Non Dk Tank Suggestions & General NB Stuff

aeowulf

Had an idea last night re NB tank skills - if (presumably) shadow will become our tanking line, then cloak as it stands does not fit in well to tanking. It could be changed so that one morph acts as it does which is provide 4 secs of invis and a first strike guaranteed crit, the other morph provides 2 secs of invis and first strike guaranteed crit to the group, but NOT to the NB. This would mean all mobs initially target the NB rather than run all over the place because we have no AE root, although i was experimenting again with caltrops last night. It would also be unique group utility.

Teleport strike could be viable for roughly the same 'root' effect too - not sure on it's radius.

Alternatively major evasion is renamed to minor evasion. It's a long term buff at 15% & most minor skills are long term at 10% ish. Then cloak could be changed to invis for 4 secs, but if you'd recently taken damage you get a new major evasion which is 25% for 4 secs.

rafaelcsmaia

actosh wrote: »

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Finn @ZOS_MattFiror

@Lapin_Logic @Brrrofski @aeowulf @Anastian @esoub17_ESO12 @AllPlayAndNoWork @Lynx7386 @crobarXIII @Liofa @Gilliamtherogue @paulsimonps @Woeler

Hey, since ZOS stated that they want to keep all classes viable in all roles across all content this is my take on Tanking with the different classes wich is since release until now purely dominated by Dragonknights. Sure you can do basicly everything in the game as a non dk tank, but lets be honest, you could do all of that way better if you would play a Dk, since additional offhealing
offdpsing isnt a usefull addition to your groups.

Eric Wrobel told me that they are always open for suggestions (sure they have their vision how the game should be) and that i should post it for visibility and constructive discussion into the PTS forum, so here we are

I honestly hope we can have a constructive discussion without dk´s feeling to be obsolete in the future. If u have additional suggestions please feel free to post them here in a constructive way. Thanks a lot and you better get a coffee before you start reading the wall of text.


About me:
I have Tanked basicly all the stuff there is with all 4 classes and i have spend way to much money to test
out different builds/playstyles on each of the classes. The main goal should be to make all the other classes viable tanks
and considerable choices for endgametanking, without making dk´s obsolete or useless. This should be the main goal.
Keep in mind that this is all feedback based on my experience Tanking all stuff with each of the 4 classes. Reaching from
boring pledges up to endgame veteran hardmode trials.



Before we start, lets see what most group´s expect us to do as Tanks in the Elder Scrolls Online.

- Self Sustaining Stam/Mag without crying permanently for Shards/Orbs
- Support dps with buffs/debuffs (Alkosh/Warhorn ect)
- Control the Battlefield (basicly preventing mobs via root/chaining to *** our dps/heals. Stack stuff to burn it down.)
- Protect the Group as good as we can ( or as good as ZOS gives us the tools to do so *looking at you boneshield u useless piece of crap*)
- Keep Aggro (that was obvious wasnt it ^^)
- Staying alive (that was obvious wasnt it ^^)
- Chain/pull stuff together so it can be killed fast

Now lets see what makes dk´s totaly awesome Tanks in every Dungeon/trial in the game and compare them to the non dk Tanks.

CHAINING ENEMYS IN
Dragonknight
- Chains
Well, they have been more powerfull in the past where you could have chained stuff that is now unchainable.

Non-Dk Tanks
- Swarm Mother Monster Set
While this set was a step into the right direction it needs some serious tweaking to be more effective and to prevent for example silver leash(only usefull skill to fill that role after a rework) to become a pull like chains are.

Options to solve this issue and to make other tanks competitive:
1: Swarm Mother rework
- Couple the 2nd Bonus to the Undaunted taunt (inner fire). If u activate it the targetet enemy is pulled directly to you (1 sec cooldown).
- Rework the Setbonus since non dk tanks are limited since they cant wear another monster set.

Right now set bonus is: (1piece) Stamreg (2piece) the pull thing
Suggested Change: (1 piece) Armor/Spellresistance (2piece) When you use the undaunted taunt you pull the enemy directly to you. +Healthbonus like on chudan.
That way it would still offer some tank related stats and give a pullability to non dk tanks. Chaining enemys in is almost a neccesity and this would be a elegant solution for this.
This way all non dk tanks need to give up 2 Slots on their gear and still have ressource cost to pull a enemy, while leaving dk´s the option to use another 2 piece set.

