Is Removing CP from pvp the best choice for the game ? Should we have a 1.5 pvp or how it is now ?

Lord_Invel

If zos is really making new campaigns and making battle grounds no cp based then why not just remove CP altogether from pvp and bring back soft caps from 1.5? I believe that many people will return if zos makes a complete pvp backtrack and brings back a new version of dynamic ult and soft caps to pvp zones altogether while removing poisons and reverting skills to how they used to be for every class back in 1.5. If we have a skillful pvp system of 1.5 and a new balanced version of dynamic ult gen then pvp will be BOOMING!!!!

@Wrobel

geonsocal

Lord_Invel wrote: »

If zos is really making new campaigns and making battle grounds no cp based then why not just remove CP altogether from pvp and bring back soft caps from 1.5? I believe that many people will return if zos makes a complete pvp backtrack and brings back a new version of dynamic ult and soft caps to pvp zones altogether while removing poisons and reverting skills to how they used to be for every class back in 1.5. If we have a skillful pvp system of 1.5 and a new balanced version of dynamic ult gen then pvp will be BOOMING!!!!

@Wrobel

let's vote on it - i want @Lord_Invel in charge of pvp going forward...

might as well just rip the band aid off now...

zyk

I would be happy if PVP had leadership who made decisions based entirely on making the best game possible and was willing to defend their vision for the game. It is impossible to please everyone, so choose a direction and make that direction the best it can be.

For example, choose between CP and no CP PVP gameplay and optimize the game for the chosen path.

ZOS is failing to please both everyone and anyone with its lack of vision and direction.

apostate9

We talked about this on another thread, but my personal suggestion is:

* Cyrodiil/BGs (Competitive PVP) No CP at all
* Imperial City, all servers CP enabled always


IC becomes PvX for Tel Var and chuckles, and nobody can say the CPs affected the outcome of the campaign, since the connection to overland PvP is pretty tenuous anyway.

But no CP in overland makes the field as level as anyone deserves for playing competitive PvP in a fantasy MMORPG.

Lord_Invel

geonsocal wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

If zos is really making new campaigns and making battle grounds no cp based then why not just remove CP altogether from pvp and bring back soft caps from 1.5? I believe that many people will return if zos makes a complete pvp backtrack and brings back a new version of dynamic ult and soft caps to pvp zones altogether while removing poisons and reverting skills to how they used to be for every class back in 1.5. If we have a skillful pvp system of 1.5 and a new balanced version of dynamic ult gen then pvp will be BOOMING!!!!

@Wrobel

let's vote on it - i want @Lord_Invel in charge of pvp going forward...

might as well just rip the band aid off now...

I second the motion lmaooo

Stridig

I liked PvP better in 1.5

apostate9

I'd encourage thinking about how we can go forward from here. We aren't going back to 1.5. Ever. It simply isn't going to happen. That's a long wait for a train don't come.

What can we do to push the current game systems in the right direction?

Huggelz

1.5 PvP and before was the golden age, this is just a result of all their pathetic attempts and trying to balance a game at failing.

Minno

After the CP changes and changes to resource gains; I switch my stance to say CP is the better system.

At least the front loaded DMG is countered by 2 stars, gives mag classes cost reduction on Stam defenses, and gives interesting passives (windrunner, unchained, etc )

NCP is terrible on pts due to the proc sets, mag imbalance, and poisons.

All they had to do originally was make everything ncp, and balance the poisons/proc sets while not touching the current resource returns lol.

Lord_Invel

apostate9 wrote: »

I'd encourage thinking about how we can go forward from here. We aren't going back to 1.5. Ever. It simply isn't going to happen. That's a long wait for a train don't come.

What can we do to push the current game systems in the right direction?

remove cp and revert changes to 1.5 lol that's a way to move forward .... it doesn't take much resources to backtrack a patch it literally doesn't take any resources to do so.

Lord_Invel

Stridig wrote: »

I liked PvP better in 1.5

I can speak for most original players that back in 1.5 pvp was more balanced than it is now considering it takes skill into account rather than just build and outnumbering people especially since back then ultimate moves and abilities had counters to every single one of them. That is why pvp was so skillful because of counterplay.

