Maintenance for the week of December 16:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 16
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – December 16
• NA megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 4:00AM EST (9:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EST (17:00 UTC)
• EU megaservers for patch maintenance – December 17, 9:00 UTC (4:00AM EST) - 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
Vampires and Game Feel
ParaNostram
✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
✭✭
I was discussing with a friend of mine today the biggest flaw when it comes to vampires on ESO, they don't really feel rewarding to play. You don't feel like you're playing as a vampire, just playing as something with a few passives that tweak your stats a bit. Honestly, vampirism needs another overhaul. The active skills are rather useless and the passives don't really do enough to change somebody's playstyle. With werewolves your entire playstyle is changed and it feels fun and interesting. How could we get vampires to a similar level of fun and interesting while combatting the present meta of everybody being a vampire to have access to a few passives? Here are my thoughts.
Edit: For clarification, the following two sections are two different ideas as to how vampires can achieve better game feel.
Make the passives more extreme
Essentially, make the passives extreme to encourage a different style of gameplay. Example, take the savage feeding passive (a passive that nobody uses) and make it so your attacks gain lifesteal or vampiric abilities have a chance to apply major lifesteal or maybe just any ability has a change, just as an example for one passive. For added effect, continue to make the passives synergize with vampiric actives, or add more buffs. You can take from the lore, make vampires take less physical damage as just another idea as in previous games like Morrowind they had a defense against normal weapons. If we're going to have passives define the Vampire, make them interesting at least, however (and here's the kicker...)
The negative passives//debuffs need to be more extreme. Make people think twice about whether or not for their build and their playstyle would benefit from being a vampire. Make fire a real pain in the undead rear end again, make fighter's guild abilities REALLY HURT when you're a vampire. I think it would be interesting as, for example, to couple with the suggestion of lifestealing and such, making it so you have to rely on said lifesteal to be able to actually get proper healing done to yourself. Suddenly, you're playing like a vampire, running away from fire in fear and stealing life back from your enemies while hoping somebody doesn't drop some Fighters Guild level pain on your day. That's just one avenue that could be gone down.
Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate
People have been asking for this option for quite a while and again there's plenty to work with in the lore. Imagine the fun you could have, like a spell that does more damage the lower your health is. Imagine vampiric seduction or domination from the games being turned into an expensive ranged stun that heals you for the longer they remain stunned (there are spells like that in the game already). There's so much that could be done with just a little bit of imagination. We can make vampire have a unique playstyle easily.
In conclusion...
I'm not a game designer, but I am an avid gamer. I've played every TES game since Morrowind and ultimately believe there is no substitute for what's just good fun. I find playing vampires in games to be fun, so long as I feel like I'm playing a vampire. I haven't felt that way on ESO for quite a while, more like a character with additional regen and strange washed out tattoos.
Edited by ParaNostram on June 21, 2017 11:57PM Edit: For clarification, the following two sections are two different ideas as to how vampires can achieve better game feel.
Make the passives more extreme
Essentially, make the passives extreme to encourage a different style of gameplay. Example, take the savage feeding passive (a passive that nobody uses) and make it so your attacks gain lifesteal or vampiric abilities have a chance to apply major lifesteal or maybe just any ability has a change, just as an example for one passive. For added effect, continue to make the passives synergize with vampiric actives, or add more buffs. You can take from the lore, make vampires take less physical damage as just another idea as in previous games like Morrowind they had a defense against normal weapons. If we're going to have passives define the Vampire, make them interesting at least, however (and here's the kicker...)
The negative passives//debuffs need to be more extreme. Make people think twice about whether or not for their build and their playstyle would benefit from being a vampire. Make fire a real pain in the undead rear end again, make fighter's guild abilities REALLY HURT when you're a vampire. I think it would be interesting as, for example, to couple with the suggestion of lifestealing and such, making it so you have to rely on said lifesteal to be able to actually get proper healing done to yourself. Suddenly, you're playing like a vampire, running away from fire in fear and stealing life back from your enemies while hoping somebody doesn't drop some Fighters Guild level pain on your day. That's just one avenue that could be gone down.
Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate
People have been asking for this option for quite a while and again there's plenty to work with in the lore. Imagine the fun you could have, like a spell that does more damage the lower your health is. Imagine vampiric seduction or domination from the games being turned into an expensive ranged stun that heals you for the longer they remain stunned (there are spells like that in the game already). There's so much that could be done with just a little bit of imagination. We can make vampire have a unique playstyle easily.
