Auto-Leveling (One Tamriel) = Labotomy PvE Combat IMHO

stomps

Before 1T a few hours gameplay meant all your accepted quests turned into mindless grinds that were far too easy. Zones quickly became non challenging with no risk/reward. After 1T the entire world became interesting again. Sure I can't get instantly destroyed by a normal mob, but I can no longer instantly destroy a normal mob either. It honestly made the game so much better IMO.

Violynne

Boboli wrote: »

Auto-Leveling turns the entire game into a mind numbing past time where it simply doesn’t matter what you do or where you go, you are always going to face equally matched foes that match your charcter level and gear. It’s like the game gets a serious Lobotomy and the remaining fun to be had is mostly aesthetics but not skillful game play, character building or strategy.

Going to disagree here, because every player is responsible for their character builds. The game doesn't force any of us to wear/use the latest gear, and having armor/weapons 10+ levels below current certainly changes the dynamic of the game from mind-numbing to challenging.

1T makes the game better for me, because I love the idea of being able to go anywhere, at any time, to quest, level up, farm mats and visit my favorite areas without having to worry about surviving (will never forget rushing to Riften only to be stopped by skeletons who one-shot wiped my arse on the ground).

Never could understand the argument about "too easy" when the players do it to themselves.

idk

@Boboli

Maybe I've played the game to long but it's been over 2 years since I found leveling a characated challenging due to any combat. 1T didn't really change that.

Further, saying there is a boring build strategy in ESO merely says you haven't played many MMOs.

MMOs have one or two builds per class with fixed rotations. Most require specific weapons on a class. And variation puts the players dps into the basement. With ESO there are what people call meta builds but a player can still have a fun build that carries greatly. Though maybe not strong enough for vMoL they can still have fun in other areas of the game.

I get that for you the fun has dwindled and maybe it's time for s break. This doesn't make it worthy of what us basically just another "I quit" thread that will fall into the why's as fast as it's predecessors.

Boboli

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Boboli

Maybe I've played the game to long but it's been over 2 years since I found leveling a characated challenging due to any combat. 1T didn't really change that.

Further, saying there is a boring build strategy in ESO merely says you haven't played many MMOs.

MMOs have one or two builds per class with fixed rotations. Most require specific weapons on a class. And variation puts the players dps into the basement. With ESO there are what people call meta builds but a player can still have a fun build that carries greatly. Though maybe not strong enough for vMoL they can still have fun in other areas of the game.

I get that for you the fun has dwindled and maybe it's time for s break. This doesn't make it worthy of what us basically just another "I quit" thread that will fall into the why's as fast as it's predecessors.

On my not playing many MMOs or RPGs in general, I have played a couple...GW, GW2, Rift, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Two Worlds, Two Worlds II, Mount & Blade, Fallout series, etc.and a couple others with 308 games on Steam (aka I Have No Life ). Since gaming on computers began I have been hooked, yes I am an old grumpy gamer dude, love games, and I posted this topic because I do feel scaling/auto-leveling reduces the sense of accomplishment or motivation/rewards for working to build a well crafted character since the game "looks" at your stats and then adjusts each battle to an acceptable challenge level for that fight...the player has very little control WRT their stats versus AI (PvE), each fight is "rigged" so to speak, they all take the similar effort. Personally I miss being able to smack down a lower level enemy with one swipe as well as work hard to barely best one that is higher level than me within a well crafted game world designed around that premise.

That said, I realize most games do scaling/auto-leveling nowadays in some manner or another and I think it's creating a different expectation by gamers of games in general. Heck I absolutely know it has changed me and what I expect from a game these days. I pretty much know that most AAA titles will not be obnoxiously difficult or challenging. Anymore serious challenges in games are mostly absent replaced by skillful game design creating the "perception" of difficulty by the player, that the game facilitates the illusion of difficulty, I see it time and time again in games I play. I have now been conditioned to expect this more causal experience that has become the norm in gaming. And it makes great business sense for the devs...the more accessible games are, the more people will play them and the more games will be made and sold, it's all good except things have become less challenging and in turn less rewarding for the player as a result.

