Why vamp when you can lich?

Uriel_Nocturne

Lyserus wrote: »

Immortality-check
Stronger-check
no soul-check
thirst for blood-nope no need
weakness to sun and fire-nope

It's not like liches are rare in ESO anyway, why can't we become lich rather than vamp?

Not to be too contrarian, but...

If you've played D&D at all, Liches have a Soul. They just keep it safely linked to a Phylactery somewhere, and when they die, the Soul rushes back to the phylactery to then inhabit a nearby corpse, which then changes its look slowly overtime until the Lich resembles their old self again. Which is why Liches typically stash several corpses near their phylactery's hiding place. "Just in case".

So:

Soul - Yes
Infinite resurrection? Yes

But, the rest of your list is spot on, and I definitely wouldn't mind having a "Lich" option available to Mage-archetype characters. It would open another level of depth to the RP possibilities in ESO. And that's never a bad thing.

mb10

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

To become a lich its not just a bite or a quick switch its a long process and not just anyone becomes a lich.

From what I know, it took Mannimarco a long time himself and this field is his specialty.

Wouldnt want to see 500 Liches running around Cyro anyway

A Daedra can transform you into a Lich, the Worm Cult even turned Queen Ayreens Brother if I recall so other people can transform you into one, a Necromancer cannot turn someone into a Vampire unless they were a Vampire themselves, A lich isn't even on the same level as a Vampire Lord, one is an Undead Mage who only power comes from their knowledge of spell casting, the other is a vampire who wields a portion of Molag Bal's Power and is much greater.

Lamae Bal would eat Lichs on the simple fact that her power is MUCH greater, her power increases for every vampire who would drink her blood making her ridiculously more powerful then even the King of Worms, Harkon was so powerful you needed a divine weapon AKA Auriel's Bow AKA the same weapon which launched the Heart of Lorkhan into the sky which crash landed and where Red Mountain was formed to overpower his blood magic, Also L Harkon is an anagram for Lorkhan, the L is the first letter in his title as "Lord", maybe he was a Shezzarine.

From what Ive read, a lich is resistant to magic, immortal and has the ability to conjure zombies/skeletons etc whereas a vampire cannot survive in sun light and is weak to fire.
You can be wondering the woods on a wrong night and end up a vampire in TES but you will never turn into a Lich without the countless years of mastering necromancy. So even if their knowledge is only from spell casting Im assuming the life span of hundreds of years will acquire one with great spellcasting knowledge anyway.

I dont think theres a comparison in power, the lich is far stronger and is probably why they are much rarer to be witnessed in the TES world.

You can say Lamae Bal eats Lichs but im asking you what your reference is. Where did you find this information from? Thats my question

starkerealm

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

...I'm the mod author of the Undeath immersive Lichdom for Skyrim so I know a lot more about Lichs then a LOT of people and your likely numbered among those people...

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Lamae Bal is literally a Goddess would literally eat a Lich for breakfast and Lord Harkon would as powerful as a Demiprince and would be having them for Dinner, trust me on that as well, Infact I know one person who did have a Lich for lunch.

Er, what?

Ignoring, for the moment, that the entire paragraph was one (semi-incoherent) sentence; where are you getting the idea that Lamae Bal is a godess? Hell, even identifying the daedric princes as "gods" is a bit controversial. And, yes, I do remember some vampires worship her as a deity, but (unlike D&D) that doesn't actually make her one, nor does it even start the process. The Elder Scroll's approach to apotheosis is, almost, always an internal one. The easiest analogy would be that a character needs to achieve something like a state of Zen.

If it was just, 'Lamae is viewed as a goddess by vampires," okay, yeah, that's true. However, we're talking about divinity as a tier of power, here. At which point, she's not a god, at least not in the context of how The Elder Scrolls seems to use that term.

This is also ignoring the fact that there's some textual suggestions that Harkon isn't, in fact, a first generation vampire, and that he instead relied on Serana and Valerica to become Daughters of Cold Harbour. Rather than going through the ritual himself, he had one of them turn him after the fact (probably).

