Were-Warden Build Update 2.0.2: Bloodmoon Lycan. (Finalised.)

Skullstachio

paulsimonps wrote: »

Just saw this build on the battlemasters corner, question. Why so many points into Spell Shield and Heavy armor Focus and nothing into Hardy, Elemental Defender or IronClad?

100p into spell shield is 5280 spell resistance, which gives you 7.9% mitigation against magicka, fire, shock and frost attacks.

Just 43 points into Elemental defender gives you 10% mitigation against Magicka, Fire, Shock and Frost.

The same numbers and comparison can be made with Heavy Armor Focus and Hardy.

Taking those 180-190 points you would spend into those 2 you could instead put 43 into Hardy and 43 into Elemental Defender and could then put points else where, such as Iron clad.

A solid 51 points into IronClad gives you 19% mitigation against any direct damage attack, and it would stack with Elemental Expert and Hardy. You would then have about 53 unused points to put elsewhere, my recommendation would be bumping up Thick Skin to 51points too for 19% from there too, which also stacks with Elemental Defender and Hardy and I mean anything that isn't a Direct damage attack is most likely a Damage over Time effect. Basically this combo of Ironclad, Thick Skin, Elemental Defender and Hardy gives you a solid 27% mitigation against all types of damage.

I'll take that into consideration (& run some tests on console). but remember this, as @Reorx_Holybeard once wisely quoted (it is a small part.):

"You are correct that tooltips should be viewed with caution most of the time. While they are generally accurate as of lately they do not always reflect all damage bonus correctly. Although when you use a training dummy or mob to test with you must be careful to factor in armor/penetration which can be a complex calculation."

paulsimonps

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Just saw this build on the battlemasters corner, question. Why so many points into Spell Shield and Heavy armor Focus and nothing into Hardy, Elemental Defender or IronClad?

100p into spell shield is 5280 spell resistance, which gives you 7.9% mitigation against magicka, fire, shock and frost attacks.

Just 43 points into Elemental defender gives you 10% mitigation against Magicka, Fire, Shock and Frost.

The same numbers and comparison can be made with Heavy Armor Focus and Hardy.

Taking those 180-190 points you would spend into those 2 you could instead put 43 into Hardy and 43 into Elemental Defender and could then put points else where, such as Iron clad.

A solid 51 points into IronClad gives you 19% mitigation against any direct damage attack, and it would stack with Elemental Expert and Hardy. You would then have about 53 unused points to put elsewhere, my recommendation would be bumping up Thick Skin to 51points too for 19% from there too, which also stacks with Elemental Defender and Hardy and I mean anything that isn't a Direct damage attack is most likely a Damage over Time effect. Basically this combo of Ironclad, Thick Skin, Elemental Defender and Hardy gives you a solid 27% mitigation against all types of damage.

I'll take that into consideration (& run some tests on console). but remember this, as @Reorx_Holybeard once wisely quoted (it is a small part.):

"You are correct that tooltips should be viewed with caution most of the time. While they are generally accurate as of lately they do not always reflect all damage bonus correctly. Although when you use a training dummy or mob to test with you must be careful to factor in armor/penetration which can be a complex calculation."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

My knowledge is not just tooltips.

Anti_Virus

Werewolf? Warden? Wereden?!

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Just saw this build on the battlemasters corner, question. Why so many points into Spell Shield and Heavy armor Focus and nothing into Hardy, Elemental Defender or IronClad?

100p into spell shield is 5280 spell resistance, which gives you 7.9% mitigation against magicka, fire, shock and frost attacks.

Just 43 points into Elemental defender gives you 10% mitigation against Magicka, Fire, Shock and Frost.

The same numbers and comparison can be made with Heavy Armor Focus and Hardy.

Taking those 180-190 points you would spend into those 2 you could instead put 43 into Hardy and 43 into Elemental Defender and could then put points else where, such as Iron clad.

A solid 51 points into IronClad gives you 19% mitigation against any direct damage attack, and it would stack with Elemental Expert and Hardy. You would then have about 53 unused points to put elsewhere, my recommendation would be bumping up Thick Skin to 51points too for 19% from there too, which also stacks with Elemental Defender and Hardy and I mean anything that isn't a Direct damage attack is most likely a Damage over Time effect. Basically this combo of Ironclad, Thick Skin, Elemental Defender and Hardy gives you a solid 27% mitigation against all types of damage.

