Idea - Remove Resource Regen From Heavy Attacks, Instead Tie it to GCD regen ability.

Avran_Sylt

This is the idea:
Rather than having heavy attacks restore resources, why not have a passive ability that restores a particular resource if it hasn't been used in a while. These would be additive to the base in combat resource bonuses. For example:

Resting: After not using an ability that costs stamina for one second, your character gains [x] stamina per second. (Suppressed while blocking)
Ease of Mind: After not using an ability that costs magicka for one second, your character gains [x] magicka per second (Suppressed while blocking with an Ice Staff with Tri Focus)


This would allow the developers to make heavy attacks more interesting, adding more flair and variety to weapons. Perhaps fire heavy attacks could be continuous short range conal AoE attacks. Ice Heavies could be Ice shards that deal additional CC effects, lightning could chain lightning over a duration (as it already does).

---

Edit: for those bringing up the concern that Heavy attacks would become the meta again (since you'll be able to heavy attack and keep getting resources, but this time at a slightly faster rate), how about this:

Light attacks cost no resources, so rather than having to use a heavy attack for resource regen, you'll use consecutive light attacks when you want to regain resources. This will make combat seem faster as you'll no longer have to channel heavy attacks if you want to regen resources. Or you have the option to wait, and not use light attacks.

Heavy attacks now cost resources, so they cancel resting or ease of mind. in order to compensate for this, add additional effects, such as:

ALL Heavy attacks (consume stamina/magicka)
Lightning: is a single target long range channel that consumes magicka with each tick.
Fire: Short range conal AoE Channel that consumes magicka with each tick.
Frost: a mild cast time ice shard that snares enemies (think Winterborn)
Greatsword: a Large Radial AoE attack (rework the cleave ability)
Greataxe: a smaller Radial AoE that applies a bleed (rework the cleave ability)
Warhammer : a conal AoE that has a high chance at setting enemies off balance (rework cleave ability) and knocks off-balance enemies down.
Bow: Simply a high damage attack
Two Swords: higher damage attack that deals damage in a short/small conal area
Two Axes: applies a bleed (stacks with twin slashes)
Two Maces: knocks down off-balance targets (with a chance to set targets off balance)
Two Daggers: channeled ability that consumes stamina every second tick. (think a slower flurry)
Mix-Match: Regular old Heavy attack.

GuyNamedSean

Nah

You do realize that your suggestions for passives work pretty much the same way as stat regen does? What your suggestion would do in function is remove the regen on heavy attacks and just make regular stat regen faster when you wait a moment. There are already players that make regen based builds, so they play style you would seemingly create with this change is already present in the game. I fail to see how this would actually be useful in game.

F7sus4

Nah

Science-fiction brain fart.

danno8

Nah

So instead of Heavy Attacking to get back a resource we would have the much more interesting option of...doing nothing?

The more varied Heavy Attacks you suggest could be done regardless of the resource return so I have no idea what the point of your suggestions are.

Avran_Sylt

@GuyNamedSean

Yes, actually that's the entire idea. Make regen deal entirely with how you regain resources apart from specific abilities. (I.E. Enchantments, Dark Exchange).
It would allow heavy attacks to actually be heavy attacks that deal quite a bit of damage, rather than attacks that are continually nerfed (the 15% heavy attack reduction coming in morrowind for example). and allow heavy attacks to be tweaked/prodded to be more interesting than they are currently.

@danno8

No, Heavy attacks and Light attacks don't cost stamina/magicka at the moment, so you could perform these while resting/ease of mind.

Silver_Strider

So what you're saying is delete Tanks, right?

Kiralyn2000

Silver_Strider wrote: »

So what you're saying is delete Tanks, right?

