Imperial's Red Diamond Passive. Please rework.

GreenSoup2HoT

RedGuard's Adrenaline finally got a rework, long time coming. In my opinion it was ridiculous how easy it was to stack maximum resources and be given monstrous sustain via RedGuard Adrenaline rush or even Battle Roar/Helping Hands but...... when do Imperials get theirs?

Redguard Skills
Adrenaline Rush: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.

Where is the:

Imperial Skills
Red Diamond: This passive ability now restores Health based on your character level instead of Max Health. Also no longer has a 10% proc chance and has 100% chance to proc on a 5/6 second cool-down to mimic Adrenaline Rush but for health.

Imperial's Red Diamond is such a niche passive and only really effective on the very few health builds. Its about time ANYONE can get value from this passive by changing it to mimic the Red Guard's Adrenaline passive but for health. In my opinion it should also be a decent amount of health because unlike stamina you cannot use it to cast anything, its just a bit more survivability so the value should be double the redguard stamina value or happen more often. To be fair, it is only health. Please adjust this passive.


These patch notes may actually sway me to come back to ESO. A lot of these changes to classes have been what ive been asking for a long time. Thank you ZOS for finally imo bringing the game back in line. I'm keeping my hopes high for the Morrowwind expansion!

BuggeX

and make it proc on meele skills such as flame lash , Jabs etc

GreenSoup2HoT

BuggeX wrote: »

and make it proc on meele skills such as flame lash , Jabs etc

If Red Diamond was changed to a 100% proc chance on a cool-down sure thing.

Solariken

Thanks for making some noise about this - I'm holding on to hope that they will one day make this passive decent. Your suggestion is good, but I would personally prefer it proc on incoming damage rather than melee damage dealt.

Twohothardware

Imperial is my favorite race so I'd really like to see them get a buff in Morrowind, especially with all the nerfs to sustain and stam cost because that just gives even more of an advantage to races like Redguard that get 10% max stam, 10% stam regen, and Adrenaline.

aeowulf

In fact all other racials could do with a quick glance over too.

With the upcoming sustain changes, all races that have some form of resource sustain assistance (decrease cost, increase regen etc) just got more powerful and the ones which were stat focused just got less useful.

wimhwimladimf

In B4 pay to win.

Rinmaethodain

Please, stop with this "Scales with your character lvl" that kills build diversity and oversimplifies gameplay. Before "Scales to character LVL" era came people could prove their creativity and create interesting builds with resource pools optimised for certain passives.

FlyLionel

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

RedGuard's Adrenaline finally got a rework, long time coming. In my opinion it was ridiculous how easy it was to stack maximum resources and be given monstrous sustain via RedGuard Adrenaline rush or even Battle Roar/Helping Hands but...... when do Imperials get theirs?

Redguard Skills
Adrenaline Rush: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.

Where is the:

Imperial Skills
Red Diamond: This passive ability now restores Health based on your character level instead of Max Health. Also no longer has a 10% proc chance and has 100% chance to proc on a 5/6 second cool-down to mimic Adrenaline Rush but for health.

Imperial's Red Diamond is such a niche passive and only really effective on the very few health builds. Its about time ANYONE can get value from this passive by changing it to mimic the Red Guard's Adrenaline passive but for health. In my opinion it should also be a decent amount of health because unlike stamina you cannot use it to cast anything, its just a bit more survivability so the value should be double the redguard stamina value or happen more often. To be fair, it is only health. Please adjust this passive.


These patch notes may actually sway me to come back to ESO. A lot of these changes to classes have been what ive been asking for a long time. Thank you ZOS for finally imo bringing the game back in line. I'm keeping my hopes high for the Morrowwind expansion!

@ZOS_RichLambert Introducing flat values across the board; this should be addressed.

Ladislao

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Please, stop with this "Scales with your character lvl" that kills build diversity and oversimplifies gameplay. Before "Scales to character LVL" era came people could prove their creativity and create interesting builds with resource pools optimised for certain passives.

It doesn't. It just changes the rules of build creation. If people cannot create builds except maximizing resource pool it is not balance problem.

wimhwimladimf

People will always min/max and copy pasta build from others. If you honestly think this patch will change anything you're simply delusional.

GreenSoup2HoT

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Please, stop with this "Scales with your character lvl" that kills build diversity and oversimplifies gameplay. Before "Scales to character LVL" era came people could prove their creativity and create interesting builds with resource pools optimised for certain passives.

O yeah, playing with Redguard dks in blackrose with 40k+ max stamina hitting like a truck and infinite sustain was always balanced.... stacking as much max magicka with lich was always balanced also....