Now, legitimately, Tamerilic liches are way less powerful than the ones from D&D, and Daughters of Cold Harbour are extremely powerful (or, at least, every example we've seen of one has been), so the general idea that they can smear a lich, more or less, on a whim, isn't wrong.

Eirikir

As sort of a play challenge I (stam dps) go to stage 4 vamp, equip only the passives and the skeleton polymorph and go "undead" and start running vet stuff with my buddies who do the same (all stam except our healer leader). Our leader uses vamp skills also so they are the lich and we the undead minions.

Not a roleplay thing. Just something we do after watching Clash of the Titans and/or Conan drunk.

crashen17b14_ESO

I think the strongest lich (Mannimarco post-eso) is probably a match for lord harkon. Remember that Mannimarco winds up becoming a self-made deity, in essence.

To become a lich, one needs to first be an incredibly powerful spellcaster/necromancer.

To become a vampire... one just needs to contract a disease.

Vampires also run the risk of being mindless feral addicts.

A vampire can become very powerful, a lich IS powerful.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the strongest lich (Mannimarco post-eso) is probably a match for lord harkon. Remember that Mannimarco winds up becoming a self-made deity, in essence.

To become a lich, one needs to first be an incredibly powerful spellcaster/necromancer.

To become a vampire... one just needs to contract a disease.

Vampires also run the risk of being mindless feral addicts.

A vampire can become very powerful, a lich IS powerful.

Very Powerful > Powerful

TX12001rwb17_ESO

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

I think the strongest lich (Mannimarco post-eso) is probably a match for lord harkon. Remember that Mannimarco winds up becoming a self-made deity, in essence.

To become a lich, one needs to first be an incredibly powerful spellcaster/necromancer.

To become a vampire... one just needs to contract a disease.

Vampires also run the risk of being mindless feral addicts.

A vampire can become very powerful, a lich IS powerful.

If Harkon is around the same level as a former Psjiic turned Lich then that just shows how powerful the vampire lord is seeing as Harkon doesn't seem like the "mage" type, his natural vampiric power could match the power it took Mannimarco years to obtain from practice now imagine a Psjiic monk turned Vampire Lord.

crashen17b14_ESO

Heres the difference between harkon and mannimarco: harkon had to suck molag's bal to become a vampire lord. Mannimarco made himself a god.

Besides, Harkon sat in his keep for four eras before launching a blindingly stupid self-destructive scheme that resulted in his final death. (And to add insult to injury, I beat him to death with his Master's Mace).

Mannimarco has launched numerous apocalyptic events and spawned an enduring cult, pioneered new magical techniques, created a new moon and became a god. And he did this without becoming a slave to Molag Bal. Something Harkon can't claim.

And that is the crux of it. Anyone could become powerful by pledging themselves to a Daedric Prince, and becoming their puppet. It takes a rare, exceptional individual to achieve similar power on their own.

That said, the vast majority of vampires or liches are NOT mythic shezzarines. But there are more vampires than there are liches, and the majority of those vampires are just up-jumped junkies.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Heres the difference between harkon and mannimarco: harkon had to suck molag's bal to become a vampire lord. Mannimarco made himself a god.

Besides, Harkon sat in his keep for four eras before launching a blindingly stupid self-destructive scheme that resulted in his final death. (And to add insult to injury, I beat him to death with his Master's Mace).

Mannimarco has launched numerous apocalyptic events and spawned an enduring cult, pioneered new magical techniques, created a new moon and became a god. And he did this without becoming a slave to Molag Bal. Something Harkon can't claim.

And that is the crux of it. Anyone could become powerful by pledging themselves to a Daedric Prince, and becoming their puppet. It takes a rare, exceptional individual to achieve similar power on their own.

That said, the vast majority of vampires or liches are NOT mythic shezzarines. But there are more vampires than there are liches, and the majority of those vampires are just up-jumped junkies.

Actually the agent of Daggerfall was responsible for Mannimarco becoming a god only because he gave him the Mantella which contained the soul of the Underking so therefor Mannimarco's feat by becoming a god is as impressive as the Tribunals who as we know just stole power from the Heart of Lorkhan.