2: Silver Leash rework
Definitly not my favored solution, but just revert the funcion so that you pull a enemy to you with the silver leash.
Since it costs stamina it still leaves a advantage to dk´s chains only costing magicka.



CROWD CONTROL
Dragonknight
- Talons
No need to explain anything, a pretty awesome skill used by tanks and mag dps.

Non Dk Tanks
Sorcerer has encase, wich is pretty decent for immobilizing enemys.

NB/Templars have no such skill that could help them to root enemys.

Options to make them a bit more competitive in that area without making them all to equal.
Templar: Shards could be a nice ability to apply a strong slow on enemys in the area of effect.
Nightblades: Path or Drain Power( both morphs ) could get a slow enemys down effect to add something to their crowd control skills. Duration max 4 seconds!

This way a pure root will always be stronger and preferable compared to slow´s no matter how strong they are but it would give classes without a root aviable tool to control them a bit.


Groupshielding
Dragonknight
- Obsidian Shield & Morphs
Lets be honest, that skill is just awesome, u get to protect your team by shielding you and 5 Group Members (if in range wich is pretty high). Additionly you also restore Stamina. That Skill is a perfect example for an Ability that is only really effective on Tank Builds(Dps Builds never get this skill to a usefull level). It also opens up the possibility to go for a High HP Build since the Shield increases for you and your allies the higher your health gets and can be further boosted by Bastion.

Non Dk Tanks
- Bone Shield
Our only option to shield allies compared to Obsidian Shield.
Bone shield has a few drawbacks that just make it totaly inferior to Obsidian, those are:

- Requires 1 Ally to press the Synergy so that you and 3 allies get shieled.
- Limited usage due to the Synergy Cooldown.
- Range is way to small (think its 5 meters, wich is worse, cause most bosses are so big, that an ally only get the chance to use the synergie if they stack with you)

Possible Solution:
- Get rid of the Synergy (or make the synergy do a special bonus but dont make it necessary to activate the shield in the first place)
- Raise the range equal to Obsidian (around 10-12 meters)
- make the shield allies get a fixed value (6k would be perfect)or let it scale with casters health(allies get 50% of the shield value the caster gets.
Shield strenght for caster is still based on 30% of your health as before.
- Shield needs to apply to the Caster and 5 allies
- 1 Stam Morph/ 1 Magicka Morph to give also Magicka Based tanks an option to shield their group since they mostly conserve their stam for break free/dodge/block.

With this solution they are equal to dk tanks, IF the dk decides to only stay at 30k health. If Dk Tank decides to go for full group shield build via high hp and bastion cp, he has a unique advantage over the other classes wich is needed.


Ressource Management
Dragonknight
I think we can agree that Dk´s have the best ressource sustain on a Tank focused build. Earthen Heart skills return 990 Stam on each use of a skill in that skillline. Battleroar, even it has been nerfed, provide them with the best ressourcemanagement while blocking constantly. They can also if done right basicly almost never ever run out of ressources if they use a, lets call it rotation of
Equilibrium (mages guild skill) and Obsidian shield. You may argue that Equilibrium will cost you health, but due to all the overhealing in ESO you are hardly ever gonna notice it. You can do all of that while still holding block. So overall as a Tank Build nice Management.

Sorcerer
Basicly they have due to Dark Deal/Dark Exchange better ressource on demand management than a dk can ever achieve. Sure you have top drop block to use it effectively, but every boss in the game has a wide enough time frame where you can do that without ever risking to get hit by the Boss. Works in every Trial/Dungeon, just have to get used to the Enemy´s Attack patterns.
Also a super candidate for using Equilibrium, if u can play with a bit of foresight u cast equilibrium to get Magicka back, and wait 4 seconds after that you cast dark deal and you can also recover the health lost +additional health and a sick chunk of Stam.

Since Dark Deal is still totaly strong you should consider a rework so that the skill gives the ressources back over lets say 10seconds. Would bring it more in line with other ressource restoration skills.

Templar
Oh boy........make shards restore on synergy use also restore stam to the caster and add a 15sec cooldown to the restore thing for the caster. Nothing more to say. Ressource management basicly non existing besides Heavy attacking.

Nightblades
We once had siphoning strikes, and it got killed like nothing else before. The reworked version is kinda okayish but it needs additional tweaks as it basicly enforces you to use light attacks and has zero effect on heavy attacks. Believe me ZOS, every NB Tank, knows how and when to light attack weave.