I completely understand and enjoy many of the open world benefits that auto-leveling/scaling facilitates in ESO with the move to One Tamriel but I do feel the global flat-lining of enemy engagements throughout the game, with little player control over encounter difficulty, is a lost freedom that's sorely missed by some...like this old fart!

Thanks for the comments, I sincerely appreciate the input and comments. Now I gotta go find my damn dentures, time for more Cheetos and Beer!

hmsdragonfly

Boboli wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Boboli

Maybe I've played the game to long but it's been over 2 years since I found leveling a characated challenging due to any combat. 1T didn't really change that.

Further, saying there is a boring build strategy in ESO merely says you haven't played many MMOs.

MMOs have one or two builds per class with fixed rotations. Most require specific weapons on a class. And variation puts the players dps into the basement. With ESO there are what people call meta builds but a player can still have a fun build that carries greatly. Though maybe not strong enough for vMoL they can still have fun in other areas of the game.

I get that for you the fun has dwindled and maybe it's time for s break. This doesn't make it worthy of what us basically just another "I quit" thread that will fall into the why's as fast as it's predecessors.

On my not playing many MMOs or RPGs in general, I have played a couple...GW, GW2, Rift, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Two Worlds, Two Worlds II, Mount & Blade, Fallout series, etc.and a couple others with 308 games on Steam (aka I Have No Life ). Since gaming on computers began I have been hooked, yes I am an old grumpy gamer dude, love games, and I posted this topic because I do feel scaling/auto-leveling reduces the sense of accomplishment or motivation/rewards for working to build a well crafted character since the game "looks" at your stats and then adjusts each battle to an acceptable challenge level for that fight...the player has very little control WRT their stats versus AI (PvE), each fight is "rigged" so to speak, they all take the similar effort. Personally I miss being able to smack down a lower level enemy with one swipe as well as work hard to barely best one that is higher level than me within a well crafted game world designed around that premise.

That said, I realize most games do scaling/auto-leveling nowadays in some manner or another and I think it's creating a different expectation by gamers of games in general. Heck I absolutely know it has changed me and what I expect from a game these days. I pretty much know that most AAA titles will not be obnoxiously difficult or challenging. Anymore serious challenges in games are mostly absent replaced by skillful game design creating the "perception" of difficulty by the player, that the game facilitates the illusion of difficulty, I see it time and time again in games I play. I have now been conditioned to expect this more causal experience that has become the norm in gaming. And it makes great business sense for the devs...the more accessible games are, the more people will play them and the more games will be made and sold, it's all good except things have become less challenging and in turn less rewarding for the player as a result.

I completely understand and enjoy many of the open world benefits that auto-leveling/scaling facilitates in ESO with the move to One Tamriel but I do feel the global flat-lining of enemy engagements throughout the game, with little player control over encounter difficulty, is a lost freedom that's sorely missed by some...like this old fart!

Thanks for the comments, I sincerely appreciate the input and comments. Now I gotta go find my damn dentures, time for more Cheetos and Beer!

It has nothing to do with casual or "dumping down the difficulty for casual", it's not like killing mudcrabs for 10 hours to level up has anything to do with skills. No, the outdated leveling system used by WoW 10 years ago has nothing to do with skills, nothing at all. There are difficulty levels, you know, in single player games, if you want more challenging content you can simply bump it up. So, as "dumping down difficulty for casual" is out of the way, let's talk about how scaling is better than the other system:
1) Immersion. It's extremely stupid when you defeat armies of undead in the previous zone and get rekt by a fucken mudcrab in the next zone. It's just stupid game design. It was fine 10 years ago because people didn't know any better and there was no alternative, nowadays people realized how stupid that kind of game design is, so, no more love for it anymore.
2) Freedom of exploration. Right at the beginning you can explore anywhere you want, there are always places that are dangerous for players, and they are dangerous because there are more mobs, or the mobs that occupy those places are stronger ones, but overall you can travel anywhere you want. People don't like a linear part in a RPG anymore, EXCEPT when it's a very engaging action RPG with outstanding writing, like Bioshock or Mass Effect. As for Open world RPG, if you try to box players in, they don't like it.
3) You can experience everything without outleveling content, as many of us remember, before one tamriel, it's so easy to outlevel content. Players cannot even do dolmens or PvP, or group dungeons, or DLC quests, because if they do, when they comeback, if they do a quest, they get a sword that is 10 levels lower than their level. Skipping quests and moving on? Well, then you will miss out a lot, since many side quests are much more interesting than the actual storyline, you will never know if you miss out any gem, and infact you do miss out many gems.
4) People don't like grinding anymore. Well, some do, but mostly people grind because they have to, grinding is neither fun nor engaging for the majority of players. No one wants to grind mobs for like 6 hours to level up, people want to do things that they like.

