This is my reason why VMA is so difficult for people to do

Kidz_BeAstx

I have a guy on my friends list whom I strongly look up to as a role model. He is a really skilled player. He does VMA all the time, he is always kicking peoples *** in PvP, he is very knowledgeable about everything. I learned everything I know from him, and people always tell me "oh you learned this from Sypher or Deltias". He does vet trials all the time including VMoL, and he is in the biggest trials guild on this platform. He uploaded a stamsorc VMA run about 2 months ago and after I watched the video, I realized why people struggle with VMA. It takes most people who are relatively new to the content like a couple minutes to burn down a boss, he does it in just 10 seconds.

What I am saying is that ZOS really messed up the game by making loot from trials bound. How do we expect people to be raid ready when the majority of people are forced to use agility/willpower jewelry? VO and IA really makes a huge difference in DPS and I know that its not maelstrom weapons specifically because his PVE build for VMA uses Spriggons dagger/axe and maelstrom bow, so yes that jewelry really makes up a big difference.

casparian

How do we expect people to be raid ready when the majority of people are forced to use agility/willpower jewelry? VO and IA really makes a huge difference in DPS

You can get all this stuff from normal Trials though, which can be done wearing agility/willpower. It's not purple, but it's still fine for beating VMA.

WarpigFunk

IA / Moondancer over Willpower does make a difference ... however, it is certainly not the difference between 30 second burn and 10 second burn. At MOST it will shave a few seconds off your burn time on high health enemies.

Think about it this way -(way oversimplified, and not mathematically sound but you get the jist...)
5% damage on dungeon monsters ... say you're doing 30k DPS ... an enemy with 100k hp, takes 3-4 seconds to burn.
doing 5% extra damage, you're now doing roughly 32k DPS ... still takes 3 seconds. but slightly less, and maybe one fewer skill, conserving a smidge of resources.


What you're not realizing is that along with his trials jewelry, your friend is executing a MUCH more efficient rotation - and is plainly, more skilled with the class.


There are plenty of videos out there available of high skill players burning the crap out of VMA bosses superfast wearing willpower or agility jewelry.

Hell, theres videos of naked flawless runs with 200 cp...

The difference between smoking VMA and struggling, is first and foremost experience - knowing the spawns and priorities, where to be and when to be there, and what to do. Second, is player skill - micromanaging skills. A very distant third is gear / CP distribution.

XGCAlbatr0ss

Meh, I wouldn't agree with that. I got my first clear at cp 260 on a mag sorc running 5pc Julianos 3pc willpower and 2pc ilambris. It's more about learning the mechs and having the dedication and confidence to complete it. Yeah it's hard, but not impossible. Granted now I run 5pc julianos 4pc moondancer on my main bar (sharp inferno) and a maelstrom charged lightning on my back bar and it's somewhat a little bit easier but it's not a make or break for me to complete it.

pizzaow

I agree with what @WarpigFunk says. I will also add that the biggest difference between myself and the maelstrom superstars is I have 2 nearly mutually exclusive modes while in maelstrom: 1. DPS, 2. Handle mechanics.

When watching the "pros" do this, they never stop DPSing. If you watch me do this, you'd see 5-10 second windows where I'm doing nothing but running away from danger. The "pro" damage numbers aren't much (if at all) higher than mine... the difference is their numbers never stop. For example, take the crystal phase during the last boss; every video I've seen has the player constantly weave attacking crystals, while casually strafing with the wall. Me... well... you'd see me aoe/dot the crystal then do nothing but hide behind the wall until it explodes. Similarly, when a gold ghost appears after the drop down, I stop everything and sprint after the ghost. The "pros" are so good with mechanics that you hardly notice them; the gold ghosts seem to almost run into them. It's analogous to things like Olympic gymnasts walking on their hands - skilled people make difficult things look easy.

As I get better, I find myself able to dps more while simultaneously handling mechanics. This is 100% me "GettingGood". I will add that while doing this, it has very much translated into other dungeons/areas. Being able to handle your rotation on the move is a critical skill. Prior to maelstrom, I needed space to setup and begin my rotation. Now if a dungeon/trial boss teleports, my rotation doesn't stop.

strikeback1247

I got my first clear with 5x hunding's, 3x agility, 2x engine guardian and a random 2h and bow. I don't think it's the gear that's the problem for most people.

