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DK skills vs Warden skills
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.
Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.
Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.
The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.
Then what is the warden root?
And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?
Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.
As I stated before, warden has to choose between that "stun" you mention (it's not a root) and the other morph which is their pull. They cannot have both as you mentioned earlier. So the warden utility isn't exactly as is depicted in the OP.
I've not looked at the rest of what is in the OP as I cannot easily compare skills while in my iPhone.
I have never mentioned any stun. When you go hope reared my post, check DK skills, check warden skills and then we can discuss again.
Ok. Yes, it's a root. But t as I pointed out with my first post it's the other morph that's is the equivalent of chains. Your first reply to me is that both the pull and root could be slots at the same time.
You said:Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.
Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.
Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.
The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.
They're both morphs of Impaling Shards. I have provided a link to information on the warden skill line to shed some light on this for you.
http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Warden
I dont know what are you talking about. I added some img of the skills. The other morph of the root is a dps morph and the skill make magicka based damage and it can be casted as eruption.
I suggest you look at the images you yourself have posted. Summoning the gate is not equivalent to the dk chain pull. You cannot target anything directly and must hope the targets don't move before it hits the ground.
Granted, it has some interesting possible applications but it's not equivalent to chains.
In pvp the gate will work more reliably than the chains
, at least you can cast it
As I said, it has some interesting possible applications. I expect against less experienced players in PvP it could work well. I expect experienced players will quickly recognize what the cast looks like and avoid it easily.0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.When the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Sakiri✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love how no one corrected the one guy.
Frozen Device (gate) is *not* a morph of impaling shards.
The other morph of shards lets you target it like any other ground targeted ability, thater than pbaoe. Gripping Shards is the root morph.
Gate's the last skill in the Winter tree.
Any tank taking the other morph of shards is an idiot, as an aside.1 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.Because I can!3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.
A good dk will recognize what is being toss at him and reflect. Even instant proc frags has its travel time. So much better than merely absorbing.0 -
SanTii.92✭✭✭✭✭
✭DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.
sorcs are 100% reliant on landing those frags buddy. I don't even get your post anyways, are you argueing that absorbs are better than reflects or whatWhen the snows fall and the white winds blow,
the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Arg | Pc Na | Factionless Mag Warden.0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.
sorcs are 100% reliant on landing those frags buddy. I don't even get your post anyways, are you argueing that absorbs are better than reflects or what
I am not arguing that absorbs are better. But if you use the skill for defense and considering how much cheaper it is, that it can restore resources and give you major utlimate buff definitely I will say that the warden skill is better. On top of that the reflect is double reduced by resists and mitigation and in cp is really bad the damage that you make.Because I can!2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.
sorcs are 100% reliant on landing those frags buddy. I don't even get your post anyways, are you argueing that absorbs are better than reflects or what
I am not arguing that absorbs are better. But if you use the skill for defense and considering how much cheaper it is, that it can restore resources and give you major utlimate buff definitely I will say that the warden skill is better. On top of that the reflect is double reduced by resists and mitigation and in cp is really bad the damage that you make.
It doesn't do the same thing.
Now, if your thought is nerf the dk skill so it doesn't reflect and bring the cost in line then we can talk but I'll be standing with all the DKs not pleased with such an idea.0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.
sorcs are 100% reliant on landing those frags buddy. I don't even get your post anyways, are you argueing that absorbs are better than reflects or what
I am not arguing that absorbs are better. But if you use the skill for defense and considering how much cheaper it is, that it can restore resources and give you major utlimate buff definitely I will say that the warden skill is better. On top of that the reflect is double reduced by resists and mitigation and in cp is really bad the damage that you make.
It doesn't do the same thing.
Now, if your thought is nerf the dk skill so it doesn't reflect and bring the cost in line then we can talk but I'll be standing with all the DKs not pleased with such an idea.
I wanted that for the second morph that nobody uses. That was one of the proposals in the document. This is what i stated. We brainstromed these ideas and as I said ZoS read them. They just implemented them in the new class Because I can!1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.
sorcs are 100% reliant on landing those frags buddy. I don't even get your post anyways, are you argueing that absorbs are better than reflects or what
I am not arguing that absorbs are better. But if you use the skill for defense and considering how much cheaper it is, that it can restore resources and give you major utlimate buff definitely I will say that the warden skill is better. On top of that the reflect is double reduced by resists and mitigation and in cp is really bad the damage that you make.
It doesn't do the same thing.
Now, if your thought is nerf the dk skill so it doesn't reflect and bring the cost in line then we can talk but I'll be standing with all the DKs not pleased with such an idea.
I wanted that for the second morph that nobody uses. That was one of the proposals in the document. This is what i stated. We brainstromed these ideas and as I said ZoS read them. They just implemented them in the new class
My guess is you want to take the more that reflects more damage and make it into an absorb morph? Surely your not suggesting the other morph isn't used.
A couple of the top tanks on my server, with clears tanking all HM trials, suggesting the morph that incresss spell resist. Both morphs are used and it depends on the situation and perspectives.0 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
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^^^tyLughlongarm wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it
Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Several things changed.
