[Suggestion] A controversial buff to Red guards.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

So, I'm sitting back thinking about how bad I wanted to play a Red Guard since I like their look but then I realized, I prefer Mage characters and therefore and I cannot play a Red Guard optimally. Adding to that, there's a lot of problems with Red Guards in my opinion. Looking at just what I see plus a lot of polls, Red Guards are one of, if not, the least played race in the game. Why? They are pretty much forced into one role and one role only: Stamina Melee. But the thing is, Lore wise, they don't have to be. Furthermore, they are getting nerfed and that's only going to reduce their numbers even more.

Now, I might get a few eye-rolls and hate responses but hear me out. Red Guards can actually be good at magic. Lore wise, yeah, the common red guard looks at magic as evil and weak. Yet by the end of the day, who are their most powerful and elite soldiers? Surprise surprise! it is none other than the "Ansei". These guys have perfected the art of magic and sword play and use them in harmony. These are extremely powerful mages in their own right while also being well known and feared warriors at the same time. We've already seen a sect of their order already, The Sword Singers. Most Red Guards would never admit that even their most powerful soldiers are practitioners of magic, of course. Adding in the fact that their are definitely powerful Red Guard mages in history like Azra Nightwielder who was said to be one of the most powerful mages in the third Era. (and also pretty much discovered Shadow Magic).

Not to mention, in almost every Elder scrolls, Red Guards get a bonus to +Destruction magic and +Alteration magic. Why? Because despite their huffs and puffs about magic, they still use it. Albeit in secret.

So, where are we going with this? What if there was a way to bring numbers to the Red Guard race while also giving them some diversity? Here's what I thought.

Ansei Training: Increases magicka by x% while also increasing all magic damage by y%.

I hardly doubt the magicka increase would be more than 5% but it'd be "something". Optimally speaking, you'd probably still be better off as a High Elf, Breton and Dunmer. But, at least playing a magicka Red Guard character wouldn't raise eyebrows.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

FlyLionel

No (and why)

What? I'm confused. You want Redguard to be a magic based race now? And redguard is the strongest race for stam on live..

xeNNNNN

Yes

I agree with flyLionel but I said yes purely because from a lore prespective it would make sense and that it would also add diversity to the race in terms of gameplay as well.

Bouldercleave

No (and why)

Redguard is one word...

That being said,

No

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Yes

FlyLionel wrote: »

What? I'm confused. You want Redguard to be a magic based race now? And redguard is the strongest race for stam on live..

No, I want them to have an option for that. A bit of duality if you would. There's a lot of lore reasons why they can.

Regardless of being the strongest stam race, they still pale in comparison numbers wise to less optimal stam or magicka races because they're shoe horned into being not just "stam" based, but melee stamina based. Adding what I suggested might be a way to boost their numbers so people might actually be interested in them.

Like, when I'm on peak times on the ps4, I think I'll see like...1-2 red guards among hundreds of everyone else. Don't you think that meta wise, that is weird? If they're supposedly the strongest stam race, why aren't they represented more? I see far more Stamina Khajit, Bosmer, Argonians and even Nords than Red Guards.

Honestly, I think the only race less represented than RedGuards are Orcs. And Orcs are just because they're not physically attractive.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Yes

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Redguard is one word...

That being said,

No

Why?

Bouldercleave

No (and why)

Their strength is in Stamina Melee - Someone's has to be.

The problem is that Stamina Melee is a niche market right now. It's not the race that's the problem - it's that Stamina builds are weak compared to Magicka right now.

Wait a while - that'll change eventually.

LadyNalcarya

No (and why)

It doesnt make any sense imo. Ansei training is something very different from traditional magic, much like Thu'um, and in any case, Ansei are already extinct at this point.

Not to mention, in almost every Elder scrolls, Red Guards get a bonus to +Destruction magic and +Alteration magic. Why? Because despite their huffs and puffs about magic, they still use it. Albeit in secret.

