Health Tank or Stam Tank for Trials?

Galenus_of_Pergamon

I have a tank with 64 attributes into stamina and get my 29k health (probably low for a tank) and resistance from glyphs, sets, and a monster helm.

My tank has pretty high dps and can do any vet dungeon. However, I am getting one-shotted by trial bosses. Should I sacrifice DPS and become a brick wall (with 64 attribute points into health) or remain a stamina tank (with 64 attribute points into health) and switch my gear?

Nestor

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

Is that 29K including Food Buffs?

Trials Bosses can hit for 25K to 30K from what I have seen. The general rule of thumb with Tanks is, have 32K of Health, and 32K of Resistance and put the rest into regen of the attribute you have the most issues managing. So, this can be Magic or Stamina as you use both types of skills in your rotation. But, individual play style can change these numbers somewhat.

I personally find that Stamina is not all that hard to manage because I only block when I need to (usually) but I run out of Magic firing off support skills.

If you do not have a Buff Tracker, get one, or play on console, come Morrowind your job to manage resources will become much easier. You only need to fire off your support skills when they are about to stop, not every 3 seconds in a rotation.

And, if you want to be a Trials Tank, then book mark this site

https://woeler.eu/

And watch this video first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsESFKOuZb8

kylewwefan

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

29k health is fine even for a vet Trials tank in my experiences anyways. I'd try to maintain around 20k Stam and rest into magic.

paulsimonps

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

Please oh please make new glyphs, resistance glyphs? Come on man. Block cost, cost reduction or magicka recovery, no other options there.

Also your attributes and Max stats all depends on race. But I would never go 64 HP, too much HP isnt really worth it. But then again, with the changes coming I will be using more HP than before. But not that much more. I will probably use more magicka than before, as long as my stamina is higher than my magicka I am gonna ok.

Galenus_of_Pergamon

@Nestor I believe it's 29k with food. I wear five Pariah and two Mighty Chudan with Agility jewelry if I recall correctly. My weapons are random I think. Definitely could have better gear. Any set recommendations for me since I'm 64 points into stam? Also, I am an Imperial Dragonknight.

Ideally, I'd like to have a trials tank that can effectively mitigate damage while also outputting decent DPS in vet dungeons. Am I asking for too much? Can I have my cake and eat it too?

Asardes

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

~30K health is enough for any current trial bosses. However for vHoF 45K+ (all health) is probably better. The bosses do hit hard. I tried it on the PTS with 30-35K an I got killed quite often. It may still be possible to do it with less if you know mechanics perfectly though. In any case having a big stamina pool as tank does not translate to high DPS since your gear will not give you high weapon critical and damage, but primarily resource recovery and protection as well as buffs for the group. Pulling DPS for a trials tank is inconsequential in any case as group DPS should be in the 300K ballpark and you would be pulling much less than 10K. The buffs that you give the group amount to much more than that. What matters for a tank is the health pool, the stamina pool and the magicka and ultimate recovery. 20-25K stamina is probably ideal to have but 15K can work if you know how to manage it.

supaskrub

Nestor wrote: »

Is that 29K including Food Buffs?

Trials Bosses can hit for 25K to 30K from what I have seen. The general rule of thumb with Tanks is, have 32K of Health, and 32K of Resistance and put the rest into regen of the attribute you have the most issues managing. So, this can be Magic or Stamina as you use both types of skills in your rotation. But, individual play style can change these numbers somewhat.

I personally find that Stamina is not all that hard to manage because I only block when I need to (usually) but I run out of Magic firing off support skills.

If you do not have a Buff Tracker, get one, or play on console, come Morrowind your job to manage resources will become much easier. You only need to fire off your support skills when they are about to stop, not every 3 seconds in a rotation.

And, if you want to be a Trials Tank, then book mark this site

https://woeler.eu/

And watch this video first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsESFKOuZb8

That build is dead as of Morrowind, Woeler has a new updated build for Dragonknights (Argonian) with a heavy focus on high health (ie: as high as 50k health).. get out there and farm plague doctor https://woeler.eu/index.php?p=article&id=30

idk

If your doing high dps as a tank then your not really setup as a tank. It's much more than how much health you have.

KochDerDamonen

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

You want to be a wall, not a potato. Walls aren't only made of bricks.

Rinmaethodain

supaskrub wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Is that 29K including Food Buffs?

