The real issue with end-game content and how these changes will make it much worse...

argouru

Grinding.

It's a necessary evil in every rpg, but it's worse in ESO than in most games. In most games, grinding will get you xp and help you to level up your characters and gain access to new abilities and once you've reached the final level and unlocked everything, you can move on to playing other parts of the game. ESO is different in the fact that you need to keep grinding to get the gear you want even after you've maxed out your character. You find yourself playing the same dungeons/trials/arenas dozens of times, each time hoping that THIS will be the time you get that specific piece of gear you want with the traits you want them to have. Sadly, those of us who have seen the words "TRAINING" or "PROSPEROUS" attached to the 99th piece of gear you've looted know a level of pain players of most other games do not.

Grinding in ESO is extremely boring, and as most of the best gear is "Bind on Pickup", it's impossible to simply buy it from the in-game Guild Traders, forcing players to grind the same content repeatedly to get what they want and becoming more and more bored with the game the more they are forced to repeat the same things. Repeated complaints about drop rates and requests to remove the Training and Prosperous traits from end-game gear seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Players are still forced to grind endlessly in the vain hope of finally getting the specific pieces they need to finish their builds long after grinding for all other reasons has become pointless. There's many videos on youtube that demonstrate this point quite clearly, in fact.

With the upcoming changes ZoS is implementing to the game, pve end-game content will become even worse to complete both in length of time to finish as well as the difficulty of beating them. ZoS actually seems angry with us players, apparently, that end-game grinding ISN'T TAKING LONG ENOUGH! Rather than listen to the player and work to help make end-game grinding easier, they are making it even harder and that is what is killing the game more than anything else. Players grow bored of doing the same things over and over again and eventually lose interest in the game and either take a break from playing, or leave the game entirely.

I write this not as an angry protest to ZoS, but as a desperate plea for them to FINALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS! Make the game MORE fun, not less. Make end-game grinding easier so players can move on to all the PVP content you want them to play. You don't have to bow down to our every whim, naturally, but please listen to what we are begging of you and take it into serious consideration, then make changes to help players get through the grinding faster so they don't grow bored and leave the game.

From a loyal player...

Please listen and do not dismiss us the way many of us feel is happening.

TheStealthDude

The problem with the grind isn't due to the changes they are making, though. The problem is (and has been) with the way the loot tables are structured. The loot needs to be spread out more than it currently is. We also need traits to be better balanced, especially weapon traits.

idk

TheStealthDude wrote: »

The problem with the grind isn't due to the changes they are making, though. The problem is (and has been) with the way the loot tables are structured. The loot needs to be spread out more than it currently is. We also need traits to be better balanced, especially weapon traits.

Yes, the loot tables are the issue. An issue Zos has spoken to in the past two months as one area they're considering some changes. They spoke of this review while talking about Morrowind but it seems to have been put on the back burner.

drake88131

Agree with OP 100%. ZOS should've never implemented BOP. ZOS could also learn a thing or two from playing Saints Row IV. Games are supposed to be fun and not a pointless grind. ZOS should listen to OP. Not even sure why they care if we all go out and buy the gear from guild traders. Are they sadists?

argouru

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

TheStealthDude wrote: »

The problem with the grind isn't due to the changes they are making, though. The problem is (and has been) with the way the loot tables are structured. The loot needs to be spread out more than it currently is. We also need traits to be better balanced, especially weapon traits.

Yes, the loot tables are the issue. An issue Zos has spoken to in the past two months as one area they're considering some changes. They spoke of this review while talking about Morrowind but it seems to have been put on the back burner.

Agreed, but the changes will make an already bad problem even worse. Bad as loot drops and undaunted rewards are, at least players were able to get through the content to get them with moderate time and difficulty. The changes will only make them harder and longer to finish.

Faulgor

Still think this would be a non-problem if we had the ability to change the traits on our gear through crafting.
Because that's what 99% of the grinding is about, finding the right trait on the right piece of gear.

