Infinite Magicka and a Build to Utilize it in Morrowind

Solariken

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Solariken actually several points as to why Pariah mitigates far more damage than heartland.

1. Heartland has no resistance on the 2 3 or 4 item set bonuses
2. Heartland gives a flat 5% DMG reduction, at minimum Pariah, when both the 3 4 and 5th item set bonuses gives approximately 6-7% damage mitigation and then increases as health lowers. The top end being 13k total resistance from the set
3. Because heartland is not resistance it is subject to the multiplicative equation meaning at 20k resistance (average heavy armor user resistance) you're actually only gaining approximately 3.5% damage reduction from the set.
4. Because Pariah is resistance all damage mitigation is not subject to the multiplicative equation effect

That's why I say Pariah provides more mitigation than any other set when compared in a vacuum.

Edit: Penetration is very high in this environment, my build can achieve about 40kish resistance, meaning against the vast majority of builds I get full mitigation, and at a minimum 20k resistance (say LA, using sharpened, major fracture and spinner's) which is approximately 30% mitigation

Yeah I suppose if you are in heavy armor and pumping your resistances up near the cap then Heartland becomes a little weaker. I would guess Heartland would be the stronger set when paired with 5 light or 5 medium though and I would also guess that you could achieve a greater sum of offensive/defensive power using Heartland over Pariah, but I haven't tested side by side.

Also, if you plan on using any shields in that build, Heartland is going to shine like the sun since it's mitigation applies to shields.

Waffennacht

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Solariken actually several points as to why Pariah mitigates far more damage than heartland.

1. Heartland has no resistance on the 2 3 or 4 item set bonuses
2. Heartland gives a flat 5% DMG reduction, at minimum Pariah, when both the 3 4 and 5th item set bonuses gives approximately 6-7% damage mitigation and then increases as health lowers. The top end being 13k total resistance from the set
3. Because heartland is not resistance it is subject to the multiplicative equation meaning at 20k resistance (average heavy armor user resistance) you're actually only gaining approximately 3.5% damage reduction from the set.
4. Because Pariah is resistance all damage mitigation is not subject to the multiplicative equation effect

That's why I say Pariah provides more mitigation than any other set when compared in a vacuum.

Edit: Penetration is very high in this environment, my build can achieve about 40kish resistance, meaning against the vast majority of builds I get full mitigation, and at a minimum 20k resistance (say LA, using sharpened, major fracture and spinner's) which is approximately 30% mitigation

Yeah I suppose if you are in heavy armor and pumping your resistances up near the cap then Heartland becomes a little weaker. I would guess Heartland would be the stronger set when paired with 5 light or 5 medium though and I would also guess that you could achieve a greater sum of offensive/defensive power using Heartland over Pariah, but I haven't tested side by side.

Also, if you plan on using any shields in that build, Heartland is going to shine like the sun since it's mitigation applies to shields.

Now that's absolutely true and something I had not considered. In that scenario yes heartland becomes more desirable that's some pretty clever thinking

Lexxypwns

disregard

Solariken

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Solariken actually several points as to why Pariah mitigates far more damage than heartland.

1. Heartland has no resistance on the 2 3 or 4 item set bonuses
2. Heartland gives a flat 5% DMG reduction, at minimum Pariah, when both the 3 4 and 5th item set bonuses gives approximately 6-7% damage mitigation and then increases as health lowers. The top end being 13k total resistance from the set
3. Because heartland is not resistance it is subject to the multiplicative equation meaning at 20k resistance (average heavy armor user resistance) you're actually only gaining approximately 3.5% damage reduction from the set.
4. Because Pariah is resistance all damage mitigation is not subject to the multiplicative equation effect

That's why I say Pariah provides more mitigation than any other set when compared in a vacuum.

Edit: Penetration is very high in this environment, my build can achieve about 40kish resistance, meaning against the vast majority of builds I get full mitigation, and at a minimum 20k resistance (say LA, using sharpened, major fracture and spinner's) which is approximately 30% mitigation

Yeah I suppose if you are in heavy armor and pumping your resistances up near the cap then Heartland becomes a little weaker. I would guess Heartland would be the stronger set when paired with 5 light or 5 medium though and I would also guess that you could achieve a greater sum of offensive/defensive power using Heartland over Pariah, but I haven't tested side by side.