I'll take that into consideration (& run some tests on console). but remember this, as @Reorx_Holybeard once wisely quoted (it is a small part.):

"You are correct that tooltips should be viewed with caution most of the time. While they are generally accurate as of lately they do not always reflect all damage bonus correctly. Although when you use a training dummy or mob to test with you must be careful to factor in armor/penetration which can be a complex calculation."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

My knowledge is not just tooltips.

I've found that, for PvP, it depended on which you can boost easily. At 21k resists, I noticed ironclad/thick skin didn't increase my total mitigation after reaching 18% in each. I also found that, Hardy/elemental defender stopped significant contributions to my total mitigation after about 8%, especially when I placed so many points into thick skin/ironclad.

For my build, I had unnaturally high resistance to magic. On my offense bar I was at 26k buffed resists and 30k buffed on my defending Frost bar. But my physical resists were low since I was in light armor (21k buffed/25-26k buffed)

I used your calculator, 10k DMG, and compared all the sources. It seems to work very well in PvP.

Link below to my current build:
http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=24691

paulsimonps

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Just saw this build on the battlemasters corner, question. Why so many points into Spell Shield and Heavy armor Focus and nothing into Hardy, Elemental Defender or IronClad?

100p into spell shield is 5280 spell resistance, which gives you 7.9% mitigation against magicka, fire, shock and frost attacks.

Just 43 points into Elemental defender gives you 10% mitigation against Magicka, Fire, Shock and Frost.

The same numbers and comparison can be made with Heavy Armor Focus and Hardy.

Taking those 180-190 points you would spend into those 2 you could instead put 43 into Hardy and 43 into Elemental Defender and could then put points else where, such as Iron clad.

A solid 51 points into IronClad gives you 19% mitigation against any direct damage attack, and it would stack with Elemental Expert and Hardy. You would then have about 53 unused points to put elsewhere, my recommendation would be bumping up Thick Skin to 51points too for 19% from there too, which also stacks with Elemental Defender and Hardy and I mean anything that isn't a Direct damage attack is most likely a Damage over Time effect. Basically this combo of Ironclad, Thick Skin, Elemental Defender and Hardy gives you a solid 27% mitigation against all types of damage.

I'll take that into consideration (& run some tests on console). but remember this, as @Reorx_Holybeard once wisely quoted (it is a small part.):

"You are correct that tooltips should be viewed with caution most of the time. While they are generally accurate as of lately they do not always reflect all damage bonus correctly. Although when you use a training dummy or mob to test with you must be careful to factor in armor/penetration which can be a complex calculation."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

My knowledge is not just tooltips.

I've found that, for PvP, it depended on which you can boost easily. At 21k resists, I noticed ironclad/thick skin didn't increase my total mitigation after reaching 18% in each. I also found that, Hardy/elemental defender stopped significant contributions to my total mitigation after about 8%, especially when I placed so many points into thick skin/ironclad.

For my build, I had unnaturally high resistance to magic. On my offense bar I was at 26k buffed resists and 30k buffed on my defending Frost bar. But my physical resists were low since I was in light armor (21k buffed/25-26k buffed)

I used your calculator, 10k DMG, and compared all the sources. It seems to work very well in PvP.

Link below to my current build:
http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=24691

Got the remember, CP can not be Penetrated, Resistance can.

Skullstachio

no need for bickering you two, both options should be considered to a certain extent & quite frankly, I already have the solution.

paulsimonps

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

no need for bickering you two, both options should be considered to a certain extent & quite frankly, I already have the solution.

Not bickering, discussing, there is a difference

Also saw your updated CP, and I just want to add that since the Battlemaster article says this build was for PvE and Group play in mind that Expert Defender does not work in PvE. Mobs quick and heavy attacks do not count as Heavy and Light attacks when it comes to that CP passive, it only works in PvP against other players.

