PvP Bow Build Theorycrafting

SodanTok

Alcast wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You could try the same gear as my my bowbuild here from NB: http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-nightblade-bow-build-pvp/

Also offers good cost reduction. Or you could do 5x Marksman, 5x Bone Pirate, 1x Kragh > prolly gives you similar stats but better sustain

@Alcast

The only problem with that build is finding a two handed marksman sword . I challenge anyone to find one of those on a guild trader and I haven't seen one drop in Cyrodiil in a year .

I never realised how rare they were until I tryed to buy one lol, would it be easier to opt for hawkeye over marksmans for weapons if that's the case? Providing you got the gold/ap to get one

@Rohamad_Ali

Just use a random one. It does not matter what 2h you use. Because you want the damage on your bowbar. I actually have to confirm again IF they even exist anymore the 2h marksman. It actually might be that hawkeye and Marksman only come with Bow as it is "Ranged bow gear" and ZOS with its "Smart Loot" removed all the other items.l (Smart loot ok lol >.>)

Since everyone is complaining about lack or Marksman 2H and I remember pretty well I had MANY of them before 1T and NONE after 1T, I would say its pretty safe to say they are gone. Someone needs to somehow "force" ZoS to notice it doesn't need to be bow only, if half the 5th effect works for everyone.

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

Eh it's still not going to be great with the current Warden. Spamming cliff racers really isn't that effective by itself. For a full on bow build to be effective, they need to make Fetcher Infection a stamina morph and also give the stamina cliff racer another effect.

Link quote? That would be really interesting if that was the case.

While I agree fletcher stamina would be good and another effect to cliff racer is MUST it would still not be enough. There just isnt a way for stamina ranged warden to ever force people to eat his snipe (I dont know how much cliff racer will deal damage but I would guess it wont be in numbers of crystal frags or snipes). No ranged CC + snipe is easily hearable (and by some cheats VERY noticable) + its takes forever to land + it has cast time -> good players will eat the damage only if they dont care about it or if you zerg surf/gank.

Stamden

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

Eh it's still not going to be great with the current Warden. Spamming cliff racers really isn't that effective by itself. For a full on bow build to be effective, they need to make Fetcher Infection a stamina morph and also give the stamina cliff racer another effect.

Link quote? That would be really interesting if that was the case.

While I agree fletcher stamina would be good and another effect to cliff racer is MUST it would still not be enough. There just isnt a way for stamina ranged warden to ever force people to eat his snipe (I dont know how much cliff racer will deal damage but I would guess it wont be in numbers of crystal frags or snipes). No ranged CC + snipe is easily hearable (and by some cheats VERY noticable) + its takes forever to land + it has cast time -> good players will eat the damage only if they dont care about it or if you zerg surf/gank.

Yeah currently all there is for bow builds is cheese ganking bad players and one shotting them. If that initial snipe burst doesn't kill them, then bow builds are useless.

That's exactly why a stam fletcher is the only way a bow build is going to be viable, it gives some sustained damage that bow users desperately need.

psychotic13

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You could try the same gear as my my bowbuild here from NB: http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-nightblade-bow-build-pvp/

Also offers good cost reduction. Or you could do 5x Marksman, 5x Bone Pirate, 1x Kragh > prolly gives you similar stats but better sustain

@Alcast

The only problem with that build is finding a two handed marksman sword . I challenge anyone to find one of those on a guild trader and I haven't seen one drop in Cyrodiil in a year .

I never realised how rare they were until I tryed to buy one lol, would it be easier to opt for hawkeye over marksmans for weapons if that's the case? Providing you got the gold/ap to get one

@Rohamad_Ali

Just use a random one. It does not matter what 2h you use. Because you want the damage on your bowbar. I actually have to confirm again IF they even exist anymore the 2h marksman. It actually might be that hawkeye and Marksman only come with Bow as it is "Ranged bow gear" and ZOS with its "Smart Loot" removed all the other items.l (Smart loot ok lol >.>)

That would make sense for ZoS lol . The nice part of that build though is having the 5% stamina reduction on the back bar as well for rally reals and dodge rolling away .

I wonder if @ZOS_BrianWheeler knows if the two handed marksman sword exists any more or not .