No, it's just the author's next attempt at re-phrasing "get rid of animation canceling".... because, if you have to not use resource-costing abilities in order to have the passive regen kick in, clearly you can't be doing any sort of weaving/etc.

danno8

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@GuyNamedSean

Yes, actually that's the entire idea. Make regen deal entirely with how you regain resources apart from specific abilities. (I.E. Enchantments, Dark Exchange).
It would allow heavy attacks to actually be heavy attacks that deal quite a bit of damage, rather than attacks that are continually nerfed (the 15% heavy attack reduction coming in morrowind for example). and allow heavy attacks to be tweaked/prodded to be more interesting than they are currently.

@danno8

No, Heavy attacks and Light attacks don't cost stamina/magicka at the moment, so you could perform these while resting/ease of mind.

I still don't get it. Right now if you are running low on resources you use a HA to get some resource back. With your suggestion it would be the exact same scenario with the exact same results but HA would be stronger?

You can't make HA/LA very strong to the point that they compete with skills, otherwise why use skills at all? In fact, on the PTS HA builds are pressing normal builds for top DPS spot already and people hate it since holding down a single button for 4-6 seconds per rotation is extremely boring.

Maybe what you are suggesting is more like in other mmo's where you regenerate faster the more resource you have left in your pool? There is incentive to keep your pool from being drained too low and pace yourself otherwise your resource regeneration is lowered?

idk

Nah

This is probably your worst idea yet. Take all control out of the players hands and require them to stand around and do nothing to get the regen.

In other words, it is a passive on a weapon that requires one to not use the weapon, or pretty much anything else, to get use out of it.

It does not even make sense. A combat passives that requires one to not do combat. If your suggestions is they can do heavy attacks during the time needed to trigger the passive then maybe you will not see the flaw in your proposal.

OH, wait, after reading your post after this one, the player would not even be able to do heavy attacks to trigger this passive since you are thinking heavy attacks would consume stam/magika depending on the weapon.

Edit: Very much the most ill-thought idea I think I have ever seen posted in a game forum. You actually want a player to just stand around and do nothing while the boss is attacking them. Tanks would be in the worst situation and healers, ugh. Just horrid. Think it through and you, maybe, will see the same, obvious, conclusion.

Avran_Sylt

@Kiralyn2000

This is a separate topic, focused on how heavy attacks restore resources. If implemented you'd still be able to animation cancel. Not everything I do is about animation cancelling.

@danno8

Pretty much, but it'd also allow heavy attacks to have different cast/channel times that other weapon heavy attacks. HA for Ice/Frost/Bow/and 2H all got reduced cast times in order to make them more viable. If resource regen was independent of the Heavy attack, it means you could do something like this:

Heavy attacks (consume stamina/magicka)
Lightning: is a single target long range channel that consumes magicka with each tick.
Fire: Short range conal AoE Channel that consumes magicka with each tick.
Frost: a mild cast time ice shard that snares enemies (think Winterborn)
Greatsword: a Large Radial AoE attack (rework the cleave ability)
Greataxe: a smaller Radial AoE that applies a bleed (rework the cleave ability)
Warhammer : a conal AoE that has a high chance at setting enemies off balance (rework cleave ability) and knocks off-balance enemies down.
Bow: Simply a high damage attack
Two Swords: higher damage attack that deals damage in a short/small conal area
Two Axes: applies a bleed (stacks with twin slashes)
Two Maces: knocks down off-balance targets (with a chance to set targets off balance)
Two Daggers: channeled ability that consumes stamina every second tick. (think a slower flurry)
Mix-Match: Regular old Heavy attack.

leaving light attacks as they are (so you regain more stamina while performing consecutive light attacks rather than having to hold on to a heavy attack for 2 seconds). This would essentially shift resource regen to performing consecutive light attacks. (Note: you can still animation cancel for increased DPS).

idk

Nah

FYI, performing consecutive light attacks is a horrible combat requirement (last sentence in the previous post).

Also, having some weapons consume magika or stam, hence delaying the passive you envision, while other weapons do other things demonstrate OP has not even attempted to put together a coherent thought before posting this.