Trials Bosses can hit for 25K to 30K from what I have seen. The general rule of thumb with Tanks is, have 32K of Health, and 32K of Resistance and put the rest into regen of the attribute you have the most issues managing. So, this can be Magic or Stamina as you use both types of skills in your rotation. But, individual play style can change these numbers somewhat.

I personally find that Stamina is not all that hard to manage because I only block when I need to (usually) but I run out of Magic firing off support skills.

If you do not have a Buff Tracker, get one, or play on console, come Morrowind your job to manage resources will become much easier. You only need to fire off your support skills when they are about to stop, not every 3 seconds in a rotation.

And, if you want to be a Trials Tank, then book mark this site

https://woeler.eu/

And watch this video first:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JsESFKOuZb8

That build is dead as of Morrowind, Woeler has a new updated build for Dragonknights (Argonian) with a heavy focus on high health (ie: as high as 50k health).. get out there and farm plague doctor https://woeler.eu/index.php?p=article&id=30

Just because one particular tank is shifting away from stam tanking it doesent mean all stam tank builds are dead. Not to mention Morrowind didnt touch live server yet and some people already claim X bis Y dead....

Nestor

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

supaskrub wrote: »

That build is dead as of Morrowind, Woeler has a new updated build for Dragonknights (Argonian) with a heavy focus on high health (ie: as high as 50k health).. get out there and farm plague doctor https://woeler.eu/index.php?p=article&id=30

Probably, but things he talks about in that video are good for Trials Tanking in general, no matter what gear is determined to be BiS

Royaji

Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »

@Nestor I believe it's 29k with food. I wear five Pariah and two Mighty Chudan with Agility jewelry if I recall correctly. My weapons are random I think. Definitely could have better gear. Any set recommendations for me since I'm 64 points into stam? Also, I am an Imperial Dragonknight.

Ideally, I'd like to have a trials tank that can effectively mitigate damage while also outputting decent DPS in vet dungeons. Am I asking for too much? Can I have my cake and eat it too?

Nope. DPS-tanks don't work in trials. You will have to make two separate builds.

Nestor

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »

also outputting decent DPS in vet dungeons.

DPS and Tanking are Oxymorons. My DPS on my tank is between 2K and 4K per fight. If a tank is doing their job, and the DPS is doing their jobs, then you don't need to do much damage.

Naerri

I assume health tanks will be pretty much history with the sustain nerfs.

Asardes

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

Actually no, since with higher health you can afford to block less. It's counterintuitive but probably true in some situation. IMO 15K mag/stam is enough if you know what you are doing and your 50K+ health allows you to only block the hard stuff and just absorb the rest.

Galenus_of_Pergamon

Great input everyone!

Given your advice, I am going to build a new Imperial or Argonian tank that will focus much more on damage mitigation for trials. I don't want to give my healers panic attacks.

However, I am still keeping my current DPS-leaning Imperial, Dragonknight Tank for vet dungeons (I've beat Cradle of Shadows Hard Mode with him) and other overworld content.

paulsimonps

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »

Great input everyone!

Given your advice, I am going to build a new Imperial or Argonian tank that will focus much more on damage mitigation for trials. I don't want to give my healers panic attacks.

However, I am still keeping my current DPS-leaning Imperial, Dragonknight Tank for vet dungeons (I've beat Cradle of Shadows Hard Mode with him) and other overworld content.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

All you will need for damage mitigation. Its not hardy to get up really really high fast. Most things a average tank does will get you to at least 83% total mitigation.

Liofa

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

Ok , first of all . You don't have to do DPS . You have to do some support . Support you give to your group will increase group DPS more than your own DPS easily .

Second of all , no one gives a crap about sustain . Don't worry about things like ''will I run out of Stamina if my Stam pool is low?'' . As a DK , you can tank with 15k . I tried a build both in PTS and live . 10k Stamina/Magicka pools with 3.5-4k Magicka Recovery . It worked like a charm in both servers . So , no , your Max Stamina is not relevant to your sustain . You can always find a way around it .

Third , you need to know what you want to do . There is only 1 difference between Stamina tanks and Health tanks in terms of group support . Stamina tank does healing with Vigor . Health tank gives shields . That's it . I think you are not very experienced in trials so I need to explain something . In trials , most deaths are caused by one-shots . What I mean by one-shot is , not exactly one attack dealing enough damage to kill . It is combination of difference attacks hitting the same person at the same time . Healing will not save anyone in this kind of situation . Shields do . That is why , I prefer Health tanking . Igneous Shield scales with YOUR Max Health . More Health you have , more shield you will give to your allies .

