It seems Crafting is really only meant to be pursued as part of Endgame.

Jaazer

Hluill wrote: »

Jaazer wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

Sorry, I did not mean to disparage you. My point was that this in an MMORPG, so unlike Skyrim you cannot simply go to a merchant, buy mats, decon, contract, sell, but mats, etc to grind your crafting up. Everything in this game takes a time commitment to level and master.

I appreciate the reply.

I've played more than a few MMOs, but I have never played Skyrim.

The part of me that is moronic is that I keep hoping for the one MMO to rule them all. An MMO that has the depth of stories and questing like ESO. Combat that is as fun, that feels as effective, as ESO's. But I want a crafting system that's real, like Vanguard's, or at least like EQ2's. Talk about taking time to master crafting, try those games! I've gotten my wife to try every MMO I've played, but she keeps going beck to EQ2 because it offers more than just quests and killing. Granted, ESO does it's quests and killing pretty well, better than most, that's all it has.

In terms of "time to master" it will take you about 10 months to get all crafting research to 9 traits in ESO.

Yeah, slugging my way through research right now. But most of that time is logged out and waiting on timers. I've played games where you have to spend hours in front of the crafting station just to level. In some games, crafting is more complicated than combat. There's skill and time involved. There are MMOs that I have yet to hit level cap in any of their distinct crafting classes.

While you are waiting on the timers you get to farm all of the Motifs that you want.

Hluill

Astarana wrote: »

I'm leveling my alt (lvl 17) in all crafts by just deconning everything my main gets (CP 160), and doing daily crafting writs. She have no skill points assigned into any of the crafts, but she is in 30-35 craft level range. This way I'm using the basic mats that you getting back from writs to do dailies and decon, decon, decon. Alch, is the only one where I actually have to make pots.

Most of my alts do the same thing. The challenge comes when you want to make something for your champion.

Hluill

Jaazer wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

Jaazer wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

Sorry, I did not mean to disparage you. My point was that this in an MMORPG, so unlike Skyrim you cannot simply go to a merchant, buy mats, decon, contract, sell, but mats, etc to grind your crafting up. Everything in this game takes a time commitment to level and master.

I appreciate the reply.

I've played more than a few MMOs, but I have never played Skyrim.

The part of me that is moronic is that I keep hoping for the one MMO to rule them all. An MMO that has the depth of stories and questing like ESO. Combat that is as fun, that feels as effective, as ESO's. But I want a crafting system that's real, like Vanguard's, or at least like EQ2's. Talk about taking time to master crafting, try those games! I've gotten my wife to try every MMO I've played, but she keeps going beck to EQ2 because it offers more than just quests and killing. Granted, ESO does it's quests and killing pretty well, better than most, that's all it has.

In terms of "time to master" it will take you about 10 months to get all crafting research to 9 traits in ESO.

Yeah, slugging my way through research right now. But most of that time is logged out and waiting on timers. I've played games where you have to spend hours in front of the crafting station just to level. In some games, crafting is more complicated than combat. There's skill and time involved. There are MMOs that I have yet to hit level cap in any of their distinct crafting classes.

While you are waiting on the timers you get to farm all of the Motifs that you want.

Sure, but farming drops is not crafting. Technically, gathering is not crafting either.

Besides, motif drops are so rare for me. I obviously don't know how to farm them.

Jaazer

Hluill wrote: »

Jaazer wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

Jaazer wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

davey1107 wrote: »

Sorry, I did not mean to disparage you. My point was that this in an MMORPG, so unlike Skyrim you cannot simply go to a merchant, buy mats, decon, contract, sell, but mats, etc to grind your crafting up. Everything in this game takes a time commitment to level and master.

I appreciate the reply.

I've played more than a few MMOs, but I have never played Skyrim.

The part of me that is moronic is that I keep hoping for the one MMO to rule them all. An MMO that has the depth of stories and questing like ESO. Combat that is as fun, that feels as effective, as ESO's. But I want a crafting system that's real, like Vanguard's, or at least like EQ2's. Talk about taking time to master crafting, try those games! I've gotten my wife to try every MMO I've played, but she keeps going beck to EQ2 because it offers more than just quests and killing. Granted, ESO does it's quests and killing pretty well, better than most, that's all it has.

In terms of "time to master" it will take you about 10 months to get all crafting research to 9 traits in ESO.

Yeah, slugging my way through research right now. But most of that time is logged out and waiting on timers. I've played games where you have to spend hours in front of the crafting station just to level. In some games, crafting is more complicated than combat. There's skill and time involved. There are MMOs that I have yet to hit level cap in any of their distinct crafting classes.

While you are waiting on the timers you get to farm all of the Motifs that you want.

Sure, but farming drops is not crafting. Technically, gathering is not crafting either.