Also, if you plan on using any shields in that build, Heartland is going to shine like the sun since it's mitigation applies to shields.

Now that's absolutely true and something I had not considered. In that scenario yes heartland becomes more desirable that's some pretty clever thinking

Except it doesn't at all, you don't want damage mitigation on blazing shield. You WANT it to take maximum damage, the more damage your shield eats the higher your damage output goes.

Its for this reason that Heartland is really, really, bad on this build imo. In a build with this much health and resists the blazing shield isn't really something you spam to survive, its a good mitigation tool for sure, but it really shines when its exploding early and often imo. If you switch to heartland you'll lose a ton of resists, take much more damage with the shield down, and become much more reliant on the shield as a defensive tool instead of offensive. Unfortunately, the cost of blazing shield means that you're not really going to out sustain people if you have to start shield spamming just to stay alive, this means the resistances are far more valuable.

Imo, what makes this build shine is that your sustain tool synergizes so well with your defensive tools.

Eww Blazing Shield build? Sure everything you said is correct and could be effective if you plan on only fighting potatoes.

I was only going on the rough build concept he listed in the OP (ie Spell Symm + EG, I didn't see Blazing Shield listed) and assumed the HP would be <30k with a more offensive damage rotation.

Lexxypwns

Solariken wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Solariken actually several points as to why Pariah mitigates far more damage than heartland.

1. Heartland has no resistance on the 2 3 or 4 item set bonuses
2. Heartland gives a flat 5% DMG reduction, at minimum Pariah, when both the 3 4 and 5th item set bonuses gives approximately 6-7% damage mitigation and then increases as health lowers. The top end being 13k total resistance from the set
3. Because heartland is not resistance it is subject to the multiplicative equation meaning at 20k resistance (average heavy armor user resistance) you're actually only gaining approximately 3.5% damage reduction from the set.
4. Because Pariah is resistance all damage mitigation is not subject to the multiplicative equation effect

That's why I say Pariah provides more mitigation than any other set when compared in a vacuum.

Edit: Penetration is very high in this environment, my build can achieve about 40kish resistance, meaning against the vast majority of builds I get full mitigation, and at a minimum 20k resistance (say LA, using sharpened, major fracture and spinner's) which is approximately 30% mitigation

Yeah I suppose if you are in heavy armor and pumping your resistances up near the cap then Heartland becomes a little weaker. I would guess Heartland would be the stronger set when paired with 5 light or 5 medium though and I would also guess that you could achieve a greater sum of offensive/defensive power using Heartland over Pariah, but I haven't tested side by side.

Also, if you plan on using any shields in that build, Heartland is going to shine like the sun since it's mitigation applies to shields.

Now that's absolutely true and something I had not considered. In that scenario yes heartland becomes more desirable that's some pretty clever thinking

Except it doesn't at all, you don't want damage mitigation on blazing shield. You WANT it to take maximum damage, the more damage your shield eats the higher your damage output goes.

Its for this reason that Heartland is really, really, bad on this build imo. In a build with this much health and resists the blazing shield isn't really something you spam to survive, its a good mitigation tool for sure, but it really shines when its exploding early and often imo. If you switch to heartland you'll lose a ton of resists, take much more damage with the shield down, and become much more reliant on the shield as a defensive tool instead of offensive. Unfortunately, the cost of blazing shield means that you're not really going to out sustain people if you have to start shield spamming just to stay alive, this means the resistances are far more valuable.

Imo, what makes this build shine is that your sustain tool synergizes so well with your defensive tools.

Eww Blazing Shield build? Sure everything you said is correct and could be effective if you plan on only fighting potatoes.

