Idea - Remove Resource Regen From Heavy Attacks, Instead Tie it to GCD regen ability.

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Separating Resource regen from heavy attacks would allow ZoS to more easily balance resource regen and heavy attack values rather than having to do the constant switching of HA damage and cast times to make resource regen more viable, they can just tweak regen numbers themselves, while at the same time allowing weapon choices to have an even more meaningful impact on how you apply damage.

As for regen, you have not stated why it is needed. You have not explained a determination that there is an issue with the return of resources we currently get. Without that, it is meaning less to say it would help Zos to more easily balance this.

As for weapons, each already offers a meaningful impact. Each staff has different effects, each stamina weapon has different effects. A second or third effect is not needed to make the weapon choice more meaningful. It is just adding on for the sake of adding on and that becomes an exercise in futility quickly which creates more balance issues for Zos.

Further, there is at least one if not two magika builds that still use swords on one bar and I am thinking it will still be the case after the expansion hits. You proposal could easily destroy those builds, at the very least would make them much more challenging, especially for newer and less experience players. Zos is clearly steering in a direction of making game play easier and this idea seems to be going in the opposite direction.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

During the Morrowind beta, there was an outcry at heavy attacks being so boring for the minimal amount of damage that they dealt (cast time) and how little resources they returned. This lead to heavy attacks getting a resource return buff, as well as buffing the cast time while also nerfing the damage by about 15%., and in order to compensate they increased the light attack damage by 15% to make it clear when you wanted to use what ability.

If regen was separated from heavy attacks all they would have had to do is touch on how much regen you'd get per second while "resting" or having "ease of mind" while leaving heavy attacks alone.

Each weapon may offer a meaningful impact, but why are shock and resto the only staves that have different heavy attacks? Why can't I choose for shock or resto to be a charged single burst like Fire or Ice? Why are fire and ice heavy attacks the same? Adding on for the sake of adding on is horizontal growth, allowing a wider pool of options for players to experiment with, try out. If there was a way I'd love to be able to choose between AoE,Channel,Blast heavy attacks for each element depending on the "focus" of a staff. This would allow players more options to choose from, and ultimately more content to experience.

Also, on the point of swords on one bar, That is a point I had not considered. But changing this off of heavy attacks means that regen could be weapon type independent. So even if you have swords on one bar, if you haven't used a magicka ability in a second you'll gain "ease of mind" if you haven't used a stamina ability you gain "resting". meaning hybrid builds might actually become more popular.

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

During the Morrowind beta, there was an outcry at heavy attacks being so boring for the minimal amount of damage that they dealt (cast time) and how little resources they returned. This lead to heavy attacks getting a resource return buff, as well as buffing the cast time while also nerfing the damage by about 15%., and in order to compensate they increased the light attack damage by 15% to make it clear when you wanted to use what ability.

If regen was separated from heavy attacks all they would have had to do is touch on how much regen you'd get per second while "resting" or having "ease of mind" while leaving heavy attacks alone.

Each weapon may offer a meaningful impact, but why are shock and resto the only staves that have different heavy attacks? Why can't I choose for shock or resto to be a charged single burst like Fire or Ice? Why are fire and ice heavy attacks the same? Adding on for the sake of adding on is horizontal growth, allowing a wider pool of options for players to experiment with, try out. If there was a way I'd love to be able to choose between AoE,Channel,Blast heavy attacks for each element depending on the "focus" of a staff. This would allow players more options to choose from, and ultimately more content to experience.

Also, on the point of swords on one bar, That is a point I had not considered. But changing this off of heavy attacks means that regen could be weapon type independent. So even if you have swords on one bar, if you haven't used a magicka ability in a second you'll gain "ease of mind" if you haven't used a stamina ability you gain "resting". meaning hybrid builds might actually become more popular.

1. separating heavy attacks from resource return does not eliminate the need for doing basic attacks over a period of time in your plan. No gain with your idea. You make a huge ASSUMPTION that the regen in your idea would be superior to what we get back from heavy attacks. The TRUTH is, Zos will make it what they want to and this alone tosses out your entire idea.