Also Mannimarco is a slave to Molag Bal, check ESO's questline, he tried to cross the daedric prince and then what happened, he got tied to a table and started getting whipped by skeletons, I didn't realize Lichs could still feel pain, a vampire on the other hand could probably just mistform out of that predicament.

Also Vampires can fly, Lichs can't.

starkerealm

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Besides, Harkon sat in his keep for four eras before launching a blindingly stupid self-destructive scheme that resulted in his final death. (And to add insult to injury, I beat him to death with his Master's Mace).

See, this is actually a lore problem with Dawnguard.

Lamae is supposed to be the first vampire ever. She's the progenitor of all vampires, and the source of the first strain.

Okay. Fine.

Dawnguard gets released, and suddenly we have two (or three) new "patient zero" vampires (Serana, Valerica, and (maybe) Harkon). We also get the whole "Daughters of Cold Harbour" concept. As I recall, the term may have been floated around in earlier lore, but the idea was that any survivors would be normal vampires, not Vampire Lords. Also, before Dawnguard, there was no such thing as a Vampire Lord, so make of that what you will.

Problem is, Lamae is the first vampire. But, Harkon and his brood predate them, probably by at least several thousand years judging by Serana's comment on Cyrodiil.

*Skull explodes*

WalksonGraves

How would that work exactly? Functionally immortal unless someone enters your house and breaks your magic urn?

starkerealm

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

...a vampire on the other hand could probably just mistform out of that predicament.

If they had that ability. Remember, only two or three bloodlines are supposed to be able to do so.

starkerealm

WalksonGraves wrote: »

How would that work exactly? Functionally immortal unless someone enters your house and breaks your nagic urn?

In D&D? Yeah, actually. You might want to keep that urn someplace out of sight, where random adventurers would have a hard time finding it.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

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WalksonGraves wrote: »

How would that work exactly? Functionally immortal unless someone enters your house and breaks your magic urn?

Lichs in ES can be killed like any other creature, their immortality is simply their extended lifespan, technncally speaking a vampire's form of Immortality is greater, not only do both creatures live forever but vampires wont fall apart as easily as most are not rotted and decayed like most Lichs are, ask yourself what would you rather be? an Immortal who becomes moldy or an immortal who doesn't become moldy?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

mb10 wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

To become a lich its not just a bite or a quick switch its a long process and not just anyone becomes a lich.

From what I know, it took Mannimarco a long time himself and this field is his specialty.

Wouldnt want to see 500 Liches running around Cyro anyway

A Daedra can transform you into a Lich, the Worm Cult even turned Queen Ayreens Brother if I recall so other people can transform you into one, a Necromancer cannot turn someone into a Vampire unless they were a Vampire themselves, A lich isn't even on the same level as a Vampire Lord, one is an Undead Mage who only power comes from their knowledge of spell casting, the other is a vampire who wields a portion of Molag Bal's Power and is much greater.

Lamae Bal would eat Lichs on the simple fact that her power is MUCH greater, her power increases for every vampire who would drink her blood making her ridiculously more powerful then even the King of Worms, Harkon was so powerful you needed a divine weapon AKA Auriel's Bow AKA the same weapon which launched the Heart of Lorkhan into the sky which crash landed and where Red Mountain was formed to overpower his blood magic, Also L Harkon is an anagram for Lorkhan, the L is the first letter in his title as "Lord", maybe he was a Shezzarine.

From what Ive read, a lich is resistant to magic, immortal and has the ability to conjure zombies/skeletons etc whereas a vampire cannot survive in sun light and is weak to fire.
You can be wondering the woods on a wrong night and end up a vampire in TES but you will never turn into a Lich without the countless years of mastering necromancy. So even if their knowledge is only from spell casting Im assuming the life span of hundreds of years will acquire one with great spellcasting knowledge anyway.

I dont think theres a comparison in power, the lich is far stronger and is probably why they are much rarer to be witnessed in the TES world.

You can say Lamae Bal eats Lichs but im asking you what your reference is. Where did you find this information from? Thats my question

Lamae Bal has become more powerful with every vampire who has ever consumed her blood, this is directly mentioned by one of the vampires in dialogue during the vampire quest, She has an entire vampire clan that dominates Tamriel in the second era so how many do you believe have consumed her blood, A mere Lich would not beable to match the amount of power that has given her, if she ever had the displeasure of coming face to face with one, she would have the power to destroy them where as they would not have the power to destroy her, saying that she would eat them is more a figure of speech, she wouldn't literally show up with a knife and fork.