I was only going on the rough build concept he listed in the OP (ie Spell Symm + EG, I didn't see Blazing Shield listed) and assumed the HP would be <30k with a more offensive damage rotation.

yeah, sorry, I missed that. disregard lol

Waffennacht

Lmao, yeah it can easily be blazing shield... But I'm not that kinda guy lmao

ToRelax

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

Waffennacht

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

Normally I would agree, however the point is with these mechanics you do control the out come. Normally the issue is needing magicka and getting Stam, as an example. With a Sorcerer, Stam can be converted into magicka and health, health can be converted into magicka and magicka is magicka or potentially can be converted into Stam.

At 10% chance per practically every action, and a 6.5 sec duration, a resource return is highly probable.

I'm working right now on a PvE version and it's working really well as a tank.

Lexxypwns

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

EG fell out of meta, but it's not because it isn't reliable.

1. Nobody has needed the EG sustain since like IC, this rendered the set mostly useless
2. Malubeth bug/over performance and shift to tank meta.
3. Damage proc set era, most people running veli/Selene/tremor

EG has always been an amazing set and is very reliable, IMO. It just fell out of favor because of stark meta shifts and power creep rendering extra data in pointless.

Izaki

Spell Symetry + Healing Ward.

Ron_Burgundy_79

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

EG fell out of meta, but it's not because it isn't reliable.

1. Nobody has needed the EG sustain since like IC, this rendered the set mostly useless
2. Malubeth bug/over performance and shift to tank meta.
3. Damage proc set era, most people running veli/Selene/tremor

EG has always been an amazing set and is very reliable, IMO. It just fell out of favor because of stark meta shifts and power creep rendering extra data in pointless.

I have actually switched back to E.G in preparation for next patch. It's still very strong, but all of the reasons you listed are correct.

Waffennacht

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Spell Symetry + Healing Ward.

Which is great especially for a light armor user. I just found that I no longer needed a resto staff. If you are going to run a resto, Healing Ward is a must especially if you want to pair it with mist form

Lexxypwns

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

EG fell out of meta, but it's not because it isn't reliable.

1. Nobody has needed the EG sustain since like IC, this rendered the set mostly useless
2. Malubeth bug/over performance and shift to tank meta.
3. Damage proc set era, most people running veli/Selene/tremor

EG has always been an amazing set and is very reliable, IMO. It just fell out of favor because of stark meta shifts and power creep rendering extra data in pointless.

I have actually switched back to E.G in preparation for next patch. It's still very strong, but all of the reasons you listed are correct.

Only one of them exists next patch and this setup allows you to turn all EG procs profitable. You either get stam and open up the option dodge roll/block, health which you convert back to magika, or magika.

Damage proc sets will be in favor next patch again(resource free burst damage), as much as ever, however, this platform allows you to get infinite sustain and still possibly wear 2 damage sets. Imagine the damage subbing out Pariah for spinners or soulshine in a more offensive oriented build, you won't need skoria.

Waffennacht

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

EG fell out of meta, but it's not because it isn't reliable.

1. Nobody has needed the EG sustain since like IC, this rendered the set mostly useless
2. Malubeth bug/over performance and shift to tank meta.
3. Damage proc set era, most people running veli/Selene/tremor

EG has always been an amazing set and is very reliable, IMO. It just fell out of favor because of stark meta shifts and power creep rendering extra data in pointless.

I have actually switched back to E.G in preparation for next patch. It's still very strong, but all of the reasons you listed are correct.

Only one of them exists next patch and this setup allows you to turn all EG procs profitable. You either get stam and open up the option dodge roll/block, health which you convert back to magika, or magika.

Damage proc sets will be in favor next patch again(resource free burst damage), as much as ever, however, this platform allows you to get infinite sustain and still possibly wear 2 damage sets. Imagine the damage subbing out Pariah for spinners or soulshine in a more offensive oriented build, you won't need skoria.

Exactly. The possibilities are truly endless, start factoring in a healer... And omg

ToRelax

Lexxypwns wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

EG fell out of meta, but it's not because it isn't reliable.

1. Nobody has needed the EG sustain since like IC, this rendered the set mostly useless
2. Malubeth bug/over performance and shift to tank meta.
3. Damage proc set era, most people running veli/Selene/tremor

EG has always been an amazing set and is very reliable, IMO. It just fell out of favor because of stark meta shifts and power creep rendering extra data in pointless.

