Does it Make Sense? Dark Deal and Siphoning Attacks

Smmokkee

Alongside the Morrowind changes, does it make sense for ZoS to continue nerfing the sustain of arguably one of the weakest classes in the game while leaving sustain options functional for one of the strongest?

Kodrac

No

No. If they're intent is to homogenize the classes Siphoning Attacks should work exactly like Dark Deal. But for "reasons" it doesn't.

Skinzz

No

Rip to stamplars stealing other stamplars repentance.

WalksonGraves

No

ZOS clearly wants all sorc meta.

Megabear

Yes

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

Smmokkee

No

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

Sabbathius

It's relative. For someone who only plays a Sorc as their main, it might make a lot of sense.


It's a very common thing in MMOs. Like in EVE Online, wormhole dwellers begged the devs to fix the bookmark system. For those who don't play EVE, bookmarking locations was essential. Thing is, according to official stats at the time, only about 8% of the player base lived in wormholes. So even though all players used bookmarks, only 8% really needed them as an absolute, mission-critical feature. Years went by, nothing was done. Until one of lead devs (one of the people with the power to push change through) got bored and went to play in wormholes. And immediately went "***?!" when he tried to use the bookmarks. And after that, the change came through pretty quickly.


Same principle here. If devs happen to main Sorc, we'll see more of the same.


Although, I feel there's no small amount of general incompetence also. Remember in Homestead PTS a few months back? When they thought it was a good idea to give DKs a heal for 33% of missing magicka? Pretty dumb, right? Just sitting down and thinking about it for one full minute would convince pretty much anyone it's a stupid idea. And we did manage to make them see the light and change it in time. But the point is, a competent developer wouldn't be making such bonehead changes in the first place. Same thing here, with Siphoning Strikes. Yes, they want sustain gone, I get it. But the original nerf was basically a net loss as often as not, as shown in many, many videos. Why couldn't the devs themselves realize this? Why did they need us to draw it for them, in crayon, like usual? This is what bugs me the most. These changes were dumb. Literally one minute of critical thinking should have been enough to dismiss them. Yet, someone came up with them, someone approved them, they were implemented into the game and put up on PTS. And during all this time nobody stopped these people.

cmetzger93

xskinzcity wrote: »

Rip to stamplars stealing other stamplars repentance.

What stamplars? Lol

starkerealm

Smmokkee wrote: »

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

They said, "Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the 'sustain'."

Smmokkee

No

I don't know how anyone can vote yes.. I really don't.

If it makes sense to you, you don't make sense to me.

F7sus4

No

5 clueless pugs so far.

Voxicity

Yes

voted wrong. pls no hate

Chilly-McFreeze

Is this one of these "you nerfed mine, now nerf others" threads or should there be an actual discussion? Also, what poll outcome do you expect? I'd rather go for the discussion:

No, it is not good that they nerf the sustain of NB, but it still wouldn't be good if they nerf dark deal/Exchange as well. It's an unique skill that makes stam sorcs good at sustaining. I guess this is what this is about, stam sorcs, right? Using the morph to gain magicka would be suicidal for mag sorcs in open pvp for the break free and stuff.

There is no direct nerf to the ability as of right now. Maybe it will come later, who knows? But consider that changes to black rose 5pc bonus (nerfed some time ago) and the huge nerf to consitution (42% !) + the increased stam costs (not class depending, I know) will be an indirect nerf.
sSorcs need to use d/d more often bc of risen stam costs. But they can't regen magicka quite as good as before due to HA nerfs and therefore can't use d/d as frequent as before. Mind they usually have a small mag pool and utilize it for surge, streak and d/d.

Is d/d still better than most other sustain moves? Probably yes. Can it be toned down? Yes. Few suggestions below.
But first, ask yourself if it's generally idiotic that one class has something unique that makes them best at something?

So, what could be done to tone down dark deal without breaking it?

a) make it cost resources even if interrupted
b) make it a regen over time + HoT
c) make it a regen over time + "burst heal"

a) I don't know if other abilites with cast time (e.g. dark flare) drain resources if interrupted. If so, this would be my go-to solution. If not, it would be the second punishing class skill for sorcs besides streak.
b) will Sorcs be left in lack of a "burst heal" (mind the cast time)? Surge is good but it's not really a realiable on demand heal when retreating in PvP. Also, should it then be an instan cast if b) or c) would happen?