2. Zos adjusted the resource return and heavy attack time and can do this further if they "think" there is a need to do so. The system does not need to be changed to meet that. Again, no gain with your idea.

3. as for the changes to affects with weapons, First, adding more affects for the same thing adds to server load. Not good for the game. Maybe you do not PvE often or go into vet trials but from over 3 years experience I can soundly say adding to server load is not a good idea. And the ideas presented are not things players are asking for.

4. your idea of regen is weapon dependent. That is the core of your proposal that it is a weapon passive. Further, it cannot be tied to skills spending magika or stamina as that create issues since some builds use a skill from their off resource. A healer may use Power of the Light to increase the groups dps with the debuff it provides. They may end up getting back stamina regen instead of the magika they really need (used by many competitive raiding groups). Further, it would create all sorts of issues for hybrid builds.

5. and most important, your idea takes control away from the player. Currently I can do a heavy attack to get some magicka back when I want to do it, rather than having to wait for the appropriate time to elapse.

Unless you post something worthy of reply such as actually addressing these points, I will not return to this thread.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

1. I would hope that the regen stays about where it currently is, I do not want basic attacks to become irrelevant, which is why light attacks would not cancel the regen passives.
2. They have indeed adjusted resource return, and have changed how heavies restore the resource (increased the %). They've also decreased the cast time of heavy attacks. If they had heavy attacks and resource regen separate they would not have to adjust two things (heavy attack damage and cast time) to fix one thing (resource return).
3. Yeah, that was more of an opinion piece, but I still think heavies should not restore stamina/magicka if the passives are implemented. IF they're implemented.
4. While I never stated weapon passive, I can certainly see how just using "passive" could be seen as such. I want this to be weapon independent, similar to how GCD's on instant cast abilities are independent of the weapon you use. I want this to be active regardless if you have a weapon equipped or not. It would be fully dependent on if you've cast a stamina or magicka ability in the last second. if you've not cast a stamina ability in the last second, you gain "resting" and if you've not cast a magicka ability in the last second, you gain "ease of mind". Entirely possible for both of these to be up at the same time, or for one to be up that isn't your weapon resource type.
5. True, it would take some control from the player, which is why I've suggested that it is one second. Here's what I'm imagining, as soon as that one second mark ticks, you gain Stamina/Magicka and continue to gain per 1 second tick unless you use an ability that drains that resource. Since all heavy attacks are about 1 second or longer in length before they deal damage, this means that the player would be able to choose to use two light attacks and gain stam/mag back, or they can use a heavy attack. The heavy attack would have a cast time that is one second or longer (unless it's a channeled heavy attack) so the player will be able to regain that heavy attack resource (which will be uesd up from the heavy attack) but will also gain the other resource that the heavy attack did not use. My wording on this may be a little wonky. so my idea may not have fully been conveyed.

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

1. I would hope that the regen stays about where it currently is, I do not want basic attacks to become irrelevant, which is why light attacks would not cancel the regen passives.

Your last post did not provide any information to make your idea appealing in any way. If anything it strongly suggested the change your propose here is merely change for the sake of change and as I think I stated before, change for the sake of change should not get any consideration.

The point I quoted from your last post peaks volumes that you did not listen to the negative feedback from players concerning the changes that are on the PTS. They do not want heavy attacks to be such a large part of our DPS and healing guild, yet you merely replace them with multiple light attacks which would probably be worse.

Either that or we can obviously just sit and wait, doing nothing, which is even less pointless.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I believe that my previous post did, in some part.

-Changing them to passives that are based on resource usage allows players to have weapon independent resource regen. and easily accessible hybrid regen.

-Having the passives independent of Heavy attacks means the devs can tweak regen without having to also touch heavy attacks, meaning, they could very well reduce the resource regen tick to be less than one second, or change how much of the resource is restored. This would be a way to allow resources to be regained at a more consistent rate than what current heavy attacks allow. It could even be timed to tick based on the full animation time of a light attack rather than a heavy attack. They could have much more control over resource regen ticks, to which they would curtail based on the community response.

