PvP Ballance: the Death of Competitive gameplay

JackDaniell · June 2017

So for 2 years now ZENIMAX seems determined to enforce the proc meta on PvP. Adding new proc sets almost every patch they can.

Now they have released battlegrounds for smalle scale structured pvp, and what do we see in battlegrounds? This game mode added so you could have more fair and competitive gameplay?

We see a massive meta of RNG based proc builds. I mean, why even bother with competitive gameplay? When the only build people are running is RNG? Seriously??? I cannot for the life of me fathom why ZENIMAX INSISTS on keeping proc builds so strong.

The worst thing about a proc build is that thier is no counter. You cannot predict what one of his attacks will proc you down for insane amounts of burst damage. IT'S JUST RANDOM. And the best part, as a proc build you don't need any timing or combination attacks, just spam and RNG.

Honestly PvP has been on a steady downhill for ballance since patch 1.5 (ever since wrobel took over). I think it's time to find a new combat lead.

lostavalon · June 2017

with the way they have gone with proc sets, id be suprised if they did make changes to them
but we can only hope i guess

LeifErickson · June 2017

Viper isn't RNG.

JackDaniell · June 2017

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Yes but it still lands with any attack regardless of combination, thus resulting in 1 single attack dealing much higher damage. Meaning to avoid it you have to pary all incoming attacks instead of parying the important ones. This effectively removes a layer of inteligible defense while giving the user free unintelligible damage.

Stack this wih 2 other proc sets and you have the lowest skill requirement build available in ESO.

IcyDeadPeople · June 2017

Well, we've had various proc sets in this game since beta. If certain sets are currently overperforming, wouldn't it make sense to simply reduce damage or proc chance of these specific sets?

JackDaniell · June 2017

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Well, we've had various proc sets in this game since beta. If certain sets are currently overperforming, wouldn't it make sense to simply reduce damage or proc chance of these specific sets?

ZENIMAX doesn't seem capable of changing sets on a case by case basis, IE the blanket crit nerf to procs that didn't fix many problem sets while ruining many other non problem sets.

Yuke · June 2017

I hope they will introduce CP-BGs because of that reason. I prefer sorcs with crazy shields over no-cp procmeta...

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news guys, but CP is more balanced atm after they revamped the CP system.

Ishammael · June 2017

What I've noticed is how effective procs sets are now that cloak is working properly.

MaximillianDiE · June 2017

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Neither is Tremorscale

JackDaniell · June 2017

Yuke wrote: »

I hope they will introduce CP-BGs because of that reason. I prefer sorcs with crazy shields over no-cp procmeta...

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news guys, but CP is more balanced atm after they revamped the CP system.

Agreed, some of the best changes his patch were in the CP changes, but game ballance as a whole has gone downhill especially with the focus on no cp pvp.

LeifErickson · June 2017

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Neither is Tremorscale

Yes it is.

alephthiago · June 2017

Viper isnt rng, it procs 100% when cooldown is up...
Btw OP, that is why i'm taking a break from eso, people have no shame in using 2-3 proc sets(and they tell a tale about giving up sustain) the destruction of siphoning attacks was the second reason...right now im having a blast on Elder Scrolls Legends. Argonians are loved and respected over there lol

CyrusArya · June 2017

I'm conflicted on the matter. I can't tell what I dislike more, skill less offensive mechanics or skill less defensive mechanics. Proc sets probably exist cus of the brain dead block specs that existed when they were introduced. But maybe now that the game has fundamentally changed, they should be re evaluated.

timidobserver · June 2017

JackDaniell wrote: »

I cannot for the life of me fathom why ZENIMAX INSISTS on keeping proc builds so strong.

My opinion is that the direction ZOS has gone with PvP balancing is on purpose. It's not poor balancing or them being oblivious. They want everyone to be able to feel powerful. 70 year olds or 3 year olds can run a proc build and do high burst damage without little to no theorycrafting, thought, or effort. It signficantly reduces the gap between the new PvPer and the veteran that has been PvPing since launch.

Proc builds can even be strong on lowbies since BGs have no CP. They don't even need to level up fully to be powerful.They can download the game, google proc build, spend a few hours getting the gear(which coincidentally is on the golden vendor every other week), and be powerful.

It makes sense from a marketing perspective if you hold your breath for a while.

MaximillianDiE · June 2017

LeifErickson wrote: »

MaximillianDiE wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Neither is Tremorscale

Yes it is.

Yes you're right its a 50% chance doh.

IcyDeadPeople · June 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

JackDaniell wrote: »

I cannot for the life of me fathom why ZENIMAX INSISTS on keeping proc builds so strong.