Lord_Invel

Minno wrote: »

After the CP changes and changes to resource gains; I switch my stance to say CP is the better system.

At least the front loaded DMG is countered by 2 stars, gives mag classes cost reduction on Stam defenses, and gives interesting passives (windrunner, unchained, etc )

NCP is terrible on pts due to the proc sets, mag imbalance, and poisons.

All they had to do originally was make everything ncp, and balance the poisons/proc sets while not touching the current resource returns lol.

No cp would be a lot better than the cp system we had now if heavy attacks were bashable, if dynamic ult gen was reworked, if we had soft caps in pvp, and if battle spirit was removed. Back in 1.5 everything was so much more skillful. Now pvp because of cp and changes to core game mechanics have made pvp just a numbers game and a mindless zerging game.

MisterBigglesworth

Call now and we'll throw in a Wabbajack Server - complete with Vampire God Mode - absolutely free!

Poliwrath

zyk wrote: »

I would be happy if PVP had leadership who made decisions based entirely on making the best game possible and was willing to defend their vision for the game. It is impossible to please everyone, so choose a direction and make that direction the best it can be.

For example, choose between CP and no CP PVP gameplay and optimize the game for the chosen path.

ZOS is failing to please both everyone and anyone with its lack of vision and direction.

Zos is clearly pushing noncp; bgs are noncp only, 1 cp camp out of 4. I think they just want to slowly faze it out so people can get more used to noncp before getting rid of cp in pvp completely.

Lord_Invel

Poliwrath wrote: »

zyk wrote: »

I would be happy if PVP had leadership who made decisions based entirely on making the best game possible and was willing to defend their vision for the game. It is impossible to please everyone, so choose a direction and make that direction the best it can be.

For example, choose between CP and no CP PVP gameplay and optimize the game for the chosen path.

ZOS is failing to please both everyone and anyone with its lack of vision and direction.

Zos is clearly pushing noncp; bgs are noncp only, 1 cp camp out of 4. I think they just want to slowly faze it out so people can get more used to noncp before getting rid of cp in pvp completely.

I really hope ur statement holds to fruition because if they do that, they should remove battle spirit and bring back soft caps and just make pvp how it was in 1.5 with minor balance changes coming out every other week like they used to do. That's what made this game so good back then.

Lord_Invel

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

Call now and we'll throw in a Wabbajack Server - complete with Vampire God Mode - absolutely free!

haha obviously we wouldn't want perma bats as a vamp and broken mechanics like that which is why I also stated zos should rework dynamic ult gen rather than just remove it. It was a good system it just needs reworking so it wouldn't be so OP on certain builds.

Twohothardware

Going no cp across the board would be the best choice for actually getting to some state of balance in this game and to stop impacting the larger PvE base every time some build becomes blatantly broke due to CP in PvP not to mention without CP siege actually becomes a deterrent to the massive zergs again.

No-cp in every Campaign would also help somewhat with the current imbalance we have now at least on console between the three Alliances where once Alliance (AD) has far more max CP players than the other two alliances. I know during no-cp week a couple months back Scourge was the most competitive it had been in a long while.

NBrookus

I suspect with the armor and class sustain changes, no CP is going to be very, very rough open world.

Before we go to a no CP PvP state, siege damage needs to be reworked and extra stats need to go back to character levels instead of being tied up in the number of CP someone has.

Rohamad_Ali

I don't enjoy working towards end game for a year to have all my work stripped out by Devs later . I have two fully leveled accounts that took a lot of time and dedication to reach . Also gear sets that took lots of time for each to acquire . I'm finding PVP to be the most punishing system in this MMO the longer I stay . Maybe it's for the greater good or maybe it's a necessity because the Devs did not anticipate the flaws of their own design , I don't know pick one but ... it's still a punch to the preverbal gut every time . I have every right to feel the way I do . I supported the game since launch . I stayed and supported the game during the first exodus of Vet levels . I tested and contributed during CP introduction and the multitude of nerfs that followed years after . At some point I'm going to get tired of my work being pooped on . Especially when there's no consolation prize for time wasted . So this time I'm rewarded with longer entry timers for a campaign I want to enjoy with the build I created .

