PSA for sets like Automaton, Netch, War Maiden

SodanTok

1. They do get buffed by Major Brutality/Sorcery
   
   A = Automaton; N - Netch's Touch; W = War Maiden; M B/S = Major Brutality/Sorcery
   Bonus damage from these sets in purple quality is 386
   Expected damage is damage of Brutality/Sorcery in normal situation increased by A/N/W without buff applied
2. They increase damage of all abilities that deal DAMAGE OF SAME TYPE. Poison damage is not affected by Bonus Physical. Elemental damage is not affected by Bonus Magic. Magic Damage is not affected by Bonus Shock ,...
3. They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks (if it is same damage type)
4. They do not increase damage of proc sets - tested Automaton with Kra'gh/Stormfist and Netch's Touch with Stormfist (the shock part of damage)
5. They do not increase damage of enchantments - tested War Maiden with Magic Damage and Netch's Touch with Shock damage

No passives, CP, attributes. Same gear for all sets. In tests without using 5th piece bonus used mismatched gear with same stats.
Weapons used -> Purple Bow, Purple 2H Sword, Purple Lightning staff, Purple Resto staff. All precise with Deal X Magic Damage ench (btw not buffed by War Maiden)
All skills unmorphed except Power Surge used to gain both Major Buffs. In all situations no skill other the one tested and Power Surge were slotted.
Performed on standard 3M health dummy skeleton on PTS.

Peekachu99

Shouldn't War Maiden be reduced somewhat since it's broader in scope than many of the other "Buff X 400" sets?

IcyDeadPeople

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Shouldn't War Maiden be reduced somewhat since it's broader in scope than many of the other "Buff X 400" sets?

There are not that many magic damage abilities. Magicka NB seems to have the most.

DocFrost72

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Shouldn't War Maiden be reduced somewhat since it's broader in scope than many of the other "Buff X 400" sets?

There are not that many magic damage abilities. Magicka NB seems to have the most.

And even they are using ele wall, fire/shock staves, and ele rage, so not even their full toolkit goes through.

@Peekachu99 Stamina sorcerors, on the other hand...

Peekachu99

IcyDeadPeople wrote: »

Peekachu99 wrote: »

Shouldn't War Maiden be reduced somewhat since it's broader in scope than many of the other "Buff X 400" sets?

There are not that many magic damage abilities. Magicka NB seems to have the most.

I thought most of the Templar stuff was "magic", too, even though it reads and/ or should be fire.

But yeah, on second thought I might pick this up for my magblade. Kinda bored with the destruction mastery set.

DRXHarbinger

War Maiden only benefits dw templar tbh. Only skill that misses out is vamp bane. Sun still needs updating though and then it'll he half decent for magdk.

Peekachu99

A thought: WM + Soulshine + Jesus Beam would be absolutely toxic, no?

Merlin13KAGL

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks

You sure about that with Netch's, as it specifies abilities, not attacks?

You sure the increased damage isn't from the +Magicka and +129 SD, the 3 & 4 piece of the set provides? (For the no buff/bonus, are you running another set that give you +M +SD for a valid baseline?)

EDIT: n/m...just saw the line about mismatching the 5 pc. Results are odd, but it wouldn't be the first time what something does and what ZoS says it does are two completely different things.

SodanTok

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks

You sure about that with Netch's, as it specifies abilities, not attacks?

You sure the increased damage isn't from the +Magicka and +129 SD, the 3 & 4 piece of the set provides? (For the no buff/bonus, are you running another set that give you +M +SD for a valid baseline?)

EDIT: n/m...just saw the line about mismatching the 5 pc. Results are odd, but it wouldn't be the first time what something does and what ZoS says it does are two completely different things.