1. I'm not sure, but I think "Obsidian Shield" used to scale out of max magica and not max health(i could be wrong)
2. DK key passives, battle roar and helping hands changed to scale out of max level and not max resource, which means much less incentive to stack lots of stamina and much more magica sustain on DK stmina builds(so more free magica for Obsidian Shield). Because DK tank now has no incentive to stack any stat other than health, they can maximize the potential of both "Obsidian Shield" and green dragon blood. The result is getting the best defense build in the game with 70k+ hp with 20k+ heal when it most needed(non crit and without mending) + best tank support ability giving huge dmg shield to all party.
Green Pact+Plague Doctor FTW.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
^^^tyLughlongarm wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Several things changed.
1. I'm not sure, but I think "Obsidian Shield" used to scale out of max magica and not max health(i could be wrong)
2. DK key passives, battle roar and helping hands changed to scale out of max level and not max resource, which means much less incentive to stack lots of stamina and much more magica sustain on DK stmina builds(so more free magica for Obsidian Shield). Because DK tank now has no incentive to stack any stat other than health, they can maximize the potential of both "Obsidian Shield" and green dragon blood. The result is getting the best defense build in the game with 70k+ hp with 20k+ heal when it most needed(non crit and without mending) + best tank support ability giving huge dmg shield to all party.
Green Pact+Plague Doctor FTW.
I do not recall what obsidian shield damage scaled off of, which is the reason it used to be used, but it worked damage received to all the shield applied to. For a brief time it was strong for DPS builds.
Current meta one still wants more stam than magika for tanks due to how orbs and shards work now. Further, the max magicka only means how many shields and chain pulls a tank can do quickly, it is not free magika. One still need the regen to back it up. Otherwise one runs out of magika quickly. There are various ways to get magika regen.0 -
MaxwellC✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lol I see a lot of discussion about wings... can anyone tell me when the last time wings worked reliably? I mean it's been so long and the last time I tried it (a couple months ago before my hiatus), I still took a face full of frags even when used right when I see the hard cast.
Wings has always been broken ever since IC release and when the argument was centered around not being able to reflect a meteor among other abilities which all had hard evidence (one from me showing multiple videos of meteors still hitting me/frags and another from some player who showed frags going right through his scales as he saw it coming he used firescale) meteors suddenly became unreflectable with the sorry excuse that it is an ultimate and should not be reflected but... what about overload lmao.. FoH.Edited by MaxwellC on May 26, 2017 10:53PM不動の Steadfast - Unwavering
XBL Gamer Tag - Maxwell
XB1 Maxwell Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Redguard Stamina DK
XB1 Max Crystal - NA DC CP 800+ Brenton Magicka DK
PC Maxwell-Crystal - NA DC - CP 200+ Brenton Magicka DK 「Retired」Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell2 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
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Do you pvp? I have issues with wings. First it doesnt reflect or protect from debuffs. Also i think that there is a cd an you can reflect max 4 projectiles in 6 seconds, it doesnt matter how much you spam the skill.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I have not had an issue with wings and have not heard of it happening to others.
Because I can!1 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭GreenhaloX wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."
75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.
I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!
It's odd, I know. Also you certainly don't have to take my word for it..... feel free to ignore, but if you are an endgame PvE tank who runs HM Vet trials with really good groups then this is the new way to go.
You can reach those amounts of health with Plague Doctor+Green Pact. The other tank would run Plague Doctor+Ebon Armory. Obsidian Shield will scale off of those Health amounts and grant the huge damage shield to your allies.
Stam DKs should not get a good shield btw. You're a Stam character lol.
Stam DKs benefit from Obsidian shield thanks to 2.5sec Major Mending and class passives activating.
Oh man, ok, I'm still in soloing mindset. I've been soloing for the past 8 months or so. Yes, MMO.. who solos in MMO, right?! Ha ha. I don't rely on any healer or any other raid buff to sustain, world boss, dungeon, pledge or whatnot. I'm just self-sustained. So, yeah, for a soloist dps, it would be nice to have a better shield. I'm not a trial guy. Done a few, though, and went around the block a few times with it (even on vet).. once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away.. something, something dark side, prior to my current solo lonewolf phase. I just don't like trials. I'm also not an expert tank, or familiar with the raid buff you get from trials, but sololy or tanking for world bosses here and there, I seem to fair just fine with my 40k tank. Yeah, I use the Plaque Doc and playing around with other HA sets. I do have a few pieces of Green Pact. I'll see and play around with it. At the least, it will just add another 4k or so to my hp. Sure, the hp will buff up the Igneous Shield some more.