Lukums1

I'm sorry...

But when I post a very in depth guide with NMG + Agility + Monster helm... showing you can do it with basic gear and burn in the same kind of time... what point are you really trying to make?

This is a l2p issue it always has been and I say that in the nicest possible way.

You have to learn the mechanics you have to learn how to rotate through your abilities and have situational awareness.

You DON'T need trial gear... and who ever said that is super misinformed.

If I can do it WITH NO FOOD the gear above - BLUE armor and gold weapons IN FIRST PERSON.

Everyone can. And I quite frankly believe I've shown people the best way to get it done.

Luke

XGCAlbatr0ss

pizzaow wrote: »

I agree with what @WarpigFunk says. I will also add that the biggest difference between myself and the maelstrom superstars is I have 2 nearly mutually exclusive modes while in maelstrom: 1. DPS, 2. Handle mechanics.

When watching the "pros" do this, they never stop DPSing. If you watch me do this, you'd see 5-10 second windows where I'm doing nothing but running away from danger. The "pro" damage numbers aren't much (if at all) higher than mine... the difference is their numbers never stop. For example, take the crystal phase during the last boss; every video I've seen has the player constantly weave attacking crystals, while casually strafing with the wall. Me... well... you'd see me aoe/dot the crystal then do nothing but hide behind the wall until it explodes. Similarly, when a gold ghost appears after the drop down, I stop everything and sprint after the ghost. The "pros" are so good with mechanics that you hardly notice them; the gold ghosts seem to almost run into them. It's analogous to things like Olympic gymnasts walking on their hands - skilled people make difficult things look easy.

As I get better, I find myself able to dps more while simultaneously handling mechanics. This is 100% me "GettingGood". I will add that while doing this, it has very much translated into other dungeons/areas. Being able to handle your rotation on the move is a critical skill. Prior to maelstrom, I needed space to setup and begin my rotation. Now if a dungeon/trial boss teleports, my rotation doesn't stop.

^^^^^ this. Especially in that last fight. The more I do it the more I try to keep at least a dot or something on the boss at all times while simultaneously grabbing gold ghosts and dodging skulls/ interrupting him. I've come to realize that the longer that fight goes on the more bs you're going to have to deal with. It really is one of the easier fights in the arena once you get the mechs right and your timing is spot on. Everyday I try to improve my time and get better while searching for my any trait inferno staff. I'm cp 330 and my best time so far is 1:50 with a 388k score.

Kidz_BeAstx

For those of you who argue that it is purely mechanics based. This is my friend. Yes, it is about good rotation, and yes it is about mechanics, but I will argue that when you get kill a boss in 10 seconds then it is way easier to pull it off because you don't have to constantly keep going on defensive mode, which makes things more difficult.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_fcPKx-3Mg&t=680s

Kidz_BeAstx

XGCAlbatr0ss wrote: »

Meh, I wouldn't agree with that. I got my first clear at cp 260 on a mag sorc running 5pc Julianos 3pc willpower and 2pc ilambris. It's more about learning the mechs and having the dedication and confidence to complete it. Yeah it's hard, but not impossible. Granted now I run 5pc julianos 4pc moondancer on my main bar (sharp inferno) and a maelstrom charged lightning on my back bar and it's somewhat a little bit easier but it's not a make or break for me to complete it.

Yeah but how long did it take you to pull it off? I bet it took you at least 2 hours at the most, and you probably died a lot in the meantime.

XGCAlbatr0ss

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

XGCAlbatr0ss wrote: »

Meh, I wouldn't agree with that. I got my first clear at cp 260 on a mag sorc running 5pc Julianos 3pc willpower and 2pc ilambris. It's more about learning the mechs and having the dedication and confidence to complete it. Yeah it's hard, but not impossible. Granted now I run 5pc julianos 4pc moondancer on my main bar (sharp inferno) and a maelstrom charged lightning on my back bar and it's somewhat a little bit easier but it's not a make or break for me to complete it.

