DK skills vs Warden skills

Bashev · May 2017

Long time ago DK's community created a topic with proposals how to buff mDKS (link). I can find some of these changes implemented into the warden class and leaving DK class with expensive and worse skills.

DK's community wanted one of the wings morphs to absorb projectiles and give major heroism. Warden received that skill which is 60% cheaper than the DK skill and also can restore till 77% of the skill cost if you absorb 3 projectiles.

Another skill that DK's community wanted improved was dragon blood. We proposed changes to be based on your health rather than on your missing health and also add a HoT. Guess what? Warden got that skill and of course their skill is 7% cheaper.

DK's AoE root is also 26% more expensive than Wardens AoE root.

DK's pull is 32% more expensive too than Warden's one.

So at the end it looks like that ZoS listen to us but they just implement the things that we want in another class.

My analyses are based on http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Lughlongarm · May 2017

Your point being?
DK is in a bad spot? out of the meta?

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

And you forgot to mention:
1)Warden root don't have 100% minor maim on their AOE root, only proc chance and no synergy option which result in much better DPS on tank builds compared to the damage on warden aoe root.

2) Warden Max health heal is only 20% of max health(down from the 33% of missing health of DK), 10% on activation 10% HOT(and no Magica morph). Who has the better heal option for tanks? Who can restore 20k health non cirt with one skill on a tanky build?

Warden pull, much less reliable compared to the DK one in both PVE and PVP situations.

Wing · May 2017

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

Vaoh · May 2017

Wing wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

He isn't wrong.

Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.

In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.

With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.

Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.

Now you know

(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)

Wing · May 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

He isn't wrong.

Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.

In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.

With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.

Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.

Now you know

(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)

this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.

Vaoh · May 2017

Wing wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

He isn't wrong.

Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.

In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.

With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.

Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.

Now you know

(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)

this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.

It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.

Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.

Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it

Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.

The_Red_Viper · May 2017

If you played warden yourself you would realize that they aren't OP or P2W like the other morons that share your idea seem to think. Infact I would go as far to say that they are lacking. Now stop creating whiny posts because the class you play didn't get buffed.

Bashev · May 2017

The_Red_Viper wrote: »

If you played warden yourself you would realize that they aren't OP or P2W like the other morons that share your idea seem to think. Infact I would go as far to say that they are lacking. Now stop creating whiny posts because the class you play didn't get buffed.

I have never said that wardens are OP. I just wanted to point the difference of the cost of very similar skills. My post is more for adjusting the cost of the DKs skills.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · May 2017

Bashev wrote: »

The_Red_Viper wrote: »

If you played warden yourself you would realize that they aren't OP or P2W like the other morons that share your idea seem to think. Infact I would go as far to say that they are lacking. Now stop creating whiny posts because the class you play didn't get buffed.

I have never said that wardens are OP. I just wanted to point the difference of the cost of very similar skills. My post is more for adjusting the cost of the DKs skills.

You can't cherry pick individual skills and compare them without looking at the big picture.

MaxwellC · May 2017

@Bashev
Very true, it is also funny that when we asked for skills to have a reduce cost we instead get 3 which, based off my stam DK already does not cost as much. We asked for a ton of changes and got maybe 2% of those changes and if anyone thinks that the change to igneous shield (which was nerfing major mending on it again) made DKs the ideal tank build... yeah nope you are most definitely high.
Shield build has been around forever, that just goes to show how much you know or play the DK class.

Bashev · May 2017

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The_Red_Viper wrote: »

If you played warden yourself you would realize that they aren't OP or P2W like the other morons that share your idea seem to think. Infact I would go as far to say that they are lacking. Now stop creating whiny posts because the class you play didn't get buffed.

I have never said that wardens are OP. I just wanted to point the difference of the cost of very similar skills. My post is more for adjusting the cost of the DKs skills.

You can't cherry pick individual skills and compare them without looking at the big picture.

Enlighten me about the big picture? That Wardens have 12% magicka recovery and they have a skill that restore 4029 magicka recovery for 25 seconds?
For 25 seconds I generate 75 ultimate and this is 75*46 = 3450 magicka back but my ulti is gone. If you keep it then you lose recovery.

Bashev · May 2017

MaxwellC wrote: »

@Bashev
Very true, it is also funny that when we asked for skills to have a reduce cost we instead get 3 which, based off my stam DK already does not cost as much. We asked for a ton of changes and got maybe 2% of those changes and if anyone thinks that the change to igneous shield (which was nerfing major mending on it again) made DKs the ideal tank build... yeah nope you are most definitely high.
Shield build has been around forever, that just goes to show how much you know or play the DK class.

Yep the shield build was there. I play mainly PvP and run 4 man dungeons for gear. Once I explained my build to a PvE player and explained to him why I think it is way better to play with 70k health and 3k magicka recovery casting shields and they laugh at me. The more important the build is stronger than block build because it also mitigates the aoe damage that is unblockable.