So in those HM trials you're talking about, there have to be quite a few War Horns going up a lot, because I'm saying, with a tank with that high of hp, you sacrificing all other attributes; majicka and stam are crap. However, ok, if it works, you've been through it. Although.. from what I have seen, it is really less efficient, even though you have bookoo of hp. For instance, not too long ago, I came upon that meat of the mass boss pit in Wrothgar and saw a tank dude with 65k hp started it. For giggles and grins, I stood back and watch to see how he would do. It was funny. He had the whole mob on him, and literally what he was doing was buffing up hardened armor and whatnot, all the while everybody and their mothers there were on him and pommeling him. He was running around like a chicken with his head cut off just trying not to wipe. Ha ha
Not that I'm a badass or anything like you, but I had soloed that before with my StamDK. I was on my DK tank (40k hp) at this one, and I jumped in. However, two tanks was not cutting it; given that dude was not really doing much damage, but taking a lot of damages fine. I had to go on dps mode with my tank. Even though, it's not putting out damages like what a normal dps could do, it was sufficient with the greatsword's Wrecking Blow comboed with Choking Talons, Noxious Breath, Rally, Beast Trap and the Flawless Dawnbreaker (again, a hybrid tank/dps with this one.) I was on pseudo-dps mode the whole time, literally knocking out targets on me, then having to converge on the adds on him throughout. Even when the boss Snagara (is that how you spell it?) came out, I was sololy on him and whatever adds nearby all while that other tank was keeping the other adds at bay. 2 tanks on a world boss.. doable and did, but damn! Ha ha. We would probably have been there all day if I was on my 60k hp, no maj/stam/weapon damage tank. Anyways, yeah, I mess around with that Green Pact, for giggles and grins.Edited by GreenhaloX on May 27, 2017 12:31PM0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GreenhaloX wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."
75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.
I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!
It's odd, I know. Also you certainly don't have to take my word for it..... feel free to ignore, but if you are an endgame PvE tank who runs HM Vet trials with really good groups then this is the new way to go.
You can reach those amounts of health with Plague Doctor+Green Pact. The other tank would run Plague Doctor+Ebon Armory. Obsidian Shield will scale off of those Health amounts and grant the huge damage shield to your allies.
Stam DKs should not get a good shield btw. You're a Stam character lol.
Stam DKs benefit from Obsidian shield thanks to 2.5sec Major Mending and class passives activating.
Oh man, ok, I'm still in soloing mindset. I've been soloing for the past 8 months or so. Yes, MMO.. who solos in MMO, right?! Ha ha. I don't rely on any healer or any other raid buff to sustain, world boss, dungeon, pledge or whatnot. I'm just self-sustained. So, yeah, for a soloist dps, it would be nice to have a better shield. I'm not a trial guy. Done a few, though, and went around the block a few times with it (even on vet).. once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away.. something, something dark side, prior to my current solo lonewolf phase. I just don't like trials. I'm also not an expert tank, or familiar with the raid buff you get from trials, but sololy or tanking for world bosses here and there, I seem to fair just fine with my 40k tank. Yeah, I use the Plaque Doc and playing around with other HA sets. I do have a few pieces of Green Pact. I'll see and play around with it. At the least, it will just add another 4k or so to my hp. Sure, the hp will buff up the Igneous Shield some more.
So in those HM trials you're talking about, there have to be quite a few War Horns going up a lot, because I'm saying, with a tank with that high of hp, you sacrificing all other attributes; majicka and stam are crap. However, ok, if it works, you've been through it. Although.. from what I have seen, it is really less efficient, even though you have bookoo of hp. For instance, not too long ago, I came upon that meat of the mass boss pit in Wrothgar and saw a tank dude with 65k hp started it. For giggles and grins, I stood back and watch to see how he would do. It was funny. He had the whole mob on him, and literally what he was doing was buffing up hardened armor and whatnot, all the while everybody and their mothers there were on him and pommeling him. He was running around like a chicken with his head cut off just trying not to wipe. Ha ha
Not that I'm a badass or anything like you, but I had soloed that before with my StamDK. I was on my DK tank (40k hp) at this one, and I jumped in. However, two tanks was not cutting it; given that dude was not really doing much damage, but taking a lot of damages fine. I had to go on dps mode with my tank. Even though, it's not putting out damages like what a normal dps could do, it was sufficient with the greatsword's Wrecking Blow comboed with Choking Talons, Noxious Breath, Rally, Beast Trap and the Flawless Dawnbreaker (again, a hybrid tank/dps with this one.) I was on pseudo-dps mode the whole time, literally knocking out targets on me, then having to converge on the adds on him throughout. Even when the boss Snagara (is that how you spell it?) came out, I was sololy on him and whatever adds nearby all while that other tank was keeping the other adds at bay. 2 tanks on a world boss.. doable and did, but damn! Ha ha. We would probably have been there all day if I was on my 60k hp, no maj/stam/weapon damage tank. Anyways, yeah, I mess around with that Green Pact, for giggles and grins.
@GreenhaloX
For DPS better shield, if you are magika you have access to harness Magicka from the light armor line. If you are stam the best way to deal with damage is Blade Cloak to reduce damage from Aoe (lots of AoE in the game) and Vigor. Second best for stam is Rally.
For tanking the high HP you mentioned really just came into play because stacking resources no longer benefits us but that becomes a different story than soloing or dps. For most things one would solo as a tank there is not much that would really kill you. It is easy to sustain ones life in open world.
Do you pvp? I have issues with wings. First it doesnt reflect or protect from debuffs. Also i think that there is a cd an you can reflect max 4 projectiles in 6 seconds, it doesnt matter how much you spam the skill.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I have not had an issue with wings and have not heard of it happening to others.
@Bashev
Yes and about your comment, there should not be a CD for reflecting. It reflects 4 skills over 4 seconds. Having a 1 second CD between reflects would mean it could only reflects 3 skills in actual practice. It would also state it in the tooltip if it was the case though Zos is far from perfect.
