My personal issue with Morrowind
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Nelson_Rebel✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's an issue, but not one we can fix
ZOS exploited the wording for ESO plus, They will be doing it again. And in different ways now that they know they will still profit from it
Best we can do is enjoy the game and content before it turns to crap and p2w.
And it will turn to this. It's only a matter of time with zenimax. But at least the game is beautiful10 -
Costismaros✭✭✭Nelson_Rebel wrote: »It's an issue, but not one we can fix
ZOS exploited the wording for ESO plus, They will be doing it again. And in different ways now that they know they will still profit from it
Best we can do is enjoy the game and content before it turns to crap and p2w.
And it will turn to this. It's only a matter of time with zenimax. But at least the game is beautiful
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SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
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Actually, it's the opposite. All expansions are DLC, but not all DLC are expansions. The reason being that the word "expansion" was always used to indicate additions with more content, whereas "DLC" can be used to describe a single piece of horse armor as well as content the size of Wrothgar.All DLC's are expansions, not all expansions are DLC's.
Also, the definition of "DLC" has changed over the years. It used to be that expansions were called expansions, and the word "DLC" described much smaller bits of content (the famous horse armor from Oblivion, etc). Now we think of DLC as being any extra content, no matter what the size is, but that wasn't always the case.
Edited by SydneyGrey on April 30, 2017 9:59PM1 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Not making excuses for ZOS here, but ...
Charging for Morrowind allows them to put player housing on it, and allows them to create the new class "warden." If they didn't charge for it, then people would get it free with their subscriptions, then roll a warden character and buy a Morrowind house. Then if they let their sub lapse accidentally (or because they forgot what was at stake), suddenly their warden and their house that they paid for would both be GONE. I can hear the screaming already.
Now, they could have created the warden and had that for sale in the Crown Store separately, which is what I think they SHOULD have done. But we still wouldn't have had the additional houses unless Morrowind itself was paid-only content.0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭SydneyGrey wrote: »Actually, it's the opposite. All expansions are DLC, but not all DLC are expansions. The reason being that the word "expansion" was always used to indicate additions with more content, whereas "DLC" can be used to describe a single piece of horse armor as well as content the size of Wrothgar.
Also, the definition of "DLC" has changed over the years. It used to be that expansions were called expansions, and the word "DLC" described much smaller bits of content (the famous horse armor from Oblivion, etc). Now we think of DLC as being any extra content, no matter what the size is, but that wasn't always the case.
Sorry but no. DLC = Downloadable content. Even if it's horse armor.. it's an expansion of previously unavailable content. So all DLC's are in fact expansions. It's is expanding what is available for you to do in game. The only way to get said content is through a Download from the official site.
Expansions can be distributed as a DLC... but more times than not they have physical copies which makes them not really a DLC. Since the content can be either downloaded directly, or you can go down to your favorite game store and pick it up.
Prime examples of this is Morrowind. Tribunal and Bloodmoon where physical expansions to the game that you had to buy separately or through the Game of the Year Edition. The Seige of Fort Firemoth was also an expansion in that it added content to the game, but you could not pick up a physical copy of this. It was only through downloading from Bethesda's official site. Even now you can't find physical copies of it. You have to find it and download it from some where. This makes it a DLC.#SavePlayer10 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭
I play EVE online since 2008 - i get all expansions with the subscription, there are no extra costs - and I can even pay for the subscription with ingame currency (buying game time from others with it) - it does not have to be like ZOS and others are handling it - it can be great value for a very reasonable price as well - EVE online is the best example for that.
Eve Online is also a very niche game. where as ESO is mainstream, like WoW, SWTOR, EQ2, ect. So the player base of Eve I believe is smaller than ESO's. Which would impact the business model. So just because one game company does it doesn't mean it's the best business model for another game company that has more resources and more income.#SavePlayer11 -
Maikon✭✭✭✭I got a beta test invitation and do not even feel the urge to try it - I think it is massively overpriced and should be a DLC - I am not going to support this practice to go around ESO+ by calling it an upgrade - it is a DLC and I want it for free with ESO+, or I just let go on it and do not play it at all.
@Lysette
Massively overpriced? If so, you may need a career change, McDonalds hourly pay may not be able to support your expensive lifestyle.Edited by Maikon on May 1, 2017 2:03AM1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭SydneyGrey wrote: »Not making excuses for ZOS here, but ...