GreenhaloX · May 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

He isn't wrong.

Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.

In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.

With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.

Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.

Now you know

(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)

this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.

It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.

Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.

Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.

Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."

75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.

I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!

Vaoh · May 2017

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

He isn't wrong.

Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.

In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.

With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.

Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.

Now you know

(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)

this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.

It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.

Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.

Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.

Ok.. "Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice."

75-80k is the new tanking meta.. really, are you pulling my leg?! I have two tanks in my arsenal of toons. One being a hybrid/dps sitting at 40k hp, and the other with 60k hp, strictly rolling around just for show. For the 60k one, I'm pushing all limits in health glyphs, enchant, boost/buff, whatnot, just to get it that high. The problem with this is, it is utterly useless for any end game group activity. My other attributes for this hp tank are crap. You're sacrificing all other attributes as well as the max weapon/spell damage. You can't run that in end game. You need some decent majicka and stamina pool as well to sustain the block and hp regen. That low resources during the blocking is short lived with any higher end, higher impact damaging bosses/targets. Even trying to tank world bosses is a bit more challenging than normal. So, how the hell would 75-80k be the new tank meta, when 60k tank is utterly crap?!! The 40k tank is very effective, however.. the 60k, not so much.

I'm definitely missing something here, then.. damn. I have all kind of toon in my arsenal, from stam/mag DKs, MagSorc to StamPlar and NB, and my fav to roll around with is still the StamDK, especially when soloing; higher resistance and better management of resources and sustainability. Granted the sorc has that sick arse shield and quite devastating in a group, but that damn Igneous Shield is crap for a DK. Also granted, Morrowind hasn't hit yet for console, but if you all are saying the shield for a DK is getting that buff, that is a sign of optimism and something else positive to shift the balance for me to be more intrigued in staying on with Morrowind release. Oh yes, you do get a bit better shield for a DK tank, but it is still crap for the StamDK. I'm still shaking my head over that. How the hell you're getting some what of a good shield for a DK tank, but not for a stam?! Man, what the?!

It's odd, I know. Also you certainly don't have to take my word for it..... feel free to ignore, but if you are an endgame PvE tank who runs HM Vet trials with really good groups then this is the new way to go.

You can reach those amounts of health with Plague Doctor+Green Pact. The other tank would run Plague Doctor+Ebon Armory. Obsidian Shield will scale off of those Health amounts and grant the huge damage shield to your allies.

Stam DKs should not get a good shield btw. You're a Stam character lol.

Stam DKs benefit from Obsidian shield thanks to 2.5sec Major Mending and class passives activating.

Lughlongarm · May 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

He isn't wrong.

Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.

In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.

With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.

Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.

Now you know

(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)

this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.

It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.

Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.

Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.

Several things changed.

1. I'm not sure, but I think "Obsidian Shield" used to scale out of max magica and not max health(i could be wrong)

2. DK key passives, battle roar and helping hands changed to scale out of max level and not max resource, which means much less incentive to stack lots of stamina and much more magica sustain on DK stmina builds(so more free magica for Obsidian Shield). Because DK tank now has no incentive to stack any stat other than health, they can maximize the potential of both "Obsidian Shield" and green dragon blood. The result is getting the best defense build in the game with 70k+ hp with 20k+ heal when it most needed(non crit and without mending) + best tank support ability giving huge dmg shield to all party.

Green Pact+Plague Doctor FTW.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · May 2017

Bashev wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The_Red_Viper wrote: »

If you played warden yourself you would realize that they aren't OP or P2W like the other morons that share your idea seem to think. Infact I would go as far to say that they are lacking. Now stop creating whiny posts because the class you play didn't get buffed.

I have never said that wardens are OP. I just wanted to point the difference of the cost of very similar skills. My post is more for adjusting the cost of the DKs skills.

You can't cherry pick individual skills and compare them without looking at the big picture.

Enlighten me about the big picture? That Wardens have 12% magicka recovery and they have a skill that restore 4029 magicka recovery for 25 seconds?
For 25 seconds I generate 75 ultimate and this is 75*46 = 3450 magicka back but my ulti is gone. If you keep it then you lose recovery.

The point I'm trying to make, is that class comparisons are stupid. Why? Because each class has their strengths and weaknesses. Trying to equate them just because you feel that Wardens have it and therefore DK's should as well, leads to what happened to WoW where every class could do the same things. AKA, homogeneity. That was the breaking point that made me give up on WoW. Threads like this have the stench of WoW forum complaint threads and it makes me uneasy.

I won't / can't let that happen to this game. Over my dead body.