If the skill is reflected so is the debuff. It is a matter of knowing what can be reflected and what cannot. The days of DK god mode against range (basically reflecting everything) are long past and a DK must now what can be reflected and what cannot.
0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."
75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.
I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!
It's odd, I know. Also you certainly don't have to take my word for it..... feel free to ignore, but if you are an endgame PvE tank who runs HM Vet trials with really good groups then this is the new way to go.
You can reach those amounts of health with Plague Doctor+Green Pact. The other tank would run Plague Doctor+Ebon Armory. Obsidian Shield will scale off of those Health amounts and grant the huge damage shield to your allies.
Stam DKs should not get a good shield btw. You're a Stam character lol.
Stam DKs benefit from Obsidian shield thanks to 2.5sec Major Mending and class passives activating.
Oh man, ok, I'm still in soloing mindset. I've been soloing for the past 8 months or so. Yes, MMO.. who solos in MMO, right?! Ha ha. I don't rely on any healer or any other raid buff to sustain, world boss, dungeon, pledge or whatnot. I'm just self-sustained. So, yeah, for a soloist dps, it would be nice to have a better shield. I'm not a trial guy. Done a few, though, and went around the block a few times with it (even on vet).. once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away.. something, something dark side, prior to my current solo lonewolf phase. I just don't like trials. I'm also not an expert tank, or familiar with the raid buff you get from trials, but sololy or tanking for world bosses here and there, I seem to fair just fine with my 40k tank. Yeah, I use the Plaque Doc and playing around with other HA sets. I do have a few pieces of Green Pact. I'll see and play around with it. At the least, it will just add another 4k or so to my hp. Sure, the hp will buff up the Igneous Shield some more.
So in those HM trials you're talking about, there have to be quite a few War Horns going up a lot, because I'm saying, with a tank with that high of hp, you sacrificing all other attributes; majicka and stam are crap. However, ok, if it works, you've been through it. Although.. from what I have seen, it is really less efficient, even though you have bookoo of hp. For instance, not too long ago, I came upon that meat of the mass boss pit in Wrothgar and saw a tank dude with 65k hp started it. For giggles and grins, I stood back and watch to see how he would do. It was funny. He had the whole mob on him, and literally what he was doing was buffing up hardened armor and whatnot, all the while everybody and their mothers there were on him and pommeling him. He was running around like a chicken with his head cut off just trying not to wipe. Ha ha
Not that I'm a badass or anything like you, but I had soloed that before with my StamDK. I was on my DK tank (40k hp) at this one, and I jumped in. However, two tanks was not cutting it; given that dude was not really doing much damage, but taking a lot of damages fine. I had to go on dps mode with my tank. Even though, it's not putting out damages like what a normal dps could do, it was sufficient with the greatsword's Wrecking Blow comboed with Choking Talons, Noxious Breath, Rally, Beast Trap and the Flawless Dawnbreaker (again, a hybrid tank/dps with this one.) I was on pseudo-dps mode the whole time, literally knocking out targets on me, then having to converge on the adds on him throughout. Even when the boss Snagara (is that how you spell it?) came out, I was sololy on him and whatever adds nearby all while that other tank was keeping the other adds at bay. 2 tanks on a world boss.. doable and did, but damn! Ha ha. We would probably have been there all day if I was on my 60k hp, no maj/stam/weapon damage tank. Anyways, yeah, I mess around with that Green Pact, for giggles and grins.
@GreenhaloX
For DPS better shield, if you are magika you have access to harness Magicka from the light armor line. If you are stam the best way to deal with damage is Blade Cloak to reduce damage from Aoe (lots of AoE in the game) and Vigor. Second best for stam is Rally.
For tanking the high HP you mentioned really just came into play because stacking resources no longer benefits us but that becomes a different story than soloing or dps. For most things one would solo as a tank there is not much that would really kill you. It is easy to sustain ones life in open world.
Do you pvp? I have issues with wings. First it doesnt reflect or protect from debuffs. Also i think that there is a cd an you can reflect max 4 projectiles in 6 seconds, it doesnt matter how much you spam the skill.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I have not had an issue with wings and have not heard of it happening to others.
@Bashev
Yes and about your comment, there should not be a CD for reflecting. It reflects 4 skills over 4 seconds. Having a 1 second CD between reflects would mean it could only reflects 3 skills in actual practice. It would also state it in the tooltip if it was the case though Zos is far from perfect.
If the skill is reflected so is the debuff. It is a matter of knowing what can be reflected and what cannot. The days of DK god mode against range (basically reflecting everything) are long past and a DK must now what can be reflected and what cannot.
If a skill is reflected the debuff is not.
Look at tempar flare? You still get the defile.
On another note i didn't know people still used wings, its basically useful for snipes and frag and thats it nowdays.Edited by leepalmer95 on May 27, 2017 3:28PMPS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."
75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.
I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!
It's odd, I know. Also you certainly don't have to take my word for it..... feel free to ignore, but if you are an endgame PvE tank who runs HM Vet trials with really good groups then this is the new way to go.