Well I would not be surprised if light/heavy (well I havent tested light rly, but it should be same if it affects heavies) are interally simple no cost abilities

Masel

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. They do get buffed by Major Brutality/Sorcery
   
   A = Automaton; N - Netch's Touch; W = War Maiden; M B/S = Major Brutality/Sorcery
   Bonus damage from these sets in purple quality is 386
   Expected damage is damage of Brutality/Sorcery in normal situation increased by A/N/W without buff applied
2. They increase damage of all abilities that deal DAMAGE OF SAME TYPE. Poison damage is not affected by Bonus Physical. Elemental damage is not affected by Bonus Magic. Magic Damage is not affected by Bonus Shock ,...
3. They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks (if it is same damage type)

No passives, CP, attributes. Same gear for all sets. In tests without using 5th piece bonus used mismatched gear with same stats.
Weapons used -> Purple Bow, Purple 2H Sword, Purple Lightning staff, Purple Resto staff. All precise with Deal X Magic Damage ench (btw not buffed by War Maiden)
All skills unmorphed except Power Surge used to gain both Major Buffs. In all situations no skill other the one tested and Power Surge were slotted.
Performed on standard 3M health dummy skeleton on PTS.

I knew that for a while and made a post about it, but the rumour still persisted.

Good to have a second test

SodanTok

Added 4 and 5 for clarifications on monster sets and enchantements

Masel92 wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. They do get buffed by Major Brutality/Sorcery
   
   A = Automaton; N - Netch's Touch; W = War Maiden; M B/S = Major Brutality/Sorcery
   Bonus damage from these sets in purple quality is 386
   Expected damage is damage of Brutality/Sorcery in normal situation increased by A/N/W without buff applied
2. They increase damage of all abilities that deal DAMAGE OF SAME TYPE. Poison damage is not affected by Bonus Physical. Elemental damage is not affected by Bonus Magic. Magic Damage is not affected by Bonus Shock ,...
3. They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks (if it is same damage type)

No passives, CP, attributes. Same gear for all sets. In tests without using 5th piece bonus used mismatched gear with same stats.
Weapons used -> Purple Bow, Purple 2H Sword, Purple Lightning staff, Purple Resto staff. All precise with Deal X Magic Damage ench (btw not buffed by War Maiden)
All skills unmorphed except Power Surge used to gain both Major Buffs. In all situations no skill other the one tested and Power Surge were slotted.
Performed on standard 3M health dummy skeleton on PTS.

I knew that for a while and made a post about it, but the rumour still persisted.

Good to have a second test

Yeah that rumor is rooter so hard that even another thread (like this mine) wont help much

t3hdubzy

I dont get how you isolating the buff to base spell damage versus the increase dmg from the set 5th piece. Can you help explain?

SodanTok

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I dont get how you isolating the buff to base spell damage versus the increase dmg from the set 5th piece. Can you help explain?

By finding value of damage before and after the buff and calculating the difference.

Basically if 5th piece bonus is not affected by buffs it will stay same in both situations.

Base damage is literally the same for all tests (because we only insert or remove the 5th set bonus damage). So Major Brutality and Sorcery affect in the same way always.

jakeedmundson

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I dont get how you isolating the buff to base spell damage versus the increase dmg from the set 5th piece. Can you help explain?

My guess is this...

First:
using divine 4 pieces of, lets say netch's touch, with magicka enchant and 1 random piece of divine armor with magicka enchant

Test the dps numbers and record

Second:
using divine 5 pieces of netch's touch with magicka enchant (so now the only difference is the 5 pc bonus)

Test the dps numbers and record

t3hdubzy

jakeedmundson wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I dont get how you isolating the buff to base spell damage versus the increase dmg from the set 5th piece. Can you help explain?

My guess is this...

First:
using divine 4 pieces of, lets say netch's touch, with magicka enchant and 1 random piece of divine armor with magicka enchant

Test the dps numbers and record

Second:
using divine 5 pieces of netch's touch with magicka enchant (so now the only difference is the 5 pc bonus)

Test the dps numbers and record

But how do you tell the difference between 4 pieces with major sorcery and 5 pieces with major sorcery?