To finish this, I repeat myself in saying that the sustain skill nerfs are over the top in general and I'm not defending that they nerfed the other classes.

Smmokkee

No

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

If thats the case then why didn't they nerf DD as well. That *** is literally the epitome of infinite sustain. Instead they gutted a class that was already the weakest in the game while leaving the strongest sustain skill in the game untouched.

If that makes sense to you.. then holy ***.

Rohamad_Ali

No

When you play Sorc and use dark deal then switch over to night blade siphoning attacks , there is just no comparison . Sorc has way more utility for resource control .

Smmokkee

No

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Is this one of these "you nerfed mine, now nerf others" threads or should there be an actual discussion? Also, what poll outcome do you expect? I'd rather go for the discussion:

No, it is not good that they nerf the sustain of NB, but it still wouldn't be good if they nerf dark deal/Exchange as well. It's an unique skill that makes stam sorcs good at sustaining. I guess this is what this is about, stam sorcs, right? Using the morph to gain magicka would be suicidal for mag sorcs in open pvp for the break free and stuff.

There is no direct nerf to the ability as of right now. Maybe it will come later, who knows? But consider that changes to black rose 5pc bonus (nerfed some time ago) and the huge nerf to consitution (42% !) + the increased stam costs (not class depending, I know) will be an indirect nerf.
sSorcs need to use d/d more often bc of risen stam costs. But they can't regen magicka quite as good as before due to HA nerfs and therefore can't use d/d as frequent as before. Mind they usually have a small mag pool and utilize it for surge, streak and d/d.

Is d/d still better than most other sustain moves? Probably yes. Can it be toned down? Yes. Few suggestions below.
But first, ask yourself if it's generally idiotic that one class has something unique that makes them best at something?

So, what could be done to tone down dark deal without breaking it?

a) make it cost resources even if interrupted
b) make it a regen over time + HoT
c) make it a regen over time + "burst heal"

a) I don't know if other abilites with cast time (e.g. dark flare) drain resources if interrupted. If so, this would be my go-to solution. If not, it would be the second punishing class skill for sorcs besides streak.
b) will Sorcs be left in lack of a "burst heal" (mind the cast time)? Surge is good but it's not really a realiable on demand heal when retreating in PvP. Also, should it then be an instan cast if b) or c) would happen?

To finish this, I repeat myself in saying that the sustain skill nerfs are over the top in general and I'm not defending that they nerfed the other classes.

This isn't about stam sorcs. This is about nightblades, bud.

I just wanted to exemplify the horrible decision making of the ZoS team and, maybe get some sort of explanation from them on why they felt the need to gut the sustain tool of a already hurting nb class while leaving a sustain tool like DD to arguably one of the strongest classes in the game. As it stands right now DD is already better then SA..

Ask yourself this, what do nb's have that make them the best at anything? Cloak? Its been broken. Grim Focus? Please. Even they said it should be changed. NB's have been eating nerfs every patch and they are nowhere near the top of the food chain and, with sustain already be nerfed across the board why go after one of the weakest classes sustain option when things like DD exist in the game. It's just completely irrational.

#StopShittingOnNBs

starkerealm

I'll be honest, siphoning strikes should probably be rethought from the ground up. Probably into a "when slotted" recovery buff, with a vampiric heal while active.

SnubbS

One word—Equilibrium.

Soleya

No

starkerealm wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

They said, "Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the 'sustain'."

A stam sorc typically would run crit surge and dark deal as the only magicka skills. Crit surge lasts 33 seconds, between crit surge casts you can cast dark deal about 7 times. That's over 56k health and 35k stamina in 30 second time frame. Could also add in that with crit surge up, stam sorc will heal another 120k+ from that.

On PTS, in 30 seconds of using Leeching Strikes you get about 30k health and 4k stamina back. Yet somehow you think 4k stamina returned over 30 seconds is anywhere near infinite sustain?

On Live, you'd be lucky to get 30k stam back in 30 seconds with siphoning attacks.

Btw, I don't think Dark Deal needs a nerf, I think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes needs a major buff to be anywhere near useful.