Besides, motif drops are so rare for me. I obviously don't know how to farm them.

Agreed, but they are activities that directly support your crafting. You will also need to farm your style and trait materials.

QuebraRegra

from a skill point perspective, I have a character from console launch, but I swear he's short on skill points. I'm almost at the point with research where I'm considering "returning" him, and respecing all skill into strictly crafting due to a shortage of points.

Hluill

QuebraRegra wrote: »

from a skill point perspective, I have a character from console launch, but I swear he's short on skill points. I'm almost at the point with research where I'm considering "returning" him, and respecing all skill into strictly crafting due to a shortage of points.

I dealt with similar issues. I just respec'ed my enchanter so she could craft the final tier. It was a challenge to alocate skill points so that she could stay viable for gathering, exploring and pilgrimages to set-crafting locations so she can make a sjield for an alt.. I've had similar issues with my clothier-blacksmith.

BlackSparrow

My solution was to level one craft per character (or two, in the case of Smithing and Clothier, to save on motifs). It's a bit less of a skillpoint suck that way, so I've been able to level my crafting skills with each character. The downside is that approach it makes crafting furniture a lot harder, since the higher level furnishings require multiple crafting skill lines to make.

Hluill

BlackSparrow wrote: »

My solution was to level one craft per character (or two, in the case of Smithing and Clothier, to save on motifs). It's a bit less of a skillpoint suck that way, so I've been able to level my crafting skills with each character. The downside is that approach it makes crafting furniture a lot harder, since the higher level furnishings require multiple crafting skill lines to make.

I did the same thing, and now regret it because of the same reasons. I do not understand the design philosophy behind mixing crafting professions to make furniture. I guess it is to reward the players that concentrated on only one crafting character. Again, reinforces the idea that crafting is really for endgame, as long as one saved her crafting materials from the lower tiers.

lientier

I dont have skill point problems. but then I nearly finished all the quests ingame and have all the skyshards (also cyrodiil) with my main who is also crafter.
you know that you ca easily get a skillpoint for each group challenge in public dungeons and one for each group dungeon quest? with leveling and some skyshards you should be fine.. and there is even a skyshard in each public dungeon.
and you can do some fast quests also.. (main quest eg)

khele23eb17_ESO

Hluill wrote: »

I feel like I am gimping my low-level characters because i want them to be able to craft. Every skill point is a struggle to spend on crafting skills. It's really a shame that this game didn't design a real crafting system. I have to play games over ten-years old to experience a fun crafting-design.

Dont worry. Once at endgame youll feel like gimping yourself when you wear crafted gear. Those beautiful swords, the motif which you farmed for a week.... nope. Here are your Maelstrom daggers. Get used to them. Youll be using them for YEARS.

Didz

I can't say I recognise the problem being discussed above.

I started crafting pretty much from day 1 of joining the game, and have had great fun levelling my characters to Master level in their respective crafts.

I currently have seven Master Crafters

• Ma'Histaba Lvl 28 - Master Tailor (9 trait)
• Isilme Lifeweaver Lvl 39 - Master Alchemist (Fully Skilled)
• Garik Untredson Lvl 24 - Master Blacksmith (9 Trait)
• Corelian Stormweaver Lvl 30 - Master Enchanter (Fully Skilled)
• Has-No-Future Lvl 25 - Master Carpenter (9 Trait)
• Azok Shieldbiter Lvl 21 - Master Provisioner

I've not encountered any insurmountable problems in achieving those certifications because my characters are under Level 50. The only challenge I ever had was in delivering crafting writs and completing crafting surveys prior to the 'One Tam' scaling being introduced. Creeping through a high level zone looking for a survey location could be a bit hairy in a level 10 character. But 'One Tam' made it much easier.

As far as skill points are concerned first priority always goes to crafting progression, but I've not really had any major issues with combat performance, which is largely about gear and skill at low levels anyway, and being master crafters my guys can always afford to be well equipped.

Hluill

Didz wrote: »

I can't say I recognise the problem being discussed above.

I started crafting pretty much from day 1 of joining the game, and have had great fun levelling my characters to Master level in their respective crafts.

I currently have seven Master Crafters

• Ma'Histaba Lvl 28 - Master Tailor (9 trait)
• Isilme Lifeweaver Lvl 39 - Master Alchemist (Fully Skilled)
• Garik Untredson Lvl 24 - Master Blacksmith (9 Trait)
• Corelian Stormweaver Lvl 30 - Master Enchanter (Fully Skilled)
• Has-No-Future Lvl 25 - Master Carpenter (9 Trait)
• Azok Shieldbiter Lvl 21 - Master Provisioner

I've not encountered any insurmountable problems in achieving those certifications because my characters are under Level 50. The only challenge I ever had was in delivering crafting writs and completing crafting surveys prior to the 'One Tam' scaling being introduced. Creeping through a high level zone looking for a survey location could be a bit hairy in a level 10 character. But 'One Tam' made it much easier.