You need to know what you want to do . Heal or shield . Make your call and go with it . They are both viable . Just don't be a selfish tank . Stamina tanks who don't heal or Health tanks who don't shield are selfish tanks . Make use of your resources for your group . As you learn fights , rest will be cake .

Galenus_of_Pergamon

Liofa wrote: »

Ok , first of all . You don't have to do DPS . You have to do some support . Support you give to your group will increase group DPS more than your own DPS easily .

Second of all , no one gives a crap about sustain . Don't worry about things like ''will I run out of Stamina if my Stam pool is low?'' . As a DK , you can tank with 15k . I tried a build both in PTS and live . 10k Stamina/Magicka pools with 3.5-4k Magicka Recovery . It worked like a charm in both servers . So , no , your Max Stamina is not relevant to your sustain . You can always find a way around it .

Third , you need to know what you want to do . There is only 1 difference between Stamina tanks and Health tanks in terms of group support . Stamina tank does healing with Vigor . Health tank gives shields . That's it . I think you are not very experienced in trials so I need to explain something . In trials , most deaths are caused by one-shots . What I mean by one-shot is , not exactly one attack dealing enough damage to kill . It is combination of difference attacks hitting the same person at the same time . Healing will not save anyone in this kind of situation . Shields do . That is why , I prefer Health tanking . Igneous Shield scales with YOUR Max Health . More Health you have , more shield you will give to your allies .

You need to know what you want to do . Heal or shield . Make your call and go with it . They are both viable . Just don't be a selfish tank . Stamina tanks who don't heal or Health tanks who don't shield are selfish tanks . Make use of your resources for your group . As you learn fights , rest will be cake .

You're correct. I am not very experienced at trials as a tank. I do understand the importance of utility support. Thank you for your elaboration on how to provide utility support as a trials tank.

Galenus_of_Pergamon

paulsimonps wrote: »

Galenus_of_Pergamon wrote: »

Great input everyone!

Given your advice, I am going to build a new Imperial or Argonian tank that will focus much more on damage mitigation for trials. I don't want to give my healers panic attacks.

However, I am still keeping my current DPS-leaning Imperial, Dragonknight Tank for vet dungeons (I've beat Cradle of Shadows Hard Mode with him) and other overworld content.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options/p1

All you will need for damage mitigation. Its not hardy to get up really really high fast. Most things a average tank does will get you to at least 83% total mitigation.

Excellent thread there that you linked. Don't have time to parse through it carefully at the moment, but certainly will this evening.

Asardes

It's more complicated than this (please explain your reasoning...)

As someone said, stamina pool is not really important. All fights have openings when you can drop block and do a couple of heavy attacks to recoup that. With lots of points in tenacity and the heavy armor passive you can probably recover 5-6K per attack. At high health values vigor is not that efficient first because it scales with stamina and weapon damage and second because it has a bigger pool to fill. Your emergency heal will be green dragon blood which scales from missing health and consumes magicka. That's why it's good to have high magicka recovery. It's also affected by blessed CP, major mending from ingenous shield and it grants increased healing by itself and class passive.

Flameheart

At moment no trial boss in any vet trial should oneshot you except the Warrior in Hel Ra on hm (and even there it should not happen because of guard and other stuff), when your tank is built correctly and you are standing in block and have stamina. My guess is that you weren't blocking or some special attacks of mobs hit you while you were without stamina (Uppercut, thrown to the ground etc. - all such stuff brings you out of block too and you are just a victim for the next attack).

In the HoF Trial coming with Morrowind things are different. There inc damage on tanks (and group) will be much higher and because of nerfs to sustain, a health build with 45k+ health might make much more sense, because health is then the only attribute which will still scale with some skills (Dk shield, spell symmetry).

As someone already said, at moment your tank equip should be in sturdy for small pieces and infused for big pieces, all enchanted with prismatic defence glyphs. This might change for Morrowind (all sturdy).

How tanks will handle that for doing different Trials (old Craglorn stuff, MoL, HoF) ? No idea, maybe reallocating attribute points each time, maybe having two different equip sets, maybe a mix of both, maybe they just go with a HoF Setup the whole time and neglect the former builds.