Stamina pve dps : ideas and changes for weapons and classes

RoyJade

Hi everyone !

This topic is an attempt to summarize all my ideas about pve stamina dps. I also have some for magicka dps, including staff change (frost staff, I'm looking at you) and class tweaks (NB), but that's for another topic.

Some points before starting :
- I'm not a really good english writer, so sorry for all the errors, wrong world and so on I may put here and here.
- None of these points are perfect. These are ideas, but need some more simulations and thinking in order to not break the game. Even applied, we would need some mont in order to know exactly if they are really goods.
- I'm aware that stamina lack a sort of mitigation in raid situations, when magicka have damage shield. I haven't found an idea yet (I do not want a stamina shield), except a nerf to these types of damage and a huge nerf on shield's utility in raids. I would like to see these mechanism being countered by hots instead of shields.
- This post is pve-focused. I tried to not add any impact to pvp (because it need a whole different reflexion and I'm not feeling able to do it), but I'm aware that they may have some.

Please remain constructive in your comment. Posts as “you don't understand, they don't like stamina / X class, they don't want us to be competitive” aren't good for the game nor for you. This post is not here to complain, but to find good ideas for endgame pve and especially for the stamina side.


Two handed

The two handed tree is well know as an utility weapon, as a pvp damage one with his gap closer and the high-burst-cc dizzying swing, but also as a really weak pve weapon. My suggestion is to make it a powerful aoe-oriented pve weapon, with good single target option but still inferior to dual wield.

• Uppercut : stay as now.
• Dizzying swing : pvp morph, stay as now.
• Wrecking blow : reduce the cast time to 0,5 second, reduce the damage.

The objective is to make wrecking blow a proper spammable, without changing it in pvp. The reduced cast time would act the same as flurry's change before, making it less clunky and more reliable.
The damage output should be equal or a little lower than surprise attack (empower buff included, if the buff is not wiped).

• Critical charge : since gap closer aren't really useful in pve, I don't see any change to do.

• Cleave : stay the same.
• Carve : stay the same.
• Brawler : make it a circular swing, who deal aoe damage on a 360° area instead of the cone attack.

Cleave's boost at 3.0.3 was good, but not enough. The skill does now 80% of twin slashes (78% of rending slashes) damage, while costing 52% more. It can be fine since the damage is aoe, but the maelstrom addition make slashes far more powerful. An increase to master weapon may solve the issue, a nerf to maelstrom may too.
The skill also need more range, especially a circular one. Since carve add minor heroism (which is good for dps), brawler seem the best morph for that. We won't have a “best” morph anymore, only two interesting morphs even at high level.

• Reverse slash and morph : stay the same.

This skill is already good, and the two morphs are interesting. Reverse slice especially add a good aoe addition.

• Momentum : stay the same.

Buffing this skill would directly impact pvp, and it would need a big increase in order to be really good for pve. So I think it's fine to let it at his actual state.

• Berserker strike : stay the same

I doesn't see any good change on this skill without transforming it in something else or making it overpowered in pvp, but I would like to see it being competitive comparing to dawnbreaker.

• Forceful : add 50/100% of damage to up to five nearby target (4-6 meter range).

Tri focus is the main reason why shock staff is so good in aoe. Two handed originally has the same bonus when both were bad, so why not buffing it seriously ? This only would make two handed a really powerful aoe weapon in pve, especially with cleave, reverse slice and follow up.

• Heavy weapons : changes shared with dual wield, see below.
  
• Balanced blade, follow up, battle rush : same as now. Battle rush may gain a X stamina gained over 10 second instead of the regen, or stay exactly the same.

Dual wield

Dual wield is the most powerful stamina weapon in pve. It has a great spammable, a useable aoe, a great dot, a good aoe dot and a good ultimate. Furthermore, it has an incredible powerful (and overpowered) maelstrom weapon. Does it need a nerf ? Well, on the maelstrom weapon yes, but the tree itself is fine in my opinion, one point excepted : twin blade and blunt.

