Update 3.0 Resource Management, the GOOD,THE BAD and the VERY BAD, Gill's Video

Sigma957

@Gilliamtherogue Just watched your video and was very impressed in the way you presented it so we can all understand the implication of these massive changes to cost reduction and resource management and what it means to us solo and group players.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel need to watch as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK5D32QGsy0

DragonBound

Sigma957 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue Just watched your video and was very impressed in the way you presented it so we can all understand the implication of these massive changes to cost reduction and resource management and what it means to us solo and group players.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel need to watch as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK5D32QGsy0

Yep I prefer this guy over all the others he really knows his stuff.

Capt_Morgan

This seriously does need to stay at the top. The nuance and detail he goes into is par none. Definitely the video you want to watch.

Capt_Morgan

Scroll to like minute 56 for the lazy.. Now I understand the whole NDA thing.

Publius_Scipio

He is one of the most knowledgeable ESO players out there that isn't as widely known as some others.

And in a not fake news story, I am happy to say Gilliam and I are on each others friends list.

Edit: Wow, I only saw a portion of the video and I can confirm Gilliam is Akatosh.

Ashtaris

After watching Gill's video, I really believe he should be the lead combat developer for ZOS instead of some of their current developers. He nailed it.

Shader_Shibes

Ashtaris wrote: »

After watching Gill's video, I really believe he should be the lead combat developer for ZOS instead of some of their current developers. He nailed it.

Yeh, he comes across as incredibly knowledgeable about the game, and just very intelligent in general, unlike the existing devs, who seem a bit ***.

Rohamad_Ali

Absolutely . I was just saying in the other thread . He hit every issue I've ran into and addressed every concern in a positive way . Keep it focused for ZoS .

wimhwimladimf

He's right in most points, except pvp. If you can burn someone down within 10-15sec, even new mp/stamina cost wont change anything. It will affect only big fights and fights against classes with lot's of phys/spell resist or good heals.

Armitas

So...Half a year ago they massively buffed the health of bosses and trash mobs and increased the armor of trash mobs to compensate for peoples high dps. Then they nerfed procs sets (no complaints) and now they nerf sustain which is going to be a big nerf to dps. Are they leaving the boss health the same because that might be a huge problem considering what I'm seeing so far in Gilliam's video.

I would also say, in regards to the video, the reason they dump all of this at once is because they either don't want to, or can't, work on these things in a progressive manner and instead schedule regular catch ups on the calendar rather than having a system of diligent maintenance and care-taking. I think it's a terrible practice and doesn't line up with the patience or endurance of the players.

Another thing Gilliam mentions is that we will overcome it. But with major thinkers like Deltia leaving it's going to take a lot longer for build information to disseminate. That is going to leave a lot of people frustrated and overwhelmed for a long time. It's a really bad situation.

t3hdubzy

Armitas wrote: »

So...Half a year ago they massively buffed the health of bosses and trash mobs and increased the armor of trash mobs to compensate for peoples high dps. Then they nerfed procs sets (no complaints) and now they nerf sustain which is going to be a big nerf to dps. Are they leaving the boss health the same because that might be a huge problem considering what I'm seeing so far in Gilliam's video.

Believe they are staying the same. I remeber when this first happened it made fights super boring and long. The difficulty was not increased for most if not all dungeons. Trials where there are rage timers would be dependent on having top dps. Specifically i have some low to moderate sleeping issues and fell asleep several times during final bosses.

I believe we will see the same result here where the fights are now just longer and boring due to the lower dps. This will turn me off even more to pve as a pvp player.

Id like dungeons to be more difficulty because of mechanics or maneuvering, like planar inhibitor in wgt, but i dont want a boss that just takes 10min to kill because of health and i never have to move.

Aquanova

Sigma957 wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue Just watched your video and was very impressed in the way you presented it so we can all understand the implication of these massive changes to cost reduction and resource management and what it means to us solo and group players.
@ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel need to watch as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fK5D32QGsy0

Bump!

Sydria

Just watched the whole video and I have to agree:

The intentions of the changes were good (bring down ceiling - raise floor) but they fail to deliver that.

Explanations were very well given and I hope it reaches the devs.

Armitas

t3hdubzy wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

So...Half a year ago they massively buffed the health of bosses and trash mobs and increased the armor of trash mobs to compensate for peoples high dps. Then they nerfed procs sets (no complaints) and now they nerf sustain which is going to be a big nerf to dps. Are they leaving the boss health the same because that might be a huge problem considering what I'm seeing so far in Gilliam's video.

Specifically i have some low to moderate sleeping issues and fell asleep several times during final bosses.

Rofl I hear that. Can you imagine having to farm gear sets through now even longer dungeons. Just farming amberplasm alone for a s/b killed all of the love and enjoyment I had for the game. If that place took any longer I wouldn't even have enough playtime to call myself a casual.

Dyride

Really liked this video and continue to learn things about the game due to Gilliam. I like his alternative Siphoning Attacks.

DragonBound

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Absolutely . I was just saying in the other thread . He hit every issue I've ran into and addressed every concern in a positive way . Keep it focused for ZoS .

If you watch to the end of the video he explains he still disagrees with the changes and the communication as the changes are indeed negative.

Dixa

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

He's right in most points, except pvp. If you can burn someone down within 10-15sec, even new mp/stamina cost wont change anything. It will affect only big fights and fights against classes with lot's of phys/spell resist or good heals.

