"Research Scrolls" - another step in slow death of crafting profession.

Rinmaethodain

I'm saddened to see that with each update, the role of crafter is being steadily diminished to the point where soon, everybody will be a crafter and need to find one (and all the MMO related social interactions related to that) will be permanently gone.

Each quarterly update seems to be adding another nail into coffin of crafters profession.

First, the nerf to crafted gear from very long ago. After that sure, we got plenty of new motifs but shift of meta from crafted to looted gear made them greatly useless without any form of transmog/restyle system. But if anybody bothered enough to collect motif styles soon had their work diminished with flood of chapters released in recent anniversary event.

In meantime Homestead that could revive the role of crafter was at least mediocre. Complete detachment of furniture crafting from trait researching allowed players to simply pay their way with gold to reach ranks 50 in woodworking/clothing/blacksmithing/... and become a "master furniture crafter".

Now the research scrolls. The research timers were last thing in ESO that would separate long term players from people who just joined game. Knowing all traits meant something.
Research scrolls diminish all that work and allow players to buy their way into status of master crafter in result killing profession of crafter slowly bleeding it out.

When everyone is master crafter nobody needs one. You can already buy your way into ranks 50 of crafting, soon you will be able to buy your way into max researches and you can already buy your way into master stylist (all motifs known).

Sure, not everybody is interested in crafting, there will be still players who will completely ignore that part of game... until it will become necessary to do so.

Currently players already max their crafting skills just to be able to improve bound gear to higher level with minimal use of tempers. If transmogrification will be ever added into game, ability to change style of any gear piece i bet my last pair of nuts that it will make equipment bound and by oversight only the owner of equipment will be allowed to perform it. Casualification of furniture crafting also encourages maxing out crafting skills just like that.

Whats my point? There is nothing done to help dedicated crafters to provide their services, most hurtful thing is that there is no way for them to perform any operation on bound equipment (something as simple as improve other players monster helmet).

Each patch seems to be pushing the average player into direction of crafting, subtly forcing them to do it and in result indirectly destroying way of playing for other players (dedicated crafters).

casparian

I've invested a large amount of time into crafting on multiple characters, and strongly support its being and remaining a robust part of the game that requires significant time and dedication. I agree with many of your points about how our role has become less relevant over the last few patches, and would like to see something done to make master crafting more relevant again (more on that below). But I do not agree that the addition of research scrolls in Rolis Hlaalu's stock is going to be detrimental to crafting in the way you describe. On the contrary, this will make master crafters more relevant, because it gives us access to an item that is going to be in high demand. You conjure a picture of someone becoming a master crafter through spending gold and not putting in any actual work, and you're right that everything required to become a master crafter can be bought with gold now. But you jump from that fact to the image of a single player buying his way into master craftsmanship through gold expenditure alone, which is all but impossible to do. Do you have any idea how expensive it would be to gather the rare motifs, buy all the trait items, and decrease your research times by using scrolls on cooldown? In order for a player to do what you're afraid they'll do, they would have to put in a considerable amount of time farming gold. And since that, like crafting, is a "profession" made available by the game, I'm happy for them to be able to get some reward for it.

(Edit: the above assumes that these scrolls remain in the Master Writ Voucher store and do not get added into the crown store. It would be an outrage for them to be added into the crown store. As I've said in other threads, crafting is a playstyle in its own right, akin to thieving, combat, etc. Shortening research times is not like shortening horse training times. Being able to buy shorter research times for crowns is more akin to being able to buy lower trial boss health for crowns. This must not happen.)

In order to make crafting universally relevant again, the ideal solution is for ZOS to enable costume crafting for master crafters: let master crafters craft costumes in any motif they know. This would affect combat and endgame gameplay in no way (while boosting the endgame desirability of crafted sets would rock the meta boat a bit too much to be a realistic solution), while still creating a huge demand for our services and a huge incentive to put in the work to be a master crafter. This is a far superior system to the transmogrification system many are asking for, since it limits appearance-control to those who have put in a significant amount of effort to become master crafters (and those who pay them gold).

acw37162

You can sell them for in game gold after purchasing them with master writs.