Twin blade and blunt / heavy weapons : actually, the power from daggers is extremely powerful, the swords are jack of all trade, the axes are unreliable and the maces are really weaks due to their mechanism. Here is my proposal :

• Swords : good in my opinion, that's my reference point. Boost only damage, but all damage.
• Daggers : boost every damage and heal, so should be a little weaker than swords with 150% critical bonus. In fact, I think that it should be equal to swords with 170% critical bonus, in order to be a little more powerful for NB and templars but not for everyone.
• Axes : the bleed is too unreliable. I would prefer a X% increase to all dots. Pure dot based builds should benefit from them more than from daggers or swords.
• Maces : the 10% less enemy armor applied after all penetration is far too weak. Instead, make it either a flat penetration bonus (who give more power than sword when not overpenetrating), or a bonus to direct hit (to be on par with axes and give more room for direct hit based builds).

That will open some interesting builds, and give a lot more variety. As everything else, the numbers should of course be carefully looked at.


Bow

Actually, the bow is a good off-bar weapon, due to two good dots. It's the only distance-based stamina weapon, but it's still to weak for being a competitive main bar weapon. I think the most interesting point with bow is the possible synergy between some skills and passives, so this is my main priority with these changes.

• Snipe : good as it is, both morphs have a good secondary effect, focused aim especially because of the range increase (see below).

• Volley and morph : good enough.

• Scatter shot : increase the range to at least 15 meter, apply only the knockdown when the target is near.
• Magnum shot : greatly increase the damage, remove the knock on you. In other world, make it “the” bow instant-cast spammable.
• Draining shot : add a heal for every shot, but less powerful than the one when the target is disoriented.

This change would add two interesting points. First, it will allow scatter shot to benefit from the long shot passive (8-10% increased damage at 15 meters, and the full 12% increase if focused aim is used before), second it would add a proper instant-cast spammable to the bow toolkit, instead of changing snipe. The change to draining shot would give a more reliable heal to the bow tree, similar to bloodthirst and momentum.
The change to the knockdown's range would prevent the increased range for being too powerful especially in pvp. I know that some people use the magnum shot own knockdown, but I don't see any other solution for now (except forgetting definitively about scatter shot for pve).

• Arrow spray : same as now.
• Bombard : increase the cone radius.
• Acid spray : boost the dot component.

The bow aoe skill lack some power. With the recent change to the slow and the immobilization, this skill is not so good in pvp, so a radius/damage boost shouldn't hurt. In pve, these change would add some needed damage, without being more powerful than two handed or steel tornado (because of the range).

• Poison arrow and morph : same as now.

• Rapid fire : same as now (or perhaps an increase to toxic barrage's dot).

• Long shots : either same as now with the increased range on scatter shot, or deal up to 10% damage when at the maximum skill range. For the second choice, focused aim should boost the damage even more with the increased range.

The second choice would make full exploitation of this passive difficult, but would open some synergy with focused aim. Of course, ZOS can also decide that a target under focused aim's effect would be considered at 5 more meter, consistently increasing all bow's damage with the passive even if not at full range.

• Accuracy, ranger hawk's eye, hasty retreat : same as now.

Class dots and tiny changes

Stamina classes need more classes dot in order to be competitive. Because of that, I suggest some changes, along with an idea I got for NB.

DragonKnight :

• World in ruin : increase all fire and poison damage by 6%.

This change would be consistent with sorcerer's energized passive. It should give a good buff to stam DK, but some damage skills should be changed a little (especially on the magDK side) in order to not make it overpowered.

• Noxious breath : increase dot damage.

The magicka counterpart of this skill is powerful because of the 10% flame damage increase, but noxious is not really competitive as now. Increasing the dot component should fit with the DK theme and add some dps to their tools.

Sorcerer :

• Liquid splash : reduce the range (maximum 12 meter) and give two more second duration.
• Liquid lightning : add the range component as the morph (in order to be similar than live).
• Liquid flood : change it to a short range tornado who deal physical damage. Perhaps add an increased damage over time, similar to hurricane (with the same final damage output).

It will boost sorcerer's dps in pve without boosting them too much in pvp, especially if the increased damage is here.

Nightblade :

• Dead stroke : remove the 20% damage increase, add the major focus buff on the user and the major target debuff on the target. A target affected by major target take 20% more damage from players with the major focus buff. The result will be the same as now, just with a new buff/debuff name (but see below)
• Mark target : add the minor target debuff to the target and minor focus buff on yourself. A target affected by minor target take 8% more damage from a player with the minor focus buff.

This new target debuff will add some dps to the NB toolkit, and will boost mark target useability in pve. In pvp, the mark is clearly visible and prevent pure gank, so it should be fine.
Why a debuff and a buff ? To prevent problems with two or more NB using these skils on a target, erasing each others bonus. And to give a NB ultimate a group minor focus for increased group utility, why not.