Minno

paulsimonps wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Just saw this build on the battlemasters corner, question. Why so many points into Spell Shield and Heavy armor Focus and nothing into Hardy, Elemental Defender or IronClad?

100p into spell shield is 5280 spell resistance, which gives you 7.9% mitigation against magicka, fire, shock and frost attacks.

Just 43 points into Elemental defender gives you 10% mitigation against Magicka, Fire, Shock and Frost.

The same numbers and comparison can be made with Heavy Armor Focus and Hardy.

Taking those 180-190 points you would spend into those 2 you could instead put 43 into Hardy and 43 into Elemental Defender and could then put points else where, such as Iron clad.

A solid 51 points into IronClad gives you 19% mitigation against any direct damage attack, and it would stack with Elemental Expert and Hardy. You would then have about 53 unused points to put elsewhere, my recommendation would be bumping up Thick Skin to 51points too for 19% from there too, which also stacks with Elemental Defender and Hardy and I mean anything that isn't a Direct damage attack is most likely a Damage over Time effect. Basically this combo of Ironclad, Thick Skin, Elemental Defender and Hardy gives you a solid 27% mitigation against all types of damage.

I'll take that into consideration (& run some tests on console). but remember this, as @Reorx_Holybeard once wisely quoted (it is a small part.):

"You are correct that tooltips should be viewed with caution most of the time. While they are generally accurate as of lately they do not always reflect all damage bonus correctly. Although when you use a training dummy or mob to test with you must be careful to factor in armor/penetration which can be a complex calculation."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

My knowledge is not just tooltips.

I've found that, for PvP, it depended on which you can boost easily. At 21k resists, I noticed ironclad/thick skin didn't increase my total mitigation after reaching 18% in each. I also found that, Hardy/elemental defender stopped significant contributions to my total mitigation after about 8%, especially when I placed so many points into thick skin/ironclad.

For my build, I had unnaturally high resistance to magic. On my offense bar I was at 26k buffed resists and 30k buffed on my defending Frost bar. But my physical resists were low since I was in light armor (21k buffed/25-26k buffed)

I used your calculator, 10k DMG, and compared all the sources. It seems to work very well in PvP.

Link below to my current build:
http://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=24691

Got the remember, CP can not be Penetrated, Resistance can.

A little bit. I'll be coming at this from the templar perspective, but I'm following the philosophy that both minimum resists+minimum percentage mitigation must be used in PvP for LA to function without shields.

Most players don't run the debuffs they should, and even after 10k penetration I aim to get 8-10% mitigation from my armors to make the most of them. You can also purge those debuffs, with exception to mace builds. Because of mace builds, hardy > armor increase in all cases but because some Stam players don't run mace, block can be used to disrupt incoming burst more reliably (assuming you can offset it's cost).

Some resists can increase in mitigation easily through CP, but it requires a couple of outside sources. If you run a pirate set piece, with LA+Breton+Templar it will only take 1or 2 points into spell resistance CP to reach the first next available percentage. It's 4 points for a similar percentage in ele defender. I of course can equalize both Hardy/elemental defender but given that WD is easier to stack than SD, I decided hardy should receive my points since I have high spell resistance already and can use block. Also given that LA users have terrible physical resist, stacking into LA focus will yield the same total mitigation increase as placing 8%-10% into Hardy (at some point it just wouldn't push up).

Staff builds only have 10% penetration for their spells. Crushing shock will be deadly come next patch, and if players have 15280 pen, they will have another 2600 on me. You could raise ele defender, but 10% ele defender off crushing shock tooltip of 2100 each element is only 312 DMG removed. Much better to boost your armor, once you get to 21k buffed, boost hardy/defender, always use Ironclad/thick skin above 15%.

Templar also has restoring focus that offers minor protection, which under high mitigations, really doesn't offer much if you stack mitigation (I was getting 1% increases with it). But it helps when you you come across penetration builds since they need to fight against the extra percentage mitigation (which might give you more since they will be hitting your armor hard but I haven't calculated how much that would be).

Though I will say with bleeds in cyro, thick skin is more important, even if you can purge then. They ignore resists and of course do their DMG against block. Heal+purge is all I can do anyway, or use a counter hot (poisons +potion).