-You would not sit and do nothing if you can also light attack during these ticks without loosing any resources. You could, but you'd gain more damage by using a light attack or two while waiting for that short tick

Izaki

Nah

Considering that heavy attacks are actually a part of the game in Morrowind, I don't see the point of such a change. Its not like you're going to have to heavy attack 24/7. Not even close to that in fact.

Avran_Sylt

@IzakiBrotherSs

However, this way it would allow for more easily accessed hybrid regeneration, as well as allowing the potential for both light and heavy attacks to allow the player to regen resources, and give the devs more control over resource regen.

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I believe that my previous post did, in some part.

If anything your previous post seemed to speak against your proposal. It offered nothing to support it as offering anything to the game and especially to improve anything for combat. As I said before, you do not really respond to what we say other than to repeat yourself.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO -Changing them to passives that are based on resource usage allows players to have weapon independent resource regen. and easily accessible hybrid regen.

So it forced them more into one resource than the other negating much of the reason they play hybrids.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
-Having the passives independent of Heavy attacks means the devs can tweak regen without having to also touch heavy attacks, meaning, they could very well reduce the resource regen tick to be less than one second, or change how much of the resource is restored. This would be a way to allow resources to be regained at a more consistent rate than what current heavy attacks allow. It could even be timed to tick based on the full animation time of a light attack rather than a heavy attack. They could have much more control over resource regen ticks, to which they would curtail based on the community response.

Once again, ASSUMPTION.
You have said nothing as to how this would offer the devs more control and without that it is pointless. One cannot say something will be the case without explaining how and you do not do that. Devs already have control of our resource sustain and you have yet to provide how your idea give them more.

Further, as stated before, you are merely replacing the heavy attacks with either doing light attacks or doing nothing and so it is a major step back. I really question your familiarity of combat in this game if you think this is the answer to players feedback.

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO
-You would not sit and do nothing if you can also light attack during these ticks without loosing any resources. You could, but you'd gain more damage by using a light attack or two while waiting for that short tick

I stated that in the post you were replying to. One can do silly light attacks or stand there and do nothing. You have not even attempted to say how doing a few light attacks is better than one heavy attack.

Answer these questions.

1. How would your idea provide more benefit to the devs with managing our resources?

2. How would that change to the devs managing our resources benefit our resource management?

3. How is a serious of light attacks or just standing doing nothing for a moment be more fun for us?

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

It would not force hybrids into one resource or another, it would actually allow them to slot different resource abilities on the same bar, rather than having to rely on bar swapping to gain the resource, they just have to move over to the pool that currently has more resources and work off of that pool. if the tick was changed to be exactly the same as the GCD of abilities, it could allow the hybrid to use stam, then mag, then stam, then mag and still gain the full benefit of the resource regen. Not only that but it would allow specced players better regen at a resource that they're not using, allowing slight hybrid builds more viability.

It is not assumption, the extra work needed to use this system would be more work initially to create it, that is true, but once it's in place rather than having to tweak light/heavy attack damage any time they make changes to resource regen, they only have to tweak resource regen tick values and tick time. In essence making it easier to tweak, since they don't have to try and re-balance heavy and light attacks to work well with current Heavy attack damage/cast time in addition to how much heavy attacks restore per heavy attack. They would obviously tweak heavy/light attacks based on the fact that heavy attacks are no longer associated with resource regen, but after that they'd be separate issues.

Why are a few light attacks better than a single heavy attack? Because two light attacks are the same or faster than a single heavy attack. And everyone is all about wanting faster gameplay.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Hell, allowing this, stamina users would finally have more access to a purge ability because they don't have to slot a staff in order to gain resources back in a reasonable amount of time to cast the Alliance War Support Skill "Efficient Purge"

Shadow_Viper_vX

Nah

Bad Idea Is Bad

It's Fine As Is

No Change Needed

This Is A Non-Issue

leepalmer95

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Hell, allowing this, stamina users would finally have more access to a purge ability because they don't have to slot a staff in order to gain resources back in a reasonable amount of time to cast the Alliance War Support Skill "Efficient Purge"

No stamina build slots a staff.

idk

Nah

You have not answered a single question I asked. Circular arguments are not answers. X is not better merely because it is X.