• Agony : apply the damage if the target is cc-immune and increase it, along with the duration.
• Prolonged suffering transform it as a stamina skill, and give even more time to the dot.
• Malefic wreath : transform the dot into a aoe target-centered one.

These changes may give NB an additional much needed class dot.

• Power extraction : boost the damage of this morph, in order to be a little better than steel tornado most of the time.

Templars :

• Balanced warrior : increase the weapon damage boost (6% maybe), or give instead a flat weapon damage boost (300 ?).

I do not have so many ideas for stamplars, but I think repentance should be changed for a great resource return tools (and without the need of a corpse). Perhaps change repentance to absorb X stamina per second per target (up to 6), or boost stam regen by X% per target (in order to prevent magplar permablocker), or add minor staminasteal to the actual morph ?
They also lack an another class dot (if we consider power of the light as a class dot).

Alliance war :

• Caltrops : increase the damage even more, especially with the actual cost.

The changes to caltrops was a step in the right direction, but wasn't enough to provide a solid aoe dot.

There is also some possible changes to warrior guild skill line, such as a proper grap for silver leash or a boost for ring of preservation.



Feel free to react, criticism or add some of your ideas and suggestions. Just remember to stay civil and constructive.
I won't be able to respond really fast, but I'll read everything and eventually respond when I'll have the time.

Thanks for reading !

LorDrek

Cleave - +30% more dmg, on dot +20%
DK - volatile armor need return physical dmg.
Shifting standart change to poison standart
Cauterize change poison dmg same bonuses as flames of oblivion
Igneus weapons remove major sorcery, give +40% to ha
Igneus schield scales to max stat or max lvl
Eternal mountain duration 40%
Elder dragon + 5% stamina rec. For each drac pover abillity slotted
Scaled armor + 3300 armor resistance +3300 spell res

Vapirko

For Stam DKs we're in a good place for single target dps because of molten armaments and since heavy attacking seems to be the best way of dpsing/retaining resources next patch. I don't think too much is going to change for us in terms of rotation minus adding in molten arms (which lasts a really long time anyway) and then weaving in heavy attacks and tossing caltrops into each rotation. Venomous claw, endless hail, rearming trap and all the dw skills are still going to be just as useful. I'm happy that my stam dk will be viable in pve still, not as optimistic about pvp. I still don't think 2H is going to be able to beat DW in terms of dps. 2H just simply doesn't have a good enough AOE even with the cleave buff, which will probably be more useful in pvp.

Edit: I think you're right that some sort of circular 2H attack could be very cool and make 2H viable in pve as more top notch dps. The DW aoe is just very, very strong and ranged which makes it hard to beat.

Morgul667

This is nice constructive post :-)

Ladislao

Thanks for your suggestion. But it is much more complicated question:
1) You try to balance PVE, but what about PVP effort? At first sight it is negative.
2) Balance is not only about skills but traits and sets also. So many sets (and traits) are out of sight that it would be better to first deal with them.
3) Stamina dps problem is aoe and range. You want to make them an analog of magicians. But i think they should have their own special advantages, such as better sustain (like in Morrowind) or other. I'm sure the developers also have their own vision, which they adhere to.

RoyJade

Ladislao wrote: »

Thanks for your suggestion. But it is much more complicated question:
1) You try to balance PVE, but what about PVP effort? At first sight it is negative.
2) Balance is not only about skills but traits and sets also. So many sets (and traits) are out of sight that it would be better to first deal with them.
3) Stamina dps problem is aoe and range. You want to make them an analog of magicians. But i think they should have their own special advantages, such as better sustain (like in Morrowind) or other. I'm sure the developers also have their own vision, which they adhere to.

1) I'm not feeling good enough about pvp question to give a proper suggestion. I still gather a maximum amount of informations and data, but I know pve far much than pvp. That's why I tried to not affect pvp with these changes.

2) You're right. Traits especially need to be reworked, and a lot of set need adjustments or total rework. That's also a whole new topic, and I actually pick every set one by one in order to see how they can be improved. One of the thing I don't want is to make one class really powerful because of a set, as ravager/valkyn did for stamplars, maelstrom dagger did for stam classes, burning spellweave/grothdarr did for magicka classes and so on. Set may give new opportunities, they have to support some specialities, but not be the absolute killer of every other builds.