Battlegrounds are not going to take all the PVP players away from Cyrodiil . The design of each is unimaginative and bland . I suspect they will lose interest quickly with no cp versions and a paywall to participate . They won't draw a lot over pressure of the wait times for the traditionally most active campaigns of Cyrodiil . It will most likely be like dueling and IC . A simple distraction for a short time .

The reason I like CP campaigns is I get to use what I worked for . Siege , Poisons and Proc Suits can be mitigated some . In non CP those things are way more powerful . I own them and use them and kill way more people in No CP but it feels like easy mode cheese doing it . I don't enjoy easy kills , I like a challenge that requires maximizing my build to succeed even if I lose a lot learning .

If they want to do away with CP PVP and have no reward for all the hard work lost , fine but I'm not interested really . I know there will just be another punishment for hard work down the road still . I don't mind when it's a option but I do mind when I'm told how to play .

Drakkdjinn

Removing C.heese P.oints is the way to go. They're a crutch and a major source of dull gameplay homogenization. CP PVP is hardly PvP at all.

Twohothardware

NBrookus wrote: »

I suspect with the armor and class sustain changes, no CP is going to be very, very rough open world.

Before we go to a no CP PvP state, siege damage needs to be reworked and extra stats need to go back to character levels instead of being tied up in the number of CP someone has.

Siege actually being effective and NPC's actually able to deal some damage to players are two of the biggest plusses to no-CP campaigns. There is way way too much zerging with massive groups in Cyrodiil where all you do is just overrun others spamming Ultimates instead of actual PvP fighting. Siege right now in CP campaigns is of no real threat to those zergs when max CP players can just stand there and heal through it.

DisgracefulMind

I mean, they should have just not nerfed PvE claiming it was to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time, and just removed CP from campaigns as it stands now just tweaking a few broken things. They really don't make a lot of sense a lot of the time.

I don't really want 1.5 back. I have glorious memories, but I also know how broken dynamic ult gen was back then. But then again, it's not like we players have a choice in 99% of the decisions anyways.

Lord_Invel

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I mean, they should have just not nerfed PvE claiming it was to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time, and just removed CP from campaigns as it stands now just tweaking a few broken things. They really don't make a lot of sense a lot of the time.

I don't really want 1.5 back. I have glorious memories, but I also know how broken dynamic ult gen was back then. But then again, it's not like we players have a choice in 99% of the decisions anyways.

I feel like everyone ignores me when I say I want a balanced reworked version of dynamic ult gen lmaooo come on guys please read what I say.

Lord_Invel

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I don't enjoy working towards end game for a year to have all my work stripped out by Devs later . I have two fully leveled accounts that took a lot of time and dedication to reach . Also gear sets that took lots of time for each to acquire . I'm finding PVP to be the most punishing system in this MMO the longer I stay . Maybe it's for the greater good or maybe it's a necessity because the Devs did not anticipate the flaws of their own design , I don't know pick one but ... it's still a punch to the preverbal gut every time . I have every right to feel the way I do . I supported the game since launch . I stayed and supported the game during the first exodus of Vet levels . I tested and contributed during CP introduction and the multitude of nerfs that followed years after . At some point I'm going to get tired of my work being pooped on . Especially when there's no consolation prize for time wasted . So this time I'm rewarded with longer entry timers for a campaign I want to enjoy with the build I created .

Battlegrounds are not going to take all the PVP players away from Cyrodiil . The design of each is unimaginative and bland . I suspect they will lose interest quickly with no cp versions and a paywall to participate . They won't draw a lot over pressure of the wait times for the traditionally most active campaigns of Cyrodiil . It will most likely be like dueling and IC . A simple distraction for a short time .

The reason I like CP campaigns is I get to use what I worked for . Siege , Poisons and Proc Suits can be mitigated some . In non CP those things are way more powerful . I own them and use them and kill way more people in No CP but it feels like easy mode cheese doing it . I don't enjoy easy kills , I like a challenge that requires maximizing my build to succeed even if I lose a lot learning .

If they want to do away with CP PVP and have no reward for all the hard work lost , fine but I'm not interested really . I know there will just be another punishment for hard work down the road still . I don't mind when it's a option but I do mind when I'm told how to play .