I am sorry, I know it's not easy when you see things changing, but it's for the better of the gaming industry

Izaki

When you're level 30 with level 4 training gear on, I can guarantee you that its pretty hard.

By the way, what you're referring to is overworld stuff, not actual PvE content.

Ozstryker

I see op's point, but it's kinda defeated by logic, questing is a different ballgame to dungeons, trials etc... I.e if u go questing in BiS dungeon gear, on your min/maxed char. The open world is gunna be extremely underwhelming!
Alternatively, I for example have two "questing?" Toons that have "alternative" builds that do not use CP's and are only equipped with world drops (sometimes crafted), these guys are for fun, and are! Heck I've even died a few times!!
My point is... you don't have to take a gun to a knife fight....

Boboli

@hmsdragonfly wrote:
"I am sorry, I know it's not easy when you see things changing, but it's for the better of the gaming industry "

Not to worry, believe me I am not some geriatric patient freaking out due to modern game design, drooling on my bib, staring at a 480p 30hz screen. I enjoy discussing gaming and this topic I feel it is a topic worth hearing input from other players, that's all.

Games have changed, mostly in positive ways and devs as a whole are making most all games more accessible to everyone, even casual gamers in order to sell more units. Game types/series that used to be more challenging are now typically much more forgiving where the player is guided to every waypoint, asset and goal with on-screen ICONs and tips pop-up telling them exactly what to do every step of the way. That's good and bad. I like it in most games and I also like that more and more games are allowing players to turn off the COD style, ring-in-ur-nose, pulling you through the game guidance assets in lieu of a more challenging style on an as desired basis...great stuff!.

Just to be clear, I appreciate your comment above, but I am not an old fossil stuck in time, I fully embrace change IF it's for the better. Yes I am old and I seriously enjoy making fun of it, yes I have played games a very long time, but I still build my own systems every couple years and enjoy the newest, most powerful tech I can afford and have zero self-control when it comes to buying the newest games worth playing when released (a bad habit). I also am a builder of PC systems for my customers and friends. My career was computer animation and specialized computer research & development applications and projects using computers/GIS/3d modeling/animation in civil engineering, I guess that's why my passion in my free time is gaming.

I tried to make it clear that my intent with this thread was only to initiate discussion of how things have changed due to Scaling/Auto-Leveling aspect of 1T which I feel as I play (on my 6th character) is simply that it limits what I (the player) can do to their characters to affect a delta (change) versus PvE enemies in any meaningful manner.

Bottom-line I thoroughly enjoy ESO, as I stated I feel it's the best MMO at this time and is on a path for success unlike any other MMO out today that I think is surprising even early adopters and veteran players. It is probably the best time to be playing ESO IMHO.

Luigi_Vampa

Boboli wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Boboli

Maybe I've played the game to long but it's been over 2 years since I found leveling a characated challenging due to any combat. 1T didn't really change that.

Further, saying there is a boring build strategy in ESO merely says you haven't played many MMOs.

MMOs have one or two builds per class with fixed rotations. Most require specific weapons on a class. And variation puts the players dps into the basement. With ESO there are what people call meta builds but a player can still have a fun build that carries greatly. Though maybe not strong enough for vMoL they can still have fun in other areas of the game.

I get that for you the fun has dwindled and maybe it's time for s break. This doesn't make it worthy of what us basically just another "I quit" thread that will fall into the why's as fast as it's predecessors.

