ZOS vision of balance doesn't add up.

Jamascus

@ZOS_RichLambert If you want all classes to be able to perform all roles effectively, why do we have class specific skills? If you really want that, dissolve the classes all together(which I'm not advocating) and make all current class skills available to everyone. Also, why did you dust off Warden from alpha and introduce it with yet another class specific healing line? Furthermore, why make Templars, or any class for that matter, worse at doing specific things? You could buff the under performing skills/classes instead. For example, instead of making rushed ceremony directional, why not make blessing of protection like breath of life currently is?

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[Edited for Name in Tittle]

OutLaw_Nynx

Nvm

stuartx13

Warden should be way didffarnt and nt take anything from temp class.but just see how thing pan out.

Jamascus

stuartx13 wrote: »

Warden should be way didffarnt and nt take anything from temp class.but just see how thing pan out.

This is one reason why I haven't purchased the Morrowind dlc, expansion, chapter.

lunalitetempler

Jamascus wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert If you want all classes to be able to perform all roles effectively, why do we have class specific skills? If you really want that, dissolve the classes all together and make all current class skills available to everyone. Also, why did you dust off Warden from alpha and introduce it with yet another class specific healing line? Furthermore, why make Templars, or any class for that matter, worse at doing specific things? You could buff the under performing skills/classes instead. For example, instead of making rushed ceremony directional, why not make blessing of protection like breath of life currently is?

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If you din't watch the ESO live, watch it or watch it again. Its explained in plain English.

Although I for one would like one character to have all classes in one, great idea.

Lord_Eomer

All classes should never fit all role,

This is just killing gameplay variety!

Jamascus

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert If you want all classes to be able to perform all roles effectively, why do we have class specific skills? If you really want that, dissolve the classes all together and make all current class skills available to everyone. Also, why did you dust off Warden from alpha and introduce it with yet another class specific healing line? Furthermore, why make Templars, or any class for that matter, worse at doing specific things? You could buff the under performing skills/classes instead. For example, instead of making rushed ceremony directional, why not make blessing of protection like breath of life currently is?

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If you din't watch the ESO live, watch it or watch it again. Its explained in plain English.

Although I for one would like one character to have all classes in one, great idea.

They stated very specifically in ESO Live yesterday that they didn't want us to feel like we had to bring a Templar for group content because it has such unique abilities and that is why they applied the changes they did to Spear Shards. I'm questioning them because I want them to be logically consistent. If they truly want their game to be that way then why do they keep presenting class specific skills lines that contradict their intended vision for the game?

Tyrusaran

Jamascus wrote: »

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert If you want all classes to be able to perform all roles effectively, why do we have class specific skills? If you really want that, dissolve the classes all together and make all current class skills available to everyone. Also, why did you dust off Warden from alpha and introduce it with yet another class specific healing line? Furthermore, why make Templars, or any class for that matter, worse at doing specific things? You could buff the under performing skills/classes instead. For example, instead of making rushed ceremony directional, why not make blessing of protection like breath of life currently is?

edited for punctuation

If you din't watch the ESO live, watch it or watch it again. Its explained in plain English.

Although I for one would like one character to have all classes in one, great idea.

They stated very specifically in ESO Live yesterday that they didn't want us to feel like we had to bring a Templar for group content because it has such unique abilities and that is why they applied the changes they did to Spear Shards. I'm questioning them because I want them to be logically consistent. If they truly want their game to be that way then why do they keep presenting class specific skills lines that contradict their intended vision for the game?

But they want us to feel we have to bring a warden right? because they have to sell their crap class and crap expac right?

warden is *** and takes skills from other classes it has no right to. in beta we were allready pissed there was not a dedicated stam class and now they *** some more on classes and skills to make a buck (they think).

bg22

I've said that since beta... just get rid of classes. Make all abilities available to everyone. Solves ALL balance issues and allows for endless amounts of diversity.