F7sus4

No

F7sus4 wrote: »

5 clueless pugs so far.

8*

max_only

No

SnubbS wrote: »

One word—Equilibrium.

Get outta here with that mess.

Relevant demonstration on how important Siphoning Attacks is starts at 34 minutes.

https://youtu.be/fK5D32QGsy0

Leave Siphoning Attacks Alone.

I don't care that sorcs are god mode, I don't care that templars and dks are better at every role. I don't care about ganking. Just stop shitting on nightblades omg.

Biro123

Soleya wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

They said, "Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the 'sustain'."

A stam sorc typically would run crit surge and dark deal as the only magicka skills. Crit surge lasts 33 seconds, between crit surge casts you can cast dark deal about 7 times. That's over 56k health and 35k stamina in 30 second time frame. Could also add in that with crit surge up, stam sorc will heal another 120k+ from that.

On PTS, in 30 seconds of using Leeching Strikes you get about 30k health and 4k stamina back. Yet somehow you think 4k stamina returned over 30 seconds is anywhere near infinite sustain?

On Live, you'd be lucky to get 30k stam back in 30 seconds with siphoning attacks.

Btw, I don't think Dark Deal needs a nerf, I think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes needs a major buff to be anywhere near useful.

How? Just wondering what your math is on that.. Or is it the usual over-exaggeration we see often see on these forums?

There is also streak.

Domander

A 1 second channel that's interruptable vs an instant buff. You can't really compare them. Dark deal in pve you are most often better off doing a heavy attack, and in pvp it has great counterplay.

Siphoning strikes needs to be better though, as it is right now I will probably not slot it.

Soleya

No

Biro123 wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

They said, "Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the 'sustain'."

A stam sorc typically would run crit surge and dark deal as the only magicka skills. Crit surge lasts 33 seconds, between crit surge casts you can cast dark deal about 7 times. That's over 56k health and 35k stamina in 30 second time frame. Could also add in that with crit surge up, stam sorc will heal another 120k+ from that.

On PTS, in 30 seconds of using Leeching Strikes you get about 30k health and 4k stamina back. Yet somehow you think 4k stamina returned over 30 seconds is anywhere near infinite sustain?

On Live, you'd be lucky to get 30k stam back in 30 seconds with siphoning attacks.

Btw, I don't think Dark Deal needs a nerf, I think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes needs a major buff to be anywhere near useful.

How? Just wondering what your math is on that.. Or is it the usual over-exaggeration we see often see on these forums?

There is also streak.

I was thinking from a PVE perspective, so I don't use streak.

Cast Crit Surge, and over 33 seconds cast dark deal as often as possible, but leave enough mag to cast crit surge again. That's 7 casts.

Each cast gives 8k+ health and 4k+ stam. Multiply the tooltip numbers by 7 and you have the math. Not an exaggeration.

As for the Crit Surge heal, I have FTC and look at the healing from it, it averaged for me 4500 healing per second. 4500x30 = 135k...so I under estimated the heal. Crit Surge heal can crit, siphoning attacks doesn't crit heal or crit resource gain.

As for leeching Strikes, I used FTC to see how many times it procs in 30 seconds...for me it was between 18 and 22...cannot get it to proc once very second no matter what I do. Looked at the tooltip and multiplied by number of procs then subtracted the cost of casting it (costs stam to cast) and posted it here. I did that test on 3.0.1, haven't tried it on the latest patch because I no longer have my characters so it's not as easy to do a live/pts compare.

Galwylin

No

I'm against either nerf. I think the OP was trying to show if this class ability is getting nerf for this reason then why is this class ability unchanged. That's not saying you nerf this so nerf that. I have to assume it is accidental that any ability costs more than it returns. That just doesn't make any type of sense. Why would I cast something to regain my resources if it costs more than it returns? I'm casting it because I'm low. That just makes the situation worse. It has to be a joke. It has to be.

Tasear

Yes

http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Equilibrium

Maybe you instead be trying to get a stamina version this?

Biro123

Soleya wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

They said, "Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the 'sustain'."