For crit resists, 80% crit DMG will do extra DMG against every easily obtained crit resist level. 4000 or so resistance will negate 70% or below crit DMG. I havent calculated past 4k but I know at some point you can negate this entirely. But since that comes up at great loss to your other mitigation, I didn't bother looking into; I know most builds aren't looking at going past 2500 resists which I think is an obsolete benchmark. 3500 is the new 2500 and certainly achievable through impreg/trans for both solo/group play. I believe the tanky players in cyro people complain about are using this high crit resist benchmark.

In the end, you are correct that the percentage mitigation is easier to stack than resists. But I believe a certain level of each is needed to achieve better survivability in cyro that makes LA more effective than HA in Long term fights. And I used your calculator to compare the numbers while adjusting my CP. It's possible I missed a few things while making the comparisons.

Qbiken

@paulsimonps A quick question to you regarding the enchantments that gives you resistance against poison and disease. Does they make you immune to minor defile? I remember you writing something similar about those enchants but I can´t really remember what it was with them. You mind enlighten me once again?

paulsimonps

Qbiken wrote: »

@paulsimonps A quick question to you regarding the enchantments that gives you resistance against poison and disease. Does they make you immune to minor defile? I remember you writing something similar about those enchants but I can´t really remember what it was with them. You mind enlighten me once again?

It does not, the only thing the Resistance enchantment will do is increase your resistance towards the damage type and make you immune to the damage types secondary effect. And the secondary effect of Disease is Major Defile, but you can still be hit with other sources of Major Defile, and Minor Defile as well obviously.

Qbiken

paulsimonps wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

@paulsimonps A quick question to you regarding the enchantments that gives you resistance against poison and disease. Does they make you immune to minor defile? I remember you writing something similar about those enchants but I can´t really remember what it was with them. You mind enlighten me once again?

It does not, the only thing the Resistance enchantment will do is increase your resistance towards the damage type and make you immune to the damage types secondary effect. And the secondary effect of Disease is Major Defile, but you can still be hit with other sources of Major Defile, and Minor Defile as well obviously.

Secondary effects such as enchants and poisons??

paulsimonps

Qbiken wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

@paulsimonps A quick question to you regarding the enchantments that gives you resistance against poison and disease. Does they make you immune to minor defile? I remember you writing something similar about those enchants but I can´t really remember what it was with them. You mind enlighten me once again?

It does not, the only thing the Resistance enchantment will do is increase your resistance towards the damage type and make you immune to the damage types secondary effect. And the secondary effect of Disease is Major Defile, but you can still be hit with other sources of Major Defile, and Minor Defile as well obviously.

Secondary effects such as enchants and poisons??

No, that those are just other sources of the damage types. ALL forms of damage from that damage type has a proc chance to apply an additional effect, that is referred to as the secondary effect, it has a different % chance to proc depending on how the damage type is applied, but all forms can proc it. Unless the target is immune of course.

TalostheCat

There are numerous flaws with this build (seen on Battlemaster's Corner), such as "do whatever you want and let your inner wolf guide you" and Alpha-Lupi doesn't seem to want to discuss, as he thinks we're just out to 'bicker'. This concerns me. I do not recommend this build. Once Alpha-Lupi starts understanding the need for build discussion and refining, then we can have a dialogue.

Minno

TalostheCat wrote: »

There are numerous flaws with this build (seen on Battlemaster's Corner), such as "do whatever you want and let your inner wolf guide you" and Alpha-Lupi doesn't seem to want to discuss, as he thinks we're just out to 'bicker'. This concerns me. I do not recommend this build. Once Alpha-Lupi starts understanding the need for build discussion and refining, then we can have a dialogue.

He just wants people to be respectful. No harm.

Paul also said it was just a harmless discussion.