Zvorgin

There are four slots in group dungeons, with a 5th class someone had to go.

Jamascus

Tyrusaran wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert If you want all classes to be able to perform all roles effectively, why do we have class specific skills? If you really want that, dissolve the classes all together and make all current class skills available to everyone. Also, why did you dust off Warden from alpha and introduce it with yet another class specific healing line? Furthermore, why make Templars, or any class for that matter, worse at doing specific things? You could buff the under performing skills/classes instead. For example, instead of making rushed ceremony directional, why not make blessing of protection like breath of life currently is?

edited for punctuation

If you din't watch the ESO live, watch it or watch it again. Its explained in plain English.

Although I for one would like one character to have all classes in one, great idea.

They stated very specifically in ESO Live yesterday that they didn't want us to feel like we had to bring a Templar for group content because it has such unique abilities and that is why they applied the changes they did to Spear Shards. I'm questioning them because I want them to be logically consistent. If they truly want their game to be that way then why do they keep presenting class specific skills lines that contradict their intended vision for the game?

But they want us to feel we have to bring a warden right? because they have to sell their crap class and crap expac right?

warden is *** and takes skills from other classes it has no right to. in beta we were allready pissed there was not a dedicated stam class and now they *** some more on classes and skills to make a buck (they think).

It certainly feels this way. I think it's more of a problem with their logic. Their foundation is flawed so everything built on top of it will be unstable.

WalksonGraves

Jamascus wrote: »

lunalitetempler wrote: »

Jamascus wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert If you want all classes to be able to perform all roles effectively, why do we have class specific skills? If you really want that, dissolve the classes all together and make all current class skills available to everyone. Also, why did you dust off Warden from alpha and introduce it with yet another class specific healing line? Furthermore, why make Templars, or any class for that matter, worse at doing specific things? You could buff the under performing skills/classes instead. For example, instead of making rushed ceremony directional, why not make blessing of protection like breath of life currently is?

edited for punctuation

If you din't watch the ESO live, watch it or watch it again. Its explained in plain English.

Although I for one would like one character to have all classes in one, great idea.

They stated very specifically in ESO Live yesterday that they didn't want us to feel like we had to bring a Templar for group content because it has such unique abilities and that is why they applied the changes they did to Spear Shards. I'm questioning them because I want them to be logically consistent. If they truly want their game to be that way then why do they keep presenting class specific skills lines that contradict their intended vision for the game?

Yeah you no longer need templars for anything, great design choice. Heaven forbid anyone uses anything but sorcs.

I swear a year from now Sorcs will be the best dps, healers and tanks.

stuartx13

IM just going to see /i still have to much fun in game is the class all or should it be a MMO reambear your friend you have made and the fun times and try it agine with new class and reworking things.

notimetocare

The logic in here... Effectively and homogeneous is not the same...

starkerealm

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

All classes should never fit all role,

This is just killing gameplay variety!

Not necessarily.

If every class is approaching each role in the same way, and is just a pallet swap, then yeah, that eats variety. However, if each class has different tools to approach each role, two classes can still fulfill the same role.

For example, you can have a class that tanks by healing off the damage. You can have a tank that avoids taking damage (EDIT: literally, dodging out of the way). You can have a tank that generates temporary health to act as a shield for incoming attacks. You can have a tank that gains additional damage mitigation as the fight progresses, meaning they take less damage from each hit. You can have a retaliation tank, who still takes damage, but then deals it right back into the enemy. You can have a minion tank, where the actual tanking is done by their summons, and they support them. You can have a control tank, that locks up enemy movement or attacks, and keeps their enemies out of reach.

There are a lot of ways to tank. Just like there are a lot of ways to heal, or DPS. So each class could fill all three roles in radically different ways, maintaining gameplay variety. Problem is, ESO doesn't really do that... but it could.