A stam sorc typically would run crit surge and dark deal as the only magicka skills. Crit surge lasts 33 seconds, between crit surge casts you can cast dark deal about 7 times. That's over 56k health and 35k stamina in 30 second time frame. Could also add in that with crit surge up, stam sorc will heal another 120k+ from that.

On PTS, in 30 seconds of using Leeching Strikes you get about 30k health and 4k stamina back. Yet somehow you think 4k stamina returned over 30 seconds is anywhere near infinite sustain?

On Live, you'd be lucky to get 30k stam back in 30 seconds with siphoning attacks.

Btw, I don't think Dark Deal needs a nerf, I think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes needs a major buff to be anywhere near useful.

How? Just wondering what your math is on that.. Or is it the usual over-exaggeration we see often see on these forums?

There is also streak.

I was thinking from a PVE perspective, so I don't use streak.

Cast Crit Surge, and over 33 seconds cast dark deal as often as possible, but leave enough mag to cast crit surge again. That's 7 casts.

Each cast gives 8k+ health and 4k+ stam. Multiply the tooltip numbers by 7 and you have the math. Not an exaggeration.

As for the Crit Surge heal, I have FTC and look at the healing from it, it averaged for me 4500 healing per second. 4500x30 = 135k...so I under estimated the heal. Crit Surge heal can crit, siphoning attacks doesn't crit heal or crit resource gain.

As for leeching Strikes, I used FTC to see how many times it procs in 30 seconds...for me it was between 18 and 22...cannot get it to proc once very second no matter what I do. Looked at the tooltip and multiplied by number of procs then subtracted the cost of casting it (costs stam to cast) and posted it here. I did that test on 3.0.1, haven't tried it on the latest patch because I no longer have my characters so it's not as easy to do a live/pts compare.

I just tried and did 6 casts in that time in combat - that was without tri-stat food (Ran out).

BUT Constitution procced 7 times for 1116 mag each time giving a total of 7182 mag which fuelled 2 of those dark deals. The morrowind constitution nerf will mean only one will be fuelled by it next patch.

So that leaves 5. However, I just spammed it - not leaving enough mag to recast crit-surge - which costs MORE than a dark deal.. so lets knock another one off for that.

So for me, that's 4 casts - and you're empty just after doing that 2nd crit surge. Now AFTER that, I could only do 4 casts by the time crit-surge ran out.. Dropping 2 again (const and the next crit-surge cast) - means that once you've blown your mag on burst recov/streak etc.. if we take a current heavy armour builds to the pts, we are only sustaining 2-3 dark deal casts every 33 seconds.

Starting to sound a bit more balanced...

Now lets look at return once you're in that 2nd phase and compare..

Each cast returned 4878 stam.
A heavy attack taking the same time to do restores 2140 stam (but does dmg too).

So in that 33 seconds, if a sorc dark deals twice he gets 9600 stam.
If a stamblade with leeching and does 2 heavy attacks (as opposed to 2 dark deals) - he gets 2140x2 + 4k for leeching (according to the poster a few posts back = 8280 stam

Its not really that far off once you get past the burst dark-deal part. Stamblade also gets straight off better %recov passives too.

I mean don't get me wrong, d/d is strong because of that burst aspect (which grows when you add a tripot).. but in terms of sustained... It may not be too far out. You won't get them all exactly the same as all classes are supposed to work differently - but as long as the ballpark is there it should be ok..

Tasear

Yes

Biro123 wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Soleya wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

They said, "Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the 'sustain'."

A stam sorc typically would run crit surge and dark deal as the only magicka skills. Crit surge lasts 33 seconds, between crit surge casts you can cast dark deal about 7 times. That's over 56k health and 35k stamina in 30 second time frame. Could also add in that with crit surge up, stam sorc will heal another 120k+ from that.

On PTS, in 30 seconds of using Leeching Strikes you get about 30k health and 4k stamina back. Yet somehow you think 4k stamina returned over 30 seconds is anywhere near infinite sustain?

On Live, you'd be lucky to get 30k stam back in 30 seconds with siphoning attacks.

Btw, I don't think Dark Deal needs a nerf, I think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes needs a major buff to be anywhere near useful.

How? Just wondering what your math is on that.. Or is it the usual over-exaggeration we see often see on these forums?

There is also streak.

I was thinking from a PVE perspective, so I don't use streak.