Are you saying do damage with 4 pieces, buffed and unbuffed. Take that difference and remove it from 5 pieces buffed and compare it to 5 pieces unbuffed?

kylewwefan

So....does this change BiS for anything or any particular build? For a magic toon would it be better to run 2x5 piece over monster? Are any of these 400x weapon or spell power sets gonna be better than Hundings or Julianos now? Would it be good to run them in conjunction with a crafted set? Does it just give different options with similar results.

Honestly, I just spent a boatload of gold on gold sun jewelry......for testing on mag DK. I'll never pull crazy numbers that good players get anyways, but always looking for something to help me out.

SodanTok

t3hdubzy wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I dont get how you isolating the buff to base spell damage versus the increase dmg from the set 5th piece. Can you help explain?

My guess is this...

First:
using divine 4 pieces of, lets say netch's touch, with magicka enchant and 1 random piece of divine armor with magicka enchant

Test the dps numbers and record

Second:
using divine 5 pieces of netch's touch with magicka enchant (so now the only difference is the 5 pc bonus)

Test the dps numbers and record

But how do you tell the difference between 4 pieces with major sorcery and 5 pieces with major sorcery?

Are you saying do damage with 4 pieces, buffed and unbuffed. Take that difference and remove it from 5 pieces buffed and compare it to 5 pieces unbuffed?

How? You take difference between buffed 4piece and buffed 5piece. That difference is either same as unbuffed 4piece and unbuffed 5piece OR higher if that bonus was indeed buffed too.

SodanTok

kylewwefan wrote: »

So....does this change BiS for anything or any particular build? For a magic toon would it be better to run 2x5 piece over monster? Are any of these 400x weapon or spell power sets gonna be better than Hundings or Julianos now? Would it be good to run them in conjunction with a crafted set? Does it just give different options with similar results.

Honestly, I just spent a boatload of gold on gold sun jewelry......for testing on mag DK. I'll never pull crazy numbers that good players get anyways, but always looking for something to help me out.

Probably not. I am not one of those people on top that think about this stuff, but imho just the existence of poison injection and VMA weapons invalidates Automaton from ever being even close to BiS. Probably same for magicka based sets too (tho Sun and War Maiden will probably be better for magDK/magNB than automaton for any stam build).

Imo they are better used in PVP

jakeedmundson

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I dont get how you isolating the buff to base spell damage versus the increase dmg from the set 5th piece. Can you help explain?

My guess is this...

First:
using divine 4 pieces of, lets say netch's touch, with magicka enchant and 1 random piece of divine armor with magicka enchant

Test the dps numbers and record

Second:
using divine 5 pieces of netch's touch with magicka enchant (so now the only difference is the 5 pc bonus)

Test the dps numbers and record

But how do you tell the difference between 4 pieces with major sorcery and 5 pieces with major sorcery?

Are you saying do damage with 4 pieces, buffed and unbuffed. Take that difference and remove it from 5 pieces buffed and compare it to 5 pieces unbuffed?

How? You take difference between buffed 4piece and buffed 5piece. That difference is either same as unbuffed 4piece and unbuffed 5piece OR higher if that bonus was indeed buffed too.

I think he was just confused about the last row of the table - "expected damage as if not buffed..."

It got me for a second too.. had to look a littler closer at it.
Just means buffing the base damage by a certain % excluding the 5pc bonus of X set.

With the major sorcery buff on... it'll still buff all of your damage... but it WILL NOT include the extra 400 (in this case, 386) spell damage from the last set piece.

SodanTok

jakeedmundson wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

jakeedmundson wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I dont get how you isolating the buff to base spell damage versus the increase dmg from the set 5th piece. Can you help explain?

My guess is this...

First:
using divine 4 pieces of, lets say netch's touch, with magicka enchant and 1 random piece of divine armor with magicka enchant

Test the dps numbers and record

Second:
using divine 5 pieces of netch's touch with magicka enchant (so now the only difference is the 5 pc bonus)

Test the dps numbers and record

But how do you tell the difference between 4 pieces with major sorcery and 5 pieces with major sorcery?