ROTHLOL is about all I can say.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

The regen will only dissapear if you use an ability that costs stamina.. so you can still light attack/heavy attack while regaining increased resources (check main post, it was updated prior to your response). I'd personally have heavy attacks cost resources (but have additional effects as mentioned above ^) while leaving increased resource regen while the player performs consecutive light attacks. This way combat will feel even faster (since you're no longer required to wait 2 seconds for resources to start returning via that heavy attack but can keep slinging light attacks).

leepalmer95

Nah

Can you stop suggesting GCD's for changes?

This game isn't based around serious gcd's.

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

The regen will only dissapear if you use an ability that costs stamina.. so you can still light attack/heavy attack while regaining increased resources (check main post, it was updated prior to your response). I'd personally have heavy attacks cost resources (but have additional effects as mentioned above ^) while leaving increased resource regen while the player performs consecutive light attacks. This way combat will feel even faster (since you're no longer required to wait 2 seconds for resources to start returning via that heavy attack but can keep slinging light attacks).

According to your post, some weapons heavy attacks cost stam/magika so heavy attacks, well, it should be obvious.

Second, it is so lame, so absurd and sad that you are REQUIRING basic attacks to be done in order to REGEN magicka/stamina by this ridiculous passive of yours when we already gain magicka/stamina back with heavy attacks.

Your idea also FORCES players to use certain weapons so the heavy attack does not cost magika;/stamina and actually does something useful.

The idea is so evidently bad that I question the sincerity of your posts. This seems more along the lines of a troll post and with that I am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

stevepdodson_ESO888

danno8 wrote: »

So instead of Heavy Attacking to get back a resource we would have the much more interesting option of...doing nothing?

The more varied Heavy Attacks you suggest could be done regardless of the resource return so I have no idea what the point of your suggestions are.

"Do Nothing" it's the new meta

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

It states that all heavy attacks should cost stamina/magicka, it's just that some channeled abilities would have the cost per tick rather than per heavy attack.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Second, it is so lame, so absurd and sad that you are REQUIRING [heavy/light] attacks to be done in order to REGEN magicka/stamina by this ridiculous passive of yours when we already gain magicka/stamina back with [heavy/light] attacks.

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

It states that all heavy attacks should cost stamina, it's just that some channeled abilities would have the cost per tick rather than per heavy attack.

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Second, it is so lame, so absurd and sad that you are REQUIRING [heavy/light] attacks to be done in order to REGEN magicka/stamina by this ridiculous passive of yours when we already gain magicka/stamina back with [heavy/light] attacks.

So, not only is your thoughts presented not complete since your own posts say otherwise, you again fail to address the biggest issues.

I do have to thank you for my daily dose of humor because that is all the value this idea has and your reply I have quoted, compared to your previous comments in this thread can only be taken as intended as humor.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

The idea was complete in my mind, rather it was incomplete on paper. Not to mention the idea changed once people brought up concerns with heavy attacks being a bit too overpowered.

While I'm grateful that you consistently provide feedback, I'll say while portions of your feedback is indeed constructive criticism, a majority of it is slathered with just an overall negative sentiment.

Either way, thanks for your time.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Also, can you please reiterate the biggest issues? The idea has changed from when we first discussed this. I want to make sure the main post covers most of it.

Drummerx04

Nah

While I applaud thinking out of the box, this would not be very fun at all even just from a dps perspective.

The regen passive would need to be MASSIVE to even be beneficial over heavy attacks now, i.e thousands of extra regen. While heavy attacking for resources is pretty dull, NOT attacking for resources is even more dull.

For your edit suggesting consecutive light attacks to regen resources and speed up combat... I can't even. Light attacks do not feel like fast combat to someone who has been weaving for 99% of combat gameplay. Light attacks are really slow and REALLY low damage as a sole damage source for any amount of time, and boosting their strength to be good dps would be absolutely terrifying for pvp, and horrendously boring for pve.


