No wonder it's called TROLL king

Quantum_V

On a serious note though, we need to discuss this.

Taking fair advantage of the fact that new patch is coming out and balance changes are hitting PvP like a Arnold Schwarzenegger on steroids, it might be an appropriate time to propose a change to this set, specially considering that the devs seem to be working hard in making ESO a more skilled based game... (I think).

Morrowind coming hot and everyone excited for the new changes, but hey, Zenimax, while we're at it, pummeling down Troll King with that nerf hammer might prove to be a good start to balancing the game. We know it was nerfed so it actually procs at 50%, but honestly, that isn't even a change comparing that to other elements that received the nerf treatment.

So why nerf it? Simple: it's literally carrying people. No strugle, no thought, no experience, just a simple 2 piece set and you're ready to become a near immortal ugly faced demon harder to kill than Bell Gargoyle from Dark Souls 3.

Proposed changes:

• Decrease the buff it gives you, like the amount of health regen it gives you,
• Bring down the timer that it actively buffs you
• Make it proc at like 20% ( which I don't think it's that effective, but oh well, it's a nerf

leave your thoughts below!

Waffennacht

Please no? Pirate skele is just as good. Proc dmg sets do a huge amount of carrying for offensive builds still. Leave TK alone, at least until after it changes

D0ntevenL1ft

All of that complaining and not one word about pirate skeleton being dropped down by 1%? Now that stam has a 30% increase in cost for our heals ill most likely be moving to troll king to muster up any survivability i still can.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

All of that complaining and not one word about pirate skeleton being dropped down by 1%? Now that stam has a 30% increase in cost for our heals ill most likely be moving to troll king to muster up any survivability i still can.

*40-42%, depending on the amount of medium armor you had on, 5% general increase to Stam ablitys and the reduction of the passive cost reduction from armor from 3% to 2% per piece.

arkansas_ESO

I'd rather see it made a flat value that doesn't scale with health regen bonuses (racials, class passives, potion buffs, heavy armor passives, etc.) and lowered to 35-40% proc chance. Should probably nerf Pirate Skeleton as well.

raasdal

I agree the base regen it gives, is simply too much. It gives about 12 set item bonuses worth of health regen. Compare that to other sets with preset requirements, and it seema that 1000 regen, or about 8 bonuses would be a good spot.

With that being said, the outrage is way out of proportion. 90% of the time something is being blamed on troll king, troll king is not really the problem. Like when everyone thinks that major mending is the single cause of a templar going from 10% to 100% in a single BoL. People just tend to blaim what they can see, and ignore everything else.

Izaki

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

I'd rather see it made a flat value that doesn't scale with health regen bonuses (racials, class passives, potion buffs, heavy armor passives, etc.) and lowered to 35-40% proc chance. Should probably definitely nerf Pirate Skeleton as well.

^ Fixed that. Pirate Skeleton is what's making Sorc shields beyond OP. Without it, Sorcs are fine.

Arthg

I for one would like to see more monster sets like TK.

TK is one of the only monster sets that's not RNG-based and that actually requires you to do something (monitoring and healing).

Only active gameplay makes it efficient, so I'd say that if it does "carry" players, these players at least know what they're doing to some extent, and deserve the buff.

Should the nerf hammer hit TK, I'm hoping for a weak thud rather than than a loud stomp.

psychotic13

Waffennacht wrote: »

Please no? Pirate skele is just as good. Proc dmg sets do a huge amount of carrying for offensive builds still. Leave TK alone, at least until after it changes

This, leave my monster set alone!

Methariorn

Pirete Skel just need to be fixed for shields damage mitigation and proc on shields: it's a bugged set. Troll King is working as intended and it's a bit too powerfull imho

Waffennacht

Methariorn wrote: »

Pirete Skel just need to be fixed for shields damage mitigation and proc on shields: it's a bugged set. Troll King is working as intended and it's a bit too powerfull imho

It's not bugged, it provides major protection (GUESS WHAT? The exact same buff the insanely cheap-long-lasting resto ult)

You can use poisons to get it, you can use other armor sets too.

Many buffs (like UNDEATH) prevent damage done to shields.

It is how those buffs work, it's not bugged.

rimmidimdim

Troll King, grothdar, selenes, pirate Skelly, blah blah blah. They are all powerful. They are monster sets. What you want? Look just take monster sets out of PvP maybe. But do you need to Nerf one cause you do not like it? Others might like it and hate others. It's a never ending debate. Then the pve'rs will scream bloody murder and they are right to do so.

Speed_Kills

I agree to a reduction in the health recovery it provides. Even at 900-1000 health recov it would be desirable.

