Should all Heavy Attacks take 2 seconds to fully charge?

dpencil1

After doing some testing on a target skeleton to see what the new heavy attack durations and resource regen was, these are the numbers I got:

(Note, all of these are with 75 points into Tenacity)

Lightning: 4140 magicka restored every 2.5 sec

Fire/Ice: 3218 every 2.18 sec

Resto: 4635 every 2.36 sec

Bow: 3105 stamina restored every 2.38 sec

2-Hander: 2765 every every 2.05 sec

Dual Wield: 2050 every 1.64 sec

While I think these changes are in the right direction, I believe all heavy attack durations should universally be 2 seconds to charge. Of course, resource and damage adjustment would need to be made to keep current damage and resource gain even.

I'm also open to leaving Dual Wield at 1.6.

What do you think?

Tyrobag

In b4 removal for being a "petition" :P

SirCritical

Tyrobag wrote: »

In b4 removal for being a "petition" :P

Before I opened this thread, I just knew what will be that single comment, shown in the list.

dpencil1

Yes. Make Heavy Attacks on all weapons 2 seconds to fully charge.

Is it against the forum rules to make a "petition" thread? I wasn't aware if that. I can reword the OP title.

Wolfenbelle

2 seconds is a long time, especially for melee builds. If ZOS wants people to use heavy attacks for sustain, there should not be any charge up duration. Heavy attacks should be nearly instant. Otherwise it's just as many people have said...combat will become a lot slower.

Also, you got magicka and stamina returns in your test, but what about health? What returns that? Are we now supposed to put all 64 attribute points into health and rely on heavy attacks and stamina or magicka enchants, jewelry, sets, etc?

Izaki

No. Keep the different durations currently on the PTS (listed in the OP)

I kinda like the fact that they all are different. Its less monotonous.

LiquidPony

No. Keep the different durations currently on the PTS (listed in the OP)

Why? You say you "believe" that all heavy attacks should be the same length but don't explain why.

dpencil1

Yes. Make Heavy Attacks on all weapons 2 seconds to fully charge.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Why? You say you "believe" that all heavy attacks should be the same length but don't explain why.

Well, with the outcry over "boring" long heavy attacks and most magicka players using Lightning as their main weapon, the change from 3.0.4 doesn't really do much to break that for them. Since 2 seconds would be a little more "fast paced," it would seem to deal with the player complaint and could still preserve the same potency in terms of damage and resource gain. Again, for Dual Weild leaving it a 1.6 would be cool with me.

Vaoh

Too hard to decide here. I want the lightning heavy attack channel to not feel so slow yet remain so mandatory.
Others are in a decent spot.

Avran_Sylt

No. Keep the different durations currently on the PTS (listed in the OP)

For both gameplay reasons as well as aesthetic reasons, no. Why do I want my two daggers to swing just as quickly as a giant slab of metal?

And anyway, adding diversity to heavy attacks is a good thing, let's players try out different builds. Test out various interactions between sets/passives and enchantments.

dpencil1

Yes. Make Heavy Attacks on all weapons 2 seconds to fully charge.

@Avran_Sylt
I already said a couple times that I'm cool with Dual Wield remaining at 1.6. 2-Hander is already at 2 sec. I'm just talking about decreasing the bow, resto, and Destro staves by 0.2-0.5 sec, so that they are in line with the 2-Hander speed.

Where are all the people who were furious about the boringly long heavy attack time?? Help me out people!

Dorrino

dpencil1 wrote: »

After doing some testing on a target skeleton to see what the new heavy attack durations and resource regen was, these are the numbers I got:

(Note, all of these are with 75 points into Tenacity)

Lightning: 4140 magicka restored every 2.5 sec

Fire/Ice: 3218 every 2.18 sec

Resto: 4635 every 2.36 sec

Bow: 3105 stamina restored every 2.38 sec

2-Hander: 2765 every every 2.05 sec

Dual Wield: 2050 every 1.64 sec

While I think these changes are in the right direction, I believe all heavy attack durations should universally be 2 seconds to charge. Of course, resource and damage adjustment would need to be made to keep current damage and resource gain even.

I'm also open to leaving Dual Wield at 1.6.

What do you think?

Ok. There's a huge, but understandable misconception here.

The actual charge up times of the heavies are exactly 1 second less than your numbers. So ~1.4sec for bow, 0.65sec for dw etc. That's the time it takes for the heavy attack to charge to full from the moment you press the button till the moment it fires.

The reason why all your numbers are 1sec higher is that the moment your heavy attack fires the Light/Heavy attacks hidden cooldown starts. This cooldown prevents any heavy or light attack to fire/start charging during this 1 sec. Skills/bashes/dodges etc are not affected by this cooldown.

Lightnight staff and resto staff are a bit different in this respect and the cooldown that starts right after their channel ends is 400ms and 700ms respectively. So lightning staff charge time is ~2.1sec and resto staff - ~1.6sec.

Thus if you propose to, say, reduce the interval between bow heavy attacks to 2 sec, you effectively ask to reduce its charge time from 1.4sec to 1sec. Which would have huge implications for the whole combat design.

dpencil1

Yes. Make Heavy Attacks on all weapons 2 seconds to fully charge.