On my not playing many MMOs or RPGs in general, I have played a couple...GW, GW2, Rift, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Two Worlds, Two Worlds II, Mount & Blade, Fallout series, etc.and a couple others with 308 games on Steam (aka I Have No Life ). Since gaming on computers began I have been hooked, yes I am an old grumpy gamer dude, love games, and I posted this topic because I do feel scaling/auto-leveling reduces the sense of accomplishment or motivation/rewards for working to build a well crafted character since the game "looks" at your stats and then adjusts each battle to an acceptable challenge level for that fight...the player has very little control WRT their stats versus AI (PvE), each fight is "rigged" so to speak, they all take the similar effort. Personally I miss being able to smack down a lower level enemy with one swipe as well as work hard to barely best one that is higher level than me within a well crafted game world designed around that premise.

That said, I realize most games do scaling/auto-leveling nowadays in some manner or another and I think it's creating a different expectation by gamers of games in general. Heck I absolutely know it has changed me and what I expect from a game these days. I pretty much know that most AAA titles will not be obnoxiously difficult or challenging. Anymore serious challenges in games are mostly absent replaced by skillful game design creating the "perception" of difficulty by the player, that the game facilitates the illusion of difficulty, I see it time and time again in games I play. I have now been conditioned to expect this more causal experience that has become the norm in gaming. And it makes great business sense for the devs...the more accessible games are, the more people will play them and the more games will be made and sold, it's all good except things have become less challenging and in turn less rewarding for the player as a result.

I completely understand and enjoy many of the open world benefits that auto-leveling/scaling facilitates in ESO with the move to One Tamriel but I do feel the global flat-lining of enemy engagements throughout the game, with little player control over encounter difficulty, is a lost freedom that's sorely missed by some...like this old fart!

Thanks for the comments, I sincerely appreciate the input and comments. Now I gotta go find my damn dentures, time for more Cheetos and Beer!

The game doesn't look at your stats and adjust the fight. That world boss has the same stats against a level 3 player as it does a CP 600 player. Players are scaled not enemies. When you are level three you get big stat boosts. As you level these diminish until the boost is gone. You have control over how difficult the fight is. If you want challenging overworld then wear under leveled gear, don't use CP etc... It still isn't hard, because overworld is the easiest content in game, but it will be harder, and then you can craft some gear put a build together and wreck those mobs with inflated stats almost like your favored leveling system. (When you wear gear below your level your stats suffer. The further away you go, the worse it gets).

I personally hate individually leveled areas. Why would bandits in Bangkorai be so much stronger than Glenumbra? Why does a Mudcrab in a max level area have more health than a troll in a starter zone? It makes no sense. I don't understand the idea of going back and smacking down weak underleveled mobs thinking, oh I'm so powerful now. I can kill these bandits in one hit! And then you go back to your higher level area and struggle to take down the bandits there. Are the bandits there some Super Ninja Assassin Strikeforce Team? Why are these, supposedly regular human bandits even on your level? You've defeated hordes of undead, giant monsters, defeated the greatest Necromancer that ever lived and here is an entire encampment of bandits that can beat you up because they happen to be well over your level? I always struggled to reconcile that discrepancy.

Boboli

Anyone know of a good reference for how the game is scaling/leveling in 1T? I see a lot of snippets, many of them helpful, about what matters and what doesn't, but knowing exactly what's being calculated per encounter would go a long way to knowing how best to build and add incentive to focus on certain things. I searched around and haven't found any comprehensive breakdown for what's happening under the hood, so far finding just general info about it thus far. Thanks.

KerinKor

Khenarthi wrote: »

I guess you hated Oblivion too (TES IV, 2008)

Probably, many of us who loved Obivion and Skyrim did so only after using a mod to remove level-scaling, which in effect means there's no point actually leveling-up to be able to see new content.

AndrewQ84

I enjoy "auto-leveling" (guessing you mean scaling) because now I don't have to run Glenumbra for the thousandth time when I make a new toon. *looks around* "I feel like starting in Malabal Tor this time. Been a while since I have been there."

idk

Boboli wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Boboli

Maybe I've played the game to long but it's been over 2 years since I found leveling a characated challenging due to any combat. 1T didn't really change that.

Further, saying there is a boring build strategy in ESO merely says you haven't played many MMOs.