Morrowwind is supplying some of the best balance and build diversity yet. You ment to say "people could prove their simplicity by stacking all into one resource and not giving a **** about mechanics or sustain".

At least in Morrowwind your sets matter. Your sustain matters. Stacking all into damage has draw backs. Classes have more counters (looking at igneous shield). Everything in my opinion is getting much better then before.

Qbiken

Sure buff Red diamond, *** passive anyway.

If you seriously think the adrenaline nerf was good......just *sigh*
It was nerfed a few patches ago, the skill was fine. No need to be nerfed, redguard was not overpowered because of it. Just because you can´t kill someone in pvp or certain builds are meta doesn´t mean they need to go away.
Theorycrafters will always find what´s "BiS" and "META". Shall we nerf everything that becomes meta and bis just because players want to perform as good as possible??? The answer to that is no, we shouldn´t. Things that doesn´t work as intended should be adjusted, maybe tweaked a little once in a while (and the recent changes isn´t a little "tweak", it´s a destruction of a classunique passive. Same goes for dk´s battle roar that shouldn´t be touched)

I´m generally against the whole "based on your level" *** for all classes and skills. It removes the uniqueness when everyone shall "be the same".

Arbitrator

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

RedGuard's Adrenaline finally got a rework, long time coming. In my opinion it was ridiculous how easy it was to stack maximum resources and be given monstrous sustain via RedGuard Adrenaline rush or even Battle Roar/Helping Hands but...... when do Imperials get theirs?

Redguard Skills
Adrenaline Rush: This passive ability now restores Stamina based on your character level instead of your Max Stamina.

Where is the:

Imperial Skills
Red Diamond: This passive ability now restores Health based on your character level instead of Max Health. Also no longer has a 10% proc chance and has 100% chance to proc on a 5/6 second cool-down to mimic Adrenaline Rush but for health.

Imperial's Red Diamond is such a niche passive and only really effective on the very few health builds. Its about time ANYONE can get value from this passive by changing it to mimic the Red Guard's Adrenaline passive but for health. In my opinion it should also be a decent amount of health because unlike stamina you cannot use it to cast anything, its just a bit more survivability so the value should be double the redguard stamina value or happen more often. To be fair, it is only health. Please adjust this passive.

Agreed. Red Diamond in its current iteration wasn't even worth coding.

Hymzir

I said it back when they did race balancing (what was it 6 moths ago?) and I'll say it again - do something about this skill already!

It's trash, it's useless and basically waste of skill points.

Either rework the damn thing to something that people will notice, or change it to straight +10% bonus to magicka. This would fit nicely in the symmetry you are aiming at. Each faction would have a magicka, stamina and health race and the imperials, the cosmopolitan blend of all the surrounding cultures, would be the jack of all trades.

At the very least you need to up the frequency of its proc and let all melee attacks trigger it. This includes magicka stuff too. It will still be trash and utterly unnoticeable but then all of us would at least have a reason to put points in it.

Currently it is, on average, basically equivalent to a 150 or so hot that is extremely unreliable and situational. You need to be in melee combat and landing hits each and every second and use skills that actually proc it.This is complete rubbish. If you do manage more than 1 hit per second, the the average hot it offers will, of course, go up, but it's unreliability will still make it meaningless. At 10% chance most fights are up and over before this thing procs even once.

So yeah - do something about it!

And for those who will say that having +10% to both magicka and stamina is too much... It's not. It really isn't. I main a magicka imperial character - have been doing so since early access from way back in 2014. The extra stamina I get is... about 1k... It does come in handy sometimes - enabling me to do one more break free or block and maybe get another dodge ready a bit faster than I would otherwise. Hardly game breaking. On a stamina Imperial, the extra magicka my change would offer, would mean maybe casting one more supporting spell in a pinch. A cheap supporting spell that is. Hardly overpowered.

But for hybrid builds, those who run all tri stat glyphs and the few sets that truly support hybrids, the effect would be meaningful. And would also make hybrids lot more viable. Still worse than going single resource, but... It would help to have a race that actually supports hybrids.

Well that's my idea anyway. Has been for over a year now. But ZOS has other ideas... Mainly revolving around letting Imperials just suck it.

MrBeatDown_

As imperial Stamina Dk, I think the value it provides now is Decent. But i really do like Solariken's suggestion that it work on incoming damage instead of outgoing melee attacks.

As imperial its optimum to run High health builds anyway. Everything works better for you. Examples, Green dragon blood, Spiked Bone shield, Heavy armor passive Juggernaut, and any skill that benefits you by a percentage based on max health.