It exists, I've seen one about a while back linked in zone chat, didn't think anything of it cause I didn't realise how hard they were to aquire

technohic

Problem with marksman, archers mind, or Hawkeyes is the emphasis on stealth and bow damage, you don't have as much for vigor. If you plan to gank, then fine I guess.

I've been screwing around with way of the air, Senche, and 1 kraghs. A lot of regen and a lot of damage when I roll but having to do that can be annoying and pretty much NB cloak is all that makes it work at all for a gank and that's if they didn't see you enough to know it's coming and either have block up or ready to roll

Rohamad_Ali

Another set combo was interesting Technohic that Air and Senche . It was not a good gank set but roll dodge and bombard and endless hail hit hard in group play

Lynx7386

Neighbor wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

Eh it's still not going to be great with the current Warden. Spamming cliff racers really isn't that effective by itself. For a full on bow build to be effective, they need to make Fetcher Infection a stamina morph and also give the stamina cliff racer another effect.

Link quote? That would be really interesting if that was the case.

While I agree fletcher stamina would be good and another effect to cliff racer is MUST it would still not be enough. There just isnt a way for stamina ranged warden to ever force people to eat his snipe (I dont know how much cliff racer will deal damage but I would guess it wont be in numbers of crystal frags or snipes). No ranged CC + snipe is easily hearable (and by some cheats VERY noticable) + its takes forever to land + it has cast time -> good players will eat the damage only if they dont care about it or if you zerg surf/gank.

Yeah currently all there is for bow builds is cheese ganking bad players and one shotting them. If that initial snipe burst doesn't kill them, then bow builds are useless.

That's exactly why a stam fletcher is the only way a bow build is going to be viable, it gives some sustained damage that bow users desperately need.

Bow already has two powerful dots for sustain - hail and injection. Dots have never been the problem for bow dps, it's always been the lack of a weavable ranged stamina attack.

Alcast

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

You could try the same gear as my my bowbuild here from NB: http://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-nightblade-bow-build-pvp/

Also offers good cost reduction. Or you could do 5x Marksman, 5x Bone Pirate, 1x Kragh > prolly gives you similar stats but better sustain

@Alcast

The only problem with that build is finding a two handed marksman sword . I challenge anyone to find one of those on a guild trader and I haven't seen one drop in Cyrodiil in a year .

I never realised how rare they were until I tryed to buy one lol, would it be easier to opt for hawkeye over marksmans for weapons if that's the case? Providing you got the gold/ap to get one

@Rohamad_Ali

Just use a random one. It does not matter what 2h you use. Because you want the damage on your bowbar. I actually have to confirm again IF they even exist anymore the 2h marksman. It actually might be that hawkeye and Marksman only come with Bow as it is "Ranged bow gear" and ZOS with its "Smart Loot" removed all the other items.l (Smart loot ok lol >.>)

That would make sense for ZoS lol . The nice part of that build though is having the 5% stamina reduction on the back bar as well for rally reals and dodge rolling away .

I wonder if @ZOS_BrianWheeler knows if the two handed marksman sword exists any more or not .

You could get a Maelstrom 2h so you can use a marksman armor piece instead of kragh

technohic

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Another set combo was interesting Technohic that Air and Senche . It was not a good gank set but roll dodge and bombard and endless hail hit hard in group play

I actually haven't been using bombard lately. Expensive for as much as I like to roll and sprint. And the root is nullified by shuffle on stam users then cleanse on templars, streak on sorcs. About the only thing I feel it affects is magblade and magdk. I started using magnum shot to get melee off me since it knocks me back no matter what they have going on; then use silver shards as my spammable.

Rohamad_Ali

technohic wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Another set combo was interesting Technohic that Air and Senche . It was not a good gank set but roll dodge and bombard and endless hail hit hard in group play

I actually haven't been using bombard lately. Expensive for as much as I like to roll and sprint. And the root is nullified by shuffle on stam users then cleanse on templars, streak on sorcs. About the only thing I feel it affects is magblade and magdk. I started using magnum shot to get melee off me since it knocks me back no matter what they have going on; then use silver shards as my spammable.

Yes it was pre 1.7 when I used it last and bombard stacked still . Magnum shot , endless hail are better options now .

Xsorus

lol i have a 2h maul of the marksman..

Xvorg

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

DocFrost72

5 hawkeye, 5 marksman, master's bow (alternatively kra'gh 1 piece, 2 bows of one of those sets).

