely low. vs. The chances of being disappointed and ending up with a load of tat are very high...
if u choose to chance it still, then the results are on you!

Thing is, I've only ever opened the free box and got a dwemmer wolf mount, yet, I read someone opened 40 boxes and didn't win a single mount! Knowing percentages still wouldn't guarantee success!

@randomkeyhits not sure I follow the china reference, do they enforce companies to divulge the percentage of drop rates or something??

As of May this year, companies who provide gaming services must publish them. Companies like Blizzard have already done so but I think some like Perfect World are being a little bit tardy.

Of course you can't guarantee a direct correlation with the western version but well... its pretty likely.

Blizzard recently went a step farther and implemented a no duplicate policy as of like a week ago.

Elsonso

randomkeyhits wrote: »

As of May this year, companies who provide gaming services must publish them. Companies like Blizzard have already done so but I think some like Perfect World are being a little bit tardy.

Of course you can't guarantee a direct correlation with the western version but well... its pretty likely.

I expect that it is no small task to publish these.

I suspect that it is possible that they have only a vague idea what the odds are of getting a particular item from any random pull. Worse, I suspect that these numbers can change at any time, either deliberately or through some butterfly effect. Who knows how often a company might have to update the numbers. Weekly? Monthly? Would they have to establish testing just so they can detect that the drop rate has changed?

It might be easier to budget for paying the fines than to actually provide the numbers, and keep them accurate.

Prof_Bawbag

Chalinal wrote: »

Urkraft wrote: »

i am really upset about this situation, especially since i had the feeling, that when ZOS came up with crown jewels, it made many criticism vanish or get a bit more quiet, since it made the amount of money spent for an item countable by those jewels. bringing now this hidden items, looks to me, like ZOS wnats to bring its original concept again ,but this time people aren't shitstorming anymore - or at least not that much as back then. in this case, ZOS did a good job making its customers once more to idiots. I also think, this is highly disrespectfull towards the community, since ZOS, with stepping a bit back and bringing the jewels, made some kind of agreement with the ESO-Community about gambling.

I agree. Crown gems were ZO$'s compromise to the scam and horrid RNG that is gamble crates. We all said that crown crate - only items were not okay, there should be a way to still get them if you threw enough money. That is where the 1/3 value crown gems came in. You could exchange duplicated crap you didn't want want at a rate of 1/3 the crown gem cost on store. Now they are thinking they are being slick by reintroducing three mounts and a furnishing item that are crown crate - only and cannot be bought with crown gems. The drop rates on the three special mounts are even lower than the apex mounts. I am a mount and pet collector and have every mount and pet in game to date, prior to this season's crates. I'm not going to spend thousands of dollars to keep my collection complete trying for the three special mounts. Thank you ZO$ for all the money you are saving me by putting an end to my collection. You just bent yourself over for any collectors out there like myself, and I'm sure that collectors are a major crown store cash flow.

Keep slapping loyal players and crown store customers in the face and see how far that gets. The amount of crown-purchased home "modifications" is on the rise as well from what I see. Changes to the Craglorn Cavern and other homes that are reducing available space that was originally purchased. Honestly, what the hell happened? When I first started the game, on day one, there were real person ticket responses, not automated robot replies that don't even relate to your issue. There was also a love for the community by developers and they listened to the community and brought ideas into the game that the community suggested or liked and passed on those they did not. Now it is all about the money, crown store, and crown crates. Really disheartening from how it began. Maybe they will see the light again. Customer satisfaction should be paramount in the entertainment industry. Happy customers = paying customers and word of mouth spreading. Also getting friends and family to join which means more players and money. No one is going to recommend a game that is turning to greed.

Don't forget the 3 in 1crafting research scroll. That too is hidden behind rng with no way to purchase it. People seem to be focusing on all the big stuff, but there are other smaller items hidden away too.

randomkeyhits

lordrichter wrote: »

randomkeyhits wrote: »

As of May this year, companies who provide gaming services must publish them. Companies like Blizzard have already done so but I think some like Perfect World are being a little bit tardy.

Of course you can't guarantee a direct correlation with the western version but well... its pretty likely.

I expect that it is no small task to publish these.

I suspect that it is possible that they have only a vague idea what the odds are of getting a particular item from any random pull. Worse, I suspect that these numbers can change at any time, either deliberately or through some butterfly effect. Who knows how often a company might have to update the numbers. Weekly? Monthly? Would they have to establish testing just so they can detect that the drop rate has changed?

It might be easier to budget for paying the fines than to actually provide the numbers, and keep them accurate.

It is actually extremely simple.

Any intelligent developer uses loot tables and the percentage (weighted) chance of each item in the table to drop, so you just have to print out the table. A lazy developer might hard code the weightings into the code but all it takes then is to cut and paste the relevant section and spend a few minutes tidying it up for publishing.

Don't forget the requirement is not for all loot tables in the game but only for those associated with the gambling mechanism and real cash.

For any half way competent company it should take less than 30 minutes tops to get the data out and maybe a week to pass it by legal & marketing to cover any rear anatomy portions.

Elsonso

randomkeyhits wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

randomkeyhits wrote: »

As of May this year, companies who provide gaming services must publish them. Companies like Blizzard have already done so but I think some like Perfect World are being a little bit tardy.

Of course you can't guarantee a direct correlation with the western version but well... its pretty likely.