BohnT · May 2017

The damn meta stole my tank build

Looks like i have to find something new but eventually the meta catches all of us

TheStealthDude · May 2017

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

The change to "Obsidian Shield" alone, makes DK the best tank by far. DPS DK's surpass Wardens by far.

are you high?

the skill got only nerfed, how does having a skill nerfed make you the best tank by far?

He isn't wrong.

Obsidian Shield in Morrowind is the single reason that Dragonknights far surpass any other tank spec.

In the past, superior tanks were DKs thanks to their great class actives & passives. Of course, there are those very few people that tried to make other classes work because they liked them, but still DKs were best.

With Morrowind, we see Wardens stand as the 2nd best tank spec. It is still behind DK by quite a lot though.

Why is Obsidian Shield this great, you might ask? Well, if you stack 75K-80K+ health (aka the new tanking meta) you can grant massive damage shields to both yourself and allies. We are talking 10K+ damage shields per cast to your group. It is unbelievably strong, and is very usable in practice.

Now you know

(If on console, buy your Plague Doctor/Green Pact gear before prices skyrocket!)

this was not a morrowind thing, this has been a thing at least as far back as one tam, probably farther? I saw the build on tamriel foundry and tried it out for a dungeon or two, boring as sin, spec'd out within a few days.

It was not always like this though. Something changed with Morrowind. The meta has shifted and now I'm seeing all of the really good trial tanks using this build.

Idk exactly what it was - don't really pay attention to every detail on tanking changes because I'm a damage dealer.

Also doesn't matter how boring you thought it was. Didn't look very boring when I watched ppl do it Either way, it's extremely effective to a point where no other class could compare.

I've been playing it for a few months now. It's definitely been effective for a while before Morrowind (and it is more boring, I agree). The "nerf" to battle roar was a nice buff for this build, as was the "nerf" to helping hands. Other than that, there were no changes to this specific build that buffed it. What changed was the increased block cost for perma-block builds, essentially doubling their stamina costs for blocking in intense fights. Shield-tanks don't need to block everything, thus allowing for sustain via heavy attacks and allowing stamina to be used more for utility.

idk · May 2017

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

Bashev · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

idk · May 2017

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root? Winters revenge is for pulling enemies. I am not familiar liar with all the warden skills but t only see its sister morph, grilling shards with a hard CC and it's a stun. Not as useful as a root due to CC immunity.

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

@Bashev

DocFrost72 · May 2017

Y'all are making me want to make a DK health tank now.

Bashev · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root?

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.

subtlezeroub17_ESO · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root? Winters revenge is for pulling enemies. I am not familiar liar with all the warden skills but t only see its sister morph, grilling shards with a hard CC and it's a stun. Not as useful as a root due to CC immunity.

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

@Bashev

That's the thing. There is no other reason except, "because Wardens have it" .

That's all this thread amounts to.

For instance, he mentions that all the costs of the skills he's comparing to are more expensive, yet he fails to realize that:

-The DK root has an additional Synergy. Synergy effects interact with different passives providing benefit for whomever activates said synergy. Meanwhile, the root also causes Minor maim to all effected enemies ( or flame DoT damage), and due to burning heart, also increases healing done by 12%. On the flip side, Wardens can only immobilize "after" they've used the morph and that's all it does is root and afflict a snare from the frost status affect.

-The DK chain is targeted and thus easier to use on the fly. Once again, it does damage, grants , major expedition, snares and has the added benefit of restoring mana if the target has not been pulled. On the flip side, the Wardens frozen device, while it does inflict minor maimand a root, is ground targeted and can be dodged. Not to mention, it must be casted and placed repeatedly if you want to catch multiple mooks.

So yeah. The costs of the DK skills are justified when you look at the big picture and how ALL skills and passives interact with each other.

idk · May 2017

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root?

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.

As I stated before, warden has to choose between that "stun" you mention (it's not a root) and the other morph which is their pull. They cannot have both as you mentioned earlier. So the warden utility isn't exactly as is depicted in the OP.

I've not looked at the rest of what is in the OP as I cannot easily compare skills while in my iPhone.

Bashev · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root?

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.

As I stated before, warden has to choose between that "stun" you mention (it's not a root) and the other morph which is their pull. They cannot have both as you mentioned earlier. So the warden utility isn't exactly as is depicted in the OP.

I've not looked at the rest of what is in the OP as I cannot easily compare skills while in my iPhone.

I have never mentioned any stun. When you go hope reared my post, check DK skills, check warden skills and then we can discuss again.

idk · May 2017

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root? Winters revenge is for pulling enemies. I am not familiar liar with all the warden skills but t only see its sister morph, grilling shards with a hard CC and it's a stun. Not as useful as a root due to CC immunity.

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

@Bashev

That's the thing. There is no other reason except, "because Wardens have it" .

That's all this thread amounts to.