Are you saying do damage with 4 pieces, buffed and unbuffed. Take that difference and remove it from 5 pieces buffed and compare it to 5 pieces unbuffed?

How? You take difference between buffed 4piece and buffed 5piece. That difference is either same as unbuffed 4piece and unbuffed 5piece OR higher if that bonus was indeed buffed too.

I think he was just confused about the last row of the table - "expected damage as if not buffed..."

It got me for a second too.. had to look a littler closer at it.
Just means buffing the base damage by a certain % excluding the 5pc bonus of X set.

With the major sorcery buff on... it'll still buff all of your damage... but it WILL NOT include the extra 400 (in this case, 386) spell damage from the last set piece.

My 'equation' for that row is basically => [Buffed without bonus] + ( [Bonus without buff] - [No bonus and no buff] )

jakeedmundson

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

So....does this change BiS for anything or any particular build? For a magic toon would it be better to run 2x5 piece over monster? Are any of these 400x weapon or spell power sets gonna be better than Hundings or Julianos now? Would it be good to run them in conjunction with a crafted set? Does it just give different options with similar results.

Honestly, I just spent a boatload of gold on gold sun jewelry......for testing on mag DK. I'll never pull crazy numbers that good players get anyways, but always looking for something to help me out.

Probably not. I am not one of those people on top that think about this stuff, but imho just the existence of poison injection and VMA weapons invalidates Automaton from ever being even close to BiS. Probably same for magicka based sets too (tho Sun and War Maiden will probably be better for magDK/magNB than automaton for any stam build).

Imo they are better used in PVP

I'm actually going to try this out... i run a hybrid pet/heavy attack build with my sorc.

5 pc necro
5 pc netch's (after morrowind changes 2pc bonus)
sharpened mal lightning

The only thing i use that isn't lightning... is my pet and curse.
Prob won't be anything amazing but it could be worth a shot. Plus its easy to find gear.
Netch's will basically take the place of illambris 2 pc and IA 3 pc.

eso_nya

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. They do get buffed by Major Brutality/Sorcery
   
   A = Automaton; N - Netch's Touch; W = War Maiden; M B/S = Major Brutality/Sorcery
   Bonus damage from these sets in purple quality is 386
   Expected damage is damage of Brutality/Sorcery in normal situation increased by A/N/W without buff applied
   ...
   No passives, CP, attributes. Same gear for all sets. In tests without using 5th piece bonus used mismatched gear with same stats.
   Weapons used -> Purple Bow, Purple 2H Sword, Purple Lightning staff, Purple Resto staff. All precise with Deal X Magic Damage ench (btw not buffed by War Maiden)
   All skills unmorphed except Power Surge used to gain both Major Buffs. In all situations no skill other the one tested and Power Surge were slotted.
   Performed on standard 3M health dummy skeleton on PTS.

Can you explain how u calculated the expected dmg pls?
How much penetration was there? Edit: ignore that one, doesnt make a difference here
What was the tooltip of the skills?
Does Warmaiden increase the tooltip of shards?

Not trying to flame you. Just wondering cause, all over your numbers fit. But they r slightly off of what i would expect to see, just based on unbuffed dmg and 1132 SD, and the margin is pretty much as much as the expected effect of +/-80 SD.

SodanTok

eso_nya wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. They do get buffed by Major Brutality/Sorcery
   
   A = Automaton; N - Netch's Touch; W = War Maiden; M B/S = Major Brutality/Sorcery
   Bonus damage from these sets in purple quality is 386
   Expected damage is damage of Brutality/Sorcery in normal situation increased by A/N/W without buff applied
   ...
   No passives, CP, attributes. Same gear for all sets. In tests without using 5th piece bonus used mismatched gear with same stats.
   Weapons used -> Purple Bow, Purple 2H Sword, Purple Lightning staff, Purple Resto staff. All precise with Deal X Magic Damage ench (btw not buffed by War Maiden)
   All skills unmorphed except Power Surge used to gain both Major Buffs. In all situations no skill other the one tested and Power Surge were slotted.
   Performed on standard 3M health dummy skeleton on PTS.

