Argument for Removing the 20% Damage Reduction Component from Leeching Strikes

GrumpyDuckling

Using the Nightblade Skill Leeching Strikes reduces a player's weapon and spell damage by 20% in exchange for light and heavy attacks bringing back a measly 3% Health. It's not close to being anywhere near as effective as Siphoning Attacks - even the magicka and stamina return of Leeching Strikes is only 1/4 the total of Siphoning Attacks.

It's punishment enough that Leeching Strikes needs to take up 2 slots as a toggle and is 1/4 as effective at returning magicka and stamina compared to it's morph counterpart, why does it need to drop damage done by 20% as well?

I advocate for removal of the damage reduction from Leeching Strikes on the grounds that the 3% health return on light and heavy attacks does not make up for the need to occupy 2 skill slots, and the 1/4 return of magicka and stamina compared to Siphoning Attacks.

Edit: For math correction. Leeching Strikes has about 1/4 the total magicka and stamina return compared to Siphoning Attacks.

WalksonGraves

As a tank I love the fast tri stat recovery/huge hvy resource gain and could care less about the damage loss. Keeps me self sufficient while being drained where recovery doesn't help.

redspecter23

Leeching Strikes is amazing on a tank and it probably isn't designed with a dps character in mind. You'd use the other morph in that situation.

Lynx7386

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

WalksonGraves

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

Joy_Division

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

Do you drop block against the Warrior in Hel Ra?

actosh

Joy_Division wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

Do you drop block against the Warrior in Hel Ra?

I did drop block against the warrior in hel ra hm multiple times. If u know its attack pattern its easy to do. Never got caught by him while doin that.

Sure its easier on a dk tank(i have one too).
Often enough there is enough time to do a invigorating drain.

WarpigFunk

Joy_Division wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

Do you drop block against the Warrior in Hel Ra?

Sap tanks are generally an off tank role ... MOST sap tanks are not MTing the Warrior. Some can - but most wouldn't.

That said, you can drop block against the Warrior at certain times, yes. Though, my tank is my least played alt so take that for what it's worth... not much.

Waffennacht

Nvm

paulsimonps

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

I've seen you say that in a lot of threads now..... But you do know that YOU GAIN ULTIMATE FROM BLOCKING. And its just as good as if you did a light attack, its the same thing. Dropping block on though fights does not make you a better tank than others, in most fights I would say that makes you a dead tank. Try dropping block on the Axes in vAA. Please, try it.

Izaki

paulsimonps wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

I've seen you say that in a lot of threads now..... But you do know that YOU GAIN ULTIMATE FROM BLOCKING. And its just as good as if you did a light attack, its the same thing. Dropping block on though fights does not make you a better tank than others, in most fights I would say that makes you a dead tank. Try dropping block on the Axes in vAA. Please, try it.

^ Yeah the ultimate gain from light attack, heavy attacks and blocking is the same thing. 3 ult per second over 9 seconds.

Izaki

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

Tanks perma block. That's how it is. You don't drop block ever. You don't need to light attack. You know why? Cause the basic ultimate generation in this game is tied to 3 things: light attacks, heavy attacks and block. So if you block, you're getting the same ultimate generation as when you light attack or heavy attack. The basic ultimate generation in ESO is 3 ultimate per second for 9 seconds.

If you drop block, you're not a tank, you're the dude who's gonna cause a wipe in a trial.

WalksonGraves

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

Tanks perma block. That's how it is. You don't drop block ever. You don't need to light attack. You know why? Cause the basic ultimate generation in this game is tied to 3 things: light attacks, heavy attacks and block. So if you block, you're getting the same ultimate generation as when you light attack or heavy attack. The basic ultimate generation in ESO is 3 ultimate per second for 9 seconds.

If you drop block, you're not a tank, you're the dude who's gonna cause a wipe in a trial.