In conclusion...
I'm not a game designer, but I am an avid gamer. I've played every TES game since Morrowind and ultimately believe there is no substitute for what's just good fun. I find playing vampires in games to be fun, so long as I feel like I'm playing a vampire. I haven't felt that way on ESO for quite a while, more like a character with additional regen and strange washed out tattoos.
"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm
6
-
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.0 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire forms, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
Edit: I autoread vampire lord when I saw the word transform followed by vampire, my mistake, but you will note I never once used the word transform in the original post.Edited by ParaNostram on June 21, 2017 11:48PM"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Give us fangs . That would be a big difference for starters . I'm pretty sure that's the major optical reason players look like zombies .10 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.0 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
Where did "vampire lords" come from?"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
Edit: I also mentioned the vital importance of if we have passives be what defines the vampire to make the negative passives more extreme. I spent most of the post talking about how we could make vampires feel like vampires letting passives define the character like the present model does.Edited by ParaNostram on June 21, 2017 11:45PM"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
0 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭You know to each his own; I play a Vampire themed character (and even use the Vampire Lord 5 piece set) and it rocks...
I feel like I feed for power (that's essentially what I do on a regular basis with Invigorating Drain to build Ultimate) and Devouring Swarm is quite powerful with the right complimentary armor sets and loadout...
Elusive Mist is one of the best Defensive abilities in the game and the Vampiric Passives rock (no Movement Penalty Stealth is awesome)...
I am loving it...
I do wish that they'd replace the reduced Spell Cost of the 5th piece bonus of the Vampire Lord gear with an increase to the duration of Vampiric Abilities instead (maybe add a sec or two to the duration of Devouring Swarm, Invigorating Drain, and Elusive Mist as the 5th piece bonus)...
In my honest opinion, this would off set us Vampires having such a small number of abilities to work with...
Edited by TheDoomsdayMonster on June 21, 2017 11:49PMUnyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s2 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
"That's just one avenue that could be gone down." I separated the post into two sections, two different ideas as to how vampires could be adjusted for better game feel, one section being just adjusting the passives and that's it. The other section being leaving the passives alone and adding actives.
The very first line of the next section though is as follows.
"People have been asking for this option for quite a while and again there's plenty to work with in the lore."
The word option implies a choice, I was offering two different models. I wasn't suggesting both but hey why not both while we're at that? What's wrong with that? I wasn't suggesting that but like now that you have me thinking it I see nothing wrong with reworking the passives AND filling out the skill tree but it might be superfluous as the desired goal can be achieved by just one of the two options.
Now then I'm tired of having my words nitpicked at by somebody who isn't reading what I'm actually saying. I'm open to discussion, but you're just not even on the same page as I am. You're inferring so much and it's frustrating."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm1 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭Only complaint I have about vamps is that lame animation when they suck blood...
They've got the Blade of Woe animations as a proof of concept; give us an actual bloodsucking animation."As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?6 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. A part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
Edited by idk on June 22, 2017 12:13AM1 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.Edited by ParaNostram on June 22, 2017 12:22AM"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Edited by idk on June 22, 2017 12:39AM2 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
They need to take MORE damage than they already do, like they used to. Of course you can't just nerf it into the ground and expect people to be happy with so the only way in which you can make vampire downsides more extreme is if you enhance the positive aspects as well. Right now we're flooded with vampires because there is no real downside. I'm not arguing for a buff, I'm arguing for a buff and a nerf, I'm arguing for vampires to be taken to a place where people have to think twice whether or not they want to be one.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Also, yes, I am asking for an overall reduction in the usefullness of vampirism. It's too applicable to any build and that's why almost every build runs it. If you want ot play as a werewolf, you build for it and you're mindful of whether or not it's even worth it to be one. Vampires it's practically a no brainer, free regen as you said."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.
Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.
That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.
WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.1 -
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭Giles is correct about the downsides to being a Vampire (especially one that's always in Stage 4 no matter what like myself); the downsides are very significant and must be planned around so that your build can be successful...
I run a 5 Light, 1 Medium, 1 Heavy build and combined with the Fire vulnerability and the impact that Fighters Guild abilities have against me, I practically have no choice but to wear the Mighty Chudan Monster Set to get my defenses to an acceptable level...