It helps bust does not make it extremely easy for a new player to become a crafter.

What is your issue with this ?

Rinmaethodain

casparian wrote: »

(...) On the contrary, this will make master crafters more relevant, because it gives us access to an item that is going to be in high demand. (...)

Only if the price is right. In situation where said scroll would be extremely cheap the market will be instantly flooded with them. Sure the demand will be there but supply will magnitude higher than it.

Tholian1

The scrolls do have a 20 hour cool down. That will be a huge investment to knock some time off of the research. I don't think the scrolls will be selling in the traders for very cheap and new players usually have an issue with making large amounts of gold.

It really depends on how many writ vouchers they will be worth.

casparian

MaximusDargus wrote: »

casparian wrote: »

(...) On the contrary, this will make master crafters more relevant, because it gives us access to an item that is going to be in high demand. (...)

Only if the price is right. In situation where said scroll would be extremely cheap the market will be instantly flooded with them. Sure the demand will be there but supply will magnitude higher than it.

Of course. If there were some reason to think that they will be extremely cheap and that supply will outstrip demand, then I might be worried. But I don't see any reason to think this will be the case, especially since it will take a huge amount of these scrolls to substantially decrease the time it takes for an individual player to reach 9-trait craftership. If you do think there is such a reason, I'd be happy to read your argument. But understanding and predicting the economic swings of MMOs is notoriously tricky.

Nestor

I am on the fence on these things. But I also don't see them as all that beneficial to a crafter looking to speed up Research Times. From another thread on this that I posted in:

Since you have to use a Research Scroll every day the item is being researched, you are going to need at least 12 for the 9th trait, assuming you have ESO Plus and all the Research Passive, and all you do is cut the research time in half. It's not like instant research completion.

Actually, you will need 12 for the 8th trait too, 6 for the 7th trait, etc etc.

Multiply this by the number of items you are researching, then multiply that number by 3.

It's not like Vouchers drop like candy.

In fact, the more I think about the Research Scrolls, the less utility I see from using them.

Tholian1

I'm curious if the scrolls are per item being researched or per crafting line.

Is there a scroll for Blacksmithing, Clothier, and Woodworking that speeds up the research time for everything currently being researched in that line, whether it is 1 item or 3?

Anyone testing these yet?

LadyNalcarya

What's the point anyway, crafting is only useful for making training gear for alts, and almost all BiS gear is dropped.
I've got a crafter with all traits and almost all motifs, but I dont even use them unless I craft for newbies or make a new character. I would like to wear crafted sets, but it would gimp my character...

wimhwimladimf

ESO is not a game for crafters, that's why crafting isnt as OP as in other games. If you want to make money, better play with AH or simply go farm.

Rinmaethodain

Just dropping by to let you know, on PTS crown store already have special "Research Scrolls" that do not have any cooldown at all.

Welcome to "9/9 crafter" in one eventing with credit card.

Nestor

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Just dropping by to let you know, on PTS crown store already have special "Research Scrolls" that do not have any cooldown at all.

Welcome to "9/9 crafter" in one eventing with credit card.

I am hoping that is only for the PTS, as your right, it would be Pay to Win if they go through. Expensive though. Figure the last 5 traits on 35 items would need 175 scrolls. The first 4 traits go kind of quick, but add those in and your looking at another 140 scrolls.

FlyLionel

I feel cheated..The worst part is there is nothing great to craft atm anyways, double L? Unless...shacklebreaker? Not even 9 traits though..

HugeMuffin

For what it's worth, this should actually be the natural progression. As new content is introduced, the old content should be easier to attain and experience for newer players. The first few years of an MMO should be compressed so that the amount of time from beginning -> end game stay the same.

These crafting scrolls are an off-shoot of that line of thinking, and this is coming from someone who has 9 traits on all wood working, 1 month away from 9 traits on all clothing, and 2 months away from 9 traits on all blacksmithy. I'm not mad because if anything, this will force new players to pay more for nirnhoned research items because I can spread out the 45k per month investment out over months and they're paying crowns to pay that more often?