Yeah but how long did it take you to pull it off? I bet it took you at least 2 hours at the most, and you probably died a lot in the meantime.

Oh of course, took me about a week and a half to get my first complete. Died on the last boss around 200-300 times. Never denied that, but I can guarantee you that your friend didn't do his first run with no deaths. He probably died just as much as me if not more. Don't see your point? All I said is that you don't need trial gear, it helps yes but it's not required. Just learn the arena and you'll be able to get through it. BiS gear should be behind difficult content and in ESO it for sure is.

ZRT

In my opinion VMA is 50% knowing the mechanics of each fight and 50% knowing how to dps properly with your class. Gear does matter somewhat but not as much as you think. My first several runs through VMA were done with no trials gear on both magic and stam sorc.

Skinzz

I completed vma the other day without jewellery and still put up my best score for my stam dk. It's honestly all mechanics.

kadar

If you do the math on 3 IA/VO vs. 3 Willpower/Agility, the difference is actually quite small. Your friend is wearing 5 VO which is a bit harder to quantify....

Anyway, VO being bound and got in Trials isn't really a problem because of how easy normal trials are. The difficulty level and DPS requirements are so abysmally low, anyone can get a 5 pc of VO or IA with relative ease.

Kidz_BeAstx

His maelstrom build is 5 VO, 5 Spriggons, and 2 velidreth. I do not understand how you can say that gear doesn't make a big difference. That's like saying that I might as well wear heavy armor as a dps user in PVE. If he can end a fight in 10 seconds with his gear on vs. like a minute for the likes of the gear you non-bis users do, then yes it does make it easier. The faster the burn, the easier it is. The slower the burn, the more difficult it is. It's just common sense really.

Kidz_BeAstx

I will also add that the 5% may not seem like a lot, but when you equip it and compare it with agility jewelry, it is a massive difference in dps. I can not stress this enough.

XGCAlbatr0ss

K than why don't you just equip all the same gear he is running and see if you can burn the boss in 10 secs. Just because you put on a trial set does not automatically mean this will happen. By the likes of the video that I watched, he has run that arena so many times that he knows the spawns of each and every add that appears. Pre dropping his rotations and fighting them before they could even attack. I mean shoot, I know the spawns but not that well.

TARAFRAKA

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

I will also add that the 5% may not seem like a lot, but when you equip it and compare it with agility jewelry, it is a massive difference in dps. I can not stress this enough.

Gear plays A Part in your abilities. It does not define whether or not you will be able to complete it. I jave helped people be able to complete their characters with best im slot gear, but when they run trials or dungeons, they completely fail. this is a matter to practice. Period.

TARAFRAKA

Also, remember before that set ever came out scaled up to 160 people were still doing the same thing in that Arena. it's not the gear.

Drummerx04

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

I will also add that the 5% may not seem like a lot, but when you equip it and compare it with agility jewelry, it is a massive difference in dps. I can not stress this enough.

No. Even ignoring for a second that your base weapon/spell damage AND stamina/magicka pools will be lower with IA or VO, if the 5% damage was magically slapped onto your current dps output of - lets be generous - 40k, then your damage becomes 42k. So scaling down for what less skilled players do, 20k -> 21k, 10k -> 10.5k.

Moondancer and VO and IA and all that other stuff really isn't that much better, for something like vMA. Hell, my first flawless clear was done in nothing but gear I crafted + Willpower at around CP400.

The hard truth is that vMA really highlights your shortcoming as a solo player because you really don't have anyone to fall back on as you would in normal dungeon runs or even PvP in a lot of cases. I'm no exception to this either. There was a time where the first boss absolutely crushed me in vMA... now I shake my head thinking of those times as I clear the entire arena in ~40 minutes.

WarpigFunk

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

I will also add that the 5% may not seem like a lot, but when you equip it and compare it with agility jewelry, it is a massive difference in dps. I can not stress this enough.

It's a difference. It is not a massive difference.

I have both. Do you?


I have on my mag sorc, 3pc Moondancer, 3 pc IA, and 3 pc Willpower
On my stamsorc I have 3 pc Agility - and all gold VO.