In the design world this is called "critique" and in this form of discussion there is no 100% perfect. The best discussion always finds one problem that no one agrees on but that is not a flaw, it's about trying to articulate the viewpoints which will benefit everyone, think about and make a decision based on the information presented.

craybest

love how this works thematically (which is what makes me want a specific class/build) so I'll give it a try just leveling a warden now

bigheadsfork

Bull Netch grants major brutality, and it's a free cost ability. Major brutality is also the 5th buff that you get from the Dreugh King Slayer set. However, it doesn't stack. This makes me feel like the 5th trait on that set would be a waste, since you can get major brutality from a lot of other sources. Am I wrong in thinking this?

paulsimonps

bigheadsfork wrote: »

Bull Netch grants major brutality, and it's a free cost ability. Major brutality is also the 5th buff that you get from the Dreugh King Slayer set. However, it doesn't stack. This makes me feel like the 5th trait on that set would be a waste, since you can get major brutality from a lot of other sources. Am I wrong in thinking this?

No you aren't wrong, there is also a Werewolf ability that is used that also grants it. Using Jewelry or weapons of something like VO for the same speed boost but more sustain would be better, the jewelry and weapons would let you use Heavy armor still for the Hybrid Pelinal set.

Cronopoly

In the OP maybe I missed it but is the suggested armor All heavy or 5M / 2H, seemed glossed over and not specified though I see the CP selection was taken for 5pc heavy armor... Ok maybe I answered my own question.

Hunniebeenikki

Minno wrote: »

TalostheCat wrote: »

There are numerous flaws with this build (seen on Battlemaster's Corner), such as "do whatever you want and let your inner wolf guide you" and Alpha-Lupi doesn't seem to want to discuss, as he thinks we're just out to 'bicker'. This concerns me. I do not recommend this build. Once Alpha-Lupi starts understanding the need for build discussion and refining, then we can have a dialogue.

He just wants people to be respectful. No harm.

Paul also said it was just a harmless discussion.

In the design world this is called "critique" and in this form of discussion there is no 100% perfect. The best discussion always finds one problem that no one agrees on but that is not a flaw, it's about trying to articulate the viewpoints which will benefit everyone, think about and make a decision based on the information presented.

Do to the questions being asked and answered and explained... I have found this thread very interesting and helpful... I am considering makin a new toon and tryin this build with an Orc... (Not my norm) Sooo @Alpha-Lupi Do you have a direct link for your build pls..

Skullstachio

Hunniebeenikki wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

TalostheCat wrote: »

There are numerous flaws with this build (seen on Battlemaster's Corner), such as "do whatever you want and let your inner wolf guide you" and Alpha-Lupi doesn't seem to want to discuss, as he thinks we're just out to 'bicker'. This concerns me. I do not recommend this build. Once Alpha-Lupi starts understanding the need for build discussion and refining, then we can have a dialogue.

He just wants people to be respectful. No harm.

Paul also said it was just a harmless discussion.

In the design world this is called "critique" and in this form of discussion there is no 100% perfect. The best discussion always finds one problem that no one agrees on but that is not a flaw, it's about trying to articulate the viewpoints which will benefit everyone, think about and make a decision based on the information presented.

Do to the questions being asked and answered and explained... I have found this thread very interesting and helpful... I am considering makin a new toon and tryin this build with an Orc... (Not my norm) Sooo @Alpha-Lupi Do you have a direct link for your build pls..

did you check to see how many pages there are in this thread, because when a thread has a lot of commentary, it extends to another page, which is why I advise checking page 1 at the top to see the build. You can find the page tabs at the top or bottom of this discussion for easy navigation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351953/were-warden-build-update-1-3

Hunniebeenikki

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Hunniebeenikki wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

TalostheCat wrote: »

There are numerous flaws with this build (seen on Battlemaster's Corner), such as "do whatever you want and let your inner wolf guide you" and Alpha-Lupi doesn't seem to want to discuss, as he thinks we're just out to 'bicker'. This concerns me. I do not recommend this build. Once Alpha-Lupi starts understanding the need for build discussion and refining, then we can have a dialogue.

He just wants people to be respectful. No harm.

Paul also said it was just a harmless discussion.

In the design world this is called "critique" and in this form of discussion there is no 100% perfect. The best discussion always finds one problem that no one agrees on but that is not a flaw, it's about trying to articulate the viewpoints which will benefit everyone, think about and make a decision based on the information presented.