/tangent
Really for pve dps, the main reason I would argue people are upset with the resource changes is due to the reduction in group value.

You know the saying that the "whole is greater than the sum of its parts?" Currently in pve, a trials group is much greater than the sum of its individual players. DPS build for maximum damage and almost no regen, tanks hold aggro and boost group damage with warhorns and mob positioning, and healers restore health, boost damage with combat prayer/warhorn, apply ele drain and POTL to as many mobs as possible, apply off-balance with lightning wall, restore stam with shards and repentence, restore magicka with orbs, and possibly a few other things as well.

Healers have an incredible and vitally important role to play in group situations. And good healers are the life blood of a raid. After morrowind, they can't really restore resources, so healing turns into spam springs and combat prayer and make sure ele drain is up. In other words, healing with be both much easier, and much more boring next patch.

This contributes to dps builds leaning towards a heavy attack meta which is much more self sustaining and overall, the group CAN'T synergize as well with each other. We can have decent positioning or mechanical handling, but it's still every man for himself which is lame.

idk

Nah

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

The idea was complete in my mind, rather it was incomplete on paper. Not to mention the idea changed once people brought up concerns with heavy attacks being a bit too overpowered.

While I'm grateful that you consistently provide feedback, I'll say while portions of your feedback is indeed constructive criticism, a majority of it is slathered with just an overall negative sentiment.

Either way, thanks for your time.

Considering you regularly reply to peoples posts without actually addressing what they said, merely restating your idea or using distraction as a reply, I do not know how to take this comment I just quoted.

You do not create these posts with proposals for change, but to attempt to convince others to accept your ill thought ideas even though they get extremely little support.

Thing is, it's clear you do not care what others say.

STEVIL

Nah

@Avran_Sylt

Voted no because did not see solid reason for the change based on your description.

there is no linkage at all between "can hvy attacks have cool effects like these?" and "do heavy attacks provide sustain too?" The devs could do both, all, some none and make it play out. heck, heavy attacks could be changed to do no damage, just sustain and proc a special effect.

So no need to divorce sustain from heavies in order to generate other fx from hvy attacks.

Also, it seems while you use the other effects as your reason for the change, its almost as an after thought not as the main core thrust of your post. They are not even mentioned in the title. The title isn't "lets make heavy attacks more fun" after all... is it?

So it seems like this is a change for change's sake.

For the negative side, removing an active player choice and action to sustain by executing a heavy and shifting it to a passive... not directions i prefer going.

idk

Nah

Drummerx04 wrote: »

While I applaud thinking out of the box, this would not be very fun at all even just from a dps perspective.

The regen passive would need to be MASSIVE to even be beneficial over heavy attacks now, i.e thousands of extra regen. While heavy attacking for resources is pretty dull, NOT attacking for resources is even more dull.

For your edit suggesting consecutive light attacks to regen resources and speed up combat... I can't even. Light attacks do not feel like fast combat to someone who has been weaving for 99% of combat gameplay. Light attacks are really slow and REALLY low damage as a sole damage source for any amount of time, and boosting their strength to be good dps would be absolutely terrifying for pvp, and horrendously boring for pve.


/tangent
Really for pve dps, the main reason I would argue people are upset with the resource changes is due to the reduction in group value.

You know the saying that the "whole is greater than the sum of its parts?" Currently in pve, a trials group is much greater than the sum of its individual players. DPS build for maximum damage and almost no regen, tanks hold aggro and boost group damage with warhorns and mob positioning, and healers restore health, boost damage with combat prayer/warhorn, apply ele drain and POTL to as many mobs as possible, apply off-balance with lightning wall, restore stam with shards and repentence, restore magicka with orbs, and possibly a few other things as well.

Healers have an incredible and vitally important role to play in group situations. And good healers are the life blood of a raid. After morrowind, they can't really restore resources, so healing turns into spam springs and combat prayer and make sure ele drain is up. In other words, healing with be both much easier, and much more boring next patch.