Subversus

Spot on, OP. When I first read the new changes, the thing that first came to mind was how on earth am I supposed to continue grinding vMA? I'm sitting on well over 500 runs completed, and average about 40-50 minutes per run. With the overall damage nerf due to the need to run more sustain sets I can't even imagine how much longer it will take. The grind needs to be changed drastically if this is the route the game will take in the future.

LiquidPony

argouru wrote: »

Grinding.

It's a necessary evil in every rpg, but it's worse in ESO than in most games. In most games, grinding will get you xp and help you to level up your characters and gain access to new abilities and once you've reached the final level and unlocked everything, you can move on to playing other parts of the game. ESO is different in the fact that you need to keep grinding to get the gear you want even after you've maxed out your character. You find yourself playing the same dungeons/trials/arenas dozens of times, each time hoping that THIS will be the time you get that specific piece of gear you want with the traits you want them to have. Sadly, those of us who have seen the words "TRAINING" or "PROSPEROUS" attached to the 99th piece of gear you've looted know a level of pain players of most other games do not.

Grinding in ESO is extremely boring, and as most of the best gear is "Bind on Pickup", it's impossible to simply buy it from the in-game Guild Traders, forcing players to grind the same content repeatedly to get what they want and becoming more and more bored with the game the more they are forced to repeat the same things. Repeated complaints about drop rates and requests to remove the Training and Prosperous traits from end-game gear seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Players are still forced to grind endlessly in the vain hope of finally getting the specific pieces they need to finish their builds long after grinding for all other reasons has become pointless. There's many videos on youtube that demonstrate this point quite clearly, in fact.

With the upcoming changes ZoS is implementing to the game, pve end-game content will become even worse to complete both in length of time to finish as well as the difficulty of beating them. ZoS actually seems angry with us players, apparently, that end-game grinding ISN'T TAKING LONG ENOUGH! Rather than listen to the player and work to help make end-game grinding easier, they are making it even harder and that is what is killing the game more than anything else. Players grow bored of doing the same things over and over again and eventually lose interest in the game and either take a break from playing, or leave the game entirely.

I write this not as an angry protest to ZoS, but as a desperate plea for them to FINALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS! Make the game MORE fun, not less. Make end-game grinding easier so players can move on to all the PVP content you want them to play. You don't have to bow down to our every whim, naturally, but please listen to what we are begging of you and take it into serious consideration, then make changes to help players get through the grinding faster so they don't grow bored and leave the game.

From a loyal player...

Please listen and do not dismiss us the way many of us feel is happening.

@argouru you haven't actually tested anything on the PTS, right? So you don't really know if vet dungeons or other existing end-game content is going to be harder to complete?

No offense intended, but this seems like patch note hand-wringing, not PTS feedback.

argouru

LiquidPony wrote: »

argouru wrote: »

Grinding.

It's a necessary evil in every rpg, but it's worse in ESO than in most games. In most games, grinding will get you xp and help you to level up your characters and gain access to new abilities and once you've reached the final level and unlocked everything, you can move on to playing other parts of the game. ESO is different in the fact that you need to keep grinding to get the gear you want even after you've maxed out your character. You find yourself playing the same dungeons/trials/arenas dozens of times, each time hoping that THIS will be the time you get that specific piece of gear you want with the traits you want them to have. Sadly, those of us who have seen the words "TRAINING" or "PROSPEROUS" attached to the 99th piece of gear you've looted know a level of pain players of most other games do not.

Grinding in ESO is extremely boring, and as most of the best gear is "Bind on Pickup", it's impossible to simply buy it from the in-game Guild Traders, forcing players to grind the same content repeatedly to get what they want and becoming more and more bored with the game the more they are forced to repeat the same things. Repeated complaints about drop rates and requests to remove the Training and Prosperous traits from end-game gear seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Players are still forced to grind endlessly in the vain hope of finally getting the specific pieces they need to finish their builds long after grinding for all other reasons has become pointless. There's many videos on youtube that demonstrate this point quite clearly, in fact.