Suggested tweaks:
- both morphs should return 200 stam/mag on light attack.
- both morphs should return 400 stam/mag on Heavy attack
- the heal should be at least tripled when using a heavy attack. (similar to the warden(he got a skill where la heals and ha attack heals for even more
and to encourage heavy attacking)
- heavy attacks should be executed 35% faster (similar to "Haste" we had in the beginning and to fit your vision of nb´s being fast and such.
- light/heavy attacks should proc "Soul Siphoner" as long as Siphoning Strikes & morphs is up and you are light/heavy attacking.


Thats it for the ressource management part.


Nightblade Tank suggestions

Summon Shade -> Dark Shades
You mentioned in the patch 3.0.5 Notes that NB Tanks use Path & Shades to keep a 100% uptime on Shadow Ward. Therefore i think you should add something to the Shades to make it a considerable choice compared to heroic slash (what almost all nb tanks use, since shades dont offer that much). Let me elaborate:

Shadow Ward can be kept up with path alone after the recent chanced to the passives duration wich was a huge improvement. Thanks for that. Here are my suggestion s to improve the Dark Shades and give Nb tanks something unique.

- Should apply minor main to max 3 enemys in a 5 meter radius (splashdmg type thing). Would be a must have change to make it a competitor to heroic/deep slash so nb tanks have something unique to them as u once said class skills should be something special.
- should either offer dmg mitigation for the caster or apply minor fracture/breach (to have a alternative to templers casting it). One of those two and the skill shoul be pretty fine.

Drain Power -> Power Extraction
As stated somewhere above, this skill should get a additional effect and that would be a max 4 seconds lasting slow to get a bit more of battlefield control. If u want to add a little bit more power to it (dmg is not worth mentioning as a tank) the skill could give wep/spell dmg to the group for a short period of time.

Those changes coupled with the change to silver leash & swarm mother would bring nb tanks up with a special flavor and would not make them to powerfull.

Nightblade Tank Synergyoptions for the group

Well the only synergys we can offer are tied to 2 of our 3 ultimate abilitys. The perfect candidate for a synergy would be path(shadow skill line). To do this you are free to remove the synergys from our 2 ultimates.

Veil of Blades should get a passive 8%dmg mitigation for being slotted. With the removal of the synergy this would make the skill worth more.



General Nightblade Suggestions

Grim Focus:
- Increase the duration by 4-5 seconds or let it be ready after 4 Light Attacks. That way you ensure we can fire 3 Spectral Arrows resulting in more dps wich NB needs a bit to get more in line with the other classes as Damge Dealer.

Mark Target:
- The perfect candidate to implement "minor stamina steal(returns 300 stam per attack)". That would give u the option to lessen the gap in the ability cost between mag and stam (stam actually 15% cheaper). In addition the skill should be available in a weapon skill line. Perfect candidate would be 2Hands Cleave Skill. This would encourage 2Handed as more of a support weapon since it would be too good if it was in the dw skill line.

Criple -> Debilitate: Make it a stammorph as it would fit the theme you see for Nightblades. Would also help stam nb dps to close the gap a bit. This idea was basicly posted for ages among the nb community.

Cloak & Morphs: oh boy.......can we have the skill work like in the old days? Wouldnt mind a cost increase like Streak has to prevent spamming.

Passives: since you said in eso live that you want nb´s to be sneaky, hard to catch and to pin down, "minor evasion" should be put in as a passive to fit your vision.


That was all i had in mind so far after all the playtime in ESO. I hope to see some constructive discussion about non dk tanks and if u have to add something for any class please post it in a easy to read and friendly manor, since flamming wont get us anywhere. I also like to see some moderator keep the thread clean and delete useless non constructive posts. Thanks a lot and have a nice day.

Ps: Wont be able to read for the next 2 weeks since i´m on vacation. Have a great day and enjoy playing.

Greets Actosh

Nice post, i really feel that no one would allow a non dk tank in a serious raid and thats a little sad. About the sorcerer, i believe they should rework dark deal so it can be used while blocking and at the same time, make a cooldown in a way that if you spam it, it increases cost (pretty much like streak). This would make it not OP, even in PVP scenarios while allowing sorc to manage resources better while blocking, without the risk of getting nuked while casting.

However, one can only dream, since zos seems to be open for suggestions, but closed for anything but their own opinion.

aeowulf

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Nice post, i really feel that no one would allow a non dk tank in a serious raid and thats a little sad. About the sorcerer, i believe they should rework dark deal so it can be used while blocking and at the same time, make a cooldown in a way that if you spam it, it increases cost (pretty much like streak). This would make it not OP, even in PVP scenarios while allowing sorc to manage resources better while blocking, without the risk of getting nuked while casting.