MMOs have one or two builds per class with fixed rotations. Most require specific weapons on a class. And variation puts the players dps into the basement. With ESO there are what people call meta builds but a player can still have a fun build that carries greatly. Though maybe not strong enough for vMoL they can still have fun in other areas of the game.

I get that for you the fun has dwindled and maybe it's time for s break. This doesn't make it worthy of what us basically just another "I quit" thread that will fall into the why's as fast as it's predecessors.

On my not playing many MMOs or RPGs in general, I have played a couple...GW, GW2, Rift, Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, Two Worlds, Two Worlds II, Mount & Blade, Fallout series, etc.and a couple others with 308 games on Steam (aka I Have No Life ). Since gaming on computers began I have been hooked, yes I am an old grumpy gamer dude, love games, and I posted this topic because I do feel scaling/auto-leveling reduces the sense of accomplishment or motivation/rewards for working to build a well crafted character since the game "looks" at your stats and then adjusts each battle to an acceptable challenge level for that fight...the player has very little control WRT their stats versus AI (PvE), each fight is "rigged" so to speak, they all take the similar effort. Personally I miss being able to smack down a lower level enemy with one swipe as well as work hard to barely best one that is higher level than me within a well crafted game world designed around that premise.

That said, I realize most games do scaling/auto-leveling nowadays in some manner or another and I think it's creating a different expectation by gamers of games in general. Heck I absolutely know it has changed me and what I expect from a game these days. I pretty much know that most AAA titles will not be obnoxiously difficult or challenging. Anymore serious challenges in games are mostly absent replaced by skillful game design creating the "perception" of difficulty by the player, that the game facilitates the illusion of difficulty, I see it time and time again in games I play. I have now been conditioned to expect this more causal experience that has become the norm in gaming. And it makes great business sense for the devs...the more accessible games are, the more people will play them and the more games will be made and sold, it's all good except things have become less challenging and in turn less rewarding for the player as a result.

I completely understand and enjoy many of the open world benefits that auto-leveling/scaling facilitates in ESO with the move to One Tamriel but I do feel the global flat-lining of enemy engagements throughout the game, with little player control over encounter difficulty, is a lost freedom that's sorely missed by some...like this old fart!

Thanks for the comments, I sincerely appreciate the input and comments. Now I gotta go find my damn dentures, time for more Cheetos and Beer!

For starters RPGs have no place in this conversation since they are static and don't have any reason to change once released.

Second, I'm raid heavily and think what your complaining about is not a big deal. The changes for 1T were absolutely reauired to make all a he great gear sets (and many lame ones) available to us at end game.

There wasn't a better way and well,

While I respect you have an unfavorable oppinion of the changes, they have worked well for those interested in end game raiding and PvP players looking for certain sets.

Doctordarkspawn

Khenarthi wrote: »

I guess you hated Oblivion too (TES IV, 2008). I am happy to have the zone scaling to my character (or scaling my character to the zone).

@Khenarthi Bad example. And I say that as an oblivon fan. It's my favorite game in the series.

Firstly, the two systems are nowhere near comparable. This is an MMO, that's a singeplayergame. The -type- of scaling, is also different.

The problems with this system: The system was never ment to work this way. It was ment to be a steady incline, and it actually kinda broke more than it fixed in that reguard. Now, you get progressively less and less powered as you level. Many people, new players included, have stated they hate the change. Personally, I think it should have remained as it was.

The problems with Oblivion: Was your class viable? Well, by level 20 you'd find out in no uncertain terms. You could litterally build wrong, level up -too fast-, and be unable to kill enemies that spawned by level because your skills didn't match up, and you didn't have equitment on that level yet. High level play in Oblivion was hell, a scaling system that was refined and -fixed- by Skyrim, as much as people hate it.

TLDR to get to the point: Do you wanna fix ESO's scaling? Then institute steady progression again. Tamper with some battle-leveling. It's not working in it's current itteration. It buffs players far too much too early as a crutch for the fact the damage/resistance numbers are way out of wack across the board, and leaves them high and dry at later levels. If they dont have a good rotation by then, something the game gives them basicly no help with and is why the endgame community is -dying-, their screwed.