With the upcoming changes ZoS is implementing to the game, pve end-game content will become even worse to complete both in length of time to finish as well as the difficulty of beating them. ZoS actually seems angry with us players, apparently, that end-game grinding ISN'T TAKING LONG ENOUGH! Rather than listen to the player and work to help make end-game grinding easier, they are making it even harder and that is what is killing the game more than anything else. Players grow bored of doing the same things over and over again and eventually lose interest in the game and either take a break from playing, or leave the game entirely.

I write this not as an angry protest to ZoS, but as a desperate plea for them to FINALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS! Make the game MORE fun, not less. Make end-game grinding easier so players can move on to all the PVP content you want them to play. You don't have to bow down to our every whim, naturally, but please listen to what we are begging of you and take it into serious consideration, then make changes to help players get through the grinding faster so they don't grow bored and leave the game.

From a loyal player...

Please listen and do not dismiss us the way many of us feel is happening.

@argouru you haven't actually tested anything on the PTS, right? So you don't really know if vet dungeons or other existing end-game content is going to be harder to complete?

No offense intended, but this seems like patch note hand-wringing, not PTS feedback.

I'm basing this off of what all I have heard so far and dwelling on the implications of it all.

theamazingx

LiquidPony wrote: »

argouru wrote: »

Grinding.

It's a necessary evil in every rpg, but it's worse in ESO than in most games. In most games, grinding will get you xp and help you to level up your characters and gain access to new abilities and once you've reached the final level and unlocked everything, you can move on to playing other parts of the game. ESO is different in the fact that you need to keep grinding to get the gear you want even after you've maxed out your character. You find yourself playing the same dungeons/trials/arenas dozens of times, each time hoping that THIS will be the time you get that specific piece of gear you want with the traits you want them to have. Sadly, those of us who have seen the words "TRAINING" or "PROSPEROUS" attached to the 99th piece of gear you've looted know a level of pain players of most other games do not.

Grinding in ESO is extremely boring, and as most of the best gear is "Bind on Pickup", it's impossible to simply buy it from the in-game Guild Traders, forcing players to grind the same content repeatedly to get what they want and becoming more and more bored with the game the more they are forced to repeat the same things. Repeated complaints about drop rates and requests to remove the Training and Prosperous traits from end-game gear seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Players are still forced to grind endlessly in the vain hope of finally getting the specific pieces they need to finish their builds long after grinding for all other reasons has become pointless. There's many videos on youtube that demonstrate this point quite clearly, in fact.

With the upcoming changes ZoS is implementing to the game, pve end-game content will become even worse to complete both in length of time to finish as well as the difficulty of beating them. ZoS actually seems angry with us players, apparently, that end-game grinding ISN'T TAKING LONG ENOUGH! Rather than listen to the player and work to help make end-game grinding easier, they are making it even harder and that is what is killing the game more than anything else. Players grow bored of doing the same things over and over again and eventually lose interest in the game and either take a break from playing, or leave the game entirely.

I write this not as an angry protest to ZoS, but as a desperate plea for them to FINALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS! Make the game MORE fun, not less. Make end-game grinding easier so players can move on to all the PVP content you want them to play. You don't have to bow down to our every whim, naturally, but please listen to what we are begging of you and take it into serious consideration, then make changes to help players get through the grinding faster so they don't grow bored and leave the game.

From a loyal player...

Please listen and do not dismiss us the way many of us feel is happening.

@argouru you haven't actually tested anything on the PTS, right? So you don't really know if vet dungeons or other existing end-game content is going to be harder to complete?

No offense intended, but this seems like patch note hand-wringing, not PTS feedback.

