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Why people still believe only in literal meaning of "winning" in reference to P2W?
Rinmaethodain
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Every time I see someone say "its not P2W because you can't kill anybody with it" I can't help to wonder why people still use this P2W definition from the stoneage of MMO gaming. Every person have different goal in game and different condition of "winning". Because of that, depending on what that people want to achieve and what they do in game, they will perceive things in paid shop on different level and and grade them differently whether they are P2W for them or not.
And just as I said before, P2W is not exclusive to "an item you can kill someone with", claiming something is absolutely not Pay 2 Win because you cant equip it is wrong on so many levels. Telling that "only if there would be gear 1000x better that what's in game would make it P2W" is not different than imposing your own in game goals on other players, ignoring their playstyle and what they want to achieve in game just as its wrong to tell other player that the way they play game is insignificant and bad (while claiming that something they see as P2W is not because majority of players don't care about it).
Because everyone considers "winning" as something else (again, the win does not need to be necessary killing other player or boss) you can't define a single state where "Game X became P2W". You can only discuss on what fronts game became P2W and then assigning weights to these parts and project it into estimate on what lvl game is P2W overall (still keeping in mind that on some fronts game would be not P2W at all, somewhere it would be a little bit P2W and in other least significant part it could absolutely P2W yet because of insignificance of that part it would not have enough weight for overall image of game).
Month after month, DLC after DLC, patch after patch the line is being drawn and crossed over and over again, more "meaningful" items are added into cash shop, items with more and more impact on gameplay. It started with pets, mounts, costumes. Crown store consumables, exp scrolls, mount upgrades. Adornments, hairstyles, appearance/race change tokens. Crown store exclusive motifs. Seeing that in PTS notes players will be able to obtain Research Scrolls to speed up their trait discovery, following example of Aetherial Ambrosia and 150% experience scrolls, its safe to assume Research Scrolls will also appear in Crown store.
With that in mind, each player needs to answer question on their own, where does the border lie, between "convenience" and "winning", when "saves your time" becomes "gives you edge over other player". If two players set themselves the same goal and start game at the same time, won't the one who uses cash shop to reach that goal get advantage over the 'legit' player, by reaching goal faster and claiming the reward which could be something as simple "being able to move on to other part of game"?
Edited by Rinmaethodain on May 8, 2017 1:45PM And just as I said before, P2W is not exclusive to "an item you can kill someone with", claiming something is absolutely not Pay 2 Win because you cant equip it is wrong on so many levels. Telling that "only if there would be gear 1000x better that what's in game would make it P2W" is not different than imposing your own in game goals on other players, ignoring their playstyle and what they want to achieve in game just as its wrong to tell other player that the way they play game is insignificant and bad (while claiming that something they see as P2W is not because majority of players don't care about it).
Because everyone considers "winning" as something else (again, the win does not need to be necessary killing other player or boss) you can't define a single state where "Game X became P2W". You can only discuss on what fronts game became P2W and then assigning weights to these parts and project it into estimate on what lvl game is P2W overall (still keeping in mind that on some fronts game would be not P2W at all, somewhere it would be a little bit P2W and in other least significant part it could absolutely P2W yet because of insignificance of that part it would not have enough weight for overall image of game).
Month after month, DLC after DLC, patch after patch the line is being drawn and crossed over and over again, more "meaningful" items are added into cash shop, items with more and more impact on gameplay. It started with pets, mounts, costumes. Crown store consumables, exp scrolls, mount upgrades. Adornments, hairstyles, appearance/race change tokens. Crown store exclusive motifs. Seeing that in PTS notes players will be able to obtain Research Scrolls to speed up their trait discovery, following example of Aetherial Ambrosia and 150% experience scrolls, its safe to assume Research Scrolls will also appear in Crown store.