Narvuntien

If you just keep buffing everything you get power creep and then the game just becomes trival. That is a bad place to be.

everybody... gets nerfed.... sometimess.

idk

Having only one class would be boring.

Tanking is a great example. Some prefer DK tanking while others strongly prefer NB and Templar tanking. The different flavor of each class is why. If we did not have classes this variation would not exist making the game more boring.

Galwylin

If the goal is any class should be able to heal as well as a templar then why can't a templar do other roles as well as another class? There doesn't seem to be this rush to make them better tanks or dps so why go after their healing role? So far, they've just nerfed their healing role but left them subpar in the others. Have I missed where they tank as well as a dragonknight or damage as well as a sorcerer. And nightblades, what happen there?

ComboBreaker88

bg22 wrote: »

I've said that since beta... just get rid of classes. Make all abilities available to everyone. Solves ALL balance issues and allows for endless amounts of diversity.

No.. this would create a lack of diversity. Everyone would be running the exact same builds.

max_only

Zvorgin wrote: »

There are four slots in group dungeons, with a 5th class someone had to go.

So you mean nightblades

idk

Galwylin wrote: »

If the goal is any class should be able to heal as well as a templar then why can't a templar do other roles as well as another class? There doesn't seem to be this rush to make them better tanks or dps so why go after their healing role? So far, they've just nerfed their healing role but left them subpar in the others. Have I missed where they tank as well as a dragonknight or damage as well as a sorcerer. And nightblades, what happen there?

@Galwylin

Templars are solid tanks and do decent DPS. A Templar has tanked multiple clears of the hardest PvE content in the game and Templars are still seen in very solid core teams clearing the same content.

Lavennin

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I've said that since beta... just get rid of classes. Make all abilities available to everyone. Solves ALL balance issues and allows for endless amounts of diversity.

No.. this would create a lack of diversity. Everyone would be running the exact same builds.

Not necessarily. Not everyone is into min-maxing. Not even the majority of people are.

However, allowing more freedom (even an illusion of freedom) is always a harder design choice. And to have all skill lines available to everyone, the devs must face unpredictable outcomes everyday. In a MMO you do want to avoid most of the extreme outcomes (in single player games it does not matter a player can one-shot the end game boss, though).

So the most reasonable choice is to limit players in some fashion, reducing the design difficulty. Well, and they can justify it by thinking "MMO players love to have classes (and a dumbed down RPG system)."

KochDerDamonen

Because they designed a game with MMO classes, not TES classes.

If we want ESO without locked-in classes, we're waiting for ESO 2 I guess.

Jamascus

notimetocare wrote: »

The logic in here... Effectively and homogeneous is not the same...

Correct, those two words have different definitions, but their vision effectively makes all classes homogenous.

klowdy1

bg22 wrote: »

I've said that since beta... just get rid of classes. Make all abilities available to everyone. Solves ALL balance issues and allows for endless amounts of diversity.

Not true, it would cause all stam dps to be one thing, all magicka dps to be one thing, all healers to be one thing, and maybe a few kinds of tanks. Balance would be there, but diversity would go out the window. People will find the best spec for each setup (stam, mag, and healing), and instead of 8 different dps specs, one for each focus on each class, we would have 2 dps specs.

idk

Lavennin wrote: »

ComboBreaker88 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I've said that since beta... just get rid of classes. Make all abilities available to everyone. Solves ALL balance issues and allows for endless amounts of diversity.

No.. this would create a lack of diversity. Everyone would be running the exact same builds.

Not necessarily. Not everyone is into min-maxing. Not even the majority of people are.

However, allowing more freedom (even an illusion of freedom) is always a harder design choice. And to have all skill lines available to everyone, the devs must face unpredictable outcomes everyday. In a MMO you do want to avoid most of the extreme outcomes (in single player games it does not matter a player can one-shot the end game boss, though).

So the most reasonable choice is to limit players in some fashion, reducing the design difficulty. Well, and they can justify it by thinking "MMO players love to have classes (and a dumbed down RPG system)."