@Dorrino I collected my times from Combat Metrics, looking at resource return from heavy attacks. I would burn all my magicka or stamina, then just hold down LMB and let my character heavy attack for a while, and then checked the durations of each regen event in Combat Metrics. I am suggesting that, by this measure, the slower attacks be sped up to 2 sec intervals (basically the duration that 2-Handers currently have). When the actual wind up occurs given weapon attack cool downs seems irrelevant. Also, it is possible to attack faster than once every second with a weapon. You can even medium attack on a flame staff every 0.7 seconds or so.

Remember the goal here is helping further create the feel of "fast paced" combat. I don't see a reason why weapon heavy attacks can't be a few tenths of a second faster. I'm not asking for their damage and resource return values to remain the same but just be sped up. That would be a big buff. Just scale back damage and resource gain to match current levels with a faster charge time.

MrBeatDown_

Stamina heavy attacks like S/b and 2 hander need to be sped up. They are too slow and after this new patch it will basically be a nerf against stamina Dk players using heavy attacks with these weapons. These types of characters don't have any range. Its a huge nerf against a stamina Dk since they don't have any mobility, Aoe Disruptions, or any kind of escape mechanism except one that cost too much when your engaged in combat. Take Rapid's and its morphs for example. If your in combat with a stamina Dk and you cast rapids, You wont get very far since stamina does not regen when running. All the multiple roots, snares, and CC's pretty much make the Stamina Dk the least mobile character in the game.

So we need faster heavy attacks for stamina to make up for all the Utility that we do not have. Dk's are just sitting ducks when it comes to this.

Xvorg

No. Keep the different durations currently on the PTS (listed in the OP)

dpencil1 wrote: »

After doing some testing on a target skeleton to see what the new heavy attack durations and resource regen was, these are the numbers I got:

(Note, all of these are with 75 points into Tenacity)

Lightning: 4140 magicka restored every 2.5 sec

Fire/Ice: 3218 every 2.18 sec

Resto: 4635 every 2.36 sec

Bow: 3105 stamina restored every 2.38 sec

2-Hander: 2765 every every 2.05 sec

Dual Wield: 2050 every 1.64 sec

While I think these changes are in the right direction, I believe all heavy attack durations should universally be 2 seconds to charge. Of course, resource and damage adjustment would need to be made to keep current damage and resource gain even.

I'm also open to leaving Dual Wield at 1.6.

What do you think?

Different attacks, different effects.

Full heavy 2H attack gives an extra 10% dmg on the next attack
Full Heavy DW is faster because has no effect
Full heavy bow used to be hold
Full heavy destro has different efects on their own. Full heavy lit does moar dmg (AoE) and has te chance to give concusion. That must be the slower attack in the game (because of the dmg potential)

Dorrino

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Dorrino I collected my times from Combat Metrics, looking at resource return from heavy attacks. I would burn all my magicka or stamina, then just hold down LMB and let my character heavy attack for a while, and then checked the durations of each regen event in Combat Metrics.

Yep, i understood your measurement methodology.

dpencil1 wrote: »

I am suggesting that, by this measure, the slower attacks be sped up to 2 sec intervals (basically the duration that 2-Handers currently have).

This was clear as well.

dpencil1 wrote: »

When the actual wind up occurs given weapon attack cool downs seems irrelevant.

This is not just relevant. This is crucial.

Heavy attacks have wind up time for 2 reasons:

1. To allow to provide more damage in one attack at the expense of the wind up.
2. To allow a lot of secondary effects to happen in a controllable fashion. (this includes resources replenishment).

Going with 1. you propose to reduce heavies wind-up by up to 30%. I can only assume you'd reduce their damage by the same amount. This (along with light attacks buffs) will make them lose their identity since now their damage will be more similar to light attacks.

Additionally if you standardize wind-up+cooldown times wind-ups will still be different between different heavies. In a real fight you don't do heavy attack->heavy attack. You do heavy attack->skill->heavy attack, so heavy attacks cooldowns are irrelevant. Your approachs will make flame/frost heavies to wind-up in 1.25 sec, while bow heavies to wind-up in 1 sec. Then you need to explain why destro heavies wind-up longer.

About 2. - the game has a whole lot of great sets that proc on 'fully charged heavy attack'. If you drastically reduce the wind-ups of heavies you will buffs all the other secondary effects that happens along with fully charged heavies. Thus you will need to re-balance them all.

dpencil1 wrote: »

Also, it is possible to attack faster than once every second with a weapon. You can even medium attack on a flame staff every 0.7 seconds or so.

Thank you for this. I didn't bother to test both flame and frost staves. Indeed both of them start a cooldown of 700-750ms just like resto staff.

dpencil1 wrote: »

Remember the goal here is helping further create the feel of "fast paced" combat.

Ok.

dpencil1 wrote: »

I don't see a reason why weapon heavy attacks can't be a few tenths of a second faster.

Because it's not 'a few tenths of a second faster' it's 30% faster wind-up.

dpencil1 wrote: »

I'm not asking for their damage and resource return values to remain the same but just be sped up. That would be a big buff. Just scale back damage and resource gain to match current levels with a faster charge time.

See above.