No, this is a progression that we should be encouraging. It should be easier for new players to experience everything that the base game has to offer, not harder. Make the new stuff harder. If anything, not requiring traits for furniture was a major misstep as they should have made it easier to do the old stuff instead of the new stuff.

Also, please make some 9 trait gear BIS for some niche builds. I want to look pretty again.

STEVIL

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I'm saddened to see that with each update, the role of crafter is being steadily diminished to the point where soon, everybody will be a crafter and need to find one (and all the MMO related social interactions related to that) will be permanently gone.

Each quarterly update seems to be adding another nail into coffin of crafters profession.

First, the nerf to crafted gear from very long ago. After that sure, we got plenty of new motifs but shift of meta from crafted to looted gear made them greatly useless without any form of transmog/restyle system. But if anybody bothered enough to collect motif styles soon had their work diminished with flood of chapters released in recent anniversary event.

In meantime Homestead that could revive the role of crafter was at least mediocre. Complete detachment of furniture crafting from trait researching allowed players to simply pay their way with gold to reach ranks 50 in woodworking/clothing/blacksmithing/... and become a "master furniture crafter".

Now the research scrolls. The research timers were last thing in ESO that would separate long term players from people who just joined game. Knowing all traits meant something.
Research scrolls diminish all that work and allow players to buy their way into status of master crafter in result killing profession of crafter slowly bleeding it out.

When everyone is master crafter nobody needs one. You can already buy your way into ranks 50 of crafting, soon you will be able to buy your way into max researches and you can already buy your way into master stylist (all motifs known).

Sure, not everybody is interested in crafting, there will be still players who will completely ignore that part of game... until it will become necessary to do so.

Currently players already max their crafting skills just to be able to improve bound gear to higher level with minimal use of tempers. If transmogrification will be ever added into game, ability to change style of any gear piece i bet my last pair of nuts that it will make equipment bound and by oversight only the owner of equipment will be allowed to perform it. Casualification of furniture crafting also encourages maxing out crafting skills just like that.

Whats my point? There is nothing done to help dedicated crafters to provide their services, most hurtful thing is that there is no way for them to perform any operation on bound equipment (something as simple as improve other players monster helmet).

Each patch seems to be pushing the average player into direction of crafting, subtly forcing them to do it and in result indirectly destroying way of playing for other players (dedicated crafters).

The death of crafting is coming from the (i like them) 1T changes in how huge a role drops sets play in the game. the combined shift to give them all cp160 status, scaling at pickup, jewels and weapons for all the 5pc sets and the very identifiable and codified drop regimen - these make drops the more viable option for everything except convenience (waiting until you get the drop you want) and style.

The intersection of that combined with the onerous research times - that made the idea of new crafters coming in... less than it should.

To me research scolls are a move in the right direction and in keeping with the crown store policy of convenience not power.

But the key to crafting equip is to make crafting equip worthwhile.

Crafted sets need their own unique tactical and strategic components that they bring to the crafting table beyond convenience. They need to be more than just the paper plates vs the bone china of drops.

I think the key is to remove the competition between crafted and drops. There should not be a need for arguing over whether drops should be better than crafted or vice versa. They should both be needed.

THE BIG ANSWER:
IMO weapons should be taken away from all* drop sets.
This means drop sets can provide body pieces and jewels and crafted can provide body pieces and weapons.
This removes the most out of whack rng - weapon traits - and leaves the rest of the grind intact.
This means every build worth talking about would be a mix of crafted and drops and every crafter would see increased needs for their services as far as equip crafting is.

*For maelstrom and master weapons - their functions could be transferred to jewel sets (much better rng there) or they could drop tokens/mats that can be used for crafting. As an outside, maybe they could remain an exception but keep the current rng trait hunt.

SMALLER ANSWERS:
As a less drastic step, dropped weapons for sets could stay but be automatically relegated to training or prosperous.
As a less drastic step, leave drops as they are but give crafteds the ability to craft 3pc and 4pc sets dropping one or two of the 2-3-4pc bonuses from existing ones. This leaves the competition between drops and crafted intact but gives crafted the unique 3pc body/wpn and 4pc body/wpn sets to bring to the table.