Further, your answer attempting to say why light attacks are better than heavy attacks seems to demonstrate your disconnect from the replies players have made about the upcoming changes. It also casts doubt into your experience in PvP and end game PvE Trials if you think your idea is fun.

Also, your purge post is grasping for straws. Any stam player in PvP using a staff because of purge should be named SirDiesAlot.

Once again, you are not answering the questions. I will not be returning. Besides, I do not think we are at any risk of Zos looking into the viability of this idea. Once again the idea lacks even mild support.

Have a good day.

Avran_Sylt

@leepalmer95

Exactly my point. in order to use the only non-class locked purge ability in the game, it requires a staff to be slotted to make up for the resources lost in a reasonable amount of time. If stamina users could use it more often because they have more mag regen because they are not actively using a magicka ability, it'd allow more of a balance. Since mag users have cost reduction as part of their armor kit as well as speccing into magicka regen.

It would also work vice versa, and allow magicka users more reliable access to non-magicka based abilities, however they won't be as strong just as stamina users using magicka abilities wouldn't be as strong.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I didn't answer your questions because I got your post notification prior to you editing them in or my brain for whatever reason glossed over them, my apologies.. So let's go over them:

1. It would benefit the devs because they wouldn't have to continually change heavy attack damage and channel time in order to change any resource regen.
2. Because then the devs can more easily tune resource management based on our feedback, we'll likely get more efficient changes in the future.
3. How is Standing there waiting for your Heavy Attack to charge any fun? The answer is: it isn't. So by removing the regen from heavy attacks it removes the heavy attack cast time constraint on resource regen, allowing the devs to code resource regen in shorter intervals if they so choose, allowing players to replace some heavy attack cast time with ability casts and a light attack thrown in where needed. (They can reduce the time it takes for resource return so it isn't as long as a heavy attack)

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

I didn't answer your questions because I got your post notification prior to you editing them in or my brain for whatever reason glossed over them, my apologies.. So let's go over them:

1. It would benefit the devs because they wouldn't have to continually change heavy attack damage and channel time in order to change any resource regen.
2. Because then the devs can more easily tune resource management based on our feedback, we'll likely get more efficient changes in the future.
3. How is Standing there waiting for your Heavy Attack to charge any fun? The answer is: it isn't. So by removing the regen from heavy attacks it removes the heavy attack cast time constraint on resource regen, allowing the devs to code resource regen in shorter intervals if they so choose, allowing players to replace some heavy attack cast time with ability casts and a light attack thrown in where needed. (They can reduce the time it takes for resource return so it isn't as long as a heavy attack"

1. in the 3+ years of ESO devs have made two adjustments to heavy attacks (not including when they made ice staff into tanking weapon). over 30 months ago they made it so a heavy attack returned the native resource to all weapons and the one recently.

It does not appear to be something they do continually. Further, it is likely merely changing a number in the database if they choose to tweak it further, which is far less work than redesigning it to end up having to still change a number in the database to tweak it further.

End result, more work for the devs to make the propose change.

2. An assumption that it is both easier which I just explained how it would not be easier for the devs than it is now. Building a new system to be able to change this aspect in the same manner is not easier.

3. Trying to twist the situation does not answer the question. Even you have stated that players are not in favor of the heavy attack buids that are coming out. But that does not mean you have answered my question.

It is a requirement of you to answer how a series of light attacks would be more fun than one heavy attack since part of your premise is that do not want heavy attack builds.