Yes, there are a lot of Vampires running around ingame due largely to the great passives it offers, but make no mistake, the drawbacks are very significant and can be crippling if they arent dealt with carefully...Edited by TheDoomsdayMonster on June 22, 2017 1:06AMUnyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s0 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.
Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.
That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.
WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.
I did see that there is increased damage taken from fighters guild abilities and fire abilities, we just disagree as to whether or not the damage is enough. I think it should be made more severe. However you can't just make the downside more severe without giving vampire players something for it. I argue that the fact that vampires are running around everywhere is evidence that the passives are not extreme enough. Again, free regen.
I personally feel as though vampires would be better designed if you had to play to their strengths, if you had to adjust your build to account for being a vampire.Edited by ParaNostram on June 22, 2017 1:08AM"Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.
Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.
That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.
WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.
I did see that there is increased damage taken from fighters guild abilities and fire abilities, we just disagree as to whether or not the damage is enough. I think it should be made more severe. However you can't just make the downside more severe without giving vampire players something for it. I argue that the fact that vampires are running around everywhere is evidence that the passives are not extreme enough. Again, free regen.
I personally feel as though vampires would be better designed if you had to play to their strengths, if you had to adjust your build to account for being a vampire.
Why don't we make it 50% fire vulnerability. That sound great. Make it so only the most skilled players can even consider being a vampire. That is how ludicrous the opinion you are presenting is.
25% FULL TIME fire vulnerability is significant. Extremely significant for a great many players. The most skilled can avoid damage pretty good, but the average player to a lesser degree.
'
Increasing the fire damage would put vampirism out of reach of most players in the game.
This conversation is over. The discussion is pointless since Zos will not be increasing fire vulnerability further. Just that simple.
Good Day.Edited by idk on June 22, 2017 1:21AM1 -
Although I would like to see more active abilities for the vampire, when using what it does have right, you can clearly see the solid benefits of being a vampire. I have no complaints0
-
TheDoomsdayMonster✭✭✭✭✭@ParaNostram
Keep in mind how common Fire damage is in this game (wether it be PvP or PvE); we are hit with it on a regular basis and if you aren't built correctly, it hurts bad...
My current build is really strong and has proven itself to be very effective (especially in PvP), but the Fire Weakness takes it toll sometimes...
Magicka Dragonknights are the one foe that I do not want to fight one on one due to my Fire Weakness; bring on anyone else, but characters that have strong Fire attacks are very effective against me...
I honestly think the Pro's and Con's of being a Vampire are balanced; we don't need anymore weakness than we already have...Unyeilding Bias
PSN TheLordofMurder
PS4 NA
Magicka Templar
DC
The Combat Physician: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKaqUVm_8JE&t=142s1 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.
Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.
That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.
WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.
I did see that there is increased damage taken from fighters guild abilities and fire abilities, we just disagree as to whether or not the damage is enough. I think it should be made more severe. However you can't just make the downside more severe without giving vampire players something for it. I argue that the fact that vampires are running around everywhere is evidence that the passives are not extreme enough. Again, free regen.
I personally feel as though vampires would be better designed if you had to play to their strengths, if you had to adjust your build to account for being a vampire.
Why don't we make it 50% fire vulnerability. That sound great. Make it so only the most skilled players can even consider being a vampire. That is how ludicrous the opinion you are presenting is.
25% FULL TIME fire vulnerability is significant. Extremely significant for a great many players. The most skilled can avoid damage pretty good, but the average player to a lesser degree.
'
Increasing the fire damage would put vampirism out of reach of most players in the game.
This conversation is over. The discussion is pointless since Zos will not be increasing fire vulnerability further. Just that simple.
Good Day.
*deep breath and sigh* That's why I said there would have to be some buffs as well to make people consider playing as a vampire in spite of the obviously difficult to overcome downside which goes back to my original point. Redesign vampires to make it so you have to play like a vampire to survive as a vampire. Does that mean vampirism won't be viable for some content? Yes. That's how it used to be. Werewolves aren't viable for all content. The solution is already in the game anyways, when you are fully fed you don't take any extra fire damage.TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »
Keep in mind how common Fire damage is in this game (wether it be PvP or PvE); we are hit with it on a regular basis and if you aren't built correctly, it hurts bad...