Whether I equip agility / Willpower or trial sets - my times will not be dramatically different.

VMA does not get easier with BiS gear ... VMA gets easier with practice.

Turelus

My frustration with content locked behind things like vMSA is that it's not accessible for everyone.

When I say that I know it triggers the "git gud" crowed but sadly some people can't "git gud" because of disabilities or other reasons. This is why I have always (with vDSA and vMSA) been a advocate for the drops being available in normal content but requiring more time investment for farming (lower drop chance, lower quality).

Magdalina

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

His maelstrom build is 5 VO, 5 Spriggons, and 2 velidreth. I do not understand how you can say that gear doesn't make a big difference. That's like saying that I might as well wear heavy armor as a dps user in PVE. If he can end a fight in 10 seconds with his gear on vs. like a minute for the likes of the gear you non-bis users do, then yes it does make it easier. The faster the burn, the easier it is. The slower the burn, the more difficult it is. It's just common sense really.

Can you ask your friend to do a vMA run for you using Agility jewelry(and maybe a crafted set like Hunding's, though trial armor can be farmed in normal trials)? No sarcasm intended, but if he were to do that for you you'd probably see him burning bosses still while someone wearing BiS gear could well be struggling.

It's kinda like saying that pro snowboarding guy can do snowboarding tricks like somersaults and whatnot that you can't because his snowboard is better. Sure he probably has a better, more fancy, more expensive board than you, but if you two exchange boards you'll likely find that he still can do his somersaults and you still can't.

Better equipment generally makes things easier. But it's skill of the one using it that makes things possible at all.

Skinzz

Magdalina wrote: »

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

His maelstrom build is 5 VO, 5 Spriggons, and 2 velidreth. I do not understand how you can say that gear doesn't make a big difference. That's like saying that I might as well wear heavy armor as a dps user in PVE. If he can end a fight in 10 seconds with his gear on vs. like a minute for the likes of the gear you non-bis users do, then yes it does make it easier. The faster the burn, the easier it is. The slower the burn, the more difficult it is. It's just common sense really.

Can you ask your friend to do a vMA run for you using Agility jewelry(and maybe a crafted set like Hunding's, though trial armor can be farmed in normal trials)? No sarcasm intended, but if he were to do that for you you'd probably see him burning bosses still while someone wearing BiS gear could well be struggling.

It's kinda like saying that pro snowboarding guy can do snowboarding tricks like somersaults and whatnot that you can't because his snowboard is better. Sure he probably has a better, more fancy, more expensive board than you, but if you two exchange boards you'll likely find that he still can do his somersaults and you still can't.

Better equipment generally makes things easier. But it's skill of the one using it that makes things possible at all.

I use night mothers gaze with agility jewelry and I still burn through it. It's all experience and knowing where everything spawns, who to kill first and mechanics. I only put up low 500ish scores but I'm sure with VO I'd have better scores.

Vma requires a lot of patience and learning but it becomes easy after your first clear.

Skinzz

.

kadar

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

His maelstrom build is 5 VO, 5 Spriggons, and 2 velidreth. I do not understand how you can say that gear doesn't make a big difference. That's like saying that I might as well wear heavy armor as a dps user in PVE. If he can end a fight in 10 seconds with his gear on vs. like a minute for the likes of the gear you non-bis users do, then yes it does make it easier. The faster the burn, the easier it is. The slower the burn, the more difficult it is. It's just common sense really.

You're not really reading what people are saying here...Gear does make a difference, no one (at least not me) is arguing that. However, rotation and practice make a far larger one. The difference between 3 IA/VO and comparable non-Trial DPS sets is very small and outweighed by simple practice, rotation, and timing. Most of the people telling you this all got their first clears without VO/IA and are now getting scores comparable to your friend. My last was 563k I wanna say?

Here's you original quote for reference:

What I am saying is that ZOS really messed up the game by making loot from trials bound. How do we expect people to be raid ready when the majority of people are forced to use agility/willpower jewelry? VO and IA really makes a huge difference in DPS and I know that its not maelstrom weapons specifically because his PVE build for VMA uses Spriggons dagger/axe and maelstrom bow, so yes that jewelry really makes up a big difference.