My opinion is that the direction ZOS has gone with PvP balancing is on purpose. It's not poor balancing or them being oblivious. They want everyone to be able to feel powerful. 70 year olds or 3 year olds can run a proc build and do high burst damage without little to no theorycrafting, thought, or effort. It signficantly reduces the gap between the new PvPer and the veteran that has been PvPing since launch.

Proc builds can even be strong on lowbies since BGs have no CP. They don't even need to level up fully to be powerful.They can download the game, google proc build, spend a few hours getting the gear(which coincidentally is on the golden vendor every other week), and be powerful.

It makes sense from a marketing perspective if you hold your breath for a while.

It doesn't seem to work out this way. The end result of very high skill gap (the average player in Cyrodiil these days is certainly much more skilled compared to the average player in 2014 or 2015) combined with these kinds of burst builds and the popularity of heavy armor or large shields, is that those who are new to PVP get slaughtered much more quickly than used to be the case and struggle more to get any kills at all. Especially if battlegrounds don't have enough people at various skill levels queued for the system to be able to assign fair teams.

IxSTALKERxI · June 2017

Yeah proc sets are lame, one of the reasons I avoid small scale PvP atm. In large scale pvp they aren't as effective, nothing more satisfying than AoE'ing down a bunch of proc set users like the trash that they are.

IZZEFlameLash · June 2017

The most probable reason would be from their own statements at one point: 'That's a cool idea! Let's put it in!' I remember them saying something along the line of that in one of their ESO Lives when I followed this game. So, balance is not exactly in their top priority list it seems. Or maybe they are simply very detached like when they demonstrated their lack of knowledge on current resource NPCs glitched to have certain skill sets whether that be honor guard, mage, mender or so until someone made a forum post about it.

Mumyo · June 2017

alephthiago wrote: »

Viper isnt rng, it procs 100% when cooldown is up...
Btw OP, that is why i'm taking a break from eso, people have no shame in using 2-3 proc sets(and they tell a tale about giving up sustain) the destruction of siphoning attacks was the second reason...right now im having a blast on Elder Scrolls Legends. Argonians are loved and respected over there lol

It is rng when it comes to the attack it will procc along with.

Since Morrowind i was really working on some awesome statbased builds that felt so fantastic to play until i had a few fights where i just got killed withing 1 second thanks to proccs.
If u wanna have a little fun and try to be competitive with some classes, u have to go procc and thats a real no go.

Bad Wrobel! BAD! bad game design!

zyk · June 2017

I think both @IcyDeadPeople and @timidobserver are correct. The overall competency in PVP is higher than ever, but changes like those make to Heavy Armor last year and the introduction of OP proc sets are definitely designed to raise the floor and lower the ceiling.

In part, competency is higher now than it used to be because it's easier to be competent if one chooses to play certain styles.

Qbiken · June 2017

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Finally someone who gets it

If i had a nickle for everytime I died to a procsetcombo in PvP........I had a nickle

GreenSoup2HoT · June 2017

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Yeah proc sets are lame, one of the reasons I avoid small scale PvP atm. In large scale pvp they aren't as effective, nothing more satisfying than AoE'ing down a bunch of proc set users like the trash that they are.

If your using EotS your on the same playing field as proc sets imo.

Derra · June 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Finally someone who gets it

If i had a nickle for everytime I died to a procsetcombo in PvP........I had a nickle

The extra direct damage burst introduced via armor has no place in esos combat system.
It creates an asinine gameplay experience where you´re afraid of what your opponent is wearing instead of him outplaying you.

If it´s rgn or not is truely just semantics at this point.

Direct damage proccs are bad gamedesign. Being able to stack more than one is absolutely insane.

IxSTALKERxI · June 2017

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Yeah proc sets are lame, one of the reasons I avoid small scale PvP atm. In large scale pvp they aren't as effective, nothing more satisfying than AoE'ing down a bunch of proc set users like the trash that they are.

If your using EotS your on the same playing field as proc sets imo.

Permafrost + Sub Assault

anathosdm · June 2017

Balance is actually not bad in both CP and non CP PVP. By far better than the last year.
Magicka and stamina are pretty equal now, with magicka a bit stronger in CP and A FEW stamina builds a bit stronger in non CP

Qbiken · June 2017

Derra wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Finally someone who gets it

If i had a nickle for everytime I died to a procsetcombo in PvP........I had a nickle

The extra direct damage burst introduced via armor has no place in esos combat system.
It creates an asinine gameplay experience where you´re afraid of what your opponent is wearing instead of him outplaying you.

If it´s rgn or not is truely just semantics at this point.

Direct damage proccs are bad gamedesign. Being able to stack more than one is absolutely insane.