So i like Red Diamond and i also like imperial Passive Tough which increases your max health by 12%.

GreenSoup2HoT

MrBeatDown_ wrote: »

As imperial Stamina Dk, I think the value it provides now is Decent. But i really do like Solariken's suggestion that it work on incoming damage instead of outgoing melee attacks.

As imperial its optimum to run High health builds anyway. Everything works better for you. Examples, Green dragon blood, Spiked Bone shield, Heavy armor passive Juggernaut, and any skill that benefits you by a percentage based on max health.

So i like Red Diamond and i also like imperial Passive Tough which increases your max health by 12%.

I personally am really fond of melee attacks granting the health. As a nightblade who slips in and out of cloak its nice to be able to get some sustain as a melee stamina nb. The passives are great but red diamond man.... its just so bad, especially in pvp.

FuriousFridge

Qbiken wrote: »

Sure buff Red diamond, *** passive anyway.

If you seriously think the adrenaline nerf was good......just *sigh*
It was nerfed a few patches ago, the skill was fine. No need to be nerfed, redguard was not overpowered because of it. Just because you can´t kill someone in pvp or certain builds are meta doesn´t mean they need to go away.
Theorycrafters will always find what´s "BiS" and "META". Shall we nerf everything that becomes meta and bis just because players want to perform as good as possible??? The answer to that is no, we shouldn´t. Things that doesn´t work as intended should be adjusted, maybe tweaked a little once in a while (and the recent changes isn´t a little "tweak", it´s a destruction of a classunique passive. Same goes for dk´s battle roar that shouldn´t be touched)

I´m generally against the whole "based on your level" *** for all classes and skills. It removes the uniqueness when everyone shall "be the same".

True but bad players will still be bad players after morrowind drops no matter how much nerfing ZOS does. They just wanted to trick people who aren't good to think they will be at the top

Publius_Scipio

Something definitely needed to happen with the imperial race. For a race that was part of the more expensive imperial edition of the game at launch, imperials sure have become mediocre at best in my eyes when compared to the other races and their value to the current meta builds out there.

I'm not even sure how long its been since I have seen a build video that actually recommends being imperial. The damn lizard folk get more love.

UppGRAYxDD

Why not make red diamond function like adrenaline rush but return magicka instead...

GreenSoup2HoT

UppGRAYxDD wrote: »

Why not make red diamond function like adrenaline rush but return magicka instead...

To be fair the passive returns health. So it should stay that way. However others have mentioned a replacement passive which would add 10% max magicka to make Imperials a jack of all trades kind of race. The issue with this is the lore. The lore states Imperial is the shield wielding race like Redguards. They are not known for their magical potenail (even though some famous mages have been imperial in the lore). Not as physic as orcs but have better battle strategy and intelligence. In my opinion better intelligence does not mean they are better suited with magicka.

I think Imperial's passives suit them very well, its just Red Diamond that falls short from its actual usefulness.

Hymzir

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

However others have mentioned a replacement passive which would add 10% max magicka to make Imperials a jack of all trades kind of race. The issue with this is the lore. The lore states Imperial is the shield wielding race like Redguards. They are not known for their magical potenail (even though some famous mages have been imperial in the lore). Not as physic as orcs but have better battle strategy and intelligence. In my opinion better intelligence does not mean they are better suited with magicka.

I think Imperial's passives suit them very well, its just Red Diamond that falls short from its actual usefulness.

Okay... Since I am an ardent supporter of the jack-of-all trades approach for Imperials, I gotta respond to this: Lore is a pointless argument when talking about game mechanics. The lore behind the game is often conflicting and constantly being revised and re-invented. Ultimately, all stances based on lore, are merely one's own personal interpretations on what it means

Furthermore, the notion that Magicka equals magical aptitude and Stamina physical prowess is false. Magicka is just a term lifted from precious Elder Scrolls games for a resource pool under which the devs shoved an arbitrary selection of abilities. The same is equally true for Stamina. We could just as well rename them into Swagger and Kewlsies and it would not make a licking difference. Well beyond losing the artificial familiarity we have with those terms since they've been used in previous Elder Scroll games to govern very different things. And of course the connotations we attach to those terms from their use in non TES games.

I mean... In ESO, I can roll up a stamplar and throw spears of pure light with what? My physical fitness? In every other Elder Scroll game, stuff like that would go under spells and would use Magicka since it clearly is a magical ability. But in ESO I can throw those spear with either Magicak or Stamina depending on which way I morph the skill. The choice is arbitrary and one that annoys me, since I play mostly magicak templars and would much rather use the stamina morph than the magicka morph. But them's the way the cookie crumbles in this game.