Ask you're friend how he's so good at Maelstrom, I guarantee he will not say, "It's because I finally got gold VO jewelry."

MissBizz

I used crafted sets, monster set and willpower jewelry.

It's not stopping you from clearing it, that's for sure.

Kidz_BeAstx

I'm not saying that it is impossible or that it stops you from clearing it. I am saying that it is way easier. I have a good rotation. I apply my dots and my buffs every 10 seconds, and medium weave/main dps in between. I have good damage. My guild leader was in Dark Shade Caverns 2 for like 4 or 5 hours, which is ridiculous, I come in there and we finish the Netch boss in 10 minutes. People applaud me for my DPS and the people that do applaud me are players who don't know what good damage is, never been dps tested, never ran a trial, never ran VMA. I am only presentable to noobs nonetheless, but when it comes to the pros, I am not comparable at all to them. Do you know why that is? It's because I don't have bis the same way that they do. I am forced to run around with a half PvP set, half PvE because I'm not using a 2h/bow. I don't have the good stuff, need one more VO ring and I can stop being a basic *** and go run VMA. Faster burn outweighs mechanics. When you can kill a boss faster than it starts doing its thing, then it is always easier. More DPS is always better. Yes DPS outweighs mechanics [snip]

[Edit to remove bait.]

XGCAlbatr0ss

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

I'm not saying that it is impossible or that it stops you from clearing it. I am saying that it is way easier. I have a good rotation. I apply my dots and my buffs every 10 seconds, and medium weave/main dps in between. I have good damage. My guild leader was in Dark Shade Caverns 2 for like 4 or 5 hours, which is ridiculous, I come in there and we finish the Netch boss in 10 minutes. People applaud me for my DPS and the people that do applaud me are players who don't know what good damage is, never been dps tested, never ran a trial, never ran VMA. I am only presentable to noobs nonetheless, but when it comes to the pros, I am not comparable at all to them. Do you know why that is? It's because I don't have bis the same way that they do. I am forced to run around with a half PvP set, half PvE because I'm not using a 2h/bow. I don't have the good stuff, need one more VO ring and I can stop being a basic *** and go run VMA. Faster burn outweighs mechanics. When you can kill a boss faster than it starts doing its thing, then it is always easier. More DPS is always better. Yes DPS outweighs mechanics [snip]

[Edit to remove bait.]

Lol. Not going to even argue this naive post. Sure Man, keep thinking this and you'll never clear vMA.

Drummerx04

Kidz_BeAstx wrote: »

I'm not saying that it is impossible or that it stops you from clearing it. I am saying that it is way easier. I have a good rotation. I apply my dots and my buffs every 10 seconds, and medium weave/main dps in between. I have good damage. My guild leader was in Dark Shade Caverns 2 for like 4 or 5 hours, which is ridiculous, I come in there and we finish the Netch boss in 10 minutes. People applaud me for my DPS and the people that do applaud me are players who don't know what good damage is, never been dps tested, never ran a trial, never ran VMA. I am only presentable to noobs nonetheless, but when it comes to the pros, I am not comparable at all to them. Do you know why that is? It's because I don't have bis the same way that they do. I am forced to run around with a half PvP set, half PvE because I'm not using a 2h/bow. I don't have the good stuff, need one more VO ring and I can stop being a basic *** and go run VMA. Faster burn outweighs mechanics. When you can kill a boss faster than it starts doing its thing, then it is always easier. More DPS is always better. Yes DPS outweighs mechanics [snip]

[Edit to remove bait.]

Lol, this guy. I guess he's figured it out. You can only finish challenging content with the gear gained from challenging content... wait...

Kidz_BeAstx

@XGCAlbatr0ss You really don't get it at all. This entire post is just saying that more dps makes it easier to do. I'm not even going to respond to this ignorance anymore. I'm done replying on this thread.

I will say this one last time. More damage makes it easier, less damage makes it more difficult. I can't respond to ignorance anymore. [snip]

[Edit to remove insulting remark.]