Can't see other seteups working much better than 10% cost reduce and 15% more damage.

melek-taus

5 Morag Tong, 5 Marksman, 1 Kragh piece. I was using hawkeye before this and Morag seems to deal more dmg or at least the same.

Good thing about going Marksman is that gold accessories are not very expensive and the equipment is rather easy to get.

psychotic13

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

Eh it's still not going to be great with the current Warden. Spamming cliff racers really isn't that effective by itself. For a full on bow build to be effective, they need to make Fetcher Infection a stamina morph and also give the stamina cliff racer another effect.

Link quote? That would be really interesting if that was the case.

While I agree fletcher stamina would be good and another effect to cliff racer is MUST it would still not be enough. There just isnt a way for stamina ranged warden to ever force people to eat his snipe (I dont know how much cliff racer will deal damage but I would guess it wont be in numbers of crystal frags or snipes). No ranged CC + snipe is easily hearable (and by some cheats VERY noticable) + its takes forever to land + it has cast time -> good players will eat the damage only if they dont care about it or if you zerg surf/gank.

Yeah currently all there is for bow builds is cheese ganking bad players and one shotting them. If that initial snipe burst doesn't kill them, then bow builds are useless.

That's exactly why a stam fletcher is the only way a bow build is going to be viable, it gives some sustained damage that bow users desperately need.

Bow already has two powerful dots for sustain - hail and injection. Dots have never been the problem for bow dps, it's always been the lack of a weavable ranged stamina attack.

Silver bolts

Stamden

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

Eh it's still not going to be great with the current Warden. Spamming cliff racers really isn't that effective by itself. For a full on bow build to be effective, they need to make Fetcher Infection a stamina morph and also give the stamina cliff racer another effect.

Link quote? That would be really interesting if that was the case.

While I agree fletcher stamina would be good and another effect to cliff racer is MUST it would still not be enough. There just isnt a way for stamina ranged warden to ever force people to eat his snipe (I dont know how much cliff racer will deal damage but I would guess it wont be in numbers of crystal frags or snipes). No ranged CC + snipe is easily hearable (and by some cheats VERY noticable) + its takes forever to land + it has cast time -> good players will eat the damage only if they dont care about it or if you zerg surf/gank.

Yeah currently all there is for bow builds is cheese ganking bad players and one shotting them. If that initial snipe burst doesn't kill them, then bow builds are useless.

That's exactly why a stam fletcher is the only way a bow build is going to be viable, it gives some sustained damage that bow users desperately need.

Bow already has two powerful dots for sustain - hail and injection. Dots have never been the problem for bow dps, it's always been the lack of a weavable ranged stamina attack.

Hail is PvE only. Injection alone clearly is not even close to being enough. You just pop injection on someone and then go in with a 2H.

I hope you don't seriously think that Cliff Racer spam is somehow going to make ranged bow/bow setups viable. Think of all the good PvP builds that rely on spamming the same ability over and over again.. yeah it doesn't happen.

If things like Fletcher Stamina get added and Cliff Racer Stamina gets an impactful effect (maybe an auto enhance), then a bow/bow build might become viable. Even then it's hard to say because there is still no long range CC.

bsmorrowb14_ESO

If you were to rank classes best for bow ganking. In what order would you rank them?

Nightblade
Sorc
DK
Temp?

Stamden

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

If you were to rank classes best for bow ganking. In what order would you rank them?

Nightblade
Sorc
DK
Temp?

Nightblade is the best ganker by a pretty large margin. DK is also decent because of Molten Armaments, but not nearly as good as NB in my opinion. The rest of the classes don't really have anything to compliment trying to one-shot someone out of stealth.

SodanTok

psychotic13 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

Eh it's still not going to be great with the current Warden. Spamming cliff racers really isn't that effective by itself. For a full on bow build to be effective, they need to make Fetcher Infection a stamina morph and also give the stamina cliff racer another effect.

Link quote? That would be really interesting if that was the case.

While I agree fletcher stamina would be good and another effect to cliff racer is MUST it would still not be enough. There just isnt a way for stamina ranged warden to ever force people to eat his snipe (I dont know how much cliff racer will deal damage but I would guess it wont be in numbers of crystal frags or snipes). No ranged CC + snipe is easily hearable (and by some cheats VERY noticable) + its takes forever to land + it has cast time -> good players will eat the damage only if they dont care about it or if you zerg surf/gank.