I don't have to block on warrior unless it's an instakill wind up but my build allows for it. Essentially I have the same dr as blocking so I can invigorating drain to full under any circumstances. I don't really need to drop block for the warrior since it's such a quick and easy fight and you don't have to move. Most boss fights require some kind of mobility, it blows my mind that you guys ignore 90% of the game mechanics to crawl around blocking.

The only time I died in a trial was the first time I tried out the shield ult, turns out "100% blocking" doesn't count as blocking to insta kills.

I find it funny how you guys simultaneously think trials are too hard since only permablocking dks can do it but also medium armor with guard works because its so easy.
Kind of like how 30% dr from guard is essential but 30% dr from pirate "is only 4% increase in defense because reasons"

WalksonGraves

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

As a nightblade tank, I still prefer siphoning attacks. I can activate siphoning and spam strife or sap while getting enough stamina back to permablock.

Leeching isn't even good for tanks, because you have to let block down and sit there light attacking like an idiot to get any resource return

It's amazing, problem is 99% of nb tanks use a sap build which is based around the sap/siphon combo which is good but not great. Not using light attacks is a bigger ult gen loss than not using heroic strike. If you can't drop block you aren't a tank, you're a dps who is pretending.

I've seen you say that in a lot of threads now..... But you do know that YOU GAIN ULTIMATE FROM BLOCKING. And its just as good as if you did a light attack, its the same thing. Dropping block on though fights does not make you a better tank than others, in most fights I would say that makes you a dead tank. Try dropping block on the Axes in vAA. Please, try it.

^ Yeah the ultimate gain from light attack, heavy attacks and blocking is the same thing. 3 ult per second over 9 seconds.

This I didn't know, I have never seen that info anywhere. What I read was light attacks trigger ult and heavies return base resource, never saw blocking mentioned. Either way I still get tri stats from lights attacks meaning I literally cannot be drained fast enoug to not be able to block. Light attack-block cancel allows me to be fully functional with no resources.

Xvorg

No, please, it's a key component in my toon that farms dungeon and overland bosses sets

Besides, with a charged lit staff, 75 points in thaum and WoE, who cares about spell dmg?

Domander

Just change the morph into a reactive self heal.

Betsararie

Leeching strikes is garbo.

nbs don't make good tanks anyway. DKs do.

idk

@GrumpyDuckling

The other morph already removes the health return in favor of not reducing damage. It is also not a toggle so you free up a space on one bar. It is what most NB dps use if they are going to use that skill.

Really improved over the initial design. Both morphs were toggles and both morphs reduced damage by 20%.

GrumpyDuckling

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@GrumpyDuckling

The other morph already removes the health return in favor of not reducing damage. It is also not a toggle so you free up a space on one bar. It is what most NB dps use if they are going to use that skill.

Really improved over the initial design. Both morphs were toggles and both morphs reduced damage by 20%.

@Giles.floydub17_ESO

Right, I remember the initial design. My argument is that in it's current form, Leeching Strikes has four significant negatives working against it, compared to Siphoning Attacks, all for a measly 3% health return on light and heavy attacks:

1) Leeching Strikes takes up two skill slots because it is a toggle.

2) the stamina and magicka return from Leeching Strikes is about 1/4 less than the stamina and magicka return of Siphoning Attacks.

3) Leeching Strikes does not have the change to proc magicka and stamina return from direct damage attacks, like Siphoning Attacks. Leeching Strikes can only proc on light and heavy attacks.

4) Leeching Strikes has a 20% weapon and spell damage reduction.

It's for the reasons listed above, that I advocate for the removal of the 20% weapon and spell damage reduction. The first three negatives listed are still in play, but it allows Leeching Strikes to be a little bit more desirable compared to the far superior morph (in its current state), Siphoning Attacks.

WalksonGraves

You're missing some key thing, since it's toggled you don't need resources to generate more. You get magika drained you lose your sustain, I get drained I do a light attack and get tri stats.

DocFrost72

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You're missing some key thing, since it's toggled you don't need resources to generate more. You get magika drained you lose your sustain, I get drained I do a light attack and get tri stats.