My current build is really strong and has proven itself to be very effective (especially in PvP), but the Fire Weakness takes it toll sometimes...
Magicka Dragonknights are the one foe that I do not want to fight one on one due to my Fire Weakness; bring on anyone else, but characters that have strong Fire attacks are very effective against me...
I honestly think the Pro's and Con's of being a Vampire are balanced; we don't need anymore weakness than we already have...
I respect and understand how you feel there and why you've come to the opinion that you have. I disagree, I think the prevalence of vampires is evidence that the pros and cons are not balanced, but both of our opinions are founded on our observations in game and our reaction to said observations. All in all though, I respect your opinion and thank you for voicing it."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »@ParaNostram
Keep in mind how common Fire damage is in this game (wether it be PvP or PvE); we are hit with it on a regular basis and if you aren't built correctly, it hurts bad...
My current build is really strong and has proven itself to be very effective (especially in PvP), but the Fire Weakness takes it toll sometimes...
Magicka Dragonknights are the one foe that I do not want to fight one on one due to my Fire Weakness; bring on anyone else, but characters that have strong Fire attacks are very effective against me...
I honestly think the Pro's and Con's of being a Vampire are balanced; we don't need anymore weakness than we already have...
Plus AA, HRC, HoF, CoA, DSA, MA. Just to name a few of the more challenging PvE instances and that is a significant number of them.ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.
Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.
That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.
WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.
I did see that there is increased damage taken from fighters guild abilities and fire abilities, we just disagree as to whether or not the damage is enough. I think it should be made more severe. However you can't just make the downside more severe without giving vampire players something for it. I argue that the fact that vampires are running around everywhere is evidence that the passives are not extreme enough. Again, free regen.
I personally feel as though vampires would be better designed if you had to play to their strengths, if you had to adjust your build to account for being a vampire.
Why don't we make it 50% fire vulnerability. That sound great. Make it so only the most skilled players can even consider being a vampire. That is how ludicrous the opinion you are presenting is.
25% FULL TIME fire vulnerability is significant. Extremely significant for a great many players. The most skilled can avoid damage pretty good, but the average player to a lesser degree.
'
Increasing the fire damage would put vampirism out of reach of most players in the game.
This conversation is over. The discussion is pointless since Zos will not be increasing fire vulnerability further. Just that simple.
Good Day.
*deep breath and sigh* That's why I said there would have to be some buffs as well to make people consider playing as a vampire in spite of the obviously difficult to overcome downside which goes back to my original point. Redesign vampires to make it so you have to play like a vampire to survive as a vampire. Does that mean vampirism won't be viable for some content? Yes. That's how it used to be. Werewolves aren't viable for all content. The solution is already in the game anyways, when you are fully fed you don't take any extra fire damage.
Logic is not sound.
You want more fire damage yet say it is moot since players can merely use Double Bloody Mara to negate the effects. Basically, this will lock out a significant part of the player base and MOST CERTAINY mean no new player could handle being a vampire.
Really sound idea there. Screw over the new players big time.
It is irrelevant. Few agree with you, especially this extreme view of vampires. Probably the most extreme view yet.
0 -
ParaNostram✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »@ParaNostram
Keep in mind how common Fire damage is in this game (wether it be PvP or PvE); we are hit with it on a regular basis and if you aren't built correctly, it hurts bad...
My current build is really strong and has proven itself to be very effective (especially in PvP), but the Fire Weakness takes it toll sometimes...
Magicka Dragonknights are the one foe that I do not want to fight one on one due to my Fire Weakness; bring on anyone else, but characters that have strong Fire attacks are very effective against me...
I honestly think the Pro's and Con's of being a Vampire are balanced; we don't need anymore weakness than we already have...
Plus AA, HRC, HoF, CoA, DSA, MA. Just to name a few of the more challenging PvE instances and that is a significant number of them.ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.
Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.
That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.
WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.
I did see that there is increased damage taken from fighters guild abilities and fire abilities, we just disagree as to whether or not the damage is enough. I think it should be made more severe. However you can't just make the downside more severe without giving vampire players something for it. I argue that the fact that vampires are running around everywhere is evidence that the passives are not extreme enough. Again, free regen.
I personally feel as though vampires would be better designed if you had to play to their strengths, if you had to adjust your build to account for being a vampire.