As for Lord Harkon, his power is physically shown during the fight where creates a Blood Shield which not even the power of the Thu'um can get through, the only way you can break his shield is by using Auriel's Bow which is the very bow Auriel fired the Heart of Lorkhan from which resulted in the formation of Red Mountain, Auriel's Bow is a God weapon of immense power and it took that to overpower the Vampire Lord, No lich has ever displayed such a feat, it was also mentioned in Dialogue by Valerica that Lord Harkon in the entire time she knew him had never been defeated even after hundreds had tried to slay him and failed, Not even Mannimarco who is the most powerful of Lichs can claim to achieving such a feat.

WalksonGraves

Lol at this debate. A vampire lich > either one. Unless it's rasslin' then undertaker comes out of retirement once again.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

WalksonGraves wrote: »

Lol at this debate. A vampire lich > either one. Unless it's rasslin' then undertaker comes out of retirement once again.

Vampires cant become Lichs nor vice versa, infact it would be kind of pointless as the whole point of becoming a Lich is to become Immortal which vampires already are by default. Lichdom itself grants no additional ability other then that.

The Lich is just an ancient form of undead surpassed by the more "evolved" AKA Molag Bal's creation known as the Vampire which came into existence at a much later date, It's like how a modern Human is superior to a Neanderthal or like how a modern vehicle is superior to a vehicle made in the 1920s, Sure some Necromancers still want to be Lichs just like how some people want to buy old cars but the practice is becoming rarer as the time goes by, sure Lichs may have some qualities over a vampire like less influence from the Daedra and no weakness to sunlight but that's it, Vampires have a lot of advantages over Lichs as well like not falling apart or becoming shrivelled like some common mortal.

crashen17b14_ESO

Harkon never became a god, so I still don't see how he can compare to Manimarco. Yeah great he had a super keen blood shield that took a magical macguffin to break. Big whoop.

The dude hasnt left his keep in how many centuries? How has he actually influenced the world? What impact has he had? He built a super spoopy castle in the middle of nowhere, had his wife and daughter *** by molag bal and locked himself away for three eras hiding from the rest of the world. I MIGHT put him on par with Divayth Fyr in terms of power, but not influence or importance.

Manimarco pioneered necromancy and initiated the soulburst and planemeld while still mortal, and formed a powerful cult that spans the whole of Tamriel. He didnt become a lich until sometime after ESO. Yes he might have double crossed molag bal (he absutely was going to try to mantle him), but somehow he eventually escaped Coldharbor and ascended to godhood. His influence persisted throughout the eras, even to the fourth, with his cult still active and thriving.

Harkon hid out for three eras until he concoted a plan that even his wife thought was so stupid she locked herself away in oblivion to keep him from doing it. Even if you are a vampire lord, Harkon's plan is literally so stupid he needs to die.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

Here is a little comparison, if we take 3 mages, one is a 1000 year old wizard, the other is a 1000 year old Lich and the other is a 1000 year old Vampire and all 3 beings have equal magical knowledge and all focus on spellcasting, who has the advantage? reaching 1000 years old and still being alive is not easy so give props to the wizard, The Lich has equal magic skill to this wizard but he additionally also has Lichdom, Lichdom however simply grants him Undead Immortality but it DOES NOT make him stronger, the experience gain from being able to live for so long is what gives a lich their formidable power, anyway these 2 wizards would be of equal skill and the Lich may take the advantage here if they both fought simply because being undead would make him more durable then the living wizard, however if we bring the vampire into this fight we now have a contestant who is not only capable of matching magic power with the other two but he unlike them possesses superhuman strength and speed to boot, he now has the advantage over the Lich and the Wizard, he is Undead like the Lich so the Lichs undead advantage does not work over him and because of his supernatural strength and speed he has something to fall back onto if his magic ever fails him, the Lich and the Wizard however have nothing to fall back onto should there magic fail them, they all 3 ran out of Magicka at the same time, the Lich and Wizard would now be at the Mercy of the Vampire's Beast-like Strength.