Overhaul, the system.

Doctordarkspawn

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Boboli

Maybe I've played the game to long but it's been over 2 years since I found leveling a characated challenging due to any combat. 1T didn't really change that.

Further, saying there is a boring build strategy in ESO merely says you haven't played many MMOs.

MMOs have one or two builds per class with fixed rotations. Most require specific weapons on a class. And variation puts the players dps into the basement. With ESO there are what people call meta builds but a player can still have a fun build that carries greatly. Though maybe not strong enough for vMoL they can still have fun in other areas of the game.

I get that for you the fun has dwindled and maybe it's time for s break. This doesn't make it worthy of what us basically just another "I quit" thread that will fall into the why's as fast as it's predecessors.

I've played a decent ammount of MMO's, and I still think ESO's build strategy is boring. It allows for no variation between Stamina and Magicka.

If your going to shoehorn me into a rotation, playstyle, just make a rigid class. If Twohanded is going to be viable only a certain way, fine, make a twohanded warrior class. If you only want tanking to be done a certain way, do a tank class. Dont advertise freedom of choice when all your going to do is boil down that choice between 'build right' and 'build wrong'.

Case in point, and this is the example I allways use.

I've played traditional DK tank, both now, and back before imperial city. And the closest thing in class based format to it, is Guardian Fighter from Neverwinter Online. Both are essentially the same playstyle, sit there, block, manage your blocking resource, maintain threat and stay alive to hold agro while supporting your team.

Both required you to make extensive use of timing, situational awareness, rotation, and so on. So why do I prefer Guardian Fighter? For one, simple reason.

It was designed like it was ment to be played. It's entirely possible, in ESO, to walk into a dungeon with a setup that simply does not work, and it happens more often then not because of how the game is advertised.

And, to defy your earlier comment, guardian fighter had -three- builds per class, a straightforward tank tree with tank bonuses, a straight up offensive build which could actually do comparable damage, and a tactician build focusing on movement and crowd control effects for PVP.

Honestly, ESO is the only one I see that offers so much choice, yet is limited so badly.

Khenarthi

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

I guess you hated Oblivion too (TES IV, 2008). I am happy to have the zone scaling to my character (or scaling my character to the zone).

@Khenarthi Bad example. And I say that as an oblivon fan. It's my favorite game in the series.

Firstly, the two systems are nowhere near comparable. This is an MMO, that's a singeplayergame. The -type- of scaling, is also different.

The problems with this system: The system was never ment to work this way. It was ment to be a steady incline, and it actually kinda broke more than it fixed in that reguard. Now, you get progressively less and less powered as you level. Many people, new players included, have stated they hate the change. Personally, I think it should have remained as it was.

The problems with Oblivion: Was your class viable? Well, by level 20 you'd find out in no uncertain terms. You could litterally build wrong, level up -too fast-, and be unable to kill enemies that spawned by level because your skills didn't match up, and you didn't have equitment on that level yet. High level play in Oblivion was hell, a scaling system that was refined and -fixed- by Skyrim, as much as people hate it.

TLDR to get to the point: Do you wanna fix ESO's scaling? Then institute steady progression again. Tamper with some battle-leveling. It's not working in it's current itteration. It buffs players far too much too early as a crutch for the fact the damage/resistance numbers are way out of wack across the board, and leaves them high and dry at later levels. If they dont have a good rotation by then, something the game gives them basicly no help with and is why the endgame community is -dying-, their screwed.

Overhaul, the system.

I agree the scaling in Oblivion was crazy, in my latest characters I chose custom classes so that I could prevent levelling from getting too high (my sweet spot was at levels 20/22 or something) and it's an entirely different game.

I still love the 1T scaling here, because at least quests don't turn "grey" anymore and every zone drops relevant things. Since I am not a new player I have not felt any scaling issues, all my character were 50+ by the time 1T kicked in. If new players are having a counterintuitive loss of power then yes the system needs to be fine tuned, but not at the expense of scrapping scaling altogether - it just needs to be adjusted better. I'm doing my own adjusting by questing in completely broken gear with only 3 active skills per bar (using the other slots to level unused and weapons).