Charging for Morrowind allows them to put player housing on it, and allows them to create the new class "warden." If they didn't charge for it, then people would get it free with their subscriptions, then roll a warden character and buy a Morrowind house. Then if they let their sub lapse accidentally (or because they forgot what was at stake), suddenly their warden and their house that they paid for would both be GONE. I can hear the screaming already.
Now, they could have created the warden and had that for sale in the Crown Store separately, which is what I think they SHOULD have done. But we still wouldn't have had the additional houses unless Morrowind itself was paid-only content.
Does not have to be gone, it could be just inaccessible during the subscription is lapsing. This would be a bit like it is solved in EVE online, where you have an omega clone when you have an active subscription, which gives you full access to your skills sets, whereas when your subscription is lapsing, you fall back to alpha state, where those skills exceeding the alpha skill sets are temporarily suspended and you can just use alpha skills. It could be solved in ESO in a similar fashion.0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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@Lysette
Massively overpriced? If so, you may need a career change, McDonalds hourly pay may not be able to support your expensive lifestyle.
Well, you come to wrong conclusions here - things are overpriced, if their price is not reasonable - this has nothing to do with if I can afford it or not - I am spending around 200 euros every months on gaming, I could easily afford it, but I will not buy it, when I think, that they are ripping me off compared to offers from other gaming companies, which offer me a lot more content for a much lower price - so please be respectful, your comment is an insult actually.
Btw why do you think, ZOS invited me to the beta - because they have seen my spendings on this game and want it back - but I am refusing.Edited by Lysette on May 1, 2017 2:15AM2 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭
Does not have to be gone, it could be just inaccessible during the subscription is lapsing. This would be a bit like it is solved in EVE online, where you have an omega clone when you have an active subscription, which gives you full access to your skills sets, whereas when your subscription is lapsing, you fall back to alpha state, where those skills exceeding the alpha skill sets are temporarily suspended and you can just use alpha skills. It could be solved in ESO in a similar fashion.
Yeah... because that's a better idea.... I can see it now. instead of posts about why ESO+ don't get morrowind. It will be a absurdly higher amount of posts of "WTF ZOS!!! I HAVE to sub now to even play my Warden, or do BG's?! WHAT THE ACTUAL F***!!!!" if you thought ZOS gets accused of being greedy now.... just think how your suggestion would look.#SavePlayer10 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah... because that's a better idea.... I can see it now. instead of posts about why ESO+ don't get morrowind. It will be a absurdly higher amount of posts of "WTF ZOS!!! I HAVE to sub now to even play my Warden, or do BG's?! WHAT THE ACTUAL F***!!!!" if you thought ZOS gets accused of being greedy now.... just think how your suggestion would look.
The warden could be an upgrade just like the Imperial race is an upgrade - in the same manner - it would not have to be bound to Morrowind at all. ZOS is just putting it into the package, in order to get their new area sold and to not have to provide it to ESO+ members without additional payments - and this might be the same with other upcoming areas in the same manner - this is not a good direction and far from the original idea, that if you are a subscriber that you get all the areas of Tamriel with your subscription without extra payments.Edited by Lysette on May 1, 2017 2:24AM1 -
Korah_Eaglecry✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
Yeah. I am guessing that selling DLCs and giving away free base game updates was not rocking their world. I see ESO at a crossroads.
In one direction, they can finish the transition to F2P, expand the Crown Crates to include something more compelling than fancy mounts, and really dive into the world of paid content sold in the Crown Store. They have not even started to mine that resource.
In another direction, they can double down on B2P and sell expansions that make people purchase the game again, every few months.
As a player, I do not want to have to evaluate each Crate season, store Showcase, and limited time offer to see if the gear that they are offering needs to be purchased, or the buff they are offering might help me in the game. I do not want them to monetize around the store as much as they are now, they are doing too much in that respect already.
By selling us Chapters, I think they are sending a message that they want to be a B2P where we buy expansions and the Crown Store is not intrusive. I think that if Chapters do not perform to their liking, we will get that Crown Store. Possibly in addition to Chapters.
So, I welcome the Chapters. I want this first one was absolutely compelling. A no brainer to purchase. I want this Chapter to sell millions so that they don't have to go the other direction.
Yes, I have pre-ordered Morrowind. I agree with the direction. I see it as much cheaper than the alternative.