Ehh I guess "almost every elder scrolls" is Skyrim?

starkerealm

So, you want to turn the Redguard into Dunmer?

It's true, any sentient race on Nirn can learn magic... well, maybe not the Imga. There are a number of very powerful Redguard mages in TES's history, just like the part where Shalador is a Nord. Similarly, there have been Bretons and Altmer who were warriors of renown, who never learned magic beyond the basics. That's kind of a thing with the setting. However, that's not what the racial passives are meant to represent.

The racial passives in ESO reflect a character's cultural and ethnic background. "Modern," (read: Second Era) Redguard have been distantly removed from the mages in their history. They have a rich culture, but it's not one that embraces magic the way some of the other on Tamriel do. It's just not, "their thing."

So, no.

oterWitz

I see good points in both regards, I just want add frim my experience with Dunmers: one passive gives a boost to flame damage, so we ideally use flame staves. But another passive gives boosts to both magicka and stamina.

Perhaps one of the redguard passives can include a similar dual bonus, in order to fit lore as you say, while maintaining their stamina melee role.

That being said, the minute ZoS does this, many would cry about the continued favoring of magicka over stamina. "ZoS, is this it, then? Are you giving up on even pretending stamina roles are viable?"

See the dilemma?

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Yes

starkerealm wrote: »

So, you want to turn the Redguard into Dunmer?

It's true, any sentient race on Nirn can learn magic... well, maybe not the Imga. There are a number of very powerful Redguard mages in TES's history, just like the part where Shalador is a Nord. Similarly, there have been Bretons and Altmer who were warriors of renown, who never learned magic beyond the basics. That's kind of a thing with the setting. However, that's not what the racial passives are meant to represent.

The racial passives in ESO reflect a character's cultural and ethnic background. "Modern," (read: Second Era) Redguard have been distantly removed from the mages in their history. They have a rich culture, but it's not one that embraces magic the way some of the other on Tamriel do. It's just not, "their thing."

So, no.

The problem is, racials as a whole restrict players on playstyle. Sure, if racials were only a 1-2% bonus then that would be no issue but some of the advantages are a whole 10%. That kind of advantage while fine in SP games has no place in MMO where that kind of advantage could be the difference between a vet Maw clear and a wipe. Even in a vet dungeon, you'll be removed for being, "the wrong race" .

The purpose of offering duality to races is so the playing field is more even. Currently, racials are a balancing nightmare because of the fact that the bonuses are so dramatic.

starkerealm

The other problem with this is: Racial passives are designed to give each race a different "flavor," when you're playing. Making the Redguards another spellsword race, like the Dunmer, would diminish the range of options players had to choose from.

LadyNalcarya

No (and why)

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

So, you want to turn the Redguard into Dunmer?

It's true, any sentient race on Nirn can learn magic... well, maybe not the Imga. There are a number of very powerful Redguard mages in TES's history, just like the part where Shalador is a Nord. Similarly, there have been Bretons and Altmer who were warriors of renown, who never learned magic beyond the basics. That's kind of a thing with the setting. However, that's not what the racial passives are meant to represent.

The racial passives in ESO reflect a character's cultural and ethnic background. "Modern," (read: Second Era) Redguard have been distantly removed from the mages in their history. They have a rich culture, but it's not one that embraces magic the way some of the other on Tamriel do. It's just not, "their thing."

So, no.

The problem is, racials as a whole restrict players on playstyle. Sure, if racials were only a 1-2% bonus then that would be no issue but some of the advantages are a whole 10%. That kind of advantage while fine in SP games has no place in MMO where that kind of advantage could be the difference between a vet Maw clear and a wipe. Even in a vet dungeon, you'll be removed for being, "the wrong race" .

The purpose of offering duality to races is so the playing field is more even. Currently, racials are a balancing nightmare because of the fact that the bonuses are so dramatic.

Imo it would be better if they would just let us choose our character's background instead of shoehorning them into racial stereotypes.
For example, they could keep "racial" passives like argonian swim speed etc, but let the player choose the rest of them. I think it would make sense if a nord scholar would be better at magic than an altmer soldier (for example).