Doctordarkspawn

Khenarthi wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Khenarthi wrote: »

I guess you hated Oblivion too (TES IV, 2008). I am happy to have the zone scaling to my character (or scaling my character to the zone).

@Khenarthi Bad example. And I say that as an oblivon fan. It's my favorite game in the series.

Firstly, the two systems are nowhere near comparable. This is an MMO, that's a singeplayergame. The -type- of scaling, is also different.

The problems with this system: The system was never ment to work this way. It was ment to be a steady incline, and it actually kinda broke more than it fixed in that reguard. Now, you get progressively less and less powered as you level. Many people, new players included, have stated they hate the change. Personally, I think it should have remained as it was.

The problems with Oblivion: Was your class viable? Well, by level 20 you'd find out in no uncertain terms. You could litterally build wrong, level up -too fast-, and be unable to kill enemies that spawned by level because your skills didn't match up, and you didn't have equitment on that level yet. High level play in Oblivion was hell, a scaling system that was refined and -fixed- by Skyrim, as much as people hate it.

TLDR to get to the point: Do you wanna fix ESO's scaling? Then institute steady progression again. Tamper with some battle-leveling. It's not working in it's current itteration. It buffs players far too much too early as a crutch for the fact the damage/resistance numbers are way out of wack across the board, and leaves them high and dry at later levels. If they dont have a good rotation by then, something the game gives them basicly no help with and is why the endgame community is -dying-, their screwed.

Overhaul, the system.

I agree the scaling in Oblivion was crazy, in my latest characters I chose custom classes so that I could prevent levelling from getting too high (my sweet spot was at levels 20/22 or something) and it's an entirely different game.

I still love the 1T scaling here, because at least quests don't turn "grey" anymore and every zone drops relevant things. Since I am not a new player I have not felt any scaling issues, all my character were 50+ by the time 1T kicked in. If new players are having a counterintuitive loss of power then yes the system needs to be fine tuned, but not at the expense of scrapping scaling altogether - it just needs to be adjusted better. I'm doing my own adjusting by questing in completely broken gear with only 3 active skills per bar (using the other slots to level unused and weapons).

Oh I'm not saying scrap the system alltogether. I'm saying retool it so it feels like your -progressing-, not geting less powerfull over time.

And yeah, Oblivion had issues. I love that game to death, it was my childhood, but any form of powerleveling essentially breaks it.

ookami007

It would almost be better to have the old system in place until you hit CP160 and then have everything scale, but I see their point since it also opens up the possibility of grouping with anyone at any level and doing the same content.

Everstorm

My memory of Oblivion: I lvled up a thief like character to max before starting the main story. I then had to fight a daedra invasion with the aid of some soldiers. The daedra were scaled up, the soldiers weren't. Thief couldn't tank, I shelved the game there and then.

kalarro

I was like you some years ago. I hated everythinng about scaling in RPGs. Hated it in Oblivion (removed it with a mod called Oscuros Oblivion Overhaul).

But, lately I've changed my mind and started likeing it. Dont get me wrong, I still see the flaws and hate them. But I think the pros just outweight the cons.
I started realizing it in the withcer 3. I was so happy to hear it didnt have scaling. But after playing it.... it felt kind of a waste. So much world, so many quests, so many encounters and locations... and I could only enjoy a small fraciton of them, because I just outleveled them so fast....

Scaling content sucks. But, it allows for such amount of content, that at the end, I think it's worth it.

I would have hated myself reading this some years ago.

Spacemonkey

I hate the leveling; I really do, but it has its pros;

It makes playing with new players more fun;
It makes doing dailies somewhat less boring;
It makes for better loot;

But the way the leveling is statistically done, I feel is complete and utter cow droppings.
How you can be weaker at lvl 50 than at level 1 is beyond me. How anyone can go and defend that is beyond me. I'm not talking about enemies here, I'm talking about your actual character being weaker at level 50 than at level 1. It doesnt matter if you've spent your attribute points or not // barring any interaction from a player, a Lvl 1 should be EQUAL to a level 50 that has had no points spent. How do you keep the game balanced for the lvl 50 that has then you ask? Just make the attributes and stat gain smaller. It makes about 500% more sense that faking stats at lower levels and have newbies slowly realize that they are screwing up their builds by putting stuff in all three stats. Or penalizing players for wearing lower lvl gear. That should never happen, you should be rewarded for wearing higher level gear, not penalized for the opposite.......

