Vampires and Game Feel

dodgehopper_ESO

I recommend as well that they should create a guild/holy-order/whatever that brings the pain to Vampires and Werewolves.

Knootewoot

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I recommend as well that they should create a guild/holy-order/whatever that brings the pain to Vampires and Werewolves.

That would be the Tribunal Temple. In de old morrowind game there where quests to get rid of necromancers and vampires.

Rohamad_Ali

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Give us fangs . That would be a big difference for starters . I'm pretty sure that's the major optical reason players look like zombies .

@Rohamad_Ali You're a khajiit, however. You already have fangs.

But on a serious note, I definitely agree with this. Our characters currently look like a mixture between a zombie and drug addict. And honestly, vampires don't really look like that (for the most part). They should look beast-like when at Stage 4, and in prior stages more and more vampiric.

@Ch4mpTW My teeth only shows when I emote but they should be long fangs like on my Skyrim Rohamad-Ali . One little detail would make a distinction between zombie and vampires .




Also Vampire eyes should glow at stage four not be milky like in this online version . That would be a second great step in separating the appearance from zombies .

bloodthirstyvampire

ParaNostram wrote: »

Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate

People have been asking for this option for quite a while and again there's plenty to work with in the lore. Imagine the fun you could have, like a spell that does more damage the lower your health is. Imagine vampiric seduction or domination from the games being turned into an expensive ranged stun that heals you for the longer they remain stunned (there are spells like that in the game already). There's so much that could be done with just a little bit of imagination. We can make vampire have a unique playstyle easily.

give that man a thrall

Bombashaman

More extreme passives, yes.

PS4_ZeColmeia

My suggestion for a long time is to change savage feeding to a new passive that moves all skills to use health. This gives a unique play you risk life by casting any skill but also consolidate all skills to use a single resource pool. You could then give other ranks to some of the passives that are only accessible by taking this passive.

Seriously, who takes savage feeding?

ParaNostram

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

TheDoomsdayMonster wrote: »

@ParaNostram

Keep in mind how common Fire damage is in this game (wether it be PvP or PvE); we are hit with it on a regular basis and if you aren't built correctly, it hurts bad...

My current build is really strong and has proven itself to be very effective (especially in PvP), but the Fire Weakness takes it toll sometimes...

Magicka Dragonknights are the one foe that I do not want to fight one on one due to my Fire Weakness; bring on anyone else, but characters that have strong Fire attacks are very effective against me...

I honestly think the Pro's and Con's of being a Vampire are balanced; we don't need anymore weakness than we already have...

Plus AA, HRC, HoF, CoA, DSA, MA. Just to name a few of the more challenging PvE instances and that is a significant number of them.

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

ParaNostram wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

So you want us in human form most of the time, getting no benefit from being a vampire, and have an ultimate we use merely to transform us into vampire form and have 5 skills that are the only skills we can use during the transformation period?

That is what you are describing, making it like WW.

I never once mentioned transforming nor vampire lords, I literally was not saying that at all? I don't know where you got that from.

You did state that with WWs your entire playstyle is changed. So you did make that comparison regardless if you meant to or not.

If you think we are going to get 5 skills like a WW and have improved stats full time your mistaken. That is having your cake and eating it to. Nice to dream I suppose.

I offered a suggestion that wasn't adding abilities? I... What? Did you read my post at all or did you just stop when I mentioned werewolves? I was literally just saying with that part that when you play as a werewolf you feel like a werewolf that's all.

You stated in bold text Fill out the skill line, 5 actives and 1 ultimate. It was kind of hard to miss.

Did you read your OP?

Yes, that was a seperate section, read the line before it.

It was part of your post. The only part in bold. The part you formatted to bring our attention to. Then you seem to back peddle when I mention it.

Maybe I read it to fast, but your OP seems to ask for both stronger passives and skills along with more skills. While you do state with the 5 skills part people have been asking for this option for a long time, you do not make it clear that you are speaking of two different options.

Further, vamps probably outnumber WWs in competitive play due to the robust passives it has already.

The regen, damage reduction are great for PvE and PvP.
Sneak speed is a plus in PvP.
Drain Essence, especially the Invigorating Drain is a great skill. Used by some tanks and others. Fantastic life stealing heal.
Mist form has been used, especially Elusive Mist in PvP. Great escape that reduces damage taken.
Devouring Swarm has been a popular ultimate. LOL, I used to use it as part of a build to pawn groups in PvP. When my health dropped I used it, gained health and did more damage to them. They recently changed the other morph to make it more attractive, not sure how that worked out.

While the skills may not fit your playstyle, they are used.

It was bolded because it was the theme of the idea the title of the idea what the idea that follows, the entire next paragraph summarized into one single sentence I wasn't back peddling. Stop accusing me of things and stop putting words in my mouth.