It's always been a great set, but only when your resource management was otherwise reliable. It did come with the problem of increasing your opponent's damage after they interrupted it and providing enemy Templars with free Repentance (at least for a Sorc) but at least the latter is no longer a problem (or boon for Templars). You can cut into the total of your regen, cost reduction and other relatively reliable mechanics like Constitution, Channelled Focus, Betty Netch, Resourceful etc. and make up for it with Engine Guardian. Of course all of these mechanics, including EG, have their advantages and disadvantages in different situations, but they will all come into effect during an average fight.
Now these resource management mechanics are balanced (at least in theory) with a risk/reward system: The most powerful returns like EG, Prisoner or Dark Exchange are gated behind things like RNG procs, being interruptable or sprinting (and thus being unable to activate skills), whereas things like Helping Hands or Adrenaline Rush are very reliable, yet not as powerful when they take effect. Arguably, some like Dark Exchange or Adrenaline Rush might turn out too strong, but I don't think to the point where you can rely more on them than the more reliable mechanics. If you run out of resources because you had some bad luck with EG, you die, however well your system might work in a perfect scenario. Maybe I'm wrong, but time will tell.

edit: typo

Flameheart

Although it's a PvP theme, the core idea is already spread for tank builds in HoF for Morrowind. Imagine a tank with 40-50k hp using spell symmetry followed by a overblown DK shield (scales with max health) :-) Your Dragon Blood will scale with your max health too. Health seems to be the only ressource which scales with some skills at all after Morrowind.

Ishammael

I still don't understand Pariah. Why not vampire cloak? Or reactive? Or pirate Skelly?

Waffennacht

Ishammael wrote: »

I still don't understand Pariah. Why not vampire cloak? Or reactive? Or pirate Skelly?

Vampire mitigates less damage than Pariah by 2 to 11%. Reactive is a choice but it has conditions and the other set bonus don't mesh as well. Reactive is a better choice than vampire and It can take Pariah's place if you wish. Also Pariah has synergy with Symmetry.

Skele is a monster set so it can be used with Pariah, however Symmetry works best with a summoned pet ally healer. If you already have a healer, Skele would be the next best damage mitigation choice.

@Ishammael outside of reactive, but this is why I say vacuum, Pariah prevents more damage than any other set when you compare all set bonuses against​ any other set (without conditions)

My further testing is actually showing this to be true

Emma_Overload

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

I agree with this completely. The only "gimmick" set I've had luck with is the Bloodborn set, which returns resources while you're actually attacking.

Waffennacht

Emma_Overload wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

I agree with this completely. The only "gimmick" set I've had luck with is the Bloodborn set, which returns resources while you're actually attacking.

That's odd. In my experience, I could easily rely on, Dark Conversion especially, as long as I acted accordingly. Streak + Dodge roll.

I also understand such control of yourself, your opponent, and your proccs are just not for everyone, only certain players can utilize such sets and abilities to their max potential.

Vapirko

So we've gone from sustain nerfs to infinite sustain lol. A whole new round of nerf threads coming up.

DocFrost72

Magicka Sorceror Tank with infinite stamina to block and infinite magicka to cast ward. No need to bring a pocket healer...

Minno

Emma_Overload wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

I agree with this completely. The only "gimmick" set I've had luck with is the Bloodborn set, which returns resources while you're actually attacking.

For the most part they require a special way to sustain. To rely on them unconditionally is a problem, but if you pull different sources of sustain they become more powerful. Like for bloodthorn, what happens if they dodge the attack? Or reflect? You'd need to change the condition to ensure it hits but that's not negative, that's PvP lol.

For prisoners, which I've been using exclusively, it's about the moments before getting close and making those seconds count. With gap closers being thrown to the wayside, having a set to turn Stam into mag and the speed to offset the Stam cost, if it takes 2-3 seconds to reach a target, that's 6k back in your pocket if you have at least 1k base regen to add to it.