2h stam users still drop people in 2-3 hits on the pts.

sustain is not something that affects pvp except for the ability for a single templar to keep two people alive forever against a zerg. that had to be addressed. THAT was poor pvp design in DAOC and it's poor pvp design here.

Hamburglarjones

Great explanation as always. PvE is going to be less rewarding/fun. Heavy attack lightning builds will be meta which goes against the "fast paced" combat they claim to want.

aeowulf

very good video, I rarely watch anything that long without skipping chunks. mega informative.

DHale

DragonBound wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Absolutely . I was just saying in the other thread . He hit every issue I've ran into and addressed every concern in a positive way . Keep it focused for ZoS .

If you watch to the end of the video he explains he still disagrees with the changes and the communication as the changes are indeed negative.

I watched the video many tines. He told the truth... that is never negative. You cannot polish a t@@d.

DragonBound

DHale wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Absolutely . I was just saying in the other thread . He hit every issue I've ran into and addressed every concern in a positive way . Keep it focused for ZoS .

If you watch to the end of the video he explains he still disagrees with the changes and the communication as the changes are indeed negative.

I watched the video many tines. He told the truth... that is never negative. You cannot polish a t@@d.

Ummm clearly you did not he clearly expresses how the allot of the changes are bad stop lying through your teeth.

kewl

The most salient point @Gilliamtherogue makes is to control your variables. Any good scientist makes gradual changes by manipulating one variable to compare against a control and/or hypothetical end state. There are so many complex interactions between game systems, this quantity of change will result in data that is difficult to accurately interpret.

e.gamemarkb14_ESO

This is what real game developers need, along with a basic proficiency exam requiring developers to test their knowledge about how to create a real testing environment 101. Frankly several members of ZOS should be cut loose and they should hire some of the top talent here in these forums who actually understand their game better than they do.

Tholian1

Great breakdown of the patch notes.

So it sounds like they lowered the floor instead of raising it for the solo PvE player.

Derra

Tholian1 wrote: »

Great breakdown of the patch notes.

So it sounds like they lowered the floor instead of raising it for the solo PvE player.

Base mechanic nerfs will always have that effect. Nerfing everything and everyone the same will have a bigger effect on players making more mistakes.

They lower the ceiling while accidentally creating a cesspool at the bottom.

Castielle

That video nailed it. I agree completely!

Cas

LiquidPony

I'm no Gilliam, but rather than just jumping on the "this patch sucks!" bandwagon, I hopped on the PTS to do some testing for my main (stamblade).

Now, unfortunately we're missing necessary gear sets on Template characters (VO/IA/Moondancer/Alkosh/Agility/Willpower) and Racial skills to do really great testing, but after getting all of the necessary passives unlocked, leveling alchemy and provisioning, I hit up a target skeleton to do some quick tests.

With basically the same rotation I use on live (tweaked slightly because of the Caltrops changes), I'm able to get a 3m target skeleton down about 25% before I run out of resources. On live, I can easily burn a 3m target skeleton without ever coming near running out of stamina (self-buffed, throwing Reaper's Mark, no ultimate).

I tried modifying the rotation to fit in heavy attacks, but still using Rapid Strikes to empower Trap/Rending Slashes/Poison Injection ... but that still doesn't work. The only way I was able to take down the target skeleton without exhausting my stamina was via a pure DW heavy attack rotation (e.g., LA/Caltrops/LA/Endless Hail/LA/Poison Injection/HA/Rearming Trap/HA/Rending Slashes/HA/HA ... repeat). The modified rotation with Rapid Strikes was the same as above except the first and last HA were replaced with Rending Slashes to empower the DoTs, but it didn't seem viable as I was quickly burning through my stamina without the extra HAs.

The secondary kick in the nuts on this is that now my Maelstrom daggers/axes, which I've spent hundreds and hundreds of hours farming, have been made completely useless if I can't use Rapid Strikes.

I have a few more tweaks to do to my template NB and then I should be able to give a better comparison between what I see on live and what I see on PTS.

But as of right now, I can't disagree with anything Gilliam said. He's absolutely spot-on. I can only hope that this first pass of PTS changes was just to set a baseline and that we'll see either a nerf of some of the nerfs, or perhaps some other changes that will steer this back in the right direction.

Nuntjako

Excellent video. Listen to the man ZOS!

Mihael

I

Dixa wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

He's right in most points, except pvp. If you can burn someone down within 10-15sec, even new mp/stamina cost wont change anything. It will affect only big fights and fights against classes with lot's of phys/spell resist or good heals.

2h stam users still drop people in 2-3 hits on the pts.

sustain is not something that affects pvp except for the ability for a single templar to keep two people alive forever against a zerg. that had to be addressed. THAT was poor pvp design in DAOC and it's poor pvp design here.

It also affects the ability of solo play. Not everyone likes running around in big groups and the sustain nerfs hurt the solo player way more than your average player in a big group spamming one ability.

And most decent players can not be dropped in 2 to 3 hits

Wrecking_Gorilla

Glad he did it without bis and outside a group setting. This accurately simulates what the average player will go through. Then you have to account for missed weaves and players who might not have the best rotation, gear, and pots at their disposal. How can you account for all of this? Lack of resources might not hurt the elite players as bad as it will the new and struggling players. Zos needs seriously look this over. Thanks for the great work and video!

wimhwimladimf

Hopefully we get Devs attention.