Can you explain how u calculated the expected dmg pls?
How much penetration was there?
What was the tooltip of the skills?
Does Warmaiden increase the tooltip of shards?

Not trying to flame you. Just wondering cause, all over your numbers fit. But they r slightly off of what i would expect to see, just based on unbuffed dmg and 1132 SD, and the margin is pretty much as much as the expected effect of +/-80 SD.

Expected dmg = [Buffed without bonus] + ( [Bonus without buff] - [No bonus and no buff] )
could be wrongly calculated or I made wrong assumptions, the more important thing is that 5th bonus increases damage under Major Buff by more than it does without it

No penetration. (I think 100 is base... so probably 100). 2H ulti ignores resistance so it is full penetration.

Did not check tooltip of those skills. They often lie. But tooltip of 2H ulti was same as damage dealt in all situations I think.

Same as above. Tooltips lie so I didnt care about them.

Dont forget all skills calculate damage differently. Heavy bow take like ~2.2x the weapon damage while something like Crystal Shard only ~1.5x

Nichts

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. ...
2. ...
3. They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks (if it is same damage type)

That is incorrect. I just tested it on a new pts char. Exactly the same numbers.

SodanTok

Nichts wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. ...
2. ...
3. They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks (if it is same damage type)

That is incorrect. I just tested it on a new pts char. Exactly the same numbers.

So why not divulge more than "incorrect". I have literally the numbers of heavy attacks with and without the set. And they are obviously different so what did you do?

I havent tested light attack so there is slight chance only heavies are affected

t3hdubzy

I did my own test with only sun armor on, no weapons. I used a whip on a skeletom dummy. No crit values were used, and several attacks were used to ensure baseline damages.

Spell damage was 646 and 775 buffed.

With 5 pieces
4191 unbuffed
4398 buffed

With 4 pieces (-324 magika)
3756 unbuffed
3887 buffed.

To anaylze this further i divided the damage done by the spell damage.

For 4191 / 646 = 6.48
For 4398 / 775 = 5.68
Difference of .8

For 3756 / 646 = 5.81
For 3888 / 776 = 5.01
Difference of .8

Hypothetically with sun
Base spell dmg is 1032 and 1161
For 4191 / 1032 = 4.06
For 4398 / 1161 = 3.78
Difference is .28



To me this says that the base spell damage alone if the only thing modified by major sorcery.

Maybe theres a better way to do this, but under these circumstances, with cp enabled, i would of thought to see a much bigger damage difference.

SodanTok

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I did my own test with only sun armor on, no weapons. I used a whip on a skeletom dummy. No crit values were used, and several attacks were used to ensure baseline damages.

Spell damage was 646 and 775 buffed.

With 5 pieces
4191 unbuffed
4398 buffed

With 4 pieces (-324 magika)
3756 unbuffed
3887 buffed.

To anaylze this further i divided the damage done by the spell damage.

For 4191 / 646 = 6.48
For 4398 / 775 = 5.68
Difference of .8

For 3756 / 646 = 5.81
For 3888 / 776 = 5.01
Difference of .8

Hypothetically with sun
Base spell dmg is 1032 and 1161
For 4191 / 1032 = 4.06
For 4398 / 1161 = 3.78
Difference is .28



To me this says that the base spell damage alone if the only thing modified by major sorcery.

Maybe theres a better way to do this, but under these circumstances, with cp enabled, i would of thought to see a much bigger damage difference.

Hard to say from your data. Too many unknowns. Like passivess, CP, what gear you used, what gear you replaced 5th bonus with, etc..

t3hdubzy

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

t3hdubzy wrote: »

I did my own test with only sun armor on, no weapons. I used a whip on a skeletom dummy. No crit values were used, and several attacks were used to ensure baseline damages.