However, one can only dream, since zos seems to be open for suggestions, but closed for anything but their own opinion.

It would be a massive buff in PVP and for sorc tanks in PVE. Sorc were the only class not to get a significant change to class based sustain changes in morrowind, which could be argued left them with the best sustain in the game <right now>. How much stamina or magicka can you get back in 1 second?

That said the change to executioner passive is a nice improvement, I really do notice stamina coming back, vs the previous magicka which was pretty useless to me. But wow does it require some timing to pull off. Now I need to predict the future (bit like your skill!) ideally on lottery nights.

Xvorg

aeowulf wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Nice post, i really feel that no one would allow a non dk tank in a serious raid and thats a little sad. About the sorcerer, i believe they should rework dark deal so it can be used while blocking and at the same time, make a cooldown in a way that if you spam it, it increases cost (pretty much like streak). This would make it not OP, even in PVP scenarios while allowing sorc to manage resources better while blocking, without the risk of getting nuked while casting.

However, one can only dream, since zos seems to be open for suggestions, but closed for anything but their own opinion.

It would be a massive buff in PVP and for sorc tanks in PVE. Sorc were the only class not to get a significant change to class based sustain changes in morrowind, which could be argued left them with the best sustain in the game <right now>. How much stamina or magicka can you get back in 1 second?

That said the change to executioner passive is a nice improvement, I really do notice stamina coming back, vs the previous magicka which was pretty useless to me. But wow does it require some timing to pull off. Now I need to predict the future (bit like your skill!) ideally on lottery nights.

well, the dmg line of NBs has an execute, a gap closer, 2 buffs (one that has a proc), one debuff and a cheap ulti. So the passive is kind of tricky because we have no spammable.

In turn, the destro staff line has a similar passive and a spammable skil (force shock), while the 2H line has a passive that increases stam return after killing.

So, imho, the best way to use the new executioner for magicka chars is to include a assa skill during the rotation and killing with the spammable (2 passives proc), while for a stam, just having the 2H weapon when killing with killers blade/incap is more tha enough

Lynx7386

I'm tagged here but not quite sure why...

aeowulf

Xvorg wrote: »

well, the dmg line of NBs has an execute, a gap closer, 2 buffs (one that has a proc), one debuff and a cheap ulti. So the passive is kind of tricky because we have no spammable.

In turn, the destro staff line has a similar passive and a spammable skil (force shock), while the 2H line has a passive that increases stam return after killing.

So, imho, the best way to use the new executioner for magicka chars is to include a assa skill during the rotation and killing with the spammable (2 passives proc), while for a stam, just having the 2H weapon when killing with killers blade/incap is more tha enough

Yes - if you are a DD you will probably be using a destro staff or melee weapon, which are non-class specific weapons. This however is a thread about non-dk (class specific) tanking. Although I would probably add that wardens are in a good tanking place right now too. Tanks do not get a 'spammable', well not these days anyway.

My rotation when tanking on NB included Mirage (blur) but this would not proc the new passive. If i go back to NB tanking, I will either be looking at either lotus fan or Impale. I won't change classes, my main (imperial nb) has about 21k achievement points - that's far too much now to even consider playing an alt. (also i found dk & warden tanking a bit boring, but that's just me i guess) I'll probably tool up my argonian nb alt at some point with my old tanking gear, see what happens.

Urza1234

actosh wrote: »

Templar
Oh boy........make shards restore on synergy use also restore stam to the caster and add a 15sec cooldown to the restore thing for the caster. Nothing more to say. Ressource management basicly non existing besides Heavy attacking.

Channeled Focus IV: 1080 Magicka
Create a rune of celestial protection, which defends you while you stand within it and for up to 8 seconds after leaving it. The rune grants you Major Resolve and Major Ward, increasing your Physical Resistance and Spell Resistance by 5280. You also recover 120 Magicka every 0.5 seconds. Reduces the cost, and the rune also recovers Magicka.