As for lore... I challenge your assertions about magical aptitude of the Imperial race. In fact I challenge the whole frigging notion of magical aptitude of any race in Elder Scrolls. All races have mighty mages and powerful warriors. While the Nords might favor feats of arms, and while the Altmer tend to gravitate towards magical arts, these natural tendencies do not limit individuals of either race in any way. This is also true in all the proper TES games - you can pick any race and develop it into any direction you want. Your race only serves as a starting point and may make some paths easier than others, but will not limit your ultimate potential. In ESO, things are different. Your race will determine whether you will be better with blue magic or green magic as well as your theoretical maximum potential.

The issue here is not lore, the issue here is that in ESO you have two different pools of resources and your race determines you maximum attainable power level in these pools. Which I think goes against the spirit of the Elder Scroll games - which have always been about the idea that you can be anything you want, develop your own personal style and not be limited by your initial choices.

So yeah... Stamina does not equal physical prowess and magicka is not equal to your magical talent. You can cling to the words, and refuse to see the forest from the trees, but the fact of the matter still is that they are just resource pools of "awesomeness" that enable you to do cool stuff.

And finally - Imperial Battle Mages - they are totally a thing. And Imperials are noted for their light infantry, not heavy tanky dudes, so if you wanna go by lore, you should replace the health buff (which in ESO terms is a tanky ability) with something that deals with commerce, since that is the really big thing about Imperials.

A truly lore friendly Imperials should have +10 percent Magicka and Stamina, since that would totally fit the idea of light infantry and battlemages, and some sort of money making passive. A real one, and not the silly one they have at the moment. But yeah... ESO is not a game that revolves around commerce, so maybe leave the health bonus and just not worry about the lore that much, and instead try to focus on stuff that works within the framework of this particular game. Which is in dire need of a hybrid supporting race and the Imperials are the most logical choice for that. Plus the lore does support it since they are cosmopolitan and very adaptable people open for all sorts of new thoughts and ideas.

But in all seriousness... I'd just be happy if the Red Diamond would do something meaningful that would warrant placing points in it.

Arbitrator

Red Diamond - Your melee attacks restore (2,4,7%) of your max health. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds. While below (90%) health, this effect can also occur by receiving damage.

Edit:

Or maybe

Red Diamond - Your Melee attacks restore (2,4,7%) of your max health. This effect can occur once every 5 seconds. While below (30%) health, you take (3,6,9%) less damage.

I prefer the second one. This would put us above nords in damage mitigation while we are in execute phase and strengthens the "infantry" theme of imperials.

clocksstoppe

Imperial is already *** overloaded, do you unironically want to turn it into p2w race?

Arbitrator

clocksstoppe wrote: »

Imperial is already *** overloaded, do you unironically want to turn it into p2w race?

Get a buddy, put all your points into red diamond, duel them and while they stand still beat on them with a Melee weapon light attack over and over. You'll see why red diamond sucks in its current iteration.

Also, what do you mean overloaded? Imperials are the max health race. Three percent (3%) more health than the next highest other races with a max health passive. Their max stamina passive is 10% which is 2% lower than the max stamina/magicka races putting them in the middle of max resource races. They don't get a bonus to health, stamina, or magicka recovery. They don't get faster movement speed, increased Melee damage, or anything to help restore from drinking potions. Red diamond should be a unique passive that is indicative of what Imperials are made out of.

It's not about making a P2W class. It's about making all classes have beneficial racial buffs that fit the lore/background of their race. Red diamond is weak all we are asking for is a passive worth 3 skill points.

Rinmaethodain

Seeing how things went this PTS cycle, i honestly dont want anything anymore. Just leave things as they are. Giving them attention results with these new kind of nerfs "Its a buff if X and nerf if Y" where Y is 99% sane players who plan their builds in logical way.

GreenSoup2HoT

MaximusDargus wrote: »

Seeing how things went this PTS cycle, i honestly dont want anything anymore. Just leave things as they are. Giving them attention results with these new kind of nerfs "Its a buff if X and nerf if Y" where Y is 99% sane players who plan their builds in logical way.

Kinda sucks when Red Diamond is only a relevant passive for Sun Shield builds though...

Turelus

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

In B4 pay to win.

Too late, by about two three years.

GreenSoup2HoT

Turelus wrote: »

wimhwimladimf wrote: »

In B4 pay to win.

Too late, by about two three years.

Not even a tweak or look. Its like zos forgot imperials exist.