You can reach those amounts of health with Plague Doctor+Green Pact. The other tank would run Plague Doctor+Ebon Armory. Obsidian Shield will scale off of those Health amounts and grant the huge damage shield to your allies.
Stam DKs should not get a good shield btw. You're a Stam character lol.
Stam DKs benefit from Obsidian shield thanks to 2.5sec Major Mending and class passives activating.
Oh man, ok, I'm still in soloing mindset. I've been soloing for the past 8 months or so. Yes, MMO.. who solos in MMO, right?! Ha ha. I don't rely on any healer or any other raid buff to sustain, world boss, dungeon, pledge or whatnot. I'm just self-sustained. So, yeah, for a soloist dps, it would be nice to have a better shield. I'm not a trial guy. Done a few, though, and went around the block a few times with it (even on vet).. once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away.. something, something dark side, prior to my current solo lonewolf phase. I just don't like trials. I'm also not an expert tank, or familiar with the raid buff you get from trials, but sololy or tanking for world bosses here and there, I seem to fair just fine with my 40k tank. Yeah, I use the Plaque Doc and playing around with other HA sets. I do have a few pieces of Green Pact. I'll see and play around with it. At the least, it will just add another 4k or so to my hp. Sure, the hp will buff up the Igneous Shield some more.
So in those HM trials you're talking about, there have to be quite a few War Horns going up a lot, because I'm saying, with a tank with that high of hp, you sacrificing all other attributes; majicka and stam are crap. However, ok, if it works, you've been through it. Although.. from what I have seen, it is really less efficient, even though you have bookoo of hp. For instance, not too long ago, I came upon that meat of the mass boss pit in Wrothgar and saw a tank dude with 65k hp started it. For giggles and grins, I stood back and watch to see how he would do. It was funny. He had the whole mob on him, and literally what he was doing was buffing up hardened armor and whatnot, all the while everybody and their mothers there were on him and pommeling him. He was running around like a chicken with his head cut off just trying not to wipe. Ha ha
Not that I'm a badass or anything like you, but I had soloed that before with my StamDK. I was on my DK tank (40k hp) at this one, and I jumped in. However, two tanks was not cutting it; given that dude was not really doing much damage, but taking a lot of damages fine. I had to go on dps mode with my tank. Even though, it's not putting out damages like what a normal dps could do, it was sufficient with the greatsword's Wrecking Blow comboed with Choking Talons, Noxious Breath, Rally, Beast Trap and the Flawless Dawnbreaker (again, a hybrid tank/dps with this one.) I was on pseudo-dps mode the whole time, literally knocking out targets on me, then having to converge on the adds on him throughout. Even when the boss Snagara (is that how you spell it?) came out, I was sololy on him and whatever adds nearby all while that other tank was keeping the other adds at bay. 2 tanks on a world boss.. doable and did, but damn! Ha ha. We would probably have been there all day if I was on my 60k hp, no maj/stam/weapon damage tank. Anyways, yeah, I mess around with that Green Pact, for giggles and grins.
@GreenhaloX
For DPS better shield, if you are magika you have access to harness Magicka from the light armor line. If you are stam the best way to deal with damage is Blade Cloak to reduce damage from Aoe (lots of AoE in the game) and Vigor. Second best for stam is Rally.
For tanking the high HP you mentioned really just came into play because stacking resources no longer benefits us but that becomes a different story than soloing or dps. For most things one would solo as a tank there is not much that would really kill you. It is easy to sustain ones life in open world.
Do you pvp? I have issues with wings. First it doesnt reflect or protect from debuffs. Also i think that there is a cd an you can reflect max 4 projectiles in 6 seconds, it doesnt matter how much you spam the skill.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I have not had an issue with wings and have not heard of it happening to others.
@Bashev
Yes and about your comment, there should not be a CD for reflecting. It reflects 4 skills over 4 seconds. Having a 1 second CD between reflects would mean it could only reflects 3 skills in actual practice. It would also state it in the tooltip if it was the case though Zos is far from perfect.
If the skill is reflected so is the debuff. It is a matter of knowing what can be reflected and what cannot. The days of DK god mode against range (basically reflecting everything) are long past and a DK must now what can be reflected and what cannot.
If a skill is reflected the debuff is not.
Look at tempar flare? You still get the defile.
On another note i didn't know people still used wings, its basically useful for snipes and frag and thats it nowdays.
@leepalmer95 when did this change? I do not recall getting a debuff while using reflect but can recall getting my own debuff returned to me when my skill was reflected back.0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."
75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.
I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!
It's odd, I know. Also you certainly don't have to take my word for it..... feel free to ignore, but if you are an endgame PvE tank who runs HM Vet trials with really good groups then this is the new way to go.
You can reach those amounts of health with Plague Doctor+Green Pact. The other tank would run Plague Doctor+Ebon Armory. Obsidian Shield will scale off of those Health amounts and grant the huge damage shield to your allies.
Stam DKs should not get a good shield btw. You're a Stam character lol.
Stam DKs benefit from Obsidian shield thanks to 2.5sec Major Mending and class passives activating.