An illusion of freedom is not freedom. Using the term illusion itself acknowledges it and makes everything else you said questionable at best.

Further, you comment about min-maxing is debatable. Considering all the threads that pop up about someone not being able to raid with a group or guild because they did not use a meta build is really about them not producing the DPS the group wants. Basically, eliminating classes, for the few that want such a thing, would hem more people into specific builds so they can do what they want.

More importantly, those the spread between those who choose to not play any of the top builds or anything close would increase pushing the more casual player further down the ladder. All in the name of an Illusion of Freedom.

Jamascus

Narvuntien wrote: »

If you just keep buffing everything you get power creep and then the game just becomes trival. That is a bad place to be.

everybody... gets nerfed.... sometimess.

Power creep is bad. In this case, champion points are the culprit, not breath of life.

Jamascus

klowdy1 wrote: »

bg22 wrote: »

I've said that since beta... just get rid of classes. Make all abilities available to everyone. Solves ALL balance issues and allows for endless amounts of diversity.

Not true, it would cause all stam dps to be one thing, all magicka dps to be one thing, all healers to be one thing, and maybe a few kinds of tanks. Balance would be there, but diversity would go out the window. People will find the best spec for each setup (stam, mag, and healing), and instead of 8 different dps specs, one for each focus on each class, we would have 2 dps specs.

That's why they shouldn't be trying to make all the classes perform all roles.

Catnight

They should have all classes designed to have one of her skilltrees for one particular role. So that every class has one tree to heal, one to do damage and one to tank. Not in the same way of course, for example healing would have been more livestealing for nightblades (like it is but much greater) and also socerers (its dark magic after all), for DKs more healing aoe and templers more direct healing (as they have).

The problem is, most people here seem to like it to push you in the role your class has in most MMOs. Like the whole "A SORCERER-HEALER???? OMG, get out!!" - thing. In a Tab-Targeting (or Hybrid-Combat) game where you are hit anywhere when you are in the target of your opponent, these roles may have their right of existence but in ESO they have not. In my opnion, ZOS should have drop the role-rule in the group finder as soon as possible.

Kiralyn2000

Zvorgin wrote: »

There are four slots in group dungeons, with a 5th class someone had to go.

So every party up to now had 1 templar, 1 DK, 1 sorc, and 1 nightblade?

STEVIL

Jamascus wrote: »

@ZOS_RichLambert If you want all classes to be able to perform all roles effectively, why do we have class specific skills? If you really want that, dissolve the classes all together(which I'm not advocating) and make all current class skills available to everyone. Also, why did you dust off Warden from alpha and introduce it with yet another class specific healing line? Furthermore, why make Templars, or any class for that matter, worse at doing specific things? You could buff the under performing skills/classes instead. For example, instead of making rushed ceremony directional, why not make blessing of protection like breath of life currently is?

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[Edited for Name in Tittle]

In my experience classes serve functions in shaping and diversifying the player choices.
Without classes you wind up with often fewer builds fitting fewer metas.
Classes without "better at this" and "worse at that" distinctions are pretty close to "without classes" in that regard as well.

On the other hand, as was stated yesterday, they want all classes to be "capable" of each role but not necessarily equally capable. By that I have always taken it as wanting you to be able to deal with **most** content (say all normal) in any role with any character if you work at it spec out for it etc. however, they dont necessarily want you to be able to do every role to the level needed for say hard mode leaderboard stuff with every class with the vet mode stuff being a maybe maybe not.

i like the new class, i see things i can use it for that the other classes wont give me the same play experience. TBH while its billed as a support based character i actually see plenty of solo potential with it.

Now some may share this viewpoint or disagree... thats fine. Classes and segregation of capability at any level (all levels vs top tier only) is something folks find good or bad as a matter of taste. More than one flavor ice cream and all of it is good for someone.