Nerfs to dps via sustain changes, nerfs to heals via sustain changes and templar nerfs, nerfs to tanks via heavy armor nerfs, lowered blockcost cd, and shard/orb homogenization. Warrior hm will be harder to tank, Mage hm will be harder to burn, Rakkhat hm will be harder to heal. There is no question that the content will be harder, and the conpletion times will therefore be longer. Difficulty isn't an inherent problem; many welcome the challenge. But it will undoubtedly exacerbate the gear grind. Don't need this contrarian nonsense.

LiquidPony

theamazingx wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

argouru wrote: »

Grinding.

It's a necessary evil in every rpg, but it's worse in ESO than in most games. In most games, grinding will get you xp and help you to level up your characters and gain access to new abilities and once you've reached the final level and unlocked everything, you can move on to playing other parts of the game. ESO is different in the fact that you need to keep grinding to get the gear you want even after you've maxed out your character. You find yourself playing the same dungeons/trials/arenas dozens of times, each time hoping that THIS will be the time you get that specific piece of gear you want with the traits you want them to have. Sadly, those of us who have seen the words "TRAINING" or "PROSPEROUS" attached to the 99th piece of gear you've looted know a level of pain players of most other games do not.

Grinding in ESO is extremely boring, and as most of the best gear is "Bind on Pickup", it's impossible to simply buy it from the in-game Guild Traders, forcing players to grind the same content repeatedly to get what they want and becoming more and more bored with the game the more they are forced to repeat the same things. Repeated complaints about drop rates and requests to remove the Training and Prosperous traits from end-game gear seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Players are still forced to grind endlessly in the vain hope of finally getting the specific pieces they need to finish their builds long after grinding for all other reasons has become pointless. There's many videos on youtube that demonstrate this point quite clearly, in fact.

With the upcoming changes ZoS is implementing to the game, pve end-game content will become even worse to complete both in length of time to finish as well as the difficulty of beating them. ZoS actually seems angry with us players, apparently, that end-game grinding ISN'T TAKING LONG ENOUGH! Rather than listen to the player and work to help make end-game grinding easier, they are making it even harder and that is what is killing the game more than anything else. Players grow bored of doing the same things over and over again and eventually lose interest in the game and either take a break from playing, or leave the game entirely.

I write this not as an angry protest to ZoS, but as a desperate plea for them to FINALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS! Make the game MORE fun, not less. Make end-game grinding easier so players can move on to all the PVP content you want them to play. You don't have to bow down to our every whim, naturally, but please listen to what we are begging of you and take it into serious consideration, then make changes to help players get through the grinding faster so they don't grow bored and leave the game.

From a loyal player...

Please listen and do not dismiss us the way many of us feel is happening.

@argouru you haven't actually tested anything on the PTS, right? So you don't really know if vet dungeons or other existing end-game content is going to be harder to complete?

No offense intended, but this seems like patch note hand-wringing, not PTS feedback.

Nerfs to dps via sustain changes, nerfs to heals via sustain changes and templar nerfs, nerfs to tanks via heavy armor nerfs, lowered blockcost cd, and shard/orb homogenization. Warrior hm will be harder to tank, Mage hm will be harder to burn, Rakkhat hm will be harder to heal. There is no question that the content will be harder, and the conpletion times will therefore be longer. Difficulty isn't an inherent problem; many welcome the challenge. But it will undoubtedly exacerbate the gear grind. Don't need this contrarian nonsense.

@theamazingx

I disagree. I think there is a question as to whether or not the content will be "harder," at least in terms of whether the difficulty will have a significant effect on the gear grind. As I said, OP is just making assumptions about the difficulty of the content based on patch notes and hearsay.

I guess I just thought that the PTS forum was for actual PTS feedback, not whining and speculation.

But I'm sorry, I didn't know that we weren't allowed to disagree with each other here.

Dyride

It is by design. I'm sure some marketing flunky has shown you are more likely to buy from the Crown if you are bored to tears grinding sets.

theamazingx

LiquidPony wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

argouru wrote: »

Grinding.