Oh man, ok, I'm still in soloing mindset. I've been soloing for the past 8 months or so. Yes, MMO.. who solos in MMO, right?! Ha ha. I don't rely on any healer or any other raid buff to sustain, world boss, dungeon, pledge or whatnot. I'm just self-sustained. So, yeah, for a soloist dps, it would be nice to have a better shield. I'm not a trial guy. Done a few, though, and went around the block a few times with it (even on vet).. once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away.. something, something dark side, prior to my current solo lonewolf phase. I just don't like trials. I'm also not an expert tank, or familiar with the raid buff you get from trials, but sololy or tanking for world bosses here and there, I seem to fair just fine with my 40k tank. Yeah, I use the Plaque Doc and playing around with other HA sets. I do have a few pieces of Green Pact. I'll see and play around with it. At the least, it will just add another 4k or so to my hp. Sure, the hp will buff up the Igneous Shield some more.
So in those HM trials you're talking about, there have to be quite a few War Horns going up a lot, because I'm saying, with a tank with that high of hp, you sacrificing all other attributes; majicka and stam are crap. However, ok, if it works, you've been through it. Although.. from what I have seen, it is really less efficient, even though you have bookoo of hp. For instance, not too long ago, I came upon that meat of the mass boss pit in Wrothgar and saw a tank dude with 65k hp started it. For giggles and grins, I stood back and watch to see how he would do. It was funny. He had the whole mob on him, and literally what he was doing was buffing up hardened armor and whatnot, all the while everybody and their mothers there were on him and pommeling him. He was running around like a chicken with his head cut off just trying not to wipe. Ha ha
Not that I'm a badass or anything like you, but I had soloed that before with my StamDK. I was on my DK tank (40k hp) at this one, and I jumped in. However, two tanks was not cutting it; given that dude was not really doing much damage, but taking a lot of damages fine. I had to go on dps mode with my tank. Even though, it's not putting out damages like what a normal dps could do, it was sufficient with the greatsword's Wrecking Blow comboed with Choking Talons, Noxious Breath, Rally, Beast Trap and the Flawless Dawnbreaker (again, a hybrid tank/dps with this one.) I was on pseudo-dps mode the whole time, literally knocking out targets on me, then having to converge on the adds on him throughout. Even when the boss Snagara (is that how you spell it?) came out, I was sololy on him and whatever adds nearby all while that other tank was keeping the other adds at bay. 2 tanks on a world boss.. doable and did, but damn! Ha ha. We would probably have been there all day if I was on my 60k hp, no maj/stam/weapon damage tank. Anyways, yeah, I mess around with that Green Pact, for giggles and grins.
@GreenhaloX
For DPS better shield, if you are magika you have access to harness Magicka from the light armor line. If you are stam the best way to deal with damage is Blade Cloak to reduce damage from Aoe (lots of AoE in the game) and Vigor. Second best for stam is Rally.
For tanking the high HP you mentioned really just came into play because stacking resources no longer benefits us but that becomes a different story than soloing or dps. For most things one would solo as a tank there is not much that would really kill you. It is easy to sustain ones life in open world.
Do you pvp? I have issues with wings. First it doesnt reflect or protect from debuffs. Also i think that there is a cd an you can reflect max 4 projectiles in 6 seconds, it doesnt matter how much you spam the skill.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I have not had an issue with wings and have not heard of it happening to others.
@Bashev
Yes and about your comment, there should not be a CD for reflecting. It reflects 4 skills over 4 seconds. Having a 1 second CD between reflects would mean it could only reflects 3 skills in actual practice. It would also state it in the tooltip if it was the case though Zos is far from perfect.
If the skill is reflected so is the debuff. It is a matter of knowing what can be reflected and what cannot. The days of DK god mode against range (basically reflecting everything) are long past and a DK must now what can be reflected and what cannot.
If a skill is reflected the debuff is not.
Look at tempar flare? You still get the defile.
On another note i didn't know people still used wings, its basically useful for snipes and frag and thats it nowdays.
@leepalmer95 when did this change? I do not recall getting a debuff while using reflect but can recall getting my own debuff returned to me when my skill was reflected back.
Its always been like that.
Did they fix the double armor mitigation bug on wings or is it still there?PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »GreenhaloX wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."
75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.
I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!
It's odd, I know. Also you certainly don't have to take my word for it..... feel free to ignore, but if you are an endgame PvE tank who runs HM Vet trials with really good groups then this is the new way to go.
You can reach those amounts of health with Plague Doctor+Green Pact. The other tank would run Plague Doctor+Ebon Armory. Obsidian Shield will scale off of those Health amounts and grant the huge damage shield to your allies.
Stam DKs should not get a good shield btw. You're a Stam character lol.
Stam DKs benefit from Obsidian shield thanks to 2.5sec Major Mending and class passives activating.
Oh man, ok, I'm still in soloing mindset. I've been soloing for the past 8 months or so. Yes, MMO.. who solos in MMO, right?! Ha ha. I don't rely on any healer or any other raid buff to sustain, world boss, dungeon, pledge or whatnot. I'm just self-sustained. So, yeah, for a soloist dps, it would be nice to have a better shield. I'm not a trial guy. Done a few, though, and went around the block a few times with it (even on vet).. once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away.. something, something dark side, prior to my current solo lonewolf phase. I just don't like trials. I'm also not an expert tank, or familiar with the raid buff you get from trials, but sololy or tanking for world bosses here and there, I seem to fair just fine with my 40k tank. Yeah, I use the Plaque Doc and playing around with other HA sets. I do have a few pieces of Green Pact. I'll see and play around with it. At the least, it will just add another 4k or so to my hp. Sure, the hp will buff up the Igneous Shield some more.