With that in mind, each player needs to answer question on their own, where does the border lie, between "convenience" and "winning", when "saves your time" becomes "gives you edge over other player". If two players set themselves the same goal and start game at the same time, won't the one who uses cash shop to reach that goal get advantage over the 'legit' player, by reaching goal faster and claiming the reward which could be something as simple "being able to move on to other part of game"?
5
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Smmokkee✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »Every time I see someone say "its not P2W because you can't kill anybody with it" I can't help to wonder why people still use this P2W definition from the stoneage of MMO gaming. Every person have different goal in game and different condition of "winning". Because of that, depending on what that people want to achieve and what they do in game, they will perceive things in paid shop on different level and and grade them differently whether they are P2W for them or not.
And just as I said before, P2W is not exclusive to "an item you can kill someone with", claiming something is absolutely not Pay 2 Win because you cant equip it is wrong on so many levels. Telling that "only if there would be gear 1000x better that what's in game would make it P2W" is not different than imposing your own in game goals on other players, ignoring their playstyle and what they want to achieve in game just as its wrong to tell other player that the way they play game is insignificant and bad (while claiming that something they see as P2W is not because majority of players don't care about it).
Because everyone considers "winning" as something else (again, the win does not need to be necessary killing other player or boss) you can't define a single state where "Game X became P2W". You can only discuss on what fronts game became P2W and then assigning weights to these parts and project it into estimate on what lvl game is P2W overall (still keeping in mind that on some fronts game would be not P2W at all, somewhere it would be a little bit P2W and in other least significant part it could absolutely P2W yet because of insignificance of that part it would not have enough weight for overall image of game).
Month after month, DLC after DLC, patch after patch the line is being drawn and crossed over and over again, more "meaningful" items are added into cash shop, items with more and more impact on gameplay. It started with pets, mounts, costumes. Crown store consumables, exp scrolls, mount upgrades. Adornments, hairstyles, appearance/race change tokens. Crown store exclusive motifs. Seeing that in PTS notes players will be able to obtain Research Scrolls to speed up their trait discovery, following example of Aetherial Ambrosia and 150% experience scrolls, its safe to assume Research Scrolls will also appear in Crown store.
With that in mind, each player needs to answer question on their own, where does the border lie, between "convenience" and "winning", when "saves your time" becomes "gives you edge over other player". If two players set themselves the same goal and start game at the same time, won't the one who uses cash shop to reach that goal get advantage over the 'legit' player, by reaching goal faster and claiming the reward which could be something as simple "being able to move on to other part of game"?
ESO is far from P2W.
You guys should go play neverwinter and find out what p2w is.11 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I guess that crown crates can help people win at competitive roleplaying and fashion scrolls online.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)11 -
dotme✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sorry, but IMHO the examples given here isn't "Pay to Win", it's "Pay to Catch Up Faster" which isn't a bad thing when one of the goals is to continue to attract new players to the game.
A lot of this game is geared towards making the ramp to max a little easier for latecomers, and I feel that's necessary for a healthy population and a good revenue stream (Both of which are needed to keep the game economically viable)
I have no problem with new players being offered a speed boost to help them catch up a little faster if it helps keep populations up and money coming in for further improvements.PS4NA3 -
Rinmaethodain✭✭✭✭✭
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Why would exactly this discussion thread become locked? If you are talking about my previous thread, I requested its deletion to make space for this thread so constructive discussion can be continued in hereJadednatas wrote: »Inb4 lock.. waste of a threadEdited by Rinmaethodain on May 8, 2017 1:58PM0 -
Who cares if it is P2W?
They deserve to make money for the excellent product they put out.
They give you the OPTION of paying or not paying. They still allow you to play for free if you wish.
YOU are the one making the choice not to pay.0 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Is another thread about this necessary?
Okay, lets just put this out there: Pay-For-Convenience != Pay-To-Win.
In a P4C model, a player can purchase a weapon with cash, or the player can earn the exact same weapon through reasonable game time.
In a P2W model, a player can purchase a weapon more powerful than the other weapons with cash, and there is no other reasonable way to get that weapon.