As far as skill points are concerned first priority always goes to crafting progression, but I've not really had any major issues with combat performance, which is largely about gear and skill at low levels anyway, and being master crafters my guys can always afford to be well equipped.

First off, awesome job. What you did is quite an accomplishment in patience and perseverance!

My mistake was doing this with only three characters instead of six. And I did not spread the crafting out evenly. So, even in their thirties, my blacksmith-clothier and my alchemist-enchanter-woodworker are having skillpoint issues. I do not think these issues are insurmountable, but it is a pain.

My point is still validated by the fact that the character needs to allocate skillpoints to killing instead of crafting. It certainly was made easier with One Tam, but adventuring skill is still needed. Crafting skillpoints only come from adventuring. You make a good point about the good gear, though. Characters can always light and heavy attack their way through a lot of delves and quests.

And then I have to ask: how do you feel about the furnishing recipes? Seems like a lot of woodworking ones require metal working. And more than a few metal-working ones require alchemy. There're a lot of red recipes in my furnishing-crafting windows!

Kaymorolis

Hluill wrote: »

My mistake was doing this with only three characters instead of six. And I did not spread the crafting out evenly. So, even in their thirties, my blacksmith-clothier and my alchemist-enchanter-woodworker are having skillpoint issues. I do not think these issues are insurmountable, but it is a pain.

I understand the skillpoint problem. I'm trying to make my one lvl 50 into a jack-of-all-trades crafter. That means a lot of skillpoints spent in crafting. So far I've gathered every skillshard available in my factions zones except for the public dungeon ones (I have all delve shards) and have moved on to another factions zones.

Didz

Hluill wrote: »

My mistake was doing this with only three characters instead of six. And I did not spread the crafting out evenly. So, even in their thirties, my blacksmith-clothier and my alchemist-enchanter-woodworker are having skillpoint issues. I do not think these issues are insurmountable, but it is a pain.

My point is still validated by the fact that the character needs to allocate skillpoints to killing instead of crafting. It certainly was made easier with One Tam, but adventuring skill is still needed. Crafting skillpoints only come from adventuring. You make a good point about the good gear, though. Characters can always light and heavy attack their way through a lot of delves and quests.

My initial decision to specialise on a single craft per character was specifically to spread the burden of crafting skill points as thinly as possible. I have not bothered with the Keen Eye skills on any of my crafters, as i found that despite having poor eyesight i am able to spot resources quite easily without the highlighting. But nevertheless

• Alchemy = 18 skills points
• Blacksmith = 23 skill points
• Clothing = 23 skill points
• Enchanting = 20 skill points
• Provisioning = 25 skill points
• Woodworking = 23 skill points

So, as you say doing several on the same character the skill points would soon mount up.
Achieving everything on one character would require 132 x Skill Points.

Hluill wrote: »

And then I have to ask: how do you feel about the furnishing recipes? Seems like a lot of woodworking ones require metal working. And more than a few metal-working ones require alchemy. There're a lot of red recipes in my furnishing-crafting windows!

That was the big surprise I got from the Homestead update.

Many of my crafters were almost complete when that update was launched and I was looking forward to being able to start investing some skill points in their combat bars. Instead I now found that I had to invest still more skill points in secondary skills, so that they could complete the multi-skilled furniture recipes. So, yes, its clear that Zeni doesn't like specialist crafters.

The other overhead of course are the style motif's, at first I tried to focus on allocating them to specific crafters according to speciality. But that soon became a chore so basically it means that I am now having to collect three sets, one each for clothing, blacksmithing and woodworking.

leepalmer95

I have 2 crafted

1 doing alchemy + rune

The other doing everything else

Theres really no need to have more than 1 character for a profession. Waste of time and skill points to be honest.

dodgehopper_ESO

There are a lot of things I like about the crafting system and a lot I hate. One of the things I hate is the way dropped sets and monster sets are just better than what you can make for yourself most of the time. Crafted sets feel like a skill for the experienced player to help out new players or new characters. I'm personally of the opinion they need to get back on the drawing board when it comes to this issue. Another poster made the point that the consummables hold their value. He's absolutely right. Esthetically we are stuck with the way dropped sets look, and they are the better gear. We can't adjust that look without buying costumes, but costumes are more limiting than gear. I really wish crafting design in this game had a more OG-SWG approach.

Hluill

leepalmer95 wrote: »

I have 2 crafted

1 doing alchemy + rune

The other doing everything else

Theres really no need to have more than 1 character for a profession. Waste of time and skill points to be honest.