It's a necessary evil in every rpg, but it's worse in ESO than in most games. In most games, grinding will get you xp and help you to level up your characters and gain access to new abilities and once you've reached the final level and unlocked everything, you can move on to playing other parts of the game. ESO is different in the fact that you need to keep grinding to get the gear you want even after you've maxed out your character. You find yourself playing the same dungeons/trials/arenas dozens of times, each time hoping that THIS will be the time you get that specific piece of gear you want with the traits you want them to have. Sadly, those of us who have seen the words "TRAINING" or "PROSPEROUS" attached to the 99th piece of gear you've looted know a level of pain players of most other games do not.

Grinding in ESO is extremely boring, and as most of the best gear is "Bind on Pickup", it's impossible to simply buy it from the in-game Guild Traders, forcing players to grind the same content repeatedly to get what they want and becoming more and more bored with the game the more they are forced to repeat the same things. Repeated complaints about drop rates and requests to remove the Training and Prosperous traits from end-game gear seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Players are still forced to grind endlessly in the vain hope of finally getting the specific pieces they need to finish their builds long after grinding for all other reasons has become pointless. There's many videos on youtube that demonstrate this point quite clearly, in fact.

With the upcoming changes ZoS is implementing to the game, pve end-game content will become even worse to complete both in length of time to finish as well as the difficulty of beating them. ZoS actually seems angry with us players, apparently, that end-game grinding ISN'T TAKING LONG ENOUGH! Rather than listen to the player and work to help make end-game grinding easier, they are making it even harder and that is what is killing the game more than anything else. Players grow bored of doing the same things over and over again and eventually lose interest in the game and either take a break from playing, or leave the game entirely.

I write this not as an angry protest to ZoS, but as a desperate plea for them to FINALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS! Make the game MORE fun, not less. Make end-game grinding easier so players can move on to all the PVP content you want them to play. You don't have to bow down to our every whim, naturally, but please listen to what we are begging of you and take it into serious consideration, then make changes to help players get through the grinding faster so they don't grow bored and leave the game.

From a loyal player...

Please listen and do not dismiss us the way many of us feel is happening.

@argouru you haven't actually tested anything on the PTS, right? So you don't really know if vet dungeons or other existing end-game content is going to be harder to complete?

No offense intended, but this seems like patch note hand-wringing, not PTS feedback.

Nerfs to dps via sustain changes, nerfs to heals via sustain changes and templar nerfs, nerfs to tanks via heavy armor nerfs, lowered blockcost cd, and shard/orb homogenization. Warrior hm will be harder to tank, Mage hm will be harder to burn, Rakkhat hm will be harder to heal. There is no question that the content will be harder, and the conpletion times will therefore be longer. Difficulty isn't an inherent problem; many welcome the challenge. But it will undoubtedly exacerbate the gear grind. Don't need this contrarian nonsense.

@theamazingx

I disagree. I think there is a question as to whether or not the content will be "harder," at least in terms of whether the difficulty will have a significant effect on the gear grind. As I said, OP is just making assumptions about the difficulty of the content based on patch notes and hearsay.

I guess I just thought that the PTS forum was for actual PTS feedback, not whining and speculation.

But I'm sorry, I didn't know that we weren't allowed to disagree with each other here.

It's not "whining and speculation", it's the truth coming from all sources. The dps ceiling was decreased for everyone on an individual level. Such was ZoS's stated goal. Compound that with tanks and healers having less opportunity to buff them (alkosh, powerful assault, and potentially spc now dead), and you have much longer fights. Regardless of how raiders adapt to complete and compete, as we already have started to do, everything down to pugging for a monster helm grind will take even longer than it does now.

argouru

theamazingx wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

theamazingx wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

argouru wrote: »

Grinding.