Health recov procs every 2s so a 10s timer provides 5-6 troll king health recov. Usually, the first 2 procs are used to top off health, the next 2 allow you to turn the fight around, and by the last 1-2 you have complete control. However, in many of my fights, I am in control the entire time, troll king allows me to absolutely dominate fights without concern of getting bursted down (as long as I click rally/critsurge every 30s). This being said, the weakness of troll king is burst. Troll king will not save you from players built for burst, you will have to use other damage mitigation mechanics to survive.

NBrookus

IMO, Troll King's healing should be weaker than Malubeth's because TK always procs, whereas Malubeth only has a chance to proc and has counterplay to prevent full heal. Right now Troll King is far stronger and there's no counterplay against it.

Troll King is stupidly strong on Stam sorcs, and probably will continue to be. It really carries players and allows them to make a lot of mistakes without consequence. Their opponent has to run a high burst build -- but the TK wearer can be high burst AND have the heals.

On other stam classes, with the cost increase of vigor, Troll King might no longer be the huge crutch it is now. Or so I hope. If every stam player can't afford 100% uptime on vigor, that leaves room to either fight a resource war or CC and burst before they can proc the set.

Quantum_V

Well, it seems we're pretty enthusiastic about the topic. Just to clarify some stuff, while I strongly believe any form of RNG or element that allows a player to survive/deal damage without actually having to take into consideration the situation in the fight (aka promoting low-skilled gameplay) should entirely be removed from the game - I do know that zenimax will most likely not remove any of these sets from the game or PvP.

With that being said, I'm proposing changes to Troll King 'cause it was the set that came to mind when I was making this thread, I can agree 100% skelly should be nerfed too, but that statement is not mutually exclusive to my belief that TK has to go aswell.

Now about some of the posts themselves:

D0ntevenL1ft wrote: »

All of that complaining and not one word about pirate skeleton being dropped down by 1%? Now that stam has a 30% increase in cost for our heals ill most likely be moving to troll king to muster up any survivability i still can.

The reason Vigor was nerfed sustain wise it's because you could literally have it up 100% of the time, and use this skill without much thought process (aka not really knowing what you're doing, but just hitting vigor 'cause hey, it's a heal right?). The precise reason vigor was nerfed was to promote some kind of skill, timing, thought processing (or whatever you want to name it), before you cast it, as casting it randomly will result in a noticeable hit in your sustain, meaning that you'll be punished for that mistake. Troll king is basically the same thing, there's no real reason to nerf vigor, if people can still be mindless about the way they play 'cause they have such a powerful tool that requires literally no skill to use.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Please no? Pirate skele is just as good. Proc dmg sets do a huge amount of carrying for offensive builds still. Leave TK alone, at least until after it changes

Totally agree Pirate Skelly is just as much of an issue, but as stated above, I wasn't thinking about it when I made this forum post, feel free to start a thread about it too, I'll contribute to with all my engagement.

Strider_Roshin

It procs when you hit execute range; meaning for you to reap its benefits you need to be able to recover. It also offers nothing as far as damage does whereas Skoria, Selene's, or Velidreth can potentially take a third of your health away for free. Troll King​ is a great set if you're not a Templar or a DK, and way more people survive death from Undeath than they do Troll King.

Troll King doesn't carry bad players, it reinforces talented ones. Troll King is wasted on the unskilled. Troll King is fine where it is. If you see someone that's using it get them to around 60% before bursting them. It's that simple.

Qbiken

WIth all the nerfs coming with next patch hitting all classes, both PvE and PvP...

YOU CREATE ANOTHER NERF-POST!!!!!!

I´m losing hope for this community someties...

Waffennacht

NBrookus wrote: »

IMO, Troll King's healing should be weaker than Malubeth's because TK always procs, whereas Malubeth only has a chance to proc and has counterplay to prevent full heal. Right now Troll King is far stronger and there's no counterplay against it.

Troll King is stupidly strong on Stam sorcs, and probably will continue to be. It really carries players and allows them to make a lot of mistakes without consequence. Their opponent has to run a high burst build -- but the TK wearer can be high burst AND have the heals.

On other stam classes, with the cost increase of vigor, Troll King might no longer be the huge crutch it is now. Or so I hope. If every stam player can't afford 100% uptime on vigor, that leaves room to either fight a resource war or CC and burst before they can proc the set.

Malubeth deals damage, TK does not, the heal and damage components create a larger health difference than TK does. Malubeth should heal for less

Also, you cannot nerf skele because it's major protection, you could only change the duration, or proc chance. Which they did.

I'm for 0 nerfs

Mordenkainen

Oh another post about 'carrying'.


I'll get my popcorn.

Quantum_V

Qbiken wrote: »

WIth all the nerfs coming with next patch hitting all classes, both PvE and PvP...

YOU CREATE ANOTHER NERF-POST!!!!!!