So in those HM trials you're talking about, there have to be quite a few War Horns going up a lot, because I'm saying, with a tank with that high of hp, you sacrificing all other attributes; majicka and stam are crap. However, ok, if it works, you've been through it. Although.. from what I have seen, it is really less efficient, even though you have bookoo of hp. For instance, not too long ago, I came upon that meat of the mass boss pit in Wrothgar and saw a tank dude with 65k hp started it. For giggles and grins, I stood back and watch to see how he would do. It was funny. He had the whole mob on him, and literally what he was doing was buffing up hardened armor and whatnot, all the while everybody and their mothers there were on him and pommeling him. He was running around like a chicken with his head cut off just trying not to wipe. Ha ha
Not that I'm a badass or anything like you, but I had soloed that before with my StamDK. I was on my DK tank (40k hp) at this one, and I jumped in. However, two tanks was not cutting it; given that dude was not really doing much damage, but taking a lot of damages fine. I had to go on dps mode with my tank. Even though, it's not putting out damages like what a normal dps could do, it was sufficient with the greatsword's Wrecking Blow comboed with Choking Talons, Noxious Breath, Rally, Beast Trap and the Flawless Dawnbreaker (again, a hybrid tank/dps with this one.) I was on pseudo-dps mode the whole time, literally knocking out targets on me, then having to converge on the adds on him throughout. Even when the boss Snagara (is that how you spell it?) came out, I was sololy on him and whatever adds nearby all while that other tank was keeping the other adds at bay. 2 tanks on a world boss.. doable and did, but damn! Ha ha. We would probably have been there all day if I was on my 60k hp, no maj/stam/weapon damage tank. Anyways, yeah, I mess around with that Green Pact, for giggles and grins.
@GreenhaloX
For DPS better shield, if you are magika you have access to harness Magicka from the light armor line. If you are stam the best way to deal with damage is Blade Cloak to reduce damage from Aoe (lots of AoE in the game) and Vigor. Second best for stam is Rally.
For tanking the high HP you mentioned really just came into play because stacking resources no longer benefits us but that becomes a different story than soloing or dps. For most things one would solo as a tank there is not much that would really kill you. It is easy to sustain ones life in open world.
Do you pvp? I have issues with wings. First it doesnt reflect or protect from debuffs. Also i think that there is a cd an you can reflect max 4 projectiles in 6 seconds, it doesnt matter how much you spam the skill.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I have not had an issue with wings and have not heard of it happening to others.
@Bashev
Yes and about your comment, there should not be a CD for reflecting. It reflects 4 skills over 4 seconds. Having a 1 second CD between reflects would mean it could only reflects 3 skills in actual practice. It would also state it in the tooltip if it was the case though Zos is far from perfect.
If the skill is reflected so is the debuff. It is a matter of knowing what can be reflected and what cannot. The days of DK god mode against range (basically reflecting everything) are long past and a DK must now what can be reflected and what cannot.
If a skill is reflected the debuff is not.
Look at tempar flare? You still get the defile.
On another note i didn't know people still used wings, its basically useful for snipes and frag and thats it nowdays.
@leepalmer95 when did this change? I do not recall getting a debuff while using reflect but can recall getting my own debuff returned to me when my skill was reflected back.
Its always been like that.
Did they fix the double armor mitigation bug on wings or is it still there?
Double armor mitigation is there though it is not so bad as the double cp mitigation.Because I can!1 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.
Absorb projectiles is far worse than a reflect. Wings are one of the deadliest skill out there to any sorc or ranged char, while shimmering shield is nothing but another form of sustain.
Do you know how many skills sorc has that can be reflected? 1 frags and overload ulti. Sorcs cry louder and they got unblockable, undogable, unreflectable curse and wrath explosion. Even crushing shock is not reflectable anymore.
A good dk will recognize what is being toss at him and reflect. Even instant proc frags has its travel time. So much better than merely absorbing.
A good dk doesnt even slot reflect anymore because it's a waste of a slot against most builds.
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DisgracefulMind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭GreenhaloX wrote: »
He isn't wrong.Lughlongarm wrote: »The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.
are you high?
the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?
Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.
In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.
With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.
Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.
Now you know
(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)
this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.
It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.
Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.
Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.
Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."
75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.
I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!
It is the new meta. Sorry to pop your bubble.Edited by DisgracefulMind on May 27, 2017 4:57PMUnfortunate magicka warden main.