Yes. I am aware and pointing out the information on warden skills is inaccurate. If what I've mentioned points out a flaw about two skills I. The OP I really question the entire comparison.

idk · May 2017

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root?

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.

As I stated before, warden has to choose between that "stun" you mention (it's not a root) and the other morph which is their pull. They cannot have both as you mentioned earlier. So the warden utility isn't exactly as is depicted in the OP.

I've not looked at the rest of what is in the OP as I cannot easily compare skills while in my iPhone.

I have never mentioned any stun. When you go hope reared my post, check DK skills, check warden skills and then we can discuss again.

Ok. Yes, it's a root. But t as I pointed out with my first post it's the other morph that's is the equivalent of chains. Your first reply to me is that both the pull and root could be slots at the same time.

You said:

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

They're both morphs of Impaling Shards. I have provided a link to information on the warden skill line to shed some light on this for you.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Warden

Bashev · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root?

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.

As I stated before, warden has to choose between that "stun" you mention (it's not a root) and the other morph which is their pull. They cannot have both as you mentioned earlier. So the warden utility isn't exactly as is depicted in the OP.

I've not looked at the rest of what is in the OP as I cannot easily compare skills while in my iPhone.

I have never mentioned any stun. When you go hope reared my post, check DK skills, check warden skills and then we can discuss again.

Ok. Yes, it's a root. But t as I pointed out with my first post it's the other morph that's is the equivalent of chains. Your first reply to me is that both the pull and root could be slots at the same time.

You said:

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

They're both morphs of Impaling Shards. I have provided a link to information on the warden skill line to shed some light on this for you.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Warden

I dont know what are you talking about. I added some img of the skills. The other morph of the root is a dps morph and the skill make magicka based damage and it can be casted as eruption.

idk · May 2017

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root?

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.

As I stated before, warden has to choose between that "stun" you mention (it's not a root) and the other morph which is their pull. They cannot have both as you mentioned earlier. So the warden utility isn't exactly as is depicted in the OP.

I've not looked at the rest of what is in the OP as I cannot easily compare skills while in my iPhone.

I have never mentioned any stun. When you go hope reared my post, check DK skills, check warden skills and then we can discuss again.

Ok. Yes, it's a root. But t as I pointed out with my first post it's the other morph that's is the equivalent of chains. Your first reply to me is that both the pull and root could be slots at the same time.

You said:

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

They're both morphs of Impaling Shards. I have provided a link to information on the warden skill line to shed some light on this for you.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Warden

I dont know what are you talking about. I added some img of the skills. The other morph of the root is a dps morph and the skill make magicka based damage and it can be casted as eruption.

I suggest you look at the images you yourself have posted. Summoning the gate is not equivalent to the dk chain pull. You cannot target anything directly and must hope the targets don't move before it hits the ground.

Granted, it has some interesting possible applications but it's not equivalent to chains.

Bashev · May 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

Then what is the warden root?

And why does a solid dps clsss and tank class need a buff?

Gripping Shards is the AoE root.
It is solid in PvE where mobs cast skills every 2 seconds and you can cast your skills every 5 seconds and you will be fine.
In the PvP world where you play vs intelligent enemies and when you add the poisons then these expensive skills are in a bad position compared to the warden skills. Why because they have 90% the same utility but the warden ones are cheaper.

As I stated before, warden has to choose between that "stun" you mention (it's not a root) and the other morph which is their pull. They cannot have both as you mentioned earlier. So the warden utility isn't exactly as is depicted in the OP.

I've not looked at the rest of what is in the OP as I cannot easily compare skills while in my iPhone.

I have never mentioned any stun. When you go hope reared my post, check DK skills, check warden skills and then we can discuss again.

Ok. Yes, it's a root. But t as I pointed out with my first post it's the other morph that's is the equivalent of chains. Your first reply to me is that both the pull and root could be slots at the same time.

You said:

Bashev wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

I like how OP has the root and pull comparisons need each other. To the best of my knowledge they are different morphs of the same skill so a warden cannot have both.

Really helps to be accurate with these comparisons.

Why have DKs needed buffing? They have been a strong dps class most of the game has have been the most favored tank.

The skills that I listed for the warden are different and all of them can be slotted. They are not morphs from the same skill.

They're both morphs of Impaling Shards. I have provided a link to information on the warden skill line to shed some light on this for you.

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Warden

I dont know what are you talking about. I added some img of the skills. The other morph of the root is a dps morph and the skill make magicka based damage and it can be casted as eruption.

I suggest you look at the images you yourself have posted. Summoning the gate is not equivalent to the dk chain pull. You cannot target anything directly and must hope the targets don't move before it hits the ground.

Granted, it has some interesting possible applications but it's not equivalent to chains.

In pvp the gate will work more reliably than the chains

, at least you can cast it