Add windrunner and it's 10% extra mag base cost then add light armor and it becomes a set that let's you run offensively or defensively where managing your Stam due to too much sprinting is the obvious downside (plus you are lock out of skills while sprinting.)

Waffennacht

Minno wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

I agree with this completely. The only "gimmick" set I've had luck with is the Bloodborn set, which returns resources while you're actually attacking.

For the most part they require a special way to sustain. To rely on them unconditionally is a problem, but if you pull different sources of sustain they become more powerful. Like for bloodthorn, what happens if they dodge the attack? Or reflect? You'd need to change the condition to ensure it hits but that's not negative, that's PvP lol.

For prisoners, which I've been using exclusively, it's about the moments before getting close and making those seconds count. With gap closers being thrown to the wayside, having a set to turn Stam into mag and the speed to offset the Stam cost, if it takes 2-3 seconds to reach a target, that's 6k back in your pocket if you have at least 1k base regen to add to it.

Add windrunner and it's 10% extra mag base cost then add light armor and it becomes a set that let's you run offensively or defensively where managing your Stam due to too much sprinting is the obvious downside (plus you are lock out of skills while sprinting.)

You made the excellent point. You don't rely on them unconditionally. That was what my first experiment was, using tons of health Regen, but to no surprise it wasn't as fluid as the versions I use now. They are supplemental, and allow for more control and diversity when dealing with resources. It's nice, for example, to be able to convert the health from Sentinel into magicka when you're either full or in no immediate danger.

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

In my experience it's never turned out well to rely on such conditional regen mechanisms as Engine Guardian, Dark Exchange or Prisoner's Rags. They are very powerful when you can a) sustain reasonably well without them for a time and b) make good use of the resources when you do get them. But don't get your hopes too high of being able sustain mainly due to these mechanics. That only works when your playstyle let's your proc returns constantly, which cuts heavily into your options of action.

I agree with this completely. The only "gimmick" set I've had luck with is the Bloodborn set, which returns resources while you're actually attacking.

For the most part they require a special way to sustain. To rely on them unconditionally is a problem, but if you pull different sources of sustain they become more powerful. Like for bloodthorn, what happens if they dodge the attack? Or reflect? You'd need to change the condition to ensure it hits but that's not negative, that's PvP lol.

For prisoners, which I've been using exclusively, it's about the moments before getting close and making those seconds count. With gap closers being thrown to the wayside, having a set to turn Stam into mag and the speed to offset the Stam cost, if it takes 2-3 seconds to reach a target, that's 6k back in your pocket if you have at least 1k base regen to add to it.

Add windrunner and it's 10% extra mag base cost then add light armor and it becomes a set that let's you run offensively or defensively where managing your Stam due to too much sprinting is the obvious downside (plus you are lock out of skills while sprinting.)

You made the excellent point. You don't rely on them unconditionally. That was what my first experiment was, using tons of health Regen, but to no surprise it wasn't as fluid as the versions I use now. They are supplemental, and allow for more control and diversity when dealing with resources. It's nice, for example, to be able to convert the health from Sentinel into magicka when you're either full or in no immediate danger.

Yup. Some might not consider these sets BiS either (some even looked down on them when I mentioned prisoner.). But to some of us, it's about pulling a balanced source for Regen, DMG, and defense. And that philosophy for PvP makes the game exciting; the ability to know that I won't need to just rely on one source for each.

I just hope more players look at all the sets to find a use for them. Constantly fighting selenes or viper gets old fast lol.

Waffennacht

So alcast put up his builds, they run Symmetry/Balance...

I'm glad I posted this first, but goes to show you it's legit

Minno

Waffennacht wrote: »

So alcast put up his builds, they run Symmetry/Balance...

I'm glad I posted this first, but goes to show you it's legit

I guess im lucky prisoners is Stam traits with a mag 5pc bonus. People don't want to touch that set with a 10 meter pole lol.

Prospero_ESO

Chokethorn never procced on me for jabs or the beam, it only procced for healing abilities be it class based or from resto staff but never from things that healed through damage.