Many things wrong with the game is it has lost its realistic sense of outcomes. If we had soft caps and siege was nerfed that would fix the cp removal lol these aren't changes that are impossible to make zos just has to care about pvp but they don't. Back in 1.5 pvp was balanced for the most part the only thing that was wrong was perma spamming bats with dks that would never run out of resources.... that could all be changed if zenimax just reworked how dynamic ult was built up but they decided to only remove it because its the easiest thing to do smh. If we had someone that actually gave a *** about the game for pvp players then this game would be thriving right now.

Lord_Invel

NBrookus wrote: »

I suspect with the armor and class sustain changes, no CP is going to be very, very rough open world.

Before we go to a no CP PvP state, siege damage needs to be reworked and extra stats need to go back to character levels instead of being tied up in the number of CP someone has.

I agree with u and its not hard to backtrack patches that a company has installed into the game. It takes little to no resources at all to take away stuff that has been implemented lol. Scaling siege back to how it was in 1.5 check dynamic ult rework it , soft caps check, remove battle spirit check, its not hard at all zos just doenst have anyone that genuinely cares about pvp let alone small scale pvp.

Lord_Invel

Twohothardware wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

I suspect with the armor and class sustain changes, no CP is going to be very, very rough open world.

Before we go to a no CP PvP state, siege damage needs to be reworked and extra stats need to go back to character levels instead of being tied up in the number of CP someone has.

Siege actually being effective and NPC's actually able to deal some damage to players are two of the biggest plusses to no-CP campaigns. There is way way too much zerging with massive groups in Cyrodiil where all you do is just overrun others spamming Ultimates instead of actual PvP fighting. Siege right now in CP campaigns is of no real threat to those zergs when max CP players can just stand there and heal through it.

lol exactly right

DisgracefulMind

Lord_Invel wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I mean, they should have just not nerfed PvE claiming it was to balance both PvP and PvE at the same time, and just removed CP from campaigns as it stands now just tweaking a few broken things. They really don't make a lot of sense a lot of the time.

I don't really want 1.5 back. I have glorious memories, but I also know how broken dynamic ult gen was back then. But then again, it's not like we players have a choice in 99% of the decisions anyways.

I feel like everyone ignores me when I say I want a balanced reworked version of dynamic ult gen lmaooo come on guys please read what I say.

Not ignoring you. I just don't think dynamic ult gen should really come back even reworked.

Durham

Lord_Invel wrote: »

If zos is really making new campaigns and making battle grounds no cp based then why not just remove CP altogether from pvp and bring back soft caps from 1.5? I believe that many people will return if zos makes a complete pvp backtrack and brings back a new version of dynamic ult and soft caps to pvp zones altogether while removing poisons and reverting skills to how they used to be for every class back in 1.5. If we have a skillful pvp system of 1.5 and a new balanced version of dynamic ult gen then pvp will be BOOMING!!!!

@Wrobel

I actually know more that will quit then that will come back if they eliminate CP... Actually more people want Cp... PC is the smallest platform and No CP is only popular here...but even on PC more people play on CP.. No, if you take CP out of PVP then take it out of the game... If they separate PVP from CP balance will always be done around PVE with CP.... Currently there is lots of bitterness in the community.... This expansion will hurt the game in my opinion... I like PVP I like both CP and no CP but most of my friends prefer CP and many of them will leave if they change it...

Joy_Division

Lord_Invel wrote: »

If zos is really making new campaigns and making battle grounds no cp based then why not just remove CP altogether from pvp and bring back soft caps from 1.5? I believe that many people will return if zos makes a complete pvp backtrack and brings back a new version of dynamic ult and soft caps to pvp zones altogether while removing poisons and reverting skills to how they used to be for every class back in 1.5. If we have a skillful pvp system of 1.5 and a new balanced version of dynamic ult gen then pvp will be BOOMING!!!!

@Wrobel

You are asking ZoS to do something they have on multiple occasions said they won't: put in place new character mechanics for PvP (soft caps, dynamic ult regen) but not for PVE. In their mind CP is ancillary to character development so they don;t have a problem simply removing that as ZoS does not think this overhauls the game.