Why don't we make it 50% fire vulnerability. That sound great. Make it so only the most skilled players can even consider being a vampire. That is how ludicrous the opinion you are presenting is.
25% FULL TIME fire vulnerability is significant. Extremely significant for a great many players. The most skilled can avoid damage pretty good, but the average player to a lesser degree.
'
Increasing the fire damage would put vampirism out of reach of most players in the game.
This conversation is over. The discussion is pointless since Zos will not be increasing fire vulnerability further. Just that simple.
Good Day.
*deep breath and sigh* That's why I said there would have to be some buffs as well to make people consider playing as a vampire in spite of the obviously difficult to overcome downside which goes back to my original point. Redesign vampires to make it so you have to play like a vampire to survive as a vampire. Does that mean vampirism won't be viable for some content? Yes. That's how it used to be. Werewolves aren't viable for all content. The solution is already in the game anyways, when you are fully fed you don't take any extra fire damage.
Logic is not sound.
You want more fire damage yet say it is moot since players can merely use Double Bloody Mara to negate the effects. Basically, this will lock out a significant part of the player base and MOST CERTAINY mean no new player could handle being a vampire.
Really sound idea there. Screw over the new players big time.
It is irrelevant. Few agree with you, especially this extreme view of vampires. Probably the most extreme view yet.
My logic is plenty sound and has been consistent since the start. You've been jumping from thing to thing when one point of yours gets shot down you find something else yet you say my logic isn't sound? First it's transformations I never mentioned, then it's a misinterpretation of what I was asking for, then commentary on how increased fire damage would lock players out of content which is false, and now you have blatant argumentum ad populum fallacy mixed with some "think of the new players!"
There are a thousand and one much more complicated aspects of the game that would confuse and deter new players. Do you know how many hours I've spent explaining crafting systems to new players? Besides that's getting off of my main point which we can disagree on all you like. My main point is this, the current system through sizeable buffs without any debuffs of consequence leads to most players regardless of build becoming vampires without really having to adjust their build nor play style to accommodate vampirism. After all, why turn down free regen?
I have offered what I think to be solutions but I could very well be wrong, as I said I am not an expert in game design. Vampirism shouldn't be something everyone wants to be, it should be challenging and rewarding. Others have made arguments on how vampirism already is like that but I personally feel as though it has room to grow (again, citing the fact that such a disproportionate portion of the player population plays as vampires without ever having to alter their build to accommodate it)."Your mistake is you begged for your life, not for mercy. I will show you there are many fates worse than death."
Para Nostram
Bosmer Sorceress
Witch of Evermore
"Death is a privilege that can be denied by it's learned scholars."
Order of the Black Worm0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »@ParaNostram
Keep in mind how common Fire damage is in this game (wether it be PvP or PvE); we are hit with it on a regular basis and if you aren't built correctly, it hurts bad...
My current build is really strong and has proven itself to be very effective (especially in PvP), but the Fire Weakness takes it toll sometimes...
Magicka Dragonknights are the one foe that I do not want to fight one on one due to my Fire Weakness; bring on anyone else, but characters that have strong Fire attacks are very effective against me...
I honestly think the Pro's and Con's of being a Vampire are balanced; we don't need anymore weakness than we already have...
Plus AA, HRC, HoF, CoA, DSA, MA. Just to name a few of the more challenging PvE instances and that is a significant number of them.ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »ParaNostram wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?
That is what you are describing, making it like WW.
I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.
You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.
If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.
I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.
You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.
Did you read your OP?
Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.
It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.
Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.
Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.
The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.
While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.
It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.
If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)
I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.
On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.
Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.- Basically Free Regen.
- Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
- No sneak penalty
This does change how people play their builds.
You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.
The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.
The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.
Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.
Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.
Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.
Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.
Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.
Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.
That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.
WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.
I did see that there is increased damage taken from fighters guild abilities and fire abilities, we just disagree as to whether or not the damage is enough. I think it should be made more severe. However you can't just make the downside more severe without giving vampire players something for it. I argue that the fact that vampires are running around everywhere is evidence that the passives are not extreme enough. Again, free regen.
I personally feel as though vampires would be better designed if you had to play to their strengths, if you had to adjust your build to account for being a vampire.
Why don't we make it 50% fire vulnerability. That sound great. Make it so only the most skilled players can even consider being a vampire. That is how ludicrous the opinion you are presenting is.