FlyLionel

No (and why)

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

FlyLionel wrote: »

What? I'm confused. You want Redguard to be a magic based race now? And redguard is the strongest race for stam on live..

No, I want them to have an option for that. A bit of duality if you would. There's a lot of lore reasons why they can.

Regardless of being the strongest stam race, they still pale in comparison numbers wise to less optimal stam or magicka races because they're shoe horned into being not just "stam" based, but melee stamina based. Adding what I suggested might be a way to boost their numbers so people might actually be interested in them.

Like, when I'm on peak times on the ps4, I think I'll see like...1-2 red guards among hundreds of everyone else. Don't you think that meta wise, that is weird? If they're supposedly the strongest stam race, why aren't they represented more? I see far more Stamina Khajit, Bosmer, Argonians and even Nords than Red Guards.

Honestly, I think the only race less represented than RedGuards are Orcs. And Orcs are just because they're not physically attractive.

Well as a fellow PS4 player as well, we both know our community is in the 1% Everyone generally at endgame stamina wise is khajit or redguard. That is it(I'm imperial cus...imperial was beast back then and *** race change). Casual players(majority in towns) play argonian(ugh)/highelf/woodelf/khajit(ugh) races. Personally I don't have a Redguard character(sustain was never an issue in pvp running drinks back then+current meta with cp), but that is changing once Warden comes out. Remember we're the minority; not everyone is speed running vet DLC dungeons to knock dailies out/vet trial farming trying to min/max etc etc.

Zvorgin

Yes

Zos is pushing hybrid sets, more spread out resources through lower caps on resource return skills / synergies, and thus pushing hybrid builds. Might as well get more hybrid race passives.

starkerealm

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

So, you want to turn the Redguard into Dunmer?

It's true, any sentient race on Nirn can learn magic... well, maybe not the Imga. There are a number of very powerful Redguard mages in TES's history, just like the part where Shalador is a Nord. Similarly, there have been Bretons and Altmer who were warriors of renown, who never learned magic beyond the basics. That's kind of a thing with the setting. However, that's not what the racial passives are meant to represent.

The racial passives in ESO reflect a character's cultural and ethnic background. "Modern," (read: Second Era) Redguard have been distantly removed from the mages in their history. They have a rich culture, but it's not one that embraces magic the way some of the other on Tamriel do. It's just not, "their thing."

So, no.

The problem is, racials as a whole restrict players on playstyle. Sure, if racials were only a 1-2% bonus then that would be no issue but some of the advantages are a whole 10%. That kind of advantage while fine in SP games has no place in MMO where that kind of advantage could be the difference between a vet Maw clear and a wipe. Even in a vet dungeon, you'll be removed for being, "the wrong race" .

The purpose of offering duality to races is so the playing field is more even. Currently, racials are a balancing nightmare because of the fact that the bonuses are so dramatic.

I don't even want to know what kind of crapsack groups you've been running veteran dungeons with.

Technically, it's true, 10% is a pretty massive bonus, and if that existed in isolation, then that would be very important. Thing is, because every race has access to some modifiers, it's not nearly as significant as you seem to think. Further, arguing to homogenize the various races together isn't going to make for a better game, just a duller one.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Yes

starkerealm wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

So, you want to turn the Redguard into Dunmer?

It's true, any sentient race on Nirn can learn magic... well, maybe not the Imga. There are a number of very powerful Redguard mages in TES's history, just like the part where Shalador is a Nord. Similarly, there have been Bretons and Altmer who were warriors of renown, who never learned magic beyond the basics. That's kind of a thing with the setting. However, that's not what the racial passives are meant to represent.

The racial passives in ESO reflect a character's cultural and ethnic background. "Modern," (read: Second Era) Redguard have been distantly removed from the mages in their history. They have a rich culture, but it's not one that embraces magic the way some of the other on Tamriel do. It's just not, "their thing."