If your evaluation of a class's resource management considers only stamina gen then you have a point. Templar's %HP shield costs mag, and if you want to use Mag to block just run frost staff on back bar.

actosh wrote: »

- Support dps with buffs/debuffs (Alkosh/Warhorn ect)

Radiant Aura IV3510 MagickaChampion the cause of divine glory to apply Minor Magickasteal to all enemies around you for 15 seconds, causing you and your allies to restore 300 Magicka every 1 second when damaging them. While slotted, you gain Minor Fortitude, Minor Endurance, and Minor Intellect, increasing your Health, Stamina, and Magicka Recovery by 10%. Increases the radius.

The equivalent of 600 Magicka Recovery on every enemy possible is retardedly good for your group's dps

actosh wrote: »

- Support dps with buffs/debuffs (Alkosh/Warhorn ect)
- Control the Battlefield (basicly preventing mobs via root/chaining to *** our dps/heals. Stack stuff to burn it down.)
- Protect the Group as good as we can ( or as good as ZOS gives us the tools to do so *looking at you boneshield u useless piece of crap*)
- Chain/pull stuff together so it can be killed fast

These are the areas that where DK makes all other tanks look like trash

On the note of NB
One thought I always had for NB tanks was to make a morph Path of Darkness give your group Major Expedition for like 3 seconds after casting it, to help your team avoid boss AoEs.

It would also be neat to have a morph of Blur that didnt suck, perhaps one that gave allies in an area the ability to dodge 1 attack in the next few seconds, similar to the Glorious Defender set. It would be useful on bosses that randomly choose an ally to peg with a massive spell.

One of the Aspect of Terror morphs should honestly just fear enemies in the direction of the caster. Its in the Shadow tree, which I think I can agree is basically the tanking tree, why is this ability currently just useless in PvE?

Summon Shade is basically useless on a tank, I would give it a morph that summons an actual unit that taunts and has a health pool that scales off the tanks max HP. Would be super neat tanking adds, and would be useful on multi-bosses that have a mechanic where you want to split them up, like the final boss of Dragonstar Arena.

You may be able to tell that I tank on both Templar and NB, and that im super disappointed in how the NB tank turned out.

ccfeeling

I cant find any spot for NB tanks in hard content , they can do the same things like other tanks , but it's not efficiency , bad support abilities , bad resource management .
Endless NB nerfing in PVP destoryed this class in PVE .
ZOS do it great !

rafaelcsmaia

aeowulf wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

Nice post, i really feel that no one would allow a non dk tank in a serious raid and thats a little sad. About the sorcerer, i believe they should rework dark deal so it can be used while blocking and at the same time, make a cooldown in a way that if you spam it, it increases cost (pretty much like streak). This would make it not OP, even in PVP scenarios while allowing sorc to manage resources better while blocking, without the risk of getting nuked while casting.

However, one can only dream, since zos seems to be open for suggestions, but closed for anything but their own opinion.

It would be a massive buff in PVP and for sorc tanks in PVE. Sorc were the only class not to get a significant change to class based sustain changes in morrowind, which could be argued left them with the best sustain in the game <right now>. How much stamina or magicka can you get back in 1 second?

That said the change to executioner passive is a nice improvement, I really do notice stamina coming back, vs the previous magicka which was pretty useless to me. But wow does it require some timing to pull off. Now I need to predict the future (bit like your skill!) ideally on lottery nights.

I dont see it as a massive buff in pvp since it can be interrupted even while blocking (read snb ulti), yes it return a lot of resources, but at risk of being bashed and left without any resources and stunned. It actually tones down a bit, with 14k magicka i can basically use it 4 times in a row in pvp and get full stam in 4 seconds, now thats OP, if the cost doubled on every cast below 4 seconds interval, it would be much more balanced.

aeowulf

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I dont see it as a massive buff in pvp since it can be interrupted even while blocking (read snb ulti), yes it return a lot of resources, but at risk of being bashed and left without any resources and stunned. It actually tones down a bit, with 14k magicka i can basically use it 4 times in a row in pvp and get full stam in 4 seconds, now thats OP, if the cost doubled on every cast below 4 seconds interval, it would be much more balanced.

4 seconds you say? wow. From memory leeching strikes has an 900 ish cost, restores 100/second per light attack light attack and then after 20 secs I get about 4k back. To get full stamina. So over 20 secs I get about 3.1k +19*100 = 5k. I have well over 30k stamina so that takes me at least 120 seconds to get a full stamina pool. Slightly more than your 4 seconds to get full stamina.