It's a necessary evil in every rpg, but it's worse in ESO than in most games. In most games, grinding will get you xp and help you to level up your characters and gain access to new abilities and once you've reached the final level and unlocked everything, you can move on to playing other parts of the game. ESO is different in the fact that you need to keep grinding to get the gear you want even after you've maxed out your character. You find yourself playing the same dungeons/trials/arenas dozens of times, each time hoping that THIS will be the time you get that specific piece of gear you want with the traits you want them to have. Sadly, those of us who have seen the words "TRAINING" or "PROSPEROUS" attached to the 99th piece of gear you've looted know a level of pain players of most other games do not.

Grinding in ESO is extremely boring, and as most of the best gear is "Bind on Pickup", it's impossible to simply buy it from the in-game Guild Traders, forcing players to grind the same content repeatedly to get what they want and becoming more and more bored with the game the more they are forced to repeat the same things. Repeated complaints about drop rates and requests to remove the Training and Prosperous traits from end-game gear seem to have fallen on deaf ears. Players are still forced to grind endlessly in the vain hope of finally getting the specific pieces they need to finish their builds long after grinding for all other reasons has become pointless. There's many videos on youtube that demonstrate this point quite clearly, in fact.

With the upcoming changes ZoS is implementing to the game, pve end-game content will become even worse to complete both in length of time to finish as well as the difficulty of beating them. ZoS actually seems angry with us players, apparently, that end-game grinding ISN'T TAKING LONG ENOUGH! Rather than listen to the player and work to help make end-game grinding easier, they are making it even harder and that is what is killing the game more than anything else. Players grow bored of doing the same things over and over again and eventually lose interest in the game and either take a break from playing, or leave the game entirely.

I write this not as an angry protest to ZoS, but as a desperate plea for them to FINALLY LISTEN TO THE PLAYERS! Make the game MORE fun, not less. Make end-game grinding easier so players can move on to all the PVP content you want them to play. You don't have to bow down to our every whim, naturally, but please listen to what we are begging of you and take it into serious consideration, then make changes to help players get through the grinding faster so they don't grow bored and leave the game.

From a loyal player...

Please listen and do not dismiss us the way many of us feel is happening.

@argouru you haven't actually tested anything on the PTS, right? So you don't really know if vet dungeons or other existing end-game content is going to be harder to complete?

No offense intended, but this seems like patch note hand-wringing, not PTS feedback.

Nerfs to dps via sustain changes, nerfs to heals via sustain changes and templar nerfs, nerfs to tanks via heavy armor nerfs, lowered blockcost cd, and shard/orb homogenization. Warrior hm will be harder to tank, Mage hm will be harder to burn, Rakkhat hm will be harder to heal. There is no question that the content will be harder, and the conpletion times will therefore be longer. Difficulty isn't an inherent problem; many welcome the challenge. But it will undoubtedly exacerbate the gear grind. Don't need this contrarian nonsense.

@theamazingx

I disagree. I think there is a question as to whether or not the content will be "harder," at least in terms of whether the difficulty will have a significant effect on the gear grind. As I said, OP is just making assumptions about the difficulty of the content based on patch notes and hearsay.

I guess I just thought that the PTS forum was for actual PTS feedback, not whining and speculation.

But I'm sorry, I didn't know that we weren't allowed to disagree with each other here.

It's not "whining and speculation", it's the truth coming from all sources. The dps ceiling was decreased for everyone on an individual level. Such was ZoS's stated goal. Compound that with tanks and healers having less opportunity to buff them (alkosh, powerful assault, and potentially spc now dead), and you have much longer fights. Regardless of how raiders adapt to complete and compete, as we already have started to do, everything down to pugging for a monster helm grind will take even longer than it does now.

Exactly. I'm not basing this off of one or two sources, but off of the comments made by multiple players who have shared their concerns on here. Fights against bosses will become longer and because of that, players will be completing less content per gaming session than they were before, meaning less loot per session and less chances to get the gear they're hunting for. With the underlying issue of the priorities on drop rates per armor grade (light/medium/heavy) as well as which trait each piece of loot is given by the loot generating system not being addressed, grinding will become slower and even more tedious than it was. THAT is my point. It's not whining, it's facts that other players are already proving to be true.