If you want to disagree with my opinions here that's fine please disagree and let's have a discussion. Stop accusing me of things! I edited the post for clarification okay? Can we move past that? Can we discuss what I actually said? If we can stick to the points from here on in I'll be happy to keep responding but not if it's arguing over what I said (I know what I said I said it)

I addressed the robust passives in my post that is a fair point. However, the problem is the passives are good enough to use but there aren't really any downsides for them. Health regen being dropped is, eh, okay. Fire damage? Not really that much of a problem with how the undeath passive works (some even saying that you are in a sense more resistent to being killed by vampire than a non vampire but I haven't tested that personally). Everyone and their mother is a vampire right now because there isn't any real reason not to be a vampire.

On the point of the actives being used, that's the exception and not the norm. The average build with vampirism doesn't use teh actives. Mist form is useful for dragonknights or templar in pvp, drain is mostly just useful for tanks as you said, but none of this changes the way people play their build. The builds don't change and honestly can by and large be done without those actives so again it comes down to passives that don't have enough of a downside to make people think twice. Being a vampire, outside of the occasional Dawnbreaker really doing some hurt or a well played magic DK, doesn't have any real downside.

Most have it for the passives, not the skills. The passives are part of BiS builds which indicate the passives do not need to be more robust.

• Basically Free Regen.
• Damage Reduction at low health, when it is needed most.
• No sneak penalty

This does change how people play their builds.

You also mention that vampires should take more damage from fire and Fighters Guild abilities. They do, though Fighters Guild has been nerfed overall. A player less skilled at avoiding damage can attest to this. especially fire. There is fire damage in this game that will take 70-75% of a players health if not avoided or mitigated. A stage 4 vampire will die to that.

The skills are more used for PvP, some tanks and of course some players just having fun with their skills. Basically, they are used in playstyles that benefit from them. There is not change to them that will put them into a meta build if that is what you are asking for.

The reason mist form is used by Templars and DKs is because Sorcs have bolt escape and NBs can go into stealth. Logical with it's use. Others, all three classes, have use of Drain and the ult. It changes how people play their builds. They slot them. They use them.

Your skill idea is one that requires the skill line be brought into line with WW. This would reduce how many players use anything from the vamp line because it will reduce the benefit of being a vampire. You can disagree, but it is not reasonable to think that vampires will have the same number of active skills as a WW but get to use them full time when WW has to be in form.

Either part, passives or skills, better as they are now than change with either option you presented.

Like you said, it's basically free regen, so why not be a vampire? It really needs to have consequence to it. To return to werewolves, it used to be just a free regen passive, then they redesigned werewolves to address that. Lycanthropy dropped like a rock until it was people who wanted to play as werewolves or built to play as werewolves. That's the place I want vampires to be, something novel, something interesting and unique, not a few passives applicable to any build really without any real downside to make you reconsider becoming one.

Again to go back to werewolves, their benefits and their downsides are only there when they are in werewolf form. The thing about vampires having their benefits at all times is that they will at all times have their downsides as well as they presently do. I'm just asking we bump it up a notch.

Maybe you missed the part where I explained the downsides.

Vampires increased damage to fire and FG is real. I even presented an example in my last post here. One can ignore it, but it is there. They get their passives full time but also get their vulnerability full time. To suggest this is not the case would suggest you do not play a vampire in stage 4.

That is a fact. Vampires can feed to obtain a lower stage, but they lose passives as a result. The benefit is very much tied to the degree of vulnerability they have.

WW lost their passives when they are not in WW form since there is no vulnerability when they are not a WW, which made sense.

I did see that there is increased damage taken from fighters guild abilities and fire abilities, we just disagree as to whether or not the damage is enough. I think it should be made more severe. However you can't just make the downside more severe without giving vampire players something for it. I argue that the fact that vampires are running around everywhere is evidence that the passives are not extreme enough. Again, free regen.

I personally feel as though vampires would be better designed if you had to play to their strengths, if you had to adjust your build to account for being a vampire.

Why don't we make it 50% fire vulnerability. That sound great. Make it so only the most skilled players can even consider being a vampire. That is how ludicrous the opinion you are presenting is.

25% FULL TIME fire vulnerability is significant. Extremely significant for a great many players. The most skilled can avoid damage pretty good, but the average player to a lesser degree.
'
Increasing the fire damage would put vampirism out of reach of most players in the game.

This conversation is over. The discussion is pointless since Zos will not be increasing fire vulnerability further. Just that simple.

Good Day.

*deep breath and sigh* That's why I said there would have to be some buffs as well to make people consider playing as a vampire in spite of the obviously difficult to overcome downside which goes back to my original point. Redesign vampires to make it so you have to play like a vampire to survive as a vampire. Does that mean vampirism won't be viable for some content? Yes. That's how it used to be. Werewolves aren't viable for all content. The solution is already in the game anyways, when you are fully fed you don't take any extra fire damage.