I´m losing hope for this community someties...

Sorry, didn't get the point you're trying to make. Let's make a hypothetical case here, let's say Crystal Frags hit for 100000k damage, let's say every other aspect of the game gets nerfed except that crystal frag, should people not complain about it just 'cause other things are already getting nerfed. I know I built up an extreme case, but it's just to make a point that you're 'argument' makes no sense.

If you're not going to say anything productive, be it pro-nerf or against it, don't miss the golden opportunity to remain silent.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

It procs when you hit execute range; meaning for you to reap its benefits you need to be able to recover. It also offers nothing as far as damage does whereas Skoria, Selene's, or Velidreth can potentially take a third of your health away for free. Troll King​ is a great set if you're not a Templar or a DK, and way more people survive death from Undeath than they do Troll King.

Troll King doesn't carry bad players, it reinforces talented ones. Troll King is wasted on the unskilled. Troll King is fine where it is. If you see someone that's using it get them to around 60% before bursting them. It's that simple.

Hey, nice input, but can you make it a little bit clearer for me, I didn't really understand what you meant. You said that Troll king doesn't carry bad players, but I didn't understand how it doesn't. In my point of view it literally gives you passive healing which you don't have to build for, spend resources on, or do anything apart from allowing yourself to get to low health (which I don't necessarily see that as being a skillfull tactic on MOST situations). About the other proc sets you mentioned, I totally agree with everything, imho all of them should be removed or nerfed to a point where they no longer can literally turn the tide of the fight whilst requiring no skill for it to be used (keep in mind, if they're built in a way where actual skill is needed to use them, then I agree proc sets are a valuable asset that should be maintained and refined in the game.)

Thanks!

Waffennacht

Dude you missed the no proc train years ago

Quantum_V

Waffennacht wrote: »

Dude you missed the no proc train years ago

I made a couple of threads about proc sets a while ago, I'm just coming with this up again now, 'cause we're in PTS vibe with a new patch about to come, might prove to be a worthy opportunity to touch this matter again. But again, man, this post you just made had no contribution to our main thread here. You have 3 options worthy of respect here:

1. Give your points of view on why it should be nerfed;
2. Give your points of view on why it shouldn't be nerfed (which you kinda did, but the thread is developing and new arguments and couter arguments were proposed, and I don't think it was that productive, idk about you);
3. Leave this thread alone, go look up something you're more keen on discussing about, and give room to people that want to discuss this matter.

Thank you for your contribution...

Domander

50% is execute range, it's fine.

It's a great healer set.

mtwiggz

Troll King is absolutely ridiculous, I would agree. Should at least have a cool down attached to it if anything. Although I believe bringing the values down a bit would/should happen as well.

Rohamad_Ali

I say we all fight in green non five piece crafted sets like real men an women warriors .

Oh yeah that helmet thing .Troll King looks on par with the rest of the mending sets . Malubeth still gives players an easy way to stay alive but nothing op anymore . That pirates set is the same in general way . I don't think they are op in the new system . The problem is most of the end game PVE takes these sets into consideration and they won't separate PVE . Best to wait for a few more patches before deciding on taking away anymore stuff from players .

Strider_Roshin

Quantum_V wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

WIth all the nerfs coming with next patch hitting all classes, both PvE and PvP...

YOU CREATE ANOTHER NERF-POST!!!!!!

I´m losing hope for this community someties...

Sorry, didn't get the point you're trying to make. Let's make a hypothetical case here, let's say Crystal Frags hit for 100000k damage, let's say every other aspect of the game gets nerfed except that crystal frag, should people not complain about it just 'cause other things are already getting nerfed. I know I built up an extreme case, but it's just to make a point that you're 'argument' makes no sense.

If you're not going to say anything productive, be it pro-nerf or against it, don't miss the golden opportunity to remain silent.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

It procs when you hit execute range; meaning for you to reap its benefits you need to be able to recover. It also offers nothing as far as damage does whereas Skoria, Selene's, or Velidreth can potentially take a third of your health away for free. Troll King​ is a great set if you're not a Templar or a DK, and way more people survive death from Undeath than they do Troll King.

Troll King doesn't carry bad players, it reinforces talented ones. Troll King is wasted on the unskilled. Troll King is fine where it is. If you see someone that's using it get them to around 60% before bursting them. It's that simple.

Hey, nice input, but can you make it a little bit clearer for me, I didn't really understand what you meant. You said that Troll king doesn't carry bad players, but I didn't understand how it doesn't. In my point of view it literally gives you passive healing which you don't have to build for, spend resources on, or do anything apart from allowing yourself to get to low health (which I don't necessarily see that as being a skillfull tactic on MOST situations). About the other proc sets you mentioned, I totally agree with everything, imho all of them should be removed or nerfed to a point where they no longer can literally turn the tide of the fight whilst requiring no skill for it to be used (keep in mind, if they're built in a way where actual skill is needed to use them, then I agree proc sets are a valuable asset that should be maintained and refined in the game.)