"more than one character for a profession"

I don't understand. One character doing all the professions of crafting?

While it seems that the game design agree with you, as @Didz points out, that's a lot of skill points in in character. Which brings strongly back to my observation that crafting seems to be tacked on as some sorta endgame distraction. Maybe something to help out low-level alts or guildees. I think the observations many have made concerning dropped sets also reinforces that idea.

Part of my frustration with this is that I am trying to find a newer MMO that my wife will play besides EQ2. In EQ2, She can spend all day crafting and decorating her houses. This game is getting closer with housing. But its crafting system sucks compared to EQ2's. It's certainly not something one can really enjoy casually. Though having good crafted gear certainly helps casual play.

Didz

@Hluill You may be right.

But it seems a bit pointless if that was Zeni's intention. As has already been noted most dropped sets are superior to any that can be crafted. So, adding crafting purely as an end game distraction would coincide with the exact point when players are no longer interested in crafted sets.

From my own experience, most of the crafting requests I get are from levelling players looking for decent gear often with the Training Trait to boost their XP. I've had a few requests for Legendary CP160 sets, but probably fewer than five in the space of a year, and usually from players just looking for a stop gap until they can find the right drops.

I do agree with @dodgehopper_ESO comment though, Crafting would be far more worthwhile if crafters had more control over the visual aspect of the outfit. Styles are useful, but what is really needed is a way of crafting something similar to a costume that would create the desired image the client wants rather than just the desired performance.

There would definitely be a market for that, which would make crafting far more worthwhile than it is at present.

Hluill

@Didz I do agree that the fruit of crafting is best enjoyed for leveling characters. It provides a quick way to update gear. My one character over fifty-one-sixty is wearing half drops.

Wouldn't it be cool if our master crafters could learn how to craft some of those dropped sets! And maybe allow them to learn how to make jewelry! I would love some options to be able to make sets without having to travel to remote crafting stations.

And now we are opening that can of worms about appearance. That same character is wearing that bandit disguise she looted on Bleakrock! Most of my characters are wearing disguises or a costume.

Kaymorolis

At what point does dropped gear eclipse crafted? Veteran dungeons? Normal trials?

DaveMoeDee

Hluill wrote: »

Yep, exactly my point.

There are games where crafting doesn't require a lot of killing to just enjoy crafting.

This game: crafting is only enjoyable after a character has done a lot of killing. The character is either gimped for killing or at max level and has a surplus of skill points.

I enjoy crafting as an easy way to get gear to characters as they level. It seems to be a wasted potential...

You can get enough skill points to for all skills in a craft just grabbing shards with no combat. It is best to do those first few levels when you can resurrect where you die at no cost. Unfortunately, discovering POIs while collecting will end up leveling you past that point.

Hluill

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

Yep, exactly my point.

There are games where crafting doesn't require a lot of killing to just enjoy crafting.

This game: crafting is only enjoyable after a character has done a lot of killing. The character is either gimped for killing or at max level and has a surplus of skill points.

I enjoy crafting as an easy way to get gear to characters as they level. It seems to be a wasted potential...

You can get enough skill points to for all skills in a craft just grabbing shards with no combat. It is best to do those first few levels when you can resurrect where you die at no cost. Unfortunately, discovering POIs while collecting will end up leveling you past that point.

I don't see getting enough skyshards to be competent as a crafter without combat as possible. And then finding the crafting locations? Just getting to some of those requires combat as well.

Didz

Hluill wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Hluill wrote: »

Yep, exactly my point.

There are games where crafting doesn't require a lot of killing to just enjoy crafting.

This game: crafting is only enjoyable after a character has done a lot of killing. The character is either gimped for killing or at max level and has a surplus of skill points.

I enjoy crafting as an easy way to get gear to characters as they level. It seems to be a wasted potential...

You can get enough skill points to for all skills in a craft just grabbing shards with no combat. It is best to do those first few levels when you can resurrect where you die at no cost. Unfortunately, discovering POIs while collecting will end up leveling you past that point.

I don't see getting enough skyshards to be competent as a crafter without combat as possible. And then finding the crafting locations? Just getting to some of those requires combat as well.

My experience is that my crafting Alts gain experience and level naturally as a mixture of all three.

They rarely, if ever, waste time engaging in questing, or random killing of mobs. In fact, Rosy, very rarely leaves the town of Daggerfall.

They get their XP gains and skill points from three main sources:

1. Completing Crafting Writs which provides a small XP gain as part of each reward.
2. Visiting Wayshires and other XP tagged locations such as POI's.
3. Collecting nearby Skyshards.

There are a few craft survey's and treasure chests that cannot be reached without killing something. although i do my best to find a way if possible. But as far as Skill points are concerned most have been earned through actual crafting, and collecting skyshards, rather than completing quests or random killing.