The change to executioner is welcome and will (probably) help loads with trash. It will not help with say tanking vet AA axes where perma block is needed. it will also not help with:

actosh wrote: »
- Support dps with buffs/debuffs (Alkosh/Warhorn ect)
- Control the Battlefield (basicly preventing mobs via root/chaining to *** our dps/heals. Stack stuff to burn it down.)
- Protect the Group as good as we can ( or as good as ZOS gives us the tools to do so *looking at you boneshield u useless piece of crap*)
- Chain/pull stuff together so it can be killed fast

NB tanks (and actually NB in general) are a very selfish class, but if they cannot do the above, they should atleast be able to do something. Prior to morrowind,NB were probably the highest dps on a very survivable tank, one which got stronger the more mobs there were. That's gone now. In a fight where there is no trash (for example most tough boss fights) the change to executioner helps zero.

Perma block is a HUGE advantage for a tank. You don't need to worry about when to block, instead you can spend more time resource managing, mob managing, checking group resources, rather than being glued to one place on th screen watching for a heavy attack that could happen at any time.

Aeo

Veg

I cant speak for pve but for pvp mDK's are still the best possible tanks. I think the main reason for seeing these tanks is lack of motive for a different playstyle. Obviously everyone wants to be the best at what they do and each class is different. mDK just happens to be the class that excels at tanking AND sucks at everything else.

So maybe the solution isn't to continue increasing block cost and nerfing self healing, but to give each class more motives for playing different roles. A simple 1st step could be giving mDK's a snare removal or a purify. Then they fit more into the playstyle of avoiding damage taken rather than reducing damage taken. That way they can spec more into doing damage rather than tanking.

I think it all comes down to the players first goal and what that goal becomes as they learn their classes mechanics.

rafaelcsmaia

aeowulf wrote: »

rafaelcsmaia wrote: »

I dont see it as a massive buff in pvp since it can be interrupted even while blocking (read snb ulti), yes it return a lot of resources, but at risk of being bashed and left without any resources and stunned. It actually tones down a bit, with 14k magicka i can basically use it 4 times in a row in pvp and get full stam in 4 seconds, now thats OP, if the cost doubled on every cast below 4 seconds interval, it would be much more balanced.

4 seconds you say? wow. From memory leeching strikes has an 900 ish cost, restores 100/second per light attack light attack and then after 20 secs I get about 4k back. To get full stamina. So over 20 secs I get about 3.1k +19*100 = 5k. I have well over 30k stamina so that takes me at least 120 seconds to get a full stamina pool. Slightly more than your 4 seconds to get full stamina.

You realize im actually suggesting a nerf to the skill right? Right now i can spam it and get to full, what im saying is to add a penalty for spamming. Also, i know leeching strikes got destroyed by zos, but this doesnt change the fact non dk tanks need some love, including sorc. Allowing them to permablock would be a nice contribution, but by any means would make em the best tanks, still lack group support.

Urza1234

aeowulf wrote: »

Perma block is a HUGE advantage for a tank. You don't need to worry about when to block, instead you can spend more time resource managing, mob managing, checking group resources, rather than being glued to one place on th screen watching for a heavy attack that could happen at any time.

Aeo

I strongly disagree with this, permablocking to me seems like a crutch. Most things that you need to block are extremely telegraphed, all you need is peripheral vision. I say this with no disrespect intended but if anyone actually absolutely needs to permablock plz dont drive, you may have vision or situational awareness issues that could endanger yourself or others.

aeowulf

so you think all dk's and wardens would be happy to loose perma block? I was certainly not happy when NB lost it and i am pretty sure no other NB tank was either.

Perma block is a big thing, it's a huge reduction in damage & it's a way of not getting yourself smashed round the room, which in turn ruins ground based AE's. If ZOS do not want perma block, then it should be removed from all classes. If they do, and remove it from an 'already underperforming in a tank role' class then there should be something to compensate.

ccfeeling

Igneous Shield , Helping Hands
All non DK tanks want it

Narvuntien

On my Templar tank I seem to be okay resource wise but I also don't have a lot of hp (33k), I am relying on a bunch of shields and I have strong self heals so I only need to block the big hits. I am aa magicka tank, when I take synergies I am getting magicka instead of Stam. I have really high mag regen to try to keep my shields up. Well i don't want to repentance and take it away from my healer or worse they take it form me when I need it.. please remove stealing resources from your ally mechanic

My major issue is just having no CC. I just have to hope my DPS can deal with the trash because I am only going to taunt a couple. I have to use Volcanic rune its okay but not great. I can't keep the adds in place I can't do anything but taunt, debuff and warhorn.