Yeah currently all there is for bow builds is cheese ganking bad players and one shotting them. If that initial snipe burst doesn't kill them, then bow builds are useless.

That's exactly why a stam fletcher is the only way a bow build is going to be viable, it gives some sustained damage that bow users desperately need.

Bow already has two powerful dots for sustain - hail and injection. Dots have never been the problem for bow dps, it's always been the lack of a weavable ranged stamina attack.

Silver bolts

Good luck with that skill. Tho I started using it in PVP since Miat's cheats were added, to at least have some ranged ability that flies fast enough. The cost is absolute crazy and with Morrowind (and loss of Warlord) it will get even worse.

Toc de Malsvi

Neighbor wrote: »

sodantokb16_ESO wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

The main reason bow isn't considered viable as a primary weapon right now is because it lacks an instant spammable attack to weave with.

The warden is getting a ranged instant spammable attack that should fill that gap for pure bow builds. Also the bear for added damage or as a tank when soloing.


@op: there's a Dev comment that they are "considering" making 2h/bow/staves count as two set items with morrowind, so that would allow a 5/5/2 setup with those weapon types.

Eh it's still not going to be great with the current Warden. Spamming cliff racers really isn't that effective by itself. For a full on bow build to be effective, they need to make Fetcher Infection a stamina morph and also give the stamina cliff racer another effect.

Link quote? That would be really interesting if that was the case.

While I agree fletcher stamina would be good and another effect to cliff racer is MUST it would still not be enough. There just isnt a way for stamina ranged warden to ever force people to eat his snipe (I dont know how much cliff racer will deal damage but I would guess it wont be in numbers of crystal frags or snipes). No ranged CC + snipe is easily hearable (and by some cheats VERY noticable) + its takes forever to land + it has cast time -> good players will eat the damage only if they dont care about it or if you zerg surf/gank.

Yeah currently all there is for bow builds is cheese ganking bad players and one shotting them. If that initial snipe burst doesn't kill them, then bow builds are useless.

That's exactly why a stam fletcher is the only way a bow build is going to be viable, it gives some sustained damage that bow users desperately need.

bsmorrowb14_ESO wrote: »

If you were to rank classes best for bow ganking. In what order would you rank them?

Nightblade
Sorc
DK
Temp?

For ganking:
NB
.
.
DK(only cause of Molten weapons)

Not for ganking:
Sorc
Temp


Snipe as a ganking tool is only good for inexperienced players or players under the effects of heavy lag near zergs. In the open field, or without heavy lag snipe is ineffective due to telegraphing its attack and long flight time.

Heavy attacks in combination with other skills are the heart of ganking. 2H weapon ultimate opened up a whole new form of ganking. Fully charged heavy attacks from stealth hit for more than snipe, especially on DK's.


Due to the movement towards heavy armor and ball group centric play, ganking of all forms has taken a down turn. More and more players are capable of surviving a solo gank attempt. That said ganking isn't dead, simply far less rewarding than it has been over the last 2 years.

DragonBound

davey1107 wrote: »

On a Warden...hmm...use the Unicorn Fart set with a Power of OP monster helm and supplement with a Nordic Bathers Towel. That should work great.

Ha...JK. No one can answer that entirely because no one has tested the Warden and we don't know what sets might come with Morrowind. I'm sure some will cater to the Warden power set. But all else being equal, my best guess is that a Stamden (you heard it here first) will be closest to a Stamplar. They'll both have a lot of wards and shields and buffs. But given they're less of a healer/support class, I'm going to randomly guess their dps will be perform somewhere between Stamplars and stamblades. Or maybe they'll be freakishly OP to help Morrowind sales.

Regardless, I think current stamplar and stamblade bow builds will mostly apply. And bows will likely,still suck for offense but work well for defense, unless we see significant skill changes.

But @Alcast , who is a far better player than me, is hard at work prepping for the Warden release. He has some prototype builds at AlcastHQ.com...probably a good place to watch for insight.

Is he though? He is good though do not get me wrong but remember this is how these guys make money, I doubt they would put their personal best out there for people to use, besides it is more fun to make ourselves and they tend to stick to only dps meta suggestions there may be other uses.