It doesn't bloody matter however long it takes you. A P4C model speeds you through progression but ensures your cap never exceeds anyone else's who put in their time and effort to progress on their own; a P2W model makes you superior to everyone else regardless of game time. That's all it is. You're just trying to complicate this.
Everything else you mentioned is either P4C, or simply just cosmetic cash-grabs from the devs.Edited by HatchetHaro on May 8, 2017 2:03PMBest Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
17 Argonians
6x IR, 6x GH, 7x TTT, 4x GS, 4x DB, 1x PB, 3x SBS, 1x Unchained1 -
pattyLtd✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »
Why would exactly this discussion thread become locked? If you are talking about my previous thread, I requested its deletion to make space for this thread so constructive discussion can be continued in hereJadednatas wrote: »Inb4 lock.. waste of a thread
Because you will change the thread title to "Please delete" ?English is not my native language, no grammar police please, tyvm1 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Pay to win is not the same as pay gated content. Stop trying to twist the phrase to suit flawed arguments.2 -
RT_Frank✭✭✭Unless your definition of winning is "having a killer clothing line" or "having the best collection of mounts", I doubt almost everybody considers ESO a P2W game. In addition, your argument about winning is very flawed because you are taking the "everything is subjective approach", which almost never works.
For example, if ZOS took out the crown store, DLCs, and ESO Plus I can still argue that ESO is P2W. Why? Because I can say that I'm winning by just being able to play ESO. Since everybody had to pay for ESO, ESO by default is P2W. See how dumb that argument is?
If you're still confused on what a P2W game is, look at Neverwinter or almost any other free to play game. They are free to play because they make money by people to actually pay to win.Edited by RT_Frank on May 8, 2017 2:04PM0 -
Jadednatas✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »
Why would exactly this discussion thread become locked? If you are talking about my previous thread, I requested its deletion to make space for this thread so constructive discussion can be continued in hereJadednatas wrote: »Inb4 lock.. waste of a thread
Because there are already numerous posts on this topic.. that are all full of lame reasons an tears.. an even coming from a different angle, which you really don't.... doesn't mean open a new thread.
Continue the pointless convo in the old thread.. the close post from zos will say something similar i'd bet.
Also for the record, I disagree with your logic. (No need to say anymore cause you clearly wanna believe it's pay to win an seem to like to complain from your other posts) have a great day!0 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭That's it. I'm now just going to blame society. Despite what our Sith Lord President says, and millions of school children being raised to feel they are super special when they are not, you cannot just make up your own definitions of things. Facts, also, are not opinions. They are facts.
Pay to win LITERALLY means pay - to - win. If you have a problem with literal definitions take it up with Webster's and Google.3 -
Tyrobag✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »
Why would exactly this discussion thread become locked? If you are talking about my previous thread, I requested its deletion to make space for this thread so constructive discussion can be continued in hereJadednatas wrote: »Inb4 lock.. waste of a thread
Dargus, you straight up censored your last thread because it wasn't going the way you wanted. Then you made a new thread with a title made to try and color peoples' opinions even more. That is not "constructive", that is not willing to accept that people don't all agree with your opinions.1 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
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Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak4 -
rudimentxb14_ESO✭✭✭I watched DCUO go down this exact path over a year ago, with threads exactly like this one. Members of the community would often go to those threads and bad mouth it saying stuff like oh, another p2w thread? Or it's not p2w....
im gonna give you some advice now, fight it, fight it, fight it with everything you have, make a new thread on it everyday, because if you don't this game will go the way of DCUo and be completely pay to win.
Just wait till they start putting GEAR INSIDE THE CROWN CRATES.
Then those people who said its not pay to win will be up in arms about this and wonder what the hell happened. If you don't argue the business model, you will indeed get a pay to win game and it WILL ruin this game.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭timidobserver wrote: »I guess that crown crates can help people win at competitive roleplaying and fashion scrolls online.