PC/NA Server
Fairweather Friends
Retired to baby bgs forever. Leave me alone.0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭Alcast explains the high health meta and why DK out preforming every other tank in the game by miles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzfb8fQ3DI0
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lughlongarm wrote: »Alcast explains the high health meta and why DK out preforming every other tank in the game by miles.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzfb8fQ3DI0
I do not think there is any doubt amongst even semi serious raiders that DKs tanks have and still bring the most into a raid. Does not mean others cannot. I know of at least 2 other classes have tanked clears of vMoL HM which has been the most challenging content until now. Well, we will see once many guilds have vHoF on farm.0 -
GreenhaloX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Lughlongarm wrote: »Alcast explains the high health meta and why DK out preforming every other tank in the game by miles.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzfb8fQ3DI0
I do not think there is any doubt amongst even semi serious raiders that DKs tanks have and still bring the most into a raid. Does not mean others cannot. I know of at least 2 other classes have tanked clears of vMoL HM which has been the most challenging content until now. Well, we will see once many guilds have vHoF on farm.
Oh yeah, I'm not questioning that DK is the best at tank right now. DK is fine at tanking or stam dps. I can't speak for tanking in trials or vMoL. I haven't done a trial in about 6 months or had tanked in a trial. I have done a lot of trials (always been dps), normal and vet, prior, but personally, I just don't like trial. I'm also the kind of guy who will put on the shoes before critiquing or analyzing something. So, I threw on 5x Plaque, 5x Green Pact and two monster pieces with the extra health and stamina on my DK. However, unlike Alcast's from his clip, my DK is Imperial because you do get more health and stam than Argonian. Plus, I just don't like the look of an Argonian (no lusty Argonian maid for this dude. ha ha). I also don't like Vampire. So, my majicka is a bit less, but I'm fine with that, and I have a lot more stam. Also, while tanking, stam is what's really needed to sustain. When you are blocking, it is costing stam. I use Puncture/Piecing Armor to keep the boss at bay, so that cost stam. The Defensive Posture/Stance uses stam. I also slot Igneous and Burning Embers to restore health. I like that the Burning Ember's cost of majicka is low.
Right now, sitting with three gold pieces and the rest still purple, I'm sitting about 66k hp and 18k stam. If I gold out everything, I'm sure I'll probably hit 68 or 69k hp. Granted, it's not the 70-80k which this current meta is talking about or supposed to be. Also, I can't see how one would reach 80k or into the 70k hp. I'm tapped out on everything health, i.e., all gold heath enchants, the Lord, all gold health recovery, max health attributes. Anyways, the current hp of 65k is more than sufficient enough, even if there is surely a way to also somehow boost it to the 70k and 80k hp.
So, what I am trying to critique is the stamina resource management part while tanking with such a high hp tank. Maybe I should try vMoL or a vet trial with this tank of mine, ha ha. I'm sure whatever raid and/or group buff whatnot are contributing in trial group. However, going around hitting world bosses, dungeons and other higher hp area bosses in PvE land, it just seem the stam pool is a bit low to sustain the blocking that I would otherwise like. Oh, I have no problem with the health. Even when I am out of stam, with the nice Igneous and Burning Ember, my HP is fine. Plus, I favor Reinforced versus Infused (I only used Infused for stam dps), so my spell and physical resistance are in the higher 20k. Especially, when there are others I am tanking for are not really the effective dpsers, ha ha, I'm standing there blocking longer, and the more I block, the more stam are used up. Yes, pop a portion here and there to restore stam and also the Spell Ward ultimate also restore stam.
Thus, comparatively with my hybrid dps tank which has 40k hp and 30k stam, my 65k one has a tougher time sustaining stam resource; whereas my 40k one doesn't sweat with maintaining continuous blocking. My 40k tank is also all reinforced with 5x Plaque; however, I play around with the other 5-piece set with other dps set, such as Spriggan, Twin Sisters, Syvarra, etc. I actually like rolling around with my hybrid dps than the 65k tank toon. I find it more efficient, and I'm sure it will also be effective in vet trials and probably even vMoL. Well, I guess I wouldn't know unless I try it, but against any world or vet dungeon boss, my 40k tank is quite effective. I can switch mode to dps when others around don't know how to dps or what a rotation of skill is. Still, both tank are virtually indestructible. Ha ha0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Giles.floydub17_ESO Wings is *very* buggy in PvP. Not only the debuff and double mitigation issues people have mentioned, but sometimes they just don't reflect things they should when they should. Sometimes you are hitting wings but the animation doesn't happen. And while I haven't seen it in a while, there's a way for bow snipers to bypass Wings. It wasn't really an exploit because players would do it with normal play, but some players were abusing the heck out of it. Maybe ZOS quietly fixed that.
With the lag in PvP, it's very hard to be responsive with wings. This is particularly an issue with Javelin and Stonefist now that they travel so fast. It feels like there's a delay before Wings actually begin reflecting, because blocking and dodging projectiles is much more reliable.
Do you pvp? I have issues with wings. First it doesnt reflect or protect from debuffs. Also i think that there is a cd an you can reflect max 4 projectiles in 6 seconds, it doesnt matter how much you spam the skill.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »I have not had an issue with wings and have not heard of it happening to others.
That would be worth testing to verify.
I still use wings reluctantly. Every time I take it off I regret it shortly thereafter and put them back on. Given the current popularity of Destructive Reach, the popularity of Javelin now that it's the only templar CC, and then the sheer numbers of sorcs and bow snipers, wings gets a lot of use.
I keep trying to reflect cliffracers though. 0