25% FULL TIME fire vulnerability is significant. Extremely significant for a great many players. The most skilled can avoid damage pretty good, but the average player to a lesser degree.
'
Increasing the fire damage would put vampirism out of reach of most players in the game.
This conversation is over. The discussion is pointless since Zos will not be increasing fire vulnerability further. Just that simple.
Good Day.
*deep breath and sigh* That's why I said there would have to be some buffs as well to make people consider playing as a vampire in spite of the obviously difficult to overcome downside which goes back to my original point. Redesign vampires to make it so you have to play like a vampire to survive as a vampire. Does that mean vampirism won't be viable for some content? Yes. That's how it used to be. Werewolves aren't viable for all content. The solution is already in the game anyways, when you are fully fed you don't take any extra fire damage.
Logic is not sound.
You want more fire damage yet say it is moot since players can merely use Double Bloody Mara to negate the effects. Basically, this will lock out a significant part of the player base and MOST CERTAINY mean no new player could handle being a vampire.
Really sound idea there. Screw over the new players big time.
It is irrelevant. Few agree with you, especially this extreme view of vampires. Probably the most extreme view yet.
My logic is plenty sound and has been consistent since the start. You've been jumping from thing to thing when one point of yours gets shot down you find something else yet you say my logic isn't sound? First it's transformations I never mentioned, then it's a misinterpretation of what I was asking for, then commentary on how increased fire damage would lock players out of content which is false, and now you have blatant argumentum ad populum fallacy mixed with some "think of the new players!"
There are a thousand and one much more complicated aspects of the game that would confuse and deter new players. Do you know how many hours I've spent explaining crafting systems to new players? Besides that's getting off of my main point which we can disagree on all you like. My main point is this, the current system through sizeable buffs without any debuffs of consequence leads to most players regardless of build becoming vampires without really having to adjust their build nor play style to accommodate vampirism. After all, why turn down free regen?
I have offered what I think to be solutions but I could very well be wrong, as I said I am not an expert in game design. Vampirism shouldn't be something everyone wants to be, it should be challenging and rewarding. Others have made arguments on how vampirism already is like that but I personally feel as though it has room to grow (again, citing the fact that such a disproportionate portion of the player population plays as vampires without ever having to alter their build to accommodate it).
Your OP lacked clarity which is why I hit a couple points were off the mark from what you are attempting to state. In fact, you have failed to even suggest the degree of some of your changes you suggest.
It took you several replies to make clear what you are attempting to suggest.
To drive home the point of the strength of your idea, not a single person posted support for it in this thread. Not one. The closest to support was a better feeding animation.
Case closed.
Edited by idk on June 22, 2017 5:31AM0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I just want to be able to hide vampirism. Vampires are supposed to be sexy, not look like meth heads.
What I want my vampire to look like:
What they actually look like:
Edited by MLGProPlayer on June 22, 2017 5:38AM2 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I have been a vampire so long I barely remember what my character actually looks like. I have no complaints. I know fighting a DK in PvP will get my ass whooped when all he uses are fire attacks and I know I hardly use any real vampire skill except the drain ability once in a while.
But,
- I hate it that the feeding has the same execute as blade of woe and sometimes the NPC moves a bit and blade of woe turns to feed.
- I don't like that I do not have fangs, but this vampiric disease is another form of strain so it's not your common TES vampire. So sunlight does not hurt, no fangs, people like you etc.
- I wish feeding would still perma-stun enemies in PvP during the feeding because it was hilarious.
- I wish I could infect people in PvP with vampirism by feeding on them and they instantly become stage 1 vampires
- I also wish if werewolves devour an enemy player he also becomes a WW.
- I wish there was a vampiric enclave in Cyrodill where vampires from all factions can come together and have a friendly drink.٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."1 -
Ch4mpTW✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rohamad_Ali wrote: »Give us fangs . That would be a big difference for starters . I'm pretty sure that's the major optical reason players look like zombies .
@Rohamad_Ali You're a khajiit, however. You already have fangs.
But on a serious note, I definitely agree with this. Our characters currently look like a mixture between a zombie and drug addict. And honestly, vampires don't really look like that (for the most part). They should look beast-like when at Stage 4, and in prior stages more and more vampiric.Edited by Ch4mpTW on June 22, 2017 6:40AM1