Do to the questions being asked and answered and explained... I have found this thread very interesting and helpful... I am considering makin a new toon and tryin this build with an Orc... (Not my norm) Sooo @Alpha-Lupi Do you have a direct link for your build pls..

did you check to see how many pages there are in this thread, because when a thread has a lot of commentary, it extends to another page, which is why I advise checking page 1 at the top to see the build. You can find the page tabs at the top or bottom of this discussion for easy navigation.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/351953/were-warden-build-update-1-3

Wasn't sure if there was another area.. Thank you very much.... Huggles

Skullstachio

Just a heads up: The next Update won't be rolling out until a few days after the release of the Clockwork City DLC on Console. so until then, take care of your Spirit Wolf & Remember, you may be soulless from Mannimarco's Machinations, but with Lycanthropy, you will never truly be alone in tamriel.

eXnihilO

Amazing work here, but it doesn't sell me on the Warden due to the WW emphasis! lol

Skullstachio

The build has been updated to 1.4. Enjoy what you see folks.

Chrlynsch

You will gain more weapon damage with an infused off hand weapon with weapon damage enchant glyph.

Skullstachio

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You will gain more weapon damage with an infused off hand weapon with weapon damage enchant glyph.

I know, but I prefer to retain weapon damage through Nirnhoned means than to go with an infused off-hand variant, plus from my perspective, it is better to have plenty of base damage from Armor sets, weapons, etc. than to let enchantments do the talking for you, because weapon enchantments are a temporary commodity, whereas having nirnhoned weapons with a provided setup means that you will have plenty of flat damage even when weapon enchantments run out of charge.

The emphasis behind some of these workings is that it provides a high amount of weapon damage without solely relying on weapon enchantments too much which gives beginners & professional players alike a special type of power play "almost" never before seen in PvE, Because by having plenty of weapon damage through passives, Armor sets, nirnhoned weapons, champion skills and a few other key variations, one can achieve a lot of weapon damage without the need for weapon enchantments that temporarily increase your weapon damage or even reduce an enemies physical/spell resistance respectively. (In a way, it helps one save extra soul gems regardless of the soul gem count, plus each one sells for 30 gold at an NPC merchant & I usually keep 200 of them, any more than that & they get sold for gold which is a good way to make easy gold when farming bosses.)

But otherwise, it is your choice if you wish to use an Infused Offhand Weapon with a weapon damage glyph, but I prefer more base damage for in the long run.

paulsimonps

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You will gain more weapon damage with an infused off hand weapon with weapon damage enchant glyph.

I know, but I prefer to retain weapon damage through Nirnhoned means than to go with an infused off-hand variant, plus from my perspective, it is better to have plenty of base damage from Armor sets, weapons, etc. than to let enchantments do the talking for you, because weapon enchantments are a temporary commodity, whereas having nirnhoned weapons with a provided setup means that you will have plenty of flat damage even when weapon enchantments run out of charge.

The emphasis behind some of these workings is that it provides a high amount of weapon damage without solely relying on weapon enchantments too much which gives beginners & professional players alike a special type of power play "almost" never before seen in PvE, Because by having plenty of weapon damage through passives, Armor sets, nirnhoned weapons, champion skills and a few other key variations, one can achieve a lot of weapon damage without the need for weapon enchantments that temporarily increase your weapon damage or even reduce an enemies physical/spell resistance respectively. (In a way, it helps one save extra soul gems regardless of the soul gem count, plus each one sells for 30 gold at an NPC merchant & I usually keep 200 of them, any more than that & they get sold for gold which is a good way to make easy gold when farming bosses.)

But otherwise, it is your choice if you wish to use an Infused Offhand Weapon with a weapon damage glyph, but I prefer more base damage for in the long run.