Trapping webs should be reworked into a Chains variant so all class tanks have acess to it, just like Orbs is like templars shards... its a terrible skill atm it has no use.

NB tanks should be Sap tanks, I understand it is an issue for PVP that someone can be unkillable/get stronger when attacked, but that feels like an issue from all these heavy armor sets that give you damage from being hit, that is terribly unbalanced. NBs can quickly generate ultimate which makes them useful for that alone. There needs to be leeching strikes that returns all three resources that is important for tanks!.

Sorcs dark magic skill line should be reworked into the tank skill line, I understand for some reason the hp passives are in the pets skill line. But Dark magic is all these CC skills.. but are only going to use the best CC ability and none of the others. Before the nerf that was Crystal frags... The abilities do give minor prophecy which is okay, but I would like either resource return or ulti gen in there somewhere for Sorc Tanks. At least they have good Trash CC.

The Issue was that there are too many getting hit makes you stronger sets in the game annnd too many resistances sets when Tanks slam right into the resistance caps and can even use those sets, espeically with all the resistances avaiable in CP. I mean tanks can literially run medium armor sets and be actively good tanks almost BIS (Powerful assault and Alkosh).

Argonians right now are objectively the best tank class with the huge resource nerfs in morrowind. This hit tanks particularly hard when most are some form of hybrid, they cannot return all the resourcs they need. DK have helping hands but none of the other classes can.

So in my opinion there are three issues here.
1. Only Dks can effiencently stack mobs with chains.
2. Only Dks (and argonians) can return all three resources which is increasingly important after Morrowind
3. The resistances cap and the large amount of resistances provided just by the CP system makes abilitiy to tank damage (making resistance stats on gear or abilities redunant) less important than doing things like generating ultimate to pop warhorns or debuffing the targets.

aeowulf

Narvuntien wrote: »

Trapping webs should be reworked into a Chains variant so all class tanks have acess to it, just like Orbs is like templars shards... its a terrible skill atm it has no use.

yeah, do agree. Honestly the undaunted tree should probably be the main tanking tree if they are struggling with balance, and classes trees to add flavour to it, or improve certain aspects. Right now it's far too loaded in the direction of DK/Warden.

Nelson_Rebel

So you want to Buff other classes at Tanking but leave DK's as the weakest DPS and Healer class in the game at the same time?


Yeah Ok

actosh

Any news for us @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So you want to Buff other classes at Tanking but leave DK's as the weakest DPS and Healer class in the game at the same time?


Yeah Ok

Weakest dps, stop smokin bad things ^^

Nelson_Rebel

actosh wrote: »

Any news for us @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So you want to Buff other classes at Tanking but leave DK's as the weakest DPS and Healer class in the game at the same time?


Yeah Ok

Weakest dps, stop smokin bad things ^^

They are. They cannot sustain in any trial now either since Off-balance changes destroyed their only DPS reliable sustain.


Mag wardens, now out-parse dk's

aeowulf

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So you want to Buff other classes at Tanking but leave DK's as the weakest DPS and Healer class in the game at the same time?


Yeah Ok

All classes should be viable in all roles, DK healer is another peeve of mine and a search through my posts will find them mentioned often. I was under the impression DK DPS (as in stamDK) was actually in a fairly good place. Only magDK was hurt recently. If you are not choosing to equip the best skills/gear/stats for your chosen role that is not a class issue, thats a personal preference thing - ESO allows that and seems to try to encourage it, flavour is good.

Vs DK Healer, NB tank, Templar tank - ALL in a 'rarely seen in dungeon finder' place. How often do you see those in finder in a vet dungeon? The only times I see NB or templar these days are as 'fake tanks' (dps with max cp so no tank needed kinda thing) & magDK are represented in finder fairly well. So still viable according to 'players still playing them'. The gap should be as minimal as possible between all classes for each role, whilst still retaining max flavour for the class. It's gotta be a really tough thing to balance. Morrowind hit NB & templar tank sustain really hard, net result is there are still borderline none playing. It's nearly a year later...

Nelson_Rebel

aeowulf wrote: »

Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

So you want to Buff other classes at Tanking but leave DK's as the weakest DPS and Healer class in the game at the same time?


Yeah Ok

All classes should be viable in all roles, DK healer is another peeve of mine and a search through my posts will find them mentioned often. I was under the impression DK DPS (as in stamDK) was actually in a fairly good place. Only magDK was hurt recently. If you are not choosing to equip the best skills/gear/stats for your chosen role that is not a class issue, thats a personal preference thing - ESO allows that and seems to try to encourage it, flavour is good.