I can tell you by watching other games go F2P that if Chapters dont hit the spot for ZOS boardroom and investors that content will be reduced to a trickle. They dont have the man power to fully monetize Crown Crates and the Crown Store as well as continue to pump out Quarterly DLC, a Chapter and a Dungeon Pack every year. The focus will become milking the cow til the utters are dry and spitting powder. If they go the full on Asian F2P direction itll be all hands on deck for all sorts of sad and unfortunate additions to this game that will tear its heart and soul out.
Im already highly skeptical of this new plan for content release. A year after the last actual DLC released we're looking at a different ball game. And unless Chapters are going to be significantly smaller than Morrowind in the future (possibly the size of small DLCs like TG and DB) I doubt theyll stay this course either.Penniless Sellsword CompanyCaptain Paramount - Jorrhaq VhentKorith Eaglecry * Enrerion Aedihle * Laerinel Rhaev * Caius Berilius * Seylina Ithvala * H'Vak the GrimjawlTenarei Rhaev * Dazsh Ro Khar * Yynril Rothvani * Bathes-In-Coin * Anaelle Faerniil * Azjani Ma'LesAban Shahid Bakr * Kheshna gra-Gharbuk * Gallisten Bondurant * Etain Maquier * Atsu Kalame * Faulpia SeverinusWhat is better, to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort? - Paarthurnax0 -
Maikon✭✭✭✭
The warden could be an upgrade just like the Imperial race is an upgrade - in the same manner - it would not have to be bound to Morrowind at all. ZOS is just putting it into the package, in order to get their new area sold and to not have to provide it to ESO+ members without additional payments - and this might be the same with other upcoming areas in the same manner - this is not a good direction and far from the original idea, that if you are a subscriber that you get all the areas of Tamriel with your subscription without extra payments.
The warden isan't an upgrade, it's an addition. You can't compare a class, with multiple skill lines and animations, to a race, which is more or less just a visual with a couple passives.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Costismaros wrote: »I am sorry for writing here my personal issue. I want to know if i am the only one who has this problem.
I dont have problem with the changes on active skills, passives skills, classes and so on because this is quite common for zenimax online, and im sure im gonna adapt it again.
My problem is that morrowind looks like to me with major update or just anither Dlc. I don't understand why we have to buy this update. They should offer free the battlegrounds and they have to add the new map and the new class as a DLC.
As far as i remember on other games we had to buy expansions that had to offer 4-5 new dungeons 1-2 new raids ,10-15 new maps 1-2 new classes and a new story line and that was quite normal. I dont think that Morrowind is an expansion.
The expansion itself is supposed to be larger than any DLC before. They have chosen that Trials will now be part of expansions which alone is big and the zone is to have more questing than even Wrothgar did. The sheer size of the zone with the added value is their justification.
Games also change how they add dungeons and raids. I have never seen 10-15 new maps added to an MMO in one expansion. Any expansion that had that many maps added must have added extremely small maps with limited questing since expansions are often added annually.
I have seen major MMOs added trials and dungeons throughout the year, not necessarily in the expansion. It should also be rare a new class is added since that is pretty major. Hopefully Zos is not planning a new class per year. I know of one major MMO that has never added a class and has been around at least 2 years longer than ESO.
Regardless, it is what it is and I doubt it will be changed to a DLC.0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nerfs should not be done this,way .... this just feels really bad... right before a major release I never seen so much anger in teamspeak .... people are aurgueing ... this will hurt the game it actually already has...PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables1 -
Linaleah✭✭✭✭✭
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well, it might be large - but the price is like for a really huge landmass and content - I mean it cost like witcher 3, which was about 1.5 times the size of GTA 5 - what is morrowind compared to that?- tiny - it is massívely overpriced.
uh. witcher 3 was 60 at launch without any DLC's. if you are talking of morrowind being 60? that's the WHOLE game, not upgrade. upgrade is $40dirty worthless casual.
Lois McMaster Bujold "A Civil Campaign"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself. Guard your honor. Let your reputation fall where it will. And outlive the ***0 -
SydneyGrey✭✭✭✭✭
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LOL. You don't know what "expansion" means in the context of computer/video gaming. A single piece of horse armor (or whatever) is not an expansion. What the heck. The word "expansion" has NEVER been used that way in the entire history of computer gaming. You can't just invent your own definition. Originally you could only buy expansions on CD in brick-and-mortar stores, and the concept of DLC didn't exist yet. Then one year gaming companies realized they could sell additional content via direct downloads to your computer, and the concept of the DLC was born. Only these were never full expansions at first; it was always a smaller amount of content. So originally, an "expansion" was a name given to a larger amount of additional game content, and a "DLC" was a smaller bit of content that wasn't worth a full expansion....So all DLC's are in fact expansions.