But quicker research times are needed to keep bringing newer crafters into the fold... against the push away when they look at crafted vs drops.

As a crafter looking to make money... if research scrolls worry you, you are missing the forest for the twig.

Xvorg

STEVIL wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

I'm saddened to see that with each update, the role of crafter is being steadily diminished to the point where soon, everybody will be a crafter and need to find one (and all the MMO related social interactions related to that) will be permanently gone.

Each quarterly update seems to be adding another nail into coffin of crafters profession.

First, the nerf to crafted gear from very long ago. After that sure, we got plenty of new motifs but shift of meta from crafted to looted gear made them greatly useless without any form of transmog/restyle system. But if anybody bothered enough to collect motif styles soon had their work diminished with flood of chapters released in recent anniversary event.

In meantime Homestead that could revive the role of crafter was at least mediocre. Complete detachment of furniture crafting from trait researching allowed players to simply pay their way with gold to reach ranks 50 in woodworking/clothing/blacksmithing/... and become a "master furniture crafter".

Now the research scrolls. The research timers were last thing in ESO that would separate long term players from people who just joined game. Knowing all traits meant something.
Research scrolls diminish all that work and allow players to buy their way into status of master crafter in result killing profession of crafter slowly bleeding it out.

When everyone is master crafter nobody needs one. You can already buy your way into ranks 50 of crafting, soon you will be able to buy your way into max researches and you can already buy your way into master stylist (all motifs known).

Sure, not everybody is interested in crafting, there will be still players who will completely ignore that part of game... until it will become necessary to do so.

Currently players already max their crafting skills just to be able to improve bound gear to higher level with minimal use of tempers. If transmogrification will be ever added into game, ability to change style of any gear piece i bet my last pair of nuts that it will make equipment bound and by oversight only the owner of equipment will be allowed to perform it. Casualification of furniture crafting also encourages maxing out crafting skills just like that.

Whats my point? There is nothing done to help dedicated crafters to provide their services, most hurtful thing is that there is no way for them to perform any operation on bound equipment (something as simple as improve other players monster helmet).

Each patch seems to be pushing the average player into direction of crafting, subtly forcing them to do it and in result indirectly destroying way of playing for other players (dedicated crafters).

The death of crafting is coming from the (i like them) 1T changes in how huge a role drops sets play in the game. the combined shift to give them all cp160 status, scaling at pickup, jewels and weapons for all the 5pc sets and the very identifiable and codified drop regimen - these make drops the more viable option for everything except convenience (waiting until you get the drop you want) and style.

The intersection of that combined with the onerous research times - that made the idea of new crafters coming in... less than it should.

To me research scolls are a move in the right direction and in keeping with the crown store policy of convenience not power.

But the key to crafting equip is to make crafting equip worthwhile.

Crafted sets need their own unique tactical and strategic components that they bring to the crafting table beyond convenience. They need to be more than just the paper plates vs the bone china of drops.

I think the key is to remove the competition between crafted and drops. There should not be a need for arguing over whether drops should be better than crafted or vice versa. They should both be needed.

THE BIG ANSWER:
IMO weapons should be taken away from all* drop sets.
This means drop sets can provide body pieces and jewels and crafted can provide body pieces and weapons.
This removes the most out of whack rng - weapon traits - and leaves the rest of the grind intact.
This means every build worth talking about would be a mix of crafted and drops and every crafter would see increased needs for their services as far as equip crafting is.

*For maelstrom and master weapons - their functions could be transferred to jewel sets (much better rng there) or they could drop tokens/mats that can be used for crafting. As an outside, maybe they could remain an exception but keep the current rng trait hunt.

SMALLER ANSWERS:
As a less drastic step, dropped weapons for sets could stay but be automatically relegated to training or prosperous.
As a less drastic step, leave drops as they are but give crafteds the ability to craft 3pc and 4pc sets dropping one or two of the 2-3-4pc bonuses from existing ones. This leaves the competition between drops and crafted intact but gives crafted the unique 3pc body/wpn and 4pc body/wpn sets to bring to the table.