Vs DK Healer, NB tank, Templar tank - ALL in a 'rarely seen in dungeon finder' place. How often do you see those in finder in a vet dungeon? The only times I see NB or templar these days are as 'fake tanks' (dps with max cp so no tank needed kinda thing) & magDK are represented in finder fairly well. So still viable according to 'players still playing them'. The gap should be as minimal as possible between all classes for each role, whilst still retaining max flavour for the class. It's gotta be a really tough thing to balance. Morrowind hit NB & templar tank sustain really hard, net result is there are still borderline none playing. It's nearly a year later...

Only stam dk's were a viable dps role since Morrowind dropped. Magdk's have been dead in the water for trials for over 5 months now. And the off-balance changes (how both mag dk and stam dk sustain and deal most of their damage) hurt them worse than any other class

I could also get into every nerf specific to DK sustain through both battle roar, massively nerfed, helping hands, again massively nerfed, to not even on par with other classes sustain. In both tanking and dps, dk's are the weakest sustain class of all. Not to mention damage and healing


People only play them because they have been in the game since launch. It's not that easy to
just create a new main after your class was SUPPOSED to be viable but no longer is after a few short updates killed it.

That's called blatant bias


Trust me I'm all for the other classes being good at tanking, BUT not without giving Dk's something in return for being so weak everywhere else. Otherwise there literally is no reason to play one

GimpyPorcupine

A thread I posted on my Mag Sorc tank setup. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384811/my-sorc-tank-battlemage

aeowulf

"Nelson_Rebel wrote: »

Only stam dk's were a viable dps role since Morrowind dropped. Magdk's have been dead in the water for trials for over 5 months now. And the off-balance changes (how both mag dk and stam dk sustain and deal most of their damage) hurt them worse than any other class

I could also get into every nerf specific to DK sustain through both battle roar, massively nerfed, helping hands, again massively nerfed, to not even on par with other classes sustain. In both tanking and dps, dk's are the weakest sustain class of all. Not to mention damage and healing


People only play them because they have been in the game since launch. It's not that easy to
just create a new main after your class was SUPPOSED to be viable but no longer is after a few short updates killed it.

That's called blatant bias


Trust me I'm all for the other classes being good at tanking, BUT not without giving Dk's something in return for being so weak everywhere else. Otherwise there literally is no reason to play one

The dk class can pump out good dps, it's just not done in a way you'd like. you want it to be mag, but they are more efficient doing it via stam. ZoS have three PvE roles, tank, healer and DPS. Not 4

Sustain went UP on my (health stacking) DK tank from morrowind, go figure. DK do not have the worst sustain in the game, that is probably 'stamplar' - repentence is the only thing they get and it needs a dead body, it also needs to be slotted for % resource amps - so it only works on one bar. The only thing that's worse right now, is executioner, mostly because it's broken, but even if it wasn't, it costs more resources than you get back from it, and requires you to damage a mob within 2 secs of death. Siphoning has a cost cast of 900, and even at maximum efficiency, it's at least 9 seconds to break even. Neither are 'on demand' like both of the dk returns - helphing hands is great for stam, and battle roar covers all bases.

DK need a lot of love in the healing tree, not saying it can't be done. The trouble is, if you are good enough to play a DK healer, you have probably switched to a class that is significantly better at healing as it's the perceived requirement. Or it's an alt.

We can completely agree on one thing though, all classes should be viable in all roles. Meta can be reserved for scored content, but I can't see a group doing <some> vet DLC hm with say two stamplars, a dk healer and a nb tank. A group that finder could put together for it, theoretically. The gap is too wide in some roles for some classes. ZoS should look at finder stats and target the least played class/role combinations in say vet dungeons/trials and take a long look at making those classes more appealing by removing some of their limitations.

actosh

Hey guys, thanks for all the additional feedback you provided and it seems like ZOS is doing something really great with update 18 in regards to non dk tanks.

Thanks to ZOS for listening to our feedback and that you considered it.

@ZOS_Wrobel Awesome Work that the Team is doing with U18.
Thanks, and keep it up

aeowulf

I am really looking forward to dusting off my NB and testing these out (well, OK i won't, i'll hit PTS and create a new one, but the principle is the same!)

actosh

I like it, never stopped playing my nb tank, even in vtrials. Working okay for me, even now ^^