ESO is not about showing who´s got the most "skill" it´s about having fun (At least that´s why I play a game, but can´t speak for you of course). If you don´t Think that procsets are fun and/or ruining your PvP experience I get that, it´s a legit reason to tweak procsets. But using "poor gamedesign", "x got no place.." etc as arguments.....*sigh*

And beside, gear is a huge Component when facing Another opponent (since it´s a part of the build)

ZOS has designed the game that way, like it or not. ESO isn´t (and shouldn´t) like the rest of the MMO´s out there.

Valencer · June 2017

Viper and Velidreth have been in the game for 10-11 months now and most of the other problematic sets were added with 1T 8-9 months ago.

The devs obviously like these sets being in the game, so my advice would be to take it about as seriously as they do (not very)...

Derra · June 2017

Qbiken wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Finally someone who gets it

If i had a nickle for everytime I died to a procsetcombo in PvP........I had a nickle

The extra direct damage burst introduced via armor has no place in esos combat system.
It creates an asinine gameplay experience where you´re afraid of what your opponent is wearing instead of him outplaying you.

If it´s rgn or not is truely just semantics at this point.

Direct damage proccs are bad gamedesign. Being able to stack more than one is absolutely insane.

ESO is not about showing who´s got the most "skill" it´s about having fun (At least that´s why I play a game, but can´t speak for you of course). If you don´t Think that procsets are fun and/or ruining your PvP experience I get that, it´s a legit reason to tweak procsets. But using "poor gamedesign", "x got no place.." etc as arguments.....*sigh*

And beside, gear is a huge Component when facing Another opponent (since it´s a part of the build)

ZOS has designed the game that way, like it or not. ESO isn´t (and shouldn´t) like the rest of the MMO´s out there.

Dying to an opponent who just put on two sets of armor and as a result is able to literally instantly kill you with one or two buttonpresses from invisibility (worst case scenario here) is in my opinion the epitome of unfun gameplay.

Poor game design and x got not place is the argument because it is not fun. When something is not fun that is poor game design and has no place in a game where ideally every participant in a fight should have fun.
Instantkills is mutually exclusive with having fun on the receiving end for a majority of the people i know.

Mr_Nobody · June 2017

No cooldowns and overperforming spells also need a rework.

Combined with proc sets the PvP state this game currently has is below terrible.

And people complained about 1.6...

Please revert all item changes to 1.6 and it will be the best game ever.

Ragnaroek93 · June 2017

Can we please stop pretending that ESO is competitive at all? Reading ESO and competitive in the same sentence always gives me a laugh, especially when it's done to justify the usage of meta builds. No, ESO is not competitive and by saying "I'm using it to stay competitive" is more like "exposing" yourself as a tryhard

Even without proc sets this game is so easy that competitive play can't be taken seriously at all. Many "good" players (including myself) don't have many actions per minute or a good reactiontime (compared to competitive pro gamers in other games), it's just that ESO is so easy that you don't need any of these.

Qbiken wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

LeifErickson wrote: »

Viper isn't RNG.

Finally someone who gets it

If i had a nickle for everytime I died to a procsetcombo in PvP........I had a nickle

The extra direct damage burst introduced via armor has no place in esos combat system.
It creates an asinine gameplay experience where you´re afraid of what your opponent is wearing instead of him outplaying you.

If it´s rgn or not is truely just semantics at this point.

Direct damage proccs are bad gamedesign. Being able to stack more than one is absolutely insane.

ESO is not about showing who´s got the most "skill" it´s about having fun (At least that´s why I play a game, but can´t speak for you of course). If you don´t Think that procsets are fun and/or ruining your PvP experience I get that, it´s a legit reason to tweak procsets. But using "poor gamedesign", "x got no place.." etc as arguments.....*sigh*

And beside, gear is a huge Component when facing Another opponent (since it´s a part of the build)

ZOS has designed the game that way, like it or not. ESO isn´t (and shouldn´t) like the rest of the MMO´s out there.

But it is poor game design, it's completely disgusting to play against all these stamblades or tremo viper stamsorcs now who can nuke half of your health with a light attack or one ransack. Yes, they completely ruin the fun I had once in PvP experience and I actually hope that proc sets get nerfed so freaking badly that nobody even consider using them anymore.

The next thing is the no CP thing. They push us into a game mode which the majority of people (according to the queue in CP campaign) don't want to play for obvious reasons. Proc sets are far stronger in no CP than they are in CP campaigns and it's completely hilarious how no CP gets hyped by people who run gank builds or meta setups. I would maybe be willing to play no CP IF (and that's a big if) the powercreep of all these sets gets tuned down by a lot.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2017

Eso is about having fun cool abilities and that go KUURRRHH and KAPOW!!, not a bunch of stuff you have to think about. -Wrobel