So, no.

The problem is, racials as a whole restrict players on playstyle. Sure, if racials were only a 1-2% bonus then that would be no issue but some of the advantages are a whole 10%. That kind of advantage while fine in SP games has no place in MMO where that kind of advantage could be the difference between a vet Maw clear and a wipe. Even in a vet dungeon, you'll be removed for being, "the wrong race" .

The purpose of offering duality to races is so the playing field is more even. Currently, racials are a balancing nightmare because of the fact that the bonuses are so dramatic.

I don't even want to know what kind of crapsack groups you've been running veteran dungeons with.

Technically, it's true, 10% is a pretty massive bonus, and if that existed in isolation, then that would be very important. Thing is, because every race has access to some modifiers, it's not nearly as significant as you seem to think. Further, arguing to homogenize the various races together isn't going to make for a better game, just a duller one.

Does it really make for a duller game though ? In my opinion, races that are shoe horned into a particular playstyle thus making whatever they do pretty predictable is "dull".

Also, the thing is, yes. All races have access to a modifier, but let's be honest. Some races have better racials than others and to me that's rather restricting when it comes to variety. All these massive racial bonuses do is promote fotm race changes.

" Oh, my race got nerfed, time to change to another race".

People aren't playing the race they want to play anymore. They're playing what it is meta. To have a meta dictate the race that is deemed acceptable for whatever you intend to play is wrong to me.


And for the record, I get it. Metas will exist but existing to the point of something that should be more about looks is just too extreme to me.

Callous2208

No (and why)

Be happy, from a game mechanic and lore standpoint. According to ESO racials, nords excel at nothing. Not the clever arts, not archery, not on the field of battle as melee warriors. No, the racial system in eso decided that in a few situations, nords could be a half percent tougher than the other guys. Enjoy being the top dog melee stamina class, you can't have it all. Some of us have nothing.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Yes

Callous2208 wrote: »

Be happy, from a game mechanic and lore standpoint. According to ESO racials, nords excel at nothing. Not the clever arts, not archery, not on the field of battle as melee warriors. No, the racial system in eso decided that in a few situations, nords could be a half percent tougher than the other guys. Enjoy being the top dog melee stamina class, you can't have it all. Some of us have nothing.

That just proves my point. People are choosing race based on meta and the mercy of the balance team who not only has to balance skills and class tree's, but they have to balance all those with a race's racial skill. That's a njghtmare for balance but they could do themselves a favor...

idk

No (and why)

FlyLionel wrote: »

What? I'm confused. You want Redguard to be a magic based race now? And redguard is the strongest race for stam on live..

Have to ageee.

I like how people want something changes to meet they're style due to wanting a pretty character with disregard for everyone else who has chosen that race and their style of play.


OP, for diversity between magika and stamina the dunmer is a good choice.

makreth

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Redguard is one word...

That being said,

No

Red guards NO.

But....


Blue guards can be magicka oriented!

DPShiro

No (and why)

No.

Ansei don't practice their arts using magicka.

idk

No (and why)

makreth wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Redguard is one word...

That being said,

No

Red guards NO.

But....


Blue guards can be magicka oriented!

Blue guards no longer exist. The Redguards saw to their demise long ago.

Skayaq

No (and why)

Redguard bonuses in Morrowind: +10 Str (Male only) -10 Int, -10 Willpower, +10 end, -10 Personality (male only), +15 long blade, +5 axe, blunt wep, athletics, heavy armor and short blade. Not only did they not have any magicka bonuses, they were actually weaker in the magicka attributes. The same was the case in Oblivion. Only in skyrim did they have bonuses to magicka skills, and most of Skyrims skill bonuses were messed up.

Also, Most people don't play meta, they play what they want or redguards would be played a lot more, because as others said they are the top stamina race.

Agalloch

Redguard in Morrowind must be the same like it is now on the live server!

starkerealm

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

Does it really make for a duller game though ?

Yes.