Take an awesome for Fashion Scrolls.0 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭rudimentxb14_ESO wrote: »I watched DCUO go down this exact path over a year ago, with threads exactly like this one. Members of the community would often go to those threads and bad mouth it saying stuff like oh, another p2w thread? Or it's not p2w....
im gonna give you some advice now, fight it, fight it, fight it with everything you have, make a new thread on it everyday, because if you don't this game will go the way of DCUo and be completely pay to win.
Just wait till they start putting GEAR INSIDE THE CROWN CRATES.
Then those people who said its not pay to win will be up in arms about this and wonder what the hell happened. If you don't argue the business model, you will indeed get a pay to win game and it WILL ruin this game.
When and if it really does become pay to win then I'll complain just as much as the next guy, but until then it's just QQ.
Edit: If..
Edited by Kodrac on May 8, 2017 2:17PM3 -
Voxicity✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Someone hasn't played eastern MMO's... if you think ESO is p2w then you seriously have no idea what you're talking about.2 -
LordSkyKnight✭✭✭✭✭The main issue to me is the vast majority of the gamers today have been mentally conditioned to accept micro transactions. That's why you see the behavior in the vast majority of games today. They consider being able to buy items to speed your leveling or other process along totally acceptable.
To me pay to win equates to paying additional money to bypass standard game mechanics. For example: being able to purchase experience potions to bypass the standard leveling rate is paying to win.Edited by LordSkyKnight on May 8, 2017 2:22PM"And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all."
- Matt Firor0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »Every time I see someone say "its not P2W because you can't kill anybody with it" I can't help to wonder why people still use this P2W definition from the stoneage of MMO gaming. Every person have different goal in game and different condition of "winning". Because of that, depending on what that people want to achieve and what they do in game, they will perceive things in paid shop on different level and and grade them differently whether they are P2W for them or not.
Because if you open it up that far, literally everything is P2W? (I mean, for an RP'er, that Absolutely Perfect Costume/Personality/Emote That Completes His RP™, is "winning", right?)
At which point the entire concept/discussion becomes meaningless.0 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭LordSkyKnight wrote: »To me pay to win equates to paying additional money to bypass standard game mechanics. For example: being able to purchase experience potions to bypass the standard leveling rate is paying to win.
But are those experience potions also available in game? If yes then is it still pay to win when you can completely bypass it?1 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W.
I'm not coming down on it one way or the other, just curious - do you feel that Regular MMO Expansions also fit these definitions? After all, if a WoW player didn't buy Wrath of the Lich King when it came out, he was 10 levels lower than other players, and didn't have access to several zones/dungeons/raids worth of gear (there was BoE gear that could be traded, but since it required the higher level cap to even equip.....)1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Why?
Because not everyone subscribes to the postmodernist notion that a word's etymology can be forcibly changed to suit one's narrative.3 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LordSkyKnight wrote: »The main issue to me is the vast majority of the gamers today have been mentally conditioned to accept micro transactions.
That's only come about as a natural and inevitable consequence of them mentally conditioning themselves not to accept subscriptions. Ideally, of course, they'd like "Free to Play" to mean just that.1 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Except ... and here is the big thing you're leaving out ... a BIS staff wins you nothing in PVP. I don't have one, and I "win" plenty.
A maelstrom staff, in the perfect trait, can give you a small spreadsheet advantage but A) it's not given to you
requires potentially hundreds of hours of work to get and C) may as well be a broom in PVP if you're up against a seasoned PVPer.
And yes, there is a wrong answer. The one you are trying to shoehorn in. Your mount example is pay to tie. If they were giving a 70 speed mount via money when all you can get is 60 without cash, then you would be correct. You can't so you're not.Edited by THEDKEXPERIENCE on May 8, 2017 2:34PM2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭You know, it just occurred to me - "P2W" has been a central feature of videogaming since nearly the very beginning.
After all, you could keep shoving quarters into that arcade game until you "won" it. And the game companies designed the game difficulty to kill off average players quickly.
So yeah. Tradition!
1