Logic is not sound.

You want more fire damage yet say it is moot since players can merely use Double Bloody Mara to negate the effects. Basically, this will lock out a significant part of the player base and MOST CERTAINY mean no new player could handle being a vampire.

Really sound idea there. Screw over the new players big time.

It is irrelevant. Few agree with you, especially this extreme view of vampires. Probably the most extreme view yet.

My logic is plenty sound and has been consistent since the start. You've been jumping from thing to thing when one point of yours gets shot down you find something else yet you say my logic isn't sound? First it's transformations I never mentioned, then it's a misinterpretation of what I was asking for, then commentary on how increased fire damage would lock players out of content which is false, and now you have blatant argumentum ad populum fallacy mixed with some "think of the new players!"

There are a thousand and one much more complicated aspects of the game that would confuse and deter new players. Do you know how many hours I've spent explaining crafting systems to new players? Besides that's getting off of my main point which we can disagree on all you like. My main point is this, the current system through sizeable buffs without any debuffs of consequence leads to most players regardless of build becoming vampires without really having to adjust their build nor play style to accommodate vampirism. After all, why turn down free regen?

I have offered what I think to be solutions but I could very well be wrong, as I said I am not an expert in game design. Vampirism shouldn't be something everyone wants to be, it should be challenging and rewarding. Others have made arguments on how vampirism already is like that but I personally feel as though it has room to grow (again, citing the fact that such a disproportionate portion of the player population plays as vampires without ever having to alter their build to accommodate it).

Your OP lacked clarity which is why I hit a couple points were off the mark from what you are attempting to state. In fact, you have failed to even suggest the degree of some of your changes you suggest.

It took you several replies to make clear what you are attempting to suggest.

To drive home the point of the strength of your idea, not a single person posted support for it in this thread. Not one. The closest to support was a better feeding animation.

Case closed.

Still argumentum ad populum and people have since agreed, but my saying that is also argumentum ad populum. I was just offering my opinion on what would be more fun.

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

My suggestion for a long time is to change savage feeding to a new passive that moves all skills to use health. This gives a unique play you risk life by casting any skill but also consolidate all skills to use a single resource pool. You could then give other ranks to some of the passives that are only accessible by taking this passive.

Seriously, who takes savage feeding?

Oooo that sounds really neat, health as a resource. That would definitely open up unique possibilities. Imagine a spammable damage dealing spell that costs health meaning you have to rotate in a spell like vampiric drain to get your health back. Double whammy, makes something new and unique and ensures use of a less used ability.

Gargath

So far nobody posted their zombie vamps, so let me start .

asuitandtyb14_ESO

I mean, in previous TES games vampirism was a pretty punishing curse that also opened up a new cultural way of life, instead of being a way to optimize your stats for a meta.

But what do I know...?

ParaNostram

asuitandtyb14_ESO wrote: »

I mean, in previous TES games vampirism was a pretty punishing curse that also opened up a new cultural way of life, instead of being a way to optimize your stats for a meta.

But what do I know...?

That's the kind of stuff that I enjoy, but clearly the min maxers like vampirism the way it is (as even the critic who posted on here a lot called it, it's just "free regen".)

Balamoor

I think Vamps should be able to hide their appearance, but if their appearance is noticed by a mortal they are flagged for PVP for a period of time.I also think Vampirism should be much more rare, than it currently is.

ZoS has sorta Twilighted the whole thing, everyone I know just thinks they are laughable...like riding that idiotic mechanical spider mount.

Klemenziusb16_ESO

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Only complaint I have about vamps is that lame animation when they suck blood...

They've got the Blade of Woe animations as a proof of concept; give us an actual bloodsucking animation.

In addition, maybe allow vampires additional blade of executes - sucking an npc dry from behind, ripping a npc into pieces, etc.

ParaNostram

Balamoor wrote: »

I think Vamps should be able to hide their appearance, but if their appearance is noticed by a mortal they are flagged for PVP for a period of time.I also think Vampirism should be much more rare, than it currently is.

ZoS has sorta Twilighted the whole thing, everyone I know just thinks they are laughable...like riding that idiotic mechanical spider mount.

Yeah the spider mount... Gods the spider mount... I mean the mounts were really pushing it but the spider mount for some odd reason just... Grinds My Gears! (hahaha I make puns because nobody loves me)

Gargath

Balamoor wrote: »

ZoS has sorta Twilighted the whole thing, everyone I know just thinks they are laughable...like riding that idiotic mechanical spider mount.

They chose an easy way to destroy the legend they were struggling so hard to create themself, about the mystery of the Dwemers. Now the mystery is gone after Tamriel engineers sorted out how the most advanced Dwemer mechanisms work . New playable race will be probably Dwemer .