Spell damage was 646 and 775 buffed.

With 5 pieces
4191 unbuffed
4398 buffed

With 4 pieces (-324 magika)
3756 unbuffed
3887 buffed.

To anaylze this further i divided the damage done by the spell damage.

For 4191 / 646 = 6.48
For 4398 / 775 = 5.68
Difference of .8

For 3756 / 646 = 5.81
For 3888 / 776 = 5.01
Difference of .8

Hypothetically with sun
Base spell dmg is 1032 and 1161
For 4191 / 1032 = 4.06
For 4398 / 1161 = 3.78
Difference is .28



To me this says that the base spell damage alone if the only thing modified by major sorcery.

Maybe theres a better way to do this, but under these circumstances, with cp enabled, i would of thought to see a much bigger damage difference.

Hard to say from your data. Too many unknowns. Like passivess, CP, what gear you used, what gear you replaced 5th bonus with, etc..

I only wore 5 pieces of the set in question and did not replace it with any other set pieces.

Therefore you can see that im also missing light passives, of which the only one that matters is 4884 penetration comparing 4pc to 5pc. I hadnt thought about this during but wouldnt u expect a lot higher numbers if i did have a 5 pc bonus on top of 38y flame damage?

Lord_Eomer

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. They do get buffed by Major Brutality/Sorcery
   
   A = Automaton; N - Netch's Touch; W = War Maiden; M B/S = Major Brutality/Sorcery
   Bonus damage from these sets in purple quality is 386
   Expected damage is damage of Brutality/Sorcery in normal situation increased by A/N/W without buff applied
2. They increase damage of all abilities that deal DAMAGE OF SAME TYPE. Poison damage is not affected by Bonus Physical. Elemental damage is not affected by Bonus Magic. Magic Damage is not affected by Bonus Shock ,...
3. They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks (if it is same damage type)
4. They do not increase damage of proc sets - tested Automaton with Kra'gh/Stormfist and Netch's Touch with Stormfist (the shock part of damage)
5. They do not increase damage of enchantments - tested War Maiden with Magic Damage and Netch's Touch with Shock damage

No passives, CP, attributes. Same gear for all sets. In tests without using 5th piece bonus used mismatched gear with same stats.
Weapons used -> Purple Bow, Purple 2H Sword, Purple Lightning staff, Purple Resto staff. All precise with Deal X Magic Damage ench (btw not buffed by War Maiden)
All skills unmorphed except Power Surge used to gain both Major Buffs. In all situations no skill other the one tested and Power Surge were slotted.
Performed on standard 3M health dummy skeleton on PTS.

U nerf team has commenced to bring eso @ nerf online..

For ur information, weapon damage buff even stamina based damage either poison or physcial and aame goea with magicka.

Major brutailty and major sorcery buff WD and SD so i do not see any problem!

Nichts

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Nichts wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

1. ...
2. ...
3. They do indeed increase damage of light/heavy attacks (if it is same damage type)

That is incorrect. I just tested it on a new pts char. Exactly the same numbers.

So why not divulge more than "incorrect". I have literally the numbers of heavy attacks with and without the set. And they are obviously different so what did you do?

I havent tested light attack so there is slight chance only heavies are affected

Just to be sure, I did the following:

- Create new char on pts.
- Don't set CP, dont skill passives / actives - anything.
- Equip 4 pieces of War Maiden, 1 Piece of mothers sorrow and do HAs on puppet.
- Equip 5 pieces of War Maiden and do HAs on puppet.

⇒ All HAs did exactly the same damage.

The piece of MS is just to ensure no dirt effects of the game happen (e.g. mundus is equiped even if not selected or something like that.)
So I had exactly the same basis on both tests, with the exception of the 5th bonus of War Maiden.

I used a fire staff, which was one of the 4/5 pieces War Maiden.

acw37162

Thanks for posting your findings.