Now as far as what they should do, you are preaching to the choir here. (Well sort of, I loved 1.5 but there were a lot of things that needed reform). I didn't mind no CP on Live even if I don;t prefer it because poisons, procs, and the inclusion of rules made because of the CP system (e.g. blocking and dodging restrictions). But this patch with all the other nerfs goes way too far. As it is I don't find what's on the PTS very fun with CP.

Rohamad_Ali

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I don't enjoy working towards end game for a year to have all my work stripped out by Devs later . I have two fully leveled accounts that took a lot of time and dedication to reach . Also gear sets that took lots of time for each to acquire . I'm finding PVP to be the most punishing system in this MMO the longer I stay . Maybe it's for the greater good or maybe it's a necessity because the Devs did not anticipate the flaws of their own design , I don't know pick one but ... it's still a punch to the preverbal gut every time . I have every right to feel the way I do . I supported the game since launch . I stayed and supported the game during the first exodus of Vet levels . I tested and contributed during CP introduction and the multitude of nerfs that followed years after . At some point I'm going to get tired of my work being pooped on . Especially when there's no consolation prize for time wasted . So this time I'm rewarded with longer entry timers for a campaign I want to enjoy with the build I created .

Battlegrounds are not going to take all the PVP players away from Cyrodiil . The design of each is unimaginative and bland . I suspect they will lose interest quickly with no cp versions and a paywall to participate . They won't draw a lot over pressure of the wait times for the traditionally most active campaigns of Cyrodiil . It will most likely be like dueling and IC . A simple distraction for a short time .

The reason I like CP campaigns is I get to use what I worked for . Siege , Poisons and Proc Suits can be mitigated some . In non CP those things are way more powerful . I own them and use them and kill way more people in No CP but it feels like easy mode cheese doing it . I don't enjoy easy kills , I like a challenge that requires maximizing my build to succeed even if I lose a lot learning .

If they want to do away with CP PVP and have no reward for all the hard work lost , fine but I'm not interested really . I know there will just be another punishment for hard work down the road still . I don't mind when it's a option but I do mind when I'm told how to play .

Many things wrong with the game is it has lost its realistic sense of outcomes. If we had soft caps and siege was nerfed that would fix the cp removal lol these aren't changes that are impossible to make zos just has to care about pvp but they don't. Back in 1.5 pvp was balanced for the most part the only thing that was wrong was perma spamming bats with dks that would never run out of resources.... that could all be changed if zenimax just reworked how dynamic ult was built up but they decided to only remove it because its the easiest thing to do smh. If we had someone that actually gave a *** about the game for pvp players then this game would be thriving right now.

I remember 1.5 and its pros and cons . I'm not against change , I'm tired of working towards end game systems and those systems being removed with no compensation for time wasted . Soft caps were fine . Elder robes online was messy . Dynamic Ult gen was trash and easily abused .

I don't like being stripped of progression . Right now we have choices . If you like no cp , it is available . If you like cp , it's available . Next week the choice still exists but has its availability changed . I don't like that .

Some people say CP is a crutch . I think gear sets are a crutch . Proc sets a bigger crutch and poisons a huge crutch . Next patch Oblivion damage will be another crutch . Unless we all fight in green crafted non set gear , those bonuses are doing something for the characters power that ability is not . So the whole crutch propaganda is just perspective . I'd be happy to have no gear sets , just abilities like the Secret World PVP had . I did great there . It was all player skill driven , not gear . All abilities were available , no classes . That's balance .

If we look through rose tinted glasses 1.5 was awesome compared to now . Problem is we have all worked hard to progress . No one needs to be forced into giving what they worked for because some don't like it . This seems to be happening anyways . No CP in battlegrounds . They did not remove CP from PVE in Marrowind though . Seems biased . They didn't remove proc sets or poisons . Seems biased . If we want to make people give up progression then why not make everyone give up everything they worked for and start from scratch .

The Dev team in PVP is never going to roll back servers ever . It's just not something they will even entertain so even if this was the solution , it won't be considered by them .