I have already blows the rest of your argument out of the water using actual facts rather than oppinon so I would think carefully about your next answer.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

1 & 2: It's much easier to implement this than you think. a quick test could be done by doing the following:
Grab a HA resource return value from say, a Reddit thread. Seems like the highest Resource return is from a desto/resto heavy at 2476 resources returned, now, this is old data for sure (9 months). Take the time it takes for this heavy attack to cast, and divide it by 0.6. Then take that number and divide 2476 by that number. You now have a rough number for resource regen per 0.6 seconds.

Then, create two constant effects on the player. One of which restores the above mentioned resource number (AMRN) worth of stamina to the player every 0.6 seconds. The other restores (AMRN) magicka to the player every 0.6 seconds.

Then, have these act in line with the GCD based on what type of ability set off the GCD. If a stamina ability causes the GCD then have the stamina effect stop and restart after 0.6 seconds. If a magicka ability causes the GCD then have the magicka effect stop and restart after 0.6 seconds.

Edit: These would be suppressed by blocking (shield/frost) or sprinting.
Edit: Passive regens would still be beneficial because it allows the player to continue gaining resources regardless if they've activated a GCD.

It might be more work but it would be very easy to do seeing as they can already tell what resource an ability uses when cast as evident by the Undaunted Unweaver Set

3: Performing one light attack and gaining resources is more entertaining than having to wait longer for a heavy attack to charge and swing because it's faster combat. It's simply a side effect that you can also choose to not do anything and still gain resources. This however, means you're dealing less damage.

idk

Nah

I have not said it is difficult. It is certainly not more difficult to change that how it is designed on both live and PTS. It is clearly not challenging with the current system since they just adjusted it without issue.

Although it does take more work since the system has to be redesigned. In the end there is no benefit, and you have not nor are you capable of providing any information to support it is more beneficial.

The same people that are not thrilled with the HA builds will not find the multiple LA any more entertaining, probably less if anything since it requires more button pressing. That is where you fail to understand the response players have provided Zos and to your multiple threads on the multiple subjects. If it is faster, questionable, it is not noticeable.

Even if there was the slightest benefit, it would not be worth the effort to change the system from one that has been proven to work for over 30 months now.

We will agree to disagree and well, it seems almost everyone who has replied has chosen this same path.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Right, I don't think we'll be able to agree on this. Ultimately what I was hoping to accomplish was to allow players a way to get quicker resource ticks so everything isn't as loaded into heavy attacks just to restore stamina resources. Then to spread it out to both resource pools simultaneously such that it becomes a greater incentive to branch out and use utility skills that are not part of your main resource focus to add that utility as well as act as a pseudo "heavy attack", since using a skill not of your main resource pool would allow you to get a tick or two of resource regen for your main pool. Edging the player away from needing to light attack/wait (or current heavy attack) if they add in a slight amount of a hybrid build, while still allowing them to slot any weapon that they choose. Well, thanks for entertaining me as long as you have though!

Have a good one

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Right, I don't think we'll be able to agree on this. Ultimately what I was hoping to accomplish was to allow players a way to get quicker resource ticks so everything isn't as loaded into heavy attacks just to restore stamina. Then to spread it out to both resource pools simultaneously such that it becomes a greater incentive to branch out and use utility skills that are not part of your main resource focus to add that utility as well as act as a pseudo"heavy attack", since using a skill not of your main resource pool would allow you to get a tick or two of resource regen for your main pool. Edging the player away from needing to light attack/wait (or current heavy attack) if they add in a slight amount of a hybrid build, while still allowing them to slot any weapon that they choose.

That was not your stated objective.

More importantly, if you mean player getting more resources it fails in five area.
1. Devs are working to reduce our resources.
2. a player will get more resource return when they do a HA then immediately perform a second HA vs your idea since your idea is based on increasing regen for a short period.
3. Devs can already control our resource return from HA easily, and from any source. A new system does not need to be designed and build to essentially provide them with the same ease of making changes.
4. Makes it more challenging for devs to design a system like this that does not push hybrid players further out of the picture and your suggesting on this matter do not solve it.
5. Thinking players would enjoy being forced to do multiple LAs or just stand there to get resource return vs the HA. It just seems odd that one would think 2 LAs would be more acceptable to players than a HA.