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

In my opinion, races that are shoe horned into a particular playstyle thus making whatever they do pretty predictable is "dull".

Which is more dull, nine or ten options which each have a distinct role with some overlap, or two options with little deviation between them?

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

Also, the thing is, yes. All races have access to a modifier, but let's be honest. Some races have better racials than others and to me that's rather restricting when it comes to variety. All these massive racial bonuses do is promote fotm race changes.

" Oh, my race got nerfed, time to change to another race".

This actually does happen with some of the idiots who got their tongue frozen on the meta, when it kicked over. We especially saw it when the tokens were first introduced.

That said, I think it's stupid. Spending real money to swap out your character's race, because of how the passives were changed. (Unless you were playing an Argonian, their passives were radically altered after launch.)

The people dry humping the meta that hard aren't players you really want to associate with, if you can help it. They're there, waiting for someone else to tell them how to have a good time, not to actually play the game or enjoy it for themselves.

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

People aren't playing the race they want to play anymore. They're playing what it is meta. To have a meta dictate the race that is deemed acceptable for whatever you intend to play is wrong to me.

And for the record, I get it. Metas will exist but existing to the point of something that should be more about looks is just too extreme to me.

I'm playing the race I want to play. I've got three stamina based Bretons. A NB, a sorc, and a DK with an utterly hilarious spell resist. I had four, but switched my Templar over to magicka on a whim. I've also got an Imperial sorc that, until recently, was a magicka build.

You can play who you want. Your racial pick isn't a handcuff, and you can usually get some value out of your racial passives even when they're off spec, if you're a little creative. When someone tells you, "no, you can't play this, it'll cause us to wipe in a vet dungeon," they're just not a good player. All they understand is chasing someone else's cookie cutter to the letter.

You want to roll a Redguard and spec them for Magicka? Don't let me stop you.

GiuEliN0

No (and why)

Eh? Redguards the least race played?
Really the strongest stamina race, with khajiit...
Maybe stamina is least played... But this is another problem...

Nermy

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Redguard is one word...

That being said,

No

Yeah, I thought this post was about EP guards in PvP or something...

Dracindo

You want to be a redguard mage? (in Shia Labeouf voice) DO IT!
Don't let optimalization and other players tell you what to do.

Elsterchen

No (and why)

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

So, I'm sitting back thinking about how bad I wanted to play a Red Guard since I like their look but then I realized, I prefer Mage characters and therefore and I cannot play a Red Guard optimally. Adding to that, there's a lot of problems with Red Guards in my opinion. Looking at just what I see plus a lot of polls, Red Guards are one of, if not, the least played race in the game. Why? They are pretty much forced into one role and one role only: Stamina Melee. But the thing is, Lore wise, they don't have to be. Furthermore, they are getting nerfed and that's only going to reduce their numbers even more.

Lore-wise this race does have a tradition in eyeing magic very negatevely ... a nice summary of redguard history and society can be found here: en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Redguard, but there are many othe sources out there as well.

Now go to the corner and get your piece of shame, please.

... and afterwards pls continue with redguard history, pls. Specifically the part about Ansei - the sworn ENEMIES of redguards...

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Yes

Elsterchen wrote: »

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

So, I'm sitting back thinking about how bad I wanted to play a Red Guard since I like their look but then I realized, I prefer Mage characters and therefore and I cannot play a Red Guard optimally. Adding to that, there's a lot of problems with Red Guards in my opinion. Looking at just what I see plus a lot of polls, Red Guards are one of, if not, the least played race in the game. Why? They are pretty much forced into one role and one role only: Stamina Melee. But the thing is, Lore wise, they don't have to be. Furthermore, they are getting nerfed and that's only going to reduce their numbers even more.

Lore-wise this race does have a tradition in eyeing magic very negatevely ... a nice summary of redguard history and society can be found here: en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Redguard, but there are many othe sources out there as well.

Now go to the corner and get your piece of shame, please.

Clearly you read what you wanted to read and ignored the rest.