But quicker research times are needed to keep bringing newer crafters into the fold... against the push away when they look at crafted vs drops.

As a crafter looking to make money... if research scrolls worry you, you are missing the forest for the twig.

I like the idea of craftable weapons...

MeaSunspear

pay 2 win means being better than those that did not pay.

Even if ppl were to buy their way through research ( which I bet would be mightily expensive), all they would get is saved time.

And since we all agree that crafting is somewhat useless ATM I really dont see, what the big deal is

Rinmaethodain

MeaSunspear wrote: »

pay 2 win means being better than those that did not pay.

Even if ppl were to buy their way through research ( which I bet would be mightily expensive), all they would get is saved time.

And since we all agree that crafting is somewhat useless ATM I really dont see, what the big deal is

When two people who start at the same time, one being 'legit' researcher while other being 'payer', from the very moment the 'payer' buys his way to 9/9 crafts he will be better than the 'legit' researcher, until the 'legit' catches up to 'payer'.

Elsonso

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

ESO is not a game for crafters, that's why crafting isnt as OP as in other games. If you want to make money, better play with AH or simply go farm.

Yeah, it did not start out this way. Somewhere along the line, some decision maker who doesn't think highly of crafting rose to become influential, and ever since then, they have been slowly tanking it.

tinbromide wrote: »

No, this is a progression that we should be encouraging. It should be easier for new players to experience everything that the base game has to offer, not harder. Make the new stuff harder. If anything, not requiring traits for furniture was a major misstep as they should have made it easier to do the old stuff instead of the new stuff.

If they wanted to do this, the scrolls would not be locked behind the the writ merchant and voucher currency. They have no interest in making it easier for new players to compress the time it takes to get to a high crafting level.

FuriousFridge

It's just crafting jeez calm down lol

FuriousFridge

MaximusDargus wrote: »

MeaSunspear wrote: »

pay 2 win means being better than those that did not pay.

Even if ppl were to buy their way through research ( which I bet would be mightily expensive), all they would get is saved time.

And since we all agree that crafting is somewhat useless ATM I really dont see, what the big deal is

When two people who start at the same time, one being 'legit' researcher while other being 'payer', from the very moment the 'payer' buys his way to 9/9 crafts he will be better than the 'legit' researcher, until the 'legit' catches up to 'payer'.

You don't gain anything from being a 9 trait crafter other than making gear. So if they buy a scroll to catch up who cares. There aren't leaderboards for crafting it isn't end game content you don't get put in the top 1% for being some prestigious crafter with 9 traits.

MeaSunspear

MaximusDargus wrote: »

MeaSunspear wrote: »

pay 2 win means being better than those that did not pay.

Even if ppl were to buy their way through research ( which I bet would be mightily expensive), all they would get is saved time.

And since we all agree that crafting is somewhat useless ATM I really dont see, what the big deal is

When two people who start at the same time, one being 'legit' researcher while other being 'payer', from the very moment the 'payer' buys his way to 9/9 crafts he will be better than the 'legit' researcher, until the 'legit' catches up to 'payer'.

even if one agrees that faster equals better in this respect, what exactly would a 'payer be better at? Better at not creating BIS sets, or better at not being able to upgrade other ppl's monster helmets? ....

Elsonso

FuriousFridge wrote: »

You don't gain anything from being a 9 trait crafter other than making gear. So if they buy a scroll to catch up who cares. There aren't leaderboards for crafting it isn't end game content you don't get put in the top 1% for being some prestigious crafter with 9 traits.

Master writs.

Tholian1

Since they seem to be opening an avenue for paying your way to being a 9 trait crafter, I suppose this means that crafted sets will never be improved compared to dropped sets.

flguy147ub17_ESO

MeaSunspear wrote: »

pay 2 win means being better than those that did not pay.

Even if ppl were to buy their way through research ( which I bet would be mightily expensive), all they would get is saved time.