I expect that it is no small task to publish these.

I suspect that it is possible that they have only a vague idea what the odds are of getting a particular item from any random pull. Worse, I suspect that these numbers can change at any time, either deliberately or through some butterfly effect. Who knows how often a company might have to update the numbers. Weekly? Monthly? Would they have to establish testing just so they can detect that the drop rate has changed?

It might be easier to budget for paying the fines than to actually provide the numbers, and keep them accurate.

It is actually extremely simple.

Any intelligent developer uses loot tables and the percentage (weighted) chance of each item in the table to drop, so you just have to print out the table. A lazy developer might hard code the weightings into the code but all it takes then is to cut and paste the relevant section and spend a few minutes tidying it up for publishing.

Don't forget the requirement is not for all loot tables in the game but only for those associated with the gambling mechanism and real cash.

For any half way competent company it should take less than 30 minutes tops to get the data out and maybe a week to pass it by legal & marketing to cover any rear anatomy portions.

So, we are in complete agreement.

aisriyth_ESO

Honestly, at this point i am reluctant to stop at transparent odds. I want ZoS to realize locking certain items out of the gem store is bad. I don't care if the odds are 1%, 5% or even 10% I rather know given enough gems i can get said item 100% then buy x amount of crates and still never have that guarantee.

The conversion of duplicates sucks enough as is, might as well make the ultra-apex items cost maybe 600 gems. That way they maintain their status symbol.

Fusiondk

I agree just like most state lotteries odds should always be divulged if the playerbase has no means of acquiring them. What I can't get on board with is all this hate at the crate system. It's a lottery and I see two complaints here:

1) The lottery shouldn't exist at all. Ok, that's just your opinion. Everything isn't free. Just because you paid for the game and even if you sub for it you're entitled to absolutely additional not outlined in the terms of your purchase. That's like going to Toys'R'us, buying an action figure with included parts, and expecting any future additional parts to be provided because you purchased the original figure at no additional cost. We call that communist. That is not how most of the world works financially.

2) No issue with buying the crates as long as you can acquire a currency to purchase the said "jack pot" items. Again that doesn't really make sense. That's like saying well if I purchase 10 lotto tickets a week for 20 years I should be able to acquire markers that ensure I will win the mega million jackpot at some preordained time.

It's gambling. Yes there are cool things locked behind it. It's just a lottery system, and it doesn't make a corporation some sort of hideous villian for incorporating it. It makes them capitalists.

Stopnaggin

For all the told you so and it's gambling people, we know it's gambling. That isn't the point of the discussion. With the way things were before there was a set amount you would spend and still be able to obtain the items you wanted. This has been taken away. I have no problem with gambling, I can even enjoy it from time to time. That's not the issue at hand.

For those that say it's just cosmetic, while true some people like those cosmetics to finish a character. So they are no less imporant to those people than getting the right gear. I collected everything senche, up to this point, because I like them, it adds to my game experience. Whether I spent $10 or $100 to get them, wasn't my issue. The fact that I no longer have a safety net at the bottom to obtain said items is the issue.

People will still defend the crates and that's fine, I used to be one of those, but there comes a point where the relationship becomes too one sided to continue. While ZOS is a business, and they need to make money, they are in fact stretching their customers patience. If I can flip the script about this latest deal, than others will likely feel the same. Everyone has their breaking point and it would be in their best interest to stop pushing the boundries. Been my experience that business that keep pushing the limits like this eventually lose their customer base.

Bombashaman

"Hidden 'Special' Crown Crate Mounts "

"Special"?

Troneon

For every person with some common sense and understand how ZOS is screwing them for $$$$ there are 10 people who are suckers with too much money....

The game has been heading worse and worse for a long time now with NO ETA on fixing half the broken things in the game, some of which been bugged or broken for months if not years.

From day one ZOS was greedy as hell. My prediction.

They know ESO won't last much more than another year maybe two, they will milk the crap out of it until death and bleed it dry with gambling micro-transactions, fake expansion DLC's and other loop holes to charge more for the same crap....while ignoring the complaints about bugs, performance, broken tools etc etc that never get fixed, or are fixed and then broken again....

Troneon

Jamini wrote: »

I don't know why people are surprised by this.

Don't buy clown crates. Don't support toxic marketing practices.

Everyone who supported crown crates: You were warned. You did not listen.

THIS ^^

SydneyGrey

The special mounts you can't purchase with gems are a d*** move, in my opinion.
I'm guessing there's probably only a 1% chance of getting one. The issue is that even if you bought literally 1,000 crates, the chance never goes up no matter how many you buy. It would be insane to keep buying more and more crates in the hope of getting one, just to have that 1% chance each time. Sorry, but frustrating your customers does not get you more customers. I can't imagine why they thought this would be a good idea, and I'm speaking as one who has bought crown crates.
Luckily I have no interest in these special mounts this time around.

Elsonso

SydneyGrey wrote: »

The special mounts you can't purchase with gems are a d*** move, in my opinion.
I'm guessing there's probably only a 1% chance of getting one.

No, it is less than 1% according to data collection.

Edit:

According to Enodoc's spreadsheet, the odds of getting the Adamant Dwarven Horse is 1 in 272 crates. Admittedly, sample size is only 543.

Oddly enough, the CDC says that this is the same as the odds of a person dying as the result of a car accident. I have no idea what that means, but Google does give the most interesting search results.