Thanks!

The reason why I said it doesn't carry bad players is because Troll King isn't up automatically; you need to get within​ execute range first (<50%) before it activates, and unskilled payers aren't knowledgeable enough, or at the very least lack the reaction time needed to recover from being bursted down to that point. Where Troll King really shines is when someone does burst you down to execute range, and then you recover because then you have a large amount of health recovery while being at/near full health.

A bad player will get bursted to execute range, and then killed; making troll king a waste for them. This is why Troll King is a good addition, it rewards the talented, and useless on the unskilled.

Athrys5

Troll king from 60% to 25% would be fine or it can stay to 50% but they proc chance is 50% when you cast an heal.
Pirate skeleton from 30% less dmg to about 15% less dmg would be fine as well with 5% proc chance.

Chrlynsch

Troll king is fine, with a equivalent of 750 hot. With the CP change it was nerfed.

Quantum_V

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

WIth all the nerfs coming with next patch hitting all classes, both PvE and PvP...

YOU CREATE ANOTHER NERF-POST!!!!!!

I´m losing hope for this community someties...

Sorry, didn't get the point you're trying to make. Let's make a hypothetical case here, let's say Crystal Frags hit for 100000k damage, let's say every other aspect of the game gets nerfed except that crystal frag, should people not complain about it just 'cause other things are already getting nerfed. I know I built up an extreme case, but it's just to make a point that you're 'argument' makes no sense.

If you're not going to say anything productive, be it pro-nerf or against it, don't miss the golden opportunity to remain silent.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

It procs when you hit execute range; meaning for you to reap its benefits you need to be able to recover. It also offers nothing as far as damage does whereas Skoria, Selene's, or Velidreth can potentially take a third of your health away for free. Troll King​ is a great set if you're not a Templar or a DK, and way more people survive death from Undeath than they do Troll King.

Troll King doesn't carry bad players, it reinforces talented ones. Troll King is wasted on the unskilled. Troll King is fine where it is. If you see someone that's using it get them to around 60% before bursting them. It's that simple.

Hey, nice input, but can you make it a little bit clearer for me, I didn't really understand what you meant. You said that Troll king doesn't carry bad players, but I didn't understand how it doesn't. In my point of view it literally gives you passive healing which you don't have to build for, spend resources on, or do anything apart from allowing yourself to get to low health (which I don't necessarily see that as being a skillfull tactic on MOST situations). About the other proc sets you mentioned, I totally agree with everything, imho all of them should be removed or nerfed to a point where they no longer can literally turn the tide of the fight whilst requiring no skill for it to be used (keep in mind, if they're built in a way where actual skill is needed to use them, then I agree proc sets are a valuable asset that should be maintained and refined in the game.)

Thanks!

The reason why I said it doesn't carry bad players is because Troll King isn't up automatically; you need to get within​ execute range first (<50%) before it activates, and unskilled payers aren't knowledgeable enough, or at the very least lack the reaction time needed to recover from being bursted down to that point. Where Troll King really shines is when someone does burst you down to execute range, and then you recover because then you have a large amount of health recovery while being at/near full health.

A bad player will get bursted to execute range, and then killed; making troll king a waste for them. This is why Troll King is a good addition, it rewards the talented, and useless on the unskilled.

Interesting point, I think I know what you're trying to say here. I'll have to disagree on some points though:

I still think good and bad players get healing from trollking without having to do anything, trollking puts both of these plays into a save zone (out of execute range) without requiring them to think, spend resources, make a skillfull move in anyway. If a bad player, for example, gets bursted down to 50% health, troll king by itself is enough to recover them back into that save zone, and hardly people can burst twice in that short period of time (as bursting generally involves ultis), which means they'll survive the first burst with little to no skill, and that goes to good and bad players.

I understand that generally good players will be able to recover from the burst more easily, by using a burst heal or any other well-timed strategic ideas to recover, but at that point it seems they don't need troll king anymore...

Hope you understand the point I'm trying to make here!
Thanks!

Quantum_V

Prothwata wrote: »

Troll king is fine, with a equivalent of 750 hot. With the CP change it was nerfed.

Hm... why? Trollking is affected by the health recovery CP (if it's affected by it at all), the main areas of CP that are getting hit are thouse that provide sustain, which does seem to affect trollkings performance at all.

Just my thought on the matter.

NBrookus

Only one execute starts at 50%, it's very weak in that range and a templar that starts close range beaming at 50% is a dead templar unless they can stand safely behind a zerg.