3) Well, I do not want to make them equal to magicka specs. I would like to make stam equivalent, with their own strength and weakness. They already have better sustain (which I feel good with, due to the need of stamina for defensive purpose), but that's actually their unique advantage. With such changes, they would be able to be specced in pure aoe, pure distance or pure singe target, or mix them as they want. Their skills made them more effective for some specs : DK add singe and aoe, sorc add strong aoe, NB add strong single and templar add mixed single/aoe, but they won't be determined only by their class. It's the "play as you want" ZOS speaks about.
Magicka can also spec into aoe or single, but they can have both really easily. So magicka would be good everywhere when stamina would be a little more specialized and with more sustain, but none of them would be excluded from a particular activity because he is not good for it. At least, that's the perfect state I'm looking for (and I know we won't get it, but we can have something near it).

rafaelcsmaia

This threas should have more replies. The current status of pve, specially hardmode and such, doesnt allow even a single stam dps on the roster. Either stam should have its aoe and dot damage increased by a large margin to justify being melee or they should have some reliable damage mitigation for survival. Lets be honest, 18k extra fake health by pressing a button is kinda hard to compete with

Izaki

Liking the suggestion for Wrecking Blow.

I think that the cast time should be reduced to 0.6 sec and the damage cut by 40%.

As far as Maces go... I think that they are actually fine. The less penetration you have normally, the stronger this effect becomes. I mean it basically ignores 1/5 of the resistance an enemy has, which is particulary useful in PvP where most people use armor buffs. Maybe bump up the value for the Maul/2 Maces to 25%?

RoyJade

They've changed some little things with the Morrowind patch (cleave damage, heavy weapon aoe side effect…) but I think that all classes still need a new class dot. The survival problem is still heavily here, but I'm afraid that the only way to counter these really powerful shields is to nerf them (mostly by anti-shield mechanisms on raid), or to give stamina a new tool who would probably be broken. Or allow roll dodge to counter these burst phases ? (but dots would still hurt)


Maces are indeed useful in pvp against armor stacking enemies, if you have absolutely no penetration bonus. And even here, if the enemy has less than 25k armor, sharpened is better and axes/swords will give more power than maces.
But still, you have an interesting point : the more defense the enemy has, the more power you get is something cool, and we may have a way to change a little detail and give maces this sort of power and a great utility : let the 20% defense decrease be applied before penetration bonus, and done !

Ep1kMalware

RoyJade wrote: »

They've changed some little things with the Morrowind patch (cleave damage, heavy weapon aoe side effect…) but I think that all classes still need a new class dot. The survival problem is still heavily here, but I'm afraid that the only way to counter these really powerful shields is to nerf them (mostly by anti-shield mechanisms on raid), or to give stamina a new tool who would probably be broken. Or allow roll dodge to counter these burst phases ? (but dots would still hurt)


Maces are indeed useful in pvp against armor stacking enemies, if you have absolutely no penetration bonus. And even here, if the enemy has less than 25k armor, sharpened is better and axes/swords will give more power than maces.
But still, you have an interesting point : the more defense the enemy has, the more power you get is something cool, and we may have a way to change a little detail and give maces this sort of power and a great utility : let the 20% defense decrease be applied before penetration bonus, and done !

Nah. Shields are good where they're at. Stam survivability comes from self heals (ever notice that there seems to be quite a few?), and avoiding/dodging damage. Magica on the other hand, they get shields. Honestly, I like this system, it's a good system.

The issue I have is that stam and magica do similar amounts of damage. Stam actually got ahead of sorc on ST dps this patch, and that is cool beans. However the vast majority of players on eso suck more than they should ever be allowed to suck, because instead of pulling 5k dps they can only pull 5k dps for a limited time. The obvious way to combat the system be un nerf sustain so stam can keep hammering away at those shields.

-OR-

Allow crit damage to be applied to shields. Zos you apes, stop nerfing and think with your head. Crit dmg on shields, it's that simple.

RoyJade

Shields for magicka, dodge/cc break for stamina. Seem good for me.
Sadly, in pve most of the dangerous attack who need to be shielded are undodgeable.

The sustain change don't hit stam as much as I was afraid. Pulling a good stamina dps is still possible, and as I hoped bow and 2H dps is far better. It still lack from something, but ZOS is in the good path, or nearby.