And since we all agree that crafting is somewhat useless ATM I really dont see, what the big deal is

Pay 2 Win means totally different things to different people. If you play the game because you love collecting Mounts and motifs and they are all on the crown store then that is Pay 2 Win for that person. Thousands of players have zero interest in Trials so just because a Moondancer staff isnt on the crown store doesnt mean the game isnt Pay 2 Win for some players. For instance i would love to play the game and collect mounts but I CANT because that aspect of the game is pay 2 win since pretty much all the awesome mounts you have to buy with real money. You may collect endgame gear but another person doesnt care about that and collects other items that are NOT in the game by playing it but you have to buy with real money. That is Pay 2 Win.

FuriousFridge

lordrichter wrote: »

FuriousFridge wrote: »

You don't gain anything from being a 9 trait crafter other than making gear. So if they buy a scroll to catch up who cares. There aren't leaderboards for crafting it isn't end game content you don't get put in the top 1% for being some prestigious crafter with 9 traits.

Master writs.

So? For some vouchers and some pocket change gold hardly life changing.

Elsonso

FuriousFridge wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

FuriousFridge wrote: »

You don't gain anything from being a 9 trait crafter other than making gear. So if they buy a scroll to catch up who cares. There aren't leaderboards for crafting it isn't end game content you don't get put in the top 1% for being some prestigious crafter with 9 traits.

Master writs.

So? For some vouchers and some pocket change gold hardly life changing.

Master Writs are the gateway to an in-game currency.

Sigma957

There has been enough threads about crafting taking too long (27 days for eso+ 9th trait) that up and coming crafters even those that have alts to learn crafting the scrolls help alleviate the time needed. What actually is more important than traits known is all the motifs, they take the most money and time to get.

STEVIL

P2W is vapor-claim.
Its become so polymorphic and with so many different meanings it has become meaningless.

Rate of gain increase is not P2W in any meaningful sense in a game where the vast vast vast majority of actual bonuses are achievable by more playtime. You could double or triple how soon you unlock ultimates and morph them by doubling or tripling your playtime per day.

Experience scrolls and the like, or eso+ gold bonus, they just give you better real life v olay time trade offs for the same goals.

So really its more like p2l pay ti live outside game.

But by all means dont let me hinder any p2w outrages, cuz i find them very hikarious and entertaining.

Rinmaethodain

Nestor wrote: »

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Just dropping by to let you know, on PTS crown store already have special "Research Scrolls" that do not have any cooldown at all.

Welcome to "9/9 crafter" in one eventing with credit card.

I am hoping that is only for the PTS, as your right, it would be Pay to Win if they go through. Expensive though. Figure the last 5 traits on 35 items would need 175 scrolls. The first 4 traits go kind of quick, but add those in and your looking at another 140 scrolls.

I don't quite remember if template characters by default have 9/9 researched or not. If they lack trait research these crown scrolls could be on PTS so players can test crafted sets.

Wayshuba

I don't see this as that big a deal. If someone wants to run the time for 9 trait research down to 1 day, that will take roughly 24 scrolls (assuming they have the traits into research reduction and an ESO Plus membership) - so maybe about 2500 Crowns worth or $20 worth - and that is for ONE 9th level trait on ONE item. If you want to do this for all the traits on ONE item you need a total of roughly 80 scrolls or about $60 worth.

Taking this forward, you have 35 items across the three crafting cores for this giving you an investment of $2,100 to be able to catch up to someone you invested in this over time. If someone really wants to be that stupid with their money I say go ahead and let them. Heck, if people are willing to buy $15,000 non-existent digital spaceships, than this is a bargain and you actually get something for it.

However, the research scrolls still do not allow them to bypass all the motifs (though there are some of these in the crown store that do). In addition, and most importantly, you still need the items with the trait itself to begin the research. So I do not imagine their are going to be to many newbs with money slamming out Nirncrux right off the bat.

In the end, I don't think these things these are going to be used as feared. Actually, I think they are a good idea for those taking the time for other reasons. Let me give an example. You are heading away on a business trip in three days for a week but your current research ends in five days. So you buy a couple scrolls, knock off a couple of days and can get the next research cycle going before leaving on your trip.