Lord_Invel

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Lord_Invel wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I don't enjoy working towards end game for a year to have all my work stripped out by Devs later . I have two fully leveled accounts that took a lot of time and dedication to reach . Also gear sets that took lots of time for each to acquire . I'm finding PVP to be the most punishing system in this MMO the longer I stay . Maybe it's for the greater good or maybe it's a necessity because the Devs did not anticipate the flaws of their own design , I don't know pick one but ... it's still a punch to the preverbal gut every time . I have every right to feel the way I do . I supported the game since launch . I stayed and supported the game during the first exodus of Vet levels . I tested and contributed during CP introduction and the multitude of nerfs that followed years after . At some point I'm going to get tired of my work being pooped on . Especially when there's no consolation prize for time wasted . So this time I'm rewarded with longer entry timers for a campaign I want to enjoy with the build I created .

Battlegrounds are not going to take all the PVP players away from Cyrodiil . The design of each is unimaginative and bland . I suspect they will lose interest quickly with no cp versions and a paywall to participate . They won't draw a lot over pressure of the wait times for the traditionally most active campaigns of Cyrodiil . It will most likely be like dueling and IC . A simple distraction for a short time .

The reason I like CP campaigns is I get to use what I worked for . Siege , Poisons and Proc Suits can be mitigated some . In non CP those things are way more powerful . I own them and use them and kill way more people in No CP but it feels like easy mode cheese doing it . I don't enjoy easy kills , I like a challenge that requires maximizing my build to succeed even if I lose a lot learning .

If they want to do away with CP PVP and have no reward for all the hard work lost , fine but I'm not interested really . I know there will just be another punishment for hard work down the road still . I don't mind when it's a option but I do mind when I'm told how to play .

Many things wrong with the game is it has lost its realistic sense of outcomes. If we had soft caps and siege was nerfed that would fix the cp removal lol these aren't changes that are impossible to make zos just has to care about pvp but they don't. Back in 1.5 pvp was balanced for the most part the only thing that was wrong was perma spamming bats with dks that would never run out of resources.... that could all be changed if zenimax just reworked how dynamic ult was built up but they decided to only remove it because its the easiest thing to do smh. If we had someone that actually gave a *** about the game for pvp players then this game would be thriving right now.

I remember 1.5 and its pros and cons . I'm not against change , I'm tired of working towards end game systems and those systems being removed with no compensation for time wasted . Soft caps were fine . Elder robes online was messy . Dynamic Ult gen was trash and easily abused .

I don't like being stripped of progression . Right now we have choices . If you like no cp , it is available . If you like cp , it's available . Next week the choice still exists but has its availability changed . I don't like that .

Some people say CP is a crutch . I think gear sets are a crutch . Proc sets a bigger crutch and poisons a huge crutch . Next patch Oblivion damage will be another crutch . Unless we all fight in green crafted non set gear , those bonuses are doing something for the characters power that ability is not . So the whole crutch propaganda is just perspective . I'd be happy to have no gear sets , just abilities like the Secret World PVP had . I did great there . It was all player skill driven , not gear . All abilities were available , no classes . That's balance .

If we look through rose tinted glasses 1.5 was awesome compared to now . Problem is we have all worked hard to progress . No one needs to be forced into giving what they worked for because some don't like it . This seems to be happening anyways . No CP in battlegrounds . They did not remove CP from PVE in Marrowind though . Seems biased . They didn't remove proc sets or poisons . Seems biased . If we want to make people give up progression then why not make everyone give up everything they worked for and start from scratch .

The Dev team in PVP is never going to roll back servers ever . It's just not something they will even entertain so even if this was the solution , it won't be considered by them .

I really do understand where ur coming from and its hard seeing ur progress being squandered every patch but zos needs to start choosing a direction man. They are wandering aimlessly trying to appease ROLE PLAYERS IN PVP!!!! WTF DO ROLEPLAYERS DO IN PVP THEY DONT EVEN COMPETE IN THE FIGHT SO WHY DOES BALANCE EVEN MATTER TO THEM SMH. Like zos really has to get its priorities set in motion. If they do however backtrack to the combat system of 1.5 u will instantly feel as sense of progression because u will need to practice skill combos and rotations and all myriads of counterplay tactics in 1v1s and 1vx the skill cap will rise it just will.

And if zos makes a really high skill cap and removes cp making everyone level 50 in pvp character progression will be a non issue because one can always get better by simply making their skills acute and always being in the need to practice on learning the games mechanics.