This contributes to dps builds leaning towards a heavy attack meta which is much more self sustaining and overall, the group CAN'T synergize as well with each other. We can have decent positioning or mechanical handling, but it's still every man for himself which is lame.

This ^^^

The same applies to your idea about putting a CD at the end of basic attacks where a player cannot do anything for a 1/3 of a second. It is what we were explaining in that thread 2 days ago, but you did you refused to take our replies into consideration.

andreasranasen

So sick and tired of people asking for changes and changes in this game when there is no need for any, other than small adjustments or balance changes to BRING UP other classes to be on par with each other. Zenimax clearly don't know what they're doing, since they have changed their game-model 836383 times since launch. Stop with the *** already.

Absolut_Turkey

Nah

Terrible idea is terrible.

idk

Nah

andreasranasen wrote: »

So sick and tired of people asking for changes and changes in this game when there is no need for any other than small adjustments or balance changes to BRING UP other classes to be on par with each other. Zenimax clearly don't know what they're doing since they have changed their game model 836383 times since launch. Stop with the *** already.

Agree. There is certainly no need for this change and it does not enhance the game in any manner.

leepalmer95

Nah

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

andreasranasen wrote: »

So sick and tired of people asking for changes and changes in this game when there is no need for any other than small adjustments or balance changes to BRING UP other classes to be on par with each other. Zenimax clearly don't know what they're doing since they have changed their game model 836383 times since launch. Stop with the *** already.

Agree. There is certainly no need for this change and it does not enhance the game in any manner.

OP just really wants GCD's for some reason, there was another thread a few days ago.

dday3six

You're drifting further and further from the base line functions of ESO. Creativity is one thing, but you need to tailor your ideas to the subject and situation. You treat these suggestions like the 'what can you do with a paperclip' question. You started moving toward the reality bending concepts of; "Is it giant or made of foam?", and while wrapped up in that you miss the importance of practicality.

Avran_Sylt

@Drummerx04

The regen would have to be massive, yes. But the idea isn't to have the players stop doing anything while these resources regen. That's why it specifically states that the regen would only be cancelled if you use a resource draining attack (which may have been edited in prior to your response). Though if the resource regen is massive, it'd likely have to be separate from stamina regen % bonuses.

And in the idea of speed, if you have to charge a heavy attack, or use two light attacks, which one seems faster? The one with a delay in damage or the one that hits twice? In my opinion the two light attacks seem faster than a charged heavy.

@STEVIL

Yes, I've been replying and updating the main post based on peoples responses. it's made it rather annoying to manage and also brings in a lot of confusion depending on when you actually enter the post/ if you've read the majority of the other comments.

The choice is still the players, but rather than choosing a heavy attack/ability, they would choose two light attacks (during which the passive would set off and regen player resources). To me it'd feel like it makes these regen periods faster, since you're no longer using a long cast time ability (heavy attack), but using multiple light attacks.

The reason for the linkage for heavy attacks and additional effects was something that popped up due to a player voicing concern that allowing heavy attacks to gain resources early (once the 1 sec passes) it'd make heavy attacks much more dominant in builds. That lead to heavy attacks costing resources, which lead to them having additional effects to bring them up to par with abilities, make them more interesting.

idk

Nah

You have yet to try to explain how this would improve the game. It just looks like it will make the game play clunky.

If it is just a change for the sake of change it is not even worth the effort of consideration. It certainly would not be worth the expense for Zos to implement it.

This is what you do not address in any of you threads where you propose a change. You fail to explain why it is needed and how game play would benefit.

Avran_Sylt

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Separating Resource regen from heavy attacks would allow ZoS to more easily balance resource regen and heavy attack values rather than having to do the constant switching of HA damage and cast times to make resource regen more viable, they can just tweak regen numbers themselves, while at the same time allowing weapon choices to have an even more meaningful impact on how you apply damage.