Now people think of everything as being DLCs, because you can download entire expansions now. That wasn't always the case. However, never in the whole history of gaming has anyone EVER called a single item from a game an "expansion."
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Galwylin✭✭✭✭✭Costismaros wrote: »I am sorry for writing here my personal issue. I want to know if i am the only one who has this problem.
I dont have problem with the changes on active skills, passives skills, classes and so on because this is quite common for zenimax online, and im sure im gonna adapt it again.
My problem is that morrowind looks like to me with major update or just anither Dlc. I don't understand why we have to buy this update. They should offer free the battlegrounds and they have to add the new map and the new class as a DLC.
As far as i remember on other games we had to buy expansions that had to offer 4-5 new dungeons 1-2 new raids ,10-15 new maps 1-2 new classes and a new story line and that was quite normal. I dont think that Morrowind is an expansion.
I agree with your points. However, I think ZOS can't afford to offer "free" content to subscribers for some reason. Maybe the game is really expensive to keep active. Or the devs make too much. Who knows but I think we probably should get used to all of us paying for DLCs. They might have some small version of what we think of DLCs now in their place. But I doubt we'll ever see an Orsinium as a free DLC to subscribers again. If I understand things correctly, those will now be called Chapters.0 -
Mephisto939✭✭✭✭I have considered unsubbing for a few months out of principal and buying Morrowind, but as it stands now I am really not very excited for it. Not sure why.Why did the Dunmer cross the road?
Apparently to get stuck in an eternal load screen!0 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Mephisto939 wrote: »I have considered unsubbing for a few months out of principal and buying Morrowind, but as it stands now I am really not very excited for it. Not sure why.
Maybe by the same reason which put me off from ESO - the blantant greediness of ZOS - there is a point where one can just no longer be happy with the game due to that the direction of game development focuses on money drain crap more than on anything else. And some things, which might just not be like they say it is - say "balancing" - my guess is, that they deliberately imbalance the game from one side to the other, in order to sell change tokens to PvP players - and if that is true, ESO will never be balanced, but always stay imbalanced with changing FotMs in order to sell their change tokens.0 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
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But that is their problem how they manage that and deliver still at an acceptable price - there are MMOs out there with much larger and more complex content, who do not need to rip of people and deliver this service at an acceptable price - it is the greediness of ZOS, which is putting me off that much - and it can be seen in so many areas of the game, where the effort required is actually very low (like a new texture on a mount) and they nevertheless demand a very high price for it. ZOS is just an awfully greedy company and it shows everywhere.
You call ZoS greedy because they produce something for money while greedily wanting it free for no work... lol1 -
Lysette✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »
You call ZoS greedy because they produce something for money while greedily wanting it free for no work... lol
What I want is that ZOS sticks to their original idea for ESO+ - if you are a subscriber you do not have to pay extra for any game content as far as landmass goes - and ZOS is now no longer sticking to this idea and is not delivering on their promisses for ESO+ - out of greediness they break the contract with us ESO+ subscribers one-sided.Edited by Lysette on May 1, 2017 9:33AM3 -
Gargath✭✭✭✭✭
✭I won't buy it now, there are already Morrowind lands in base game, and I don't want bear companion, I have bear mount. Also most of the new skills looks like a copy of actual skills just with different names and animations. The lack of new weapons, lack of spears, lack of new free characters to start on, is disqualifying, especially considering the price.
So will wait half a year untill they realise this actual release for cash was a mistake and the expansion will be included to ESO+. I'm sure about it. I'm patient. Oh and it will possibly have all childhood illnesses cured to this day
. PC EU (PL): 14 characters. ESO player since 06.08.2015. Farkas finest quote: "Some people don't think I'm smart. Those people get my fist. But you, I like."0 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
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What I want is that ZOS sticks to their original idea for ESO+ - if you are a subscriber you do not have to pay extra for any game content as far as landmass goes - and ZOS is now no longer sticking to this idea and is not delivering on their promisses for ESO+ - out of greediness they break the contract with us ESO+ subscribers one-sided.