Magicka nightblades lose magicka when siphoning is up? News to me.

WalksonGraves

DocFrost72 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

You're missing some key thing, since it's toggled you don't need resources to generate more. You get magika drained you lose your sustain, I get drained I do a light attack and get tri stats.

Magicka nightblades lose magicka when siphoning is up? News to me.

You still need to cast it in the first place.

bowmanz607

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

WalksonGraves

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

The health gain isn't what it's used for.

bowmanz607

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

The health gain isn't what it's used for.

then why would you use it??? Must be using it for that free debuff and the lack of skill slots.

WalksonGraves

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

The health gain isn't what it's used for.

then why would you use it??? Must be using it for that free debuff and the lack of skill slots.

Infinite sustain in all situations. As I said earlier it's the only way to keep yourself able to use skills while being stam/mag drained. That and it turns hvy attacks into huge stam returns with cp invested. None of my skills scale with the stats being reduced so the only difference is my low tank damage is slightly lower.

bowmanz607

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

The health gain isn't what it's used for.

then why would you use it??? Must be using it for that free debuff and the lack of skill slots.

Infinite sustain in all situations. As I said earlier it's the only way to keep yourself able to use skills while being stam/mag drained. That and it turns hvy attacks into huge stam returns with cp invested. None of my skills scale with the stats being reduced so the only difference is my low tank damage is slightly lower.

again, SA is far superior for resource gain.

WalksonGraves

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

The health gain isn't what it's used for.

then why would you use it??? Must be using it for that free debuff and the lack of skill slots.

Infinite sustain in all situations. As I said earlier it's the only way to keep yourself able to use skills while being stam/mag drained. That and it turns hvy attacks into huge stam returns with cp invested. None of my skills scale with the stats being reduced so the only difference is my low tank damage is slightly lower.

again, SA is far superior for resource gain.

again, you get magika drained you die.

Also 100% chance of tristat resources forever vs constantly reapplying a 10% chance on direct damage of magika and stam, I don't like relying on rng in a tight spot. That and I don't use sap.

bowmanz607

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

The health gain isn't what it's used for.

then why would you use it??? Must be using it for that free debuff and the lack of skill slots.

Infinite sustain in all situations. As I said earlier it's the only way to keep yourself able to use skills while being stam/mag drained. That and it turns hvy attacks into huge stam returns with cp invested. None of my skills scale with the stats being reduced so the only difference is my low tank damage is slightly lower.

again, SA is far superior for resource gain.

again, you get magika drained you die.

but the initial drain is nothing compared to the resources you get back. Especially if your already used to weaving in attacks. Lets not forget the resources you save from using attacks such as sap, swallow, taunts, etc. Oh, and the extra skill slot you get.

bowmanz607

additionally, lets not forget that by reducing your damage you are reducing any self healing your build may have since heals go off those stats. So although you get heals from LS you need to subtract the amount of heals you lose from your self heals to really understand what your overall heals are with LS. It simply is not worth it.

bowmanz607

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

WalksonGraves wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Leeching strikes is trash. needs a rework. Not even good for a tank. SA is far superior to leeching strikes in all situations. The minimal health gain is irrelevant and not good.

The health gain isn't what it's used for.

then why would you use it??? Must be using it for that free debuff and the lack of skill slots.

Infinite sustain in all situations. As I said earlier it's the only way to keep yourself able to use skills while being stam/mag drained. That and it turns hvy attacks into huge stam returns with cp invested. None of my skills scale with the stats being reduced so the only difference is my low tank damage is slightly lower.

again, SA is far superior for resource gain.

again, you get magika drained you die.

Also 100% chance of tristat resources forever vs constantly reapplying a 10% chance on direct damage of magika and stam, I don't like relying on rng in a tight spot. That and I don't use sap.

you realize you get more stam and mag from light attacks with SA right? It is not just reduction on attacks.