Cast Crit Surge, and over 33 seconds cast dark deal as often as possible, but leave enough mag to cast crit surge again. That's 7 casts.

Each cast gives 8k+ health and 4k+ stam. Multiply the tooltip numbers by 7 and you have the math. Not an exaggeration.

As for the Crit Surge heal, I have FTC and look at the healing from it, it averaged for me 4500 healing per second. 4500x30 = 135k...so I under estimated the heal. Crit Surge heal can crit, siphoning attacks doesn't crit heal or crit resource gain.

As for leeching Strikes, I used FTC to see how many times it procs in 30 seconds...for me it was between 18 and 22...cannot get it to proc once very second no matter what I do. Looked at the tooltip and multiplied by number of procs then subtracted the cost of casting it (costs stam to cast) and posted it here. I did that test on 3.0.1, haven't tried it on the latest patch because I no longer have my characters so it's not as easy to do a live/pts compare.

I just tried and did 6 casts in that time in combat - that was without tri-stat food (Ran out).

BUT Constitution procced 7 times for 1116 mag each time giving a total of 7182 mag which fuelled 2 of those dark deals. The morrowind constitution nerf will mean only will be fuelled by it next patch.

So that leaves 5. However, I just spammed it - not leaving enough mag to recast crit-surge - which costs MORE than a dark deal.. so lets knock another one off for that.

So for me, that's 4 casts - and you're empty just after doing that 2nd crit surge. Now AFTER that, I could only do 4 casts by the time crit-surge ran out.. Dropping 2 again (const and the next crit-surge cast) - means that once you've blown your mag on burst recov/streak etc.. if we take a current heavy armour builds to the pts, we are only sustaining 2-3 dark deal casts every 33 seconds.

Starting to sound a bit more balanced...

Now lets look at return once you're in that 2nd phase and compare..

Each cast returned 4878 stam.
A heavy attack taking the same time to do restores 2140 stam (but does dmg too).

So in that 33 seconds, if a sorc dark deals twice he gets 9600 stam.
If a stamblade with leeching and does 2 heavy attacks (as opposed to 2 dark deals) - he gets 2140x2 + 4k for leeching (according to the poster a few posts back = 8280 stam

Its not really that far off once you get past the burst dark-deal part. Stamblade also gets straight off better %recov passives too.

I mean don't get me wrong, d/d is strong because of that burst aspect (which grows when you add a tripot).. but in terms of sustained... It may not be too far out. You won't get them all exactly the same as all classes are supposed to work differently - but as long as the ballpark is there it should be ok..

So what you are saying is these witch hunts for sorrecer class are in the wrong.

STEVIL

Yes

A key difference is siphon is a long duration gain which means losing one cast every 1ts or so possibly out of combat, while dd\dc are in the moment 1s channels.

In other words you can get siphon sustain with no dps loss but not so for dc/dd and putting damage in opposition to sustain is a key goal.

max_only

No

All he is saying is: the Devs keep claiming that they are making changes to ALL sustain in the game. Funnily enough, this one sustain skill "dark deal" has remained untouched.

I don't care if opercers get dark deal, just leave Siphoning Attacks alone.

starkerealm

Soleya wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

Megabear wrote: »

Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the "sustain".

What the *** did you just say?

Think that one over.

They said, "Makes sense to me because I don't think infinite sustain should exist in the first place. They can still balance the classes later on, but definite kick the 'sustain'."

A stam sorc typically would run crit surge and dark deal as the only magicka skills. Crit surge lasts 33 seconds, between crit surge casts you can cast dark deal about 7 times. That's over 56k health and 35k stamina in 30 second time frame. Could also add in that with crit surge up, stam sorc will heal another 120k+ from that.

On PTS, in 30 seconds of using Leeching Strikes you get about 30k health and 4k stamina back. Yet somehow you think 4k stamina returned over 30 seconds is anywhere near infinite sustain?

On Live, you'd be lucky to get 30k stam back in 30 seconds with siphoning attacks.

Btw, I don't think Dark Deal needs a nerf, I think Siphoning Attacks/Leeching Strikes needs a major buff to be anywhere near useful.

Don't look at me. You asked me what they said; not to make sense of that mess.