Uh... You do not know what greed is, do you? They produce a different product with more content and you want it free... lol
ESO+ free dlc access, Morrowind is not dlcEdited by notimetocare on May 1, 2017 9:56AM0 -
colig✭✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »
Uh... You do not know what greed is, do you? They produce a different product with more content and you want it free... lol
"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good." -- Gordon GekkoEdited by colig on May 1, 2017 9:56AM0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
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What I want is that ZOS sticks to their original idea for ESO+ - if you are a subscriber you do not have to pay extra for any game content as far as landmass goes - and ZOS is now no longer sticking to this idea and is not delivering on their promisses for ESO+ - out of greediness they break the contract with us ESO+ subscribers one-sided.
While that sounds nice, what they are probably seeing is subscription for the "free" DLC and then unsubscribe when done with it. I know people squee over the crafting bag, but it is possible to live without it. And the double bank space. And the double housing limit. All you have to do is stop playing when done with the DLC. Vacation players probably don't pay the bills.While they certainly want players to vacation in Tamriel, they would prefer they spend more than $15 on ESO Plus for the month they are here.
I don't know how many vacation players are going to be forking over $30-60 per year to buy Chapters, but every time one does, they spend more money than the $15. This is likely why Morrowind doesn't come with a lot of benefits.
Maybe by the same reason which put me off from ESO - the blantant greediness of ZOS - there is a point where one can just no longer be happy with the game due to that the direction of game development focuses on money drain crap more than on anything else. And some things, which might just not be like they say it is - say "balancing" - my guess is, that they deliberately imbalance the game from one side to the other, in order to sell change tokens to PvP players - and if that is true, ESO will never be balanced, but always stay imbalanced with changing FotMs in order to sell their change tokens.
I don't think they have to deliberately balance to drive min/max players to buy change tokens. There is always a maximal option, and after any change, this could require a respec. Look at how many want class change after this Update? The desire to maximize, or follow those who do, will push them, and if they can't easily change, they get frustrated. You can see this in the forum. ZOS doesn't have to do anything special, other than what they feel is best for the game. Players will add the rest.
While I think ZOS will give us class change tokens, to ease frustration, doing so could actually damage the game by making it too easy for players to spend money to get to maximal characters.Edited by Elsonso on May 1, 2017 4:21PM0 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭Agree. Morrowind is too small to be called expansion. Part of the content from it should be in free update. Rest should be as regular DLC, which we should have access as long as we have ESO+ membership.
I don't think it's too small; battlegrounds+new class+new trial+a map the size of Orsinium and many more. Which part of the content 'should' be free in your opinion? And I'd agree with the eso+ giving you BG's+the new class or whatever it is but @lordrichter has a terribly good point. I pre ordered already knowing it would be worth it, only thing I don't like entirely is the free base game update lol..the irony.The Flyers0 -
Wifeaggro13✭✭✭✭✭
✭"Other MMOs do this."
"It's only $$$, just save up."
"It's not a DLC, it's a chapter."
"You don't have to buy it. Base game is perfectly fine."
"ZOS is obligated to make as much money as they can."
"If you can't afford it, don't buy it and shut up."
"DOOOOOM GLOOM"
"cool story bro"
"Why do people complain so much?"
"ESO is different from other MMOs."
coming from the guys who has been playing since last summer. Don't worry you'll get there lol. the content is light for 45 dollars but your statements are true. All except they are obligated to make as much money as possible. the first obligation should be to their customers not their shareholders.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Wifeaggro13 wrote: »coming from the guys who has been playing since last summer. Don't worry you'll get there lol. the content is light for 45 dollars but your statements are true. All except they are obligated to make as much money as possible. the first obligation should be to their customers not their shareholders.
Oddly enough, the people who invest money in companies that make games would disagree. Kickstarter aside, I would guess that games are frequently developed with the assistance of investments from outside the studio. I have to think that few studios can afford to fund a few years of development with no immediate payoff. Investment is necessary. While one can argue that without customers paying for the game, there is no return on that investment, it is equally arguable that without the initial investment, there would be no game for customers to buy.
ZOS and Bethesda have ZeniMax Media looming over them, and that seems to be the source of all initial development funding, even from external investors. Games like Skyrim, Fallout 4, Prey, Dishonored, Doom, and ESO provide cash to help fund further development, but they still seem to accept outside investment. Who knows how much ZM takes this money and passes it around between studios to help fund whatever they are working on next.0