Therefor using simple logic, if both beings have equal magic abilities then the Vampire is almost certainly superior to the Lich when it comes to combat because he has more options to choose from in how he wants to fight, the Lich just has Magic where as the Vampire has Magic and Strength, the fact that they don't have to give up as much up as the Lich to exist also means their quality of life is superior as well, the only thing Lichs had which made them superior in D&D was the Phylactery which made them completely immortal but that isn't a mechanic of Elder Scrolls Lichdom and without that..it results in them being beneath Vampires on the food chain and able to be killed as simply as any other Undead.

LadyNalcarya

Mannimarco is not your average lich though.
Comparing him to average liches is like comparing Tiber Septim to regular humans.

crashen17b14_ESO

Right up until the sun comes out.

TX12001rwb17_ESO

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Right up until the sun comes out.

Last I checked Lamae Bal's clan isn't even effected by sunlight at all, seeing as the Lich is decaying and how heat would increase the rate of decay, its likely a lich is more effected by the sunlight then vampires of Lamae Bal's clan.

Also Manniamrco only became a god because the Agent gave him the Mantella which contained the Shezzarine Soul of Zurin Arctus, Mannimarco pretty much pulled the same thing with the Mantella that he tried to do with the Amulet of Kings and that was trap a divine soul and try to steal its power for himself.

Also he must be a Lich in ESO, Its unlikely Mannimarco wouldn't of become a Lich at that time seeing as he already knew how to become one, hell his worm cultists turned who I think was Queen Ayreens Brother into one which is proof enough that they knew it, then you have Vastarie who is a Lich and personally knew Mannimarco, However there is also the idea that Mannimarco was never actually a Lich at all and was just lying about it the whole time, wouldn't be surprised but then he would have no part in this debate now would he.

"How has he actually influenced the world? What impact has he had? He built a super spoopy castle in the middle of nowhere, had his wife and daughter *** by molag bal and locked himself away for three eras hiding from the rest of the world. I MIGHT put him on par with Divayth Fyr in terms of power, but not influence or importance."

You are aware that Lord Harkon was a King who ruled his own Kingdom right?

QuebraRegra

AhPook_Is_Here wrote: »

DeadlyPhoenix wrote: »

I thought just about all undead had a weakness to fire? Could be wrong about a lich though.

I dunno though because for the most part you can still look human as a vampire, just with cooler eyes. Liches are undead and so their skin rots unless they're extremely powerful maybe in certain types of necromantic restoration?

Both have their perks but....

Vampire Lich ftw!:P

I think a few patches back (over a year ago) they took out all the special vulnerabilities some monster types had like undead to fire and daedra to electricity. Player vampires still have a reduced vulnerability to fire and player werewolves a reduced vulnerability to poison. I would dig player liches and would totally get my lich on.

yeah, that's right! why did they ever ditch the special vulnerabilities? BURN TROLL, BURN!

TrueGreenSmoker

starkerealm wrote: »

Runschei wrote: »

Lets just become xivkyn aswell then!

Start saving your tel var stones, then.

Bought the 1.5K boxes from the merchant on my 9th box I got a xyvkyn poly not the augur that I want but I got the tormentor

crashen17b14_ESO

Yes. Harkon was king of a kingdom with no name, historical relevance, or impact on the world after he killed them all to become a vampire.

Ghettokid

Why to bosmer, dunmer, argonian, altmer, breton, khajiit, imperial, nord or redguard when you can orc?

Tryxus

Why not a Vampiric Werewolf Lich?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

crashen17b14_ESO wrote: »

Yes. Harkon was king of a kingdom with no name, historical relevance, or impact on the world after he killed them all to become a vampire.

Still a King.

Ignaeon

I'm super late, I know. But:

Soul Cairn. Ideal Masters.
Speculated to be transcended mortals.

Nuff Said?

Kisakee

Ignaeon wrote: »

I'm super late, I know. But:

Soul Cairn. Ideal Masters.
Speculated to be transcended mortals.

Nuff Said?

You just created a thread-lich, congratulations to your necro powers.