You keep trying to fix things that are not broken and fixing them in a manner that is clearing not wanted by a large portion of those that will even look at these threads for more than 2 seconds.

Look at your poll. I cannot recall a poll rejecting an idea as soundly as this idea.

In other words, Zos will not be considering this idea for more than 2 seconds because they will see the same issues, especially that the idea lacks logic and has no defense to support it.

Kikke

Nah

Why? no? go back to your cave and dont come back...

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

True, it wasn't my stated objective. Originally it was indeed not what was just described. And rather than make a complete turnaround on some things I wanted to try and prod the conversation along the way that I wanted. which totally failed.

1. Devs are indeed trying to reduce our resources, but I wish that heavy attacks were not the only way to regain stamina. I was kind of hoping that they would consider the option that if the player stops using a particular resource pool for a short duration, their resource pool would gain a substantial regen bonus. Allowing players to mix and match abilities of different resource type such that they wouldn'tt have to be shoehorned into relying solely on heavy attacking to regain resources, giving players incentive to diversify what abilities they use (maybe you want to add in twisting path to your stamnb, or perhaps mix in dizzying swing with your jabs.
2. It should still restore about the same amount, long as it's based on the generic value that they give heavy attacks. Say a heavy attack takes 1.2 seconds to deal damage (restore a resource amount). have it just restore once every 0.6 seconds and make it restore the same amount as that heavy attack would have.
3. yeah they can, Players already were complaining that heavy attack times were too long, even though heavy attacks restored the same amount of resources regardless of what weapon you used (apart from Resto with passive). Since the amount restored per heavy attack is based on the cast time of the heavy attack. Shorter Heavy attacks restored less, and longer ones more. but players didn't like that, especially with the fire and frost staves, since it messed with rotations and probably caused them to deal less damage. so they reduced heavy attack times for a majority of weapons in order to homogenize their heavy attacks.
4. Wouldn't allowing abilities to act as "pseduo" heavy attacks for their opposite resource actually make it easier for hybrid players? It'd certainly make a set like Pelinal's Aptitude a potentially interesting armor choice.
5. Yeah, perhaps just having the option of regaining resources from either light attacks or heavy attacks would be a better idea. Have heavy attacks still restore some resources, but also allow light attacks to not interrupt the bonus resource regen.

I wouldn't say that it isn't broken. A lot of players are complaining about having to use Heavy Attacks to regain resources, so perhaps if they had the choice to heavy attack, light attack, or use another resource pool to allow your main resource pool to regenerate, that might make it more interesting to players since it isn't just heavy attacking.

All in all, thanks for your time.

idk

Nah

And that is where you issue is.

No, you did not try to prod a conversation. You were merely replying that your idea was the justification of the idea and that is empty. I forced you to answer questions which brought us to the point that you wanted this change to have Zos change an entire setup to make a modest change that really did not change anything.

In the end all you provided was smoke and mirrors is all you provided here.

I did not get into any of your points because, well pseudo heavy attacks speaks volumes about the smoke and mirrors. Just leave this be. It is a bad idea.

Duiwel

Pretty sure there was dynamic resource regen at one point, can't remember anymore as there have been so many changes over the years.

People are use to the current system, with all the bugs or with so many NEW suggestions that are not in the game, is this necessary?

No

Saturn

Nah

To be honest this sounds like it would be a lot worse than it already will be. It encourages a gameplay type that the developers promises is actually part of the game (spoiler: it is not), wherein players have "resting phases" during fights, but there are no fights in ESO that actually let you rest and regen, in fact most fights discourage this by overwhelming you with add spawns. This would also not be applicable to most PvP scenarios I can think of.

Conclusion: It simply wouldn't work with how the game is designed.

Coilbox

Nah

On a positive note... you managed to bring up a poll on which almost the whole forum agrees!

Sikthlight08xz

Nah

Why do people want to implement things that would only make combat slower.. Please just go play some other mmo.