The problems is that the weapon damage you get from a Nirnhoned off hand is really low, cause the off hand weapon has significantly less weapon damage. The off hand weapon only gives roughly 25% of the base damage of the weapon. Here are some nice numbers

Gold CP 160 One Handed Weapon, non Nirnhoned: 1335 weapon damage
Gold CP 160 One Handed Weapon, Nirnhoned: 1535 weapon damage

Dual Wielding:

• No Passives:
  • Double non Nirnhoned: 1572 weapon damage
  • Main hand Nirnhoned: 1772 weapon damage
  • Double Nirnhoned: 1807 weapon damage
• Dual Wield Expert Passive:
  • Double non Nirnhoned: 1664 weapon damage
  • Main hand Nirnhoned: 1864 weapon damage
  • Double Nirnhoned: 1899 weapon damage
• In Werewolf Form:
  • Double non Nirnhoned: 1854 weapon damage
  • Main hand Nirnhoned: 2090 weapon damage
  • Double Nirnhoned: 2132 weapon damage

Weapon Damage Enchantment
Base enchantment 348 weapon damage for 5s with 10s cooldown
Infused enchantment 452 weapon damage for 5s with 5s cooldown

So one thing to remember, the Dual Wield Expert Passive is turned off in Werewolf form, I specifically double checked for this test. So in Werewolf, double Nirnhoned gives you a measly 42 weapon damage increase in werewolf form and even less in non werewolf with Dual Wield expert at only 35. As we can see though the difference between no Nirnhoned and Nirnhoned on Main bar is a lot more significant at 236 in Werewolf form and 200 with Dual Wield expert in non werewolf.

A base Weapon Damage enchantment will give you a nice boost and almost everyone uses them. The change from base to Infused is a solid 104 weapon damage, about 2.5 times as much as the Off hand Nirnhoned gave. Not only is there an increase of 104 weapon damage, it also reduces to cooldown to 5s down from 10s. And since enchantment like these does proc of Werewolf light and heavy attack this is very much so a viable set up to run, considering light and heavy attacks are used a lot as a werewolf.

Another good trait that should be considered is Precise, a lot of stamina users are now using Nirnhoned/Infused Main Hand and Precise off Hand. This gives you a 3.5% boost to Weapon and Spell Critical, and correct me if I am wrong but the werewolf heal scales of Spell Critical. So not only will you increase your critical chance with your DoTs and Direct attacks, you will increase the chance to get stronger self heal. Now a Werewolf does not have as many DoTs as a regular stamina character that has 2 bars and 2 ultimate's to use so you will have to decide for yourself if Infused or Precise off hand is the right choice for you. But @Chrlynsch I agree, the Infused off hand weapon looks much better than the slight constant base increase of a off hand Nirnhoned weapon.

Chrlynsch

paulsimonps wrote: »

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You will gain more weapon damage with an infused off hand weapon with weapon damage enchant glyph.

I know, but I prefer to retain weapon damage through Nirnhoned means than to go with an infused off-hand variant, plus from my perspective, it is better to have plenty of base damage from Armor sets, weapons, etc. than to let enchantments do the talking for you, because weapon enchantments are a temporary commodity, whereas having nirnhoned weapons with a provided setup means that you will have plenty of flat damage even when weapon enchantments run out of charge.

The emphasis behind some of these workings is that it provides a high amount of weapon damage without solely relying on weapon enchantments too much which gives beginners & professional players alike a special type of power play "almost" never before seen in PvE, Because by having plenty of weapon damage through passives, Armor sets, nirnhoned weapons, champion skills and a few other key variations, one can achieve a lot of weapon damage without the need for weapon enchantments that temporarily increase your weapon damage or even reduce an enemies physical/spell resistance respectively. (In a way, it helps one save extra soul gems regardless of the soul gem count, plus each one sells for 30 gold at an NPC merchant & I usually keep 200 of them, any more than that & they get sold for gold which is a good way to make easy gold when farming bosses.)

But otherwise, it is your choice if you wish to use an Infused Offhand Weapon with a weapon damage glyph, but I prefer more base damage for in the long run.

The problems is that the weapon damage you get from a Nirnhoned off hand is really low, cause the off hand weapon has significantly less weapon damage. The off hand weapon only gives roughly 25% of the base damage of the weapon. Here are some nice numbers

Gold CP 160 One Handed Weapon, non Nirnhoned: 1335 weapon damage
Gold CP 160 One Handed Weapon, Nirnhoned: 1535 weapon damage

Dual Wielding:

• No Passives:
  • Double non Nirnhoned: 1572 weapon damage
  • Main hand Nirnhoned: 1772 weapon damage
  • Double Nirnhoned: 1807 weapon damage
• Dual Wield Expert Passive:
  • Double non Nirnhoned: 1664 weapon damage
  • Main hand Nirnhoned: 1864 weapon damage
  • Double Nirnhoned: 1899 weapon damage
• In Werewolf Form:
  • Double non Nirnhoned: 1854 weapon damage
  • Main hand Nirnhoned: 2090 weapon damage
  • Double Nirnhoned: 2132 weapon damage

Weapon Damage Enchantment
Base enchantment 348 weapon damage for 5s with 10s cooldown
Infused enchantment 452 weapon damage for 5s with 5s cooldown

So one thing to remember, the Dual Wield Expert Passive is turned off in Werewolf form, I specifically double checked for this test. So in Werewolf, double Nirnhoned gives you a measly 42 weapon damage increase in werewolf form and even less in non werewolf with Dual Wield expert at only 35. As we can see though the difference between no Nirnhoned and Nirnhoned on Main bar is a lot more significant at 236 in Werewolf form and 200 with Dual Wield expert in non werewolf.

A base Weapon Damage enchantment will give you a nice boost and almost everyone uses them. The change from base to Infused is a solid 104 weapon damage, about 2.5 times as much as the Off hand Nirnhoned gave. Not only is there an increase of 104 weapon damage, it also reduces to cooldown to 5s down from 10s. And since enchantment like these does proc of Werewolf light and heavy attack this is very much so a viable set up to run, considering light and heavy attacks are used a lot as a werewolf.

Another good trait that should be considered is Precise, a lot of stamina users are now using Nirnhoned/Infused Main Hand and Precise off Hand. This gives you a 3.5% boost to Weapon and Spell Critical, and correct me if I am wrong but the werewolf heal scales of Spell Critical. So not only will you increase your critical chance with your DoTs and Direct attacks, you will increase the chance to get stronger self heal. Now a Werewolf does not have as many DoTs as a regular stamina character that has 2 bars and 2 ultimate's to use so you will have to decide for yourself if Infused or Precise off hand is the right choice for you. But @Chrlynsch I agree, the Infused off hand weapon looks much better than the slight constant base increase of a off hand Nirnhoned weapon.

Thanks, for doing the leg work on that one for me! I was really hoping I wouldn't have to "show my work".

Chrlynsch

Alpha-Lupi wrote: »

Chrlynsch wrote: »

You will gain more weapon damage with an infused off hand weapon with weapon damage enchant glyph.

I know, but I prefer to retain weapon damage through Nirnhoned means than to go with an infused off-hand variant, plus from my perspective, it is better to have plenty of base damage from Armor sets, weapons, etc. than to let enchantments do the talking for you, because weapon enchantments are a temporary commodity, whereas having nirnhoned weapons with a provided setup means that you will have plenty of flat damage even when weapon enchantments run out of charge.

The emphasis behind some of these workings is that it provides a high amount of weapon damage without solely relying on weapon enchantments too much which gives beginners & professional players alike a special type of power play "almost" never before seen in PvE, Because by having plenty of weapon damage through passives, Armor sets, nirnhoned weapons, champion skills and a few other key variations, one can achieve a lot of weapon damage without the need for weapon enchantments that temporarily increase your weapon damage or even reduce an enemies physical/spell resistance respectively. (In a way, it helps one save extra soul gems regardless of the soul gem count, plus each one sells for 30 gold at an NPC merchant & I usually keep 200 of them, any more than that & they get sold for gold which is a good way to make easy gold when farming bosses.)

But otherwise, it is your choice if you wish to use an Infused Offhand Weapon with a weapon damage glyph, but I prefer more base damage for in the long run.

If your argument for not using an infused off hand is because you are not a fan of the cool down and prefer retaining static weapon damage why do you use briarheart? You would be much better off using 7th Legion, no cool down on proc, higher weapon damage and heal. Buff almost always stays up and refreshes constantly when the heat is on. Or even just use a static weapon damage set.

The most important thing to not is the usr of an infused off hand essentially removes the cool down from the enchant making it effectively static while you are attacking.

Waffennacht

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Werewolf? Warden? Wereden?!

@Anti_Virus a thereden!

[Edit to remove bump]