Im_So_Tanked

I hate this game im cancelling my sub but i will be buying the DLC though. Seems flawed.

yarnevk

You can still have auto leveling with challenge, just combine it with +/- difficulty settings that can be changed on the fly. Simply make a red/yellow/green selector in options. You can go wherever you want and change the challenge as you want.

Without auto leveling the game forces you to remain on a narrow path to be suitably challenged. If you want to go off to red, you get too much XP and all that is left to finish is green, so you have to follow the yellow brick road. So while the world has the appearance of being open, you are indeed funneled upon a path.

Auto levelling is what allows the world to be open, if you join the EP as a Nord and want to go to Skyrim first, you can without getting destroyed by lvl50 mudcrabs at lvl1

Balamoor

Boboli wrote: »

Well I imagine this topic has been beat to death but I just wanted to mention it since it’s why I just cancelled my Sub. The main reason is “One Tamriel” snip.

Thanks for catching us up, your'e so very important beyond every other player that quits. I do hope you find your challenging content in whatever game you end up, just don't expect any dev to code solely to your uberness.

Ozstryker

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

@Boboli

Maybe I've played the game to long but it's been over 2 years since I found leveling a characated challenging due to any combat. 1T didn't really change that.

Further, saying there is a boring build strategy in ESO merely says you haven't played many MMOs.

MMOs have one or two builds per class with fixed rotations. Most require specific weapons on a class. And variation puts the players dps into the basement. With ESO there are what people call meta builds but a player can still have a fun build that carries greatly. Though maybe not strong enough for vMoL they can still have fun in other areas of the game.

I get that for you the fun has dwindled and maybe it's time for s break. This doesn't make it worthy of what us basically just another "I quit" thread that will fall into the why's as fast as it's predecessors.

I've played a decent ammount of MMO's, and I still think ESO's build strategy is boring. It allows for no variation between Stamina and Magicka.

If your going to shoehorn me into a rotation, playstyle, just make a rigid class. If Twohanded is going to be viable only a certain way, fine, make a twohanded warrior class. If you only want tanking to be done a certain way, do a tank class. Dont advertise freedom of choice when all your going to do is boil down that choice between 'build right' and 'build wrong'.

Case in point, and this is the example I allways use.

I've played traditional DK tank, both now, and back before imperial city. And the closest thing in class based format to it, is Guardian Fighter from Neverwinter Online. Both are essentially the same playstyle, sit there, block, manage your blocking resource, maintain threat and stay alive to hold agro while supporting your team.

Both required you to make extensive use of timing, situational awareness, rotation, and so on. So why do I prefer Guardian Fighter? For one, simple reason.

It was designed like it was ment to be played. It's entirely possible, in ESO, to walk into a dungeon with a setup that simply does not work, and it happens more often then not because of how the game is advertised.

And, to defy your earlier comment, guardian fighter had -three- builds per class, a straightforward tank tree with tank bonuses, a straight up offensive build which could actually do comparable damage, and a tactician build focusing on movement and crowd control effects for PVP.

Honestly, ESO is the only one I see that offers so much choice, yet is limited so badly.

ESO has a very intuitive build strategy... that is unless you are following a meta build! Every class is viable as a Stam or magica build, and each class has the option to heal tank or dps.. I concede some builds are not as great at some roles than others, but I can say I've never felt shoehorned into one playstyle or class/role in this game...
In fact the freedom has allowed us to chose and experiment with classes and roles without limitation!
Agreed that a tank needs S&B on at least one bar and Resto staff is a must for Healing, but these can be effectively applied to any class (within reason), I tanked a vet dungeon last night with a nighblade Healer... the guy did great, no deaths and delt decent damage...
I'd be more inclined to say, build strategy in ESO is more limited by players ability to comprehend the structure of their build.

Boboli

Balamoor wrote: »

Boboli wrote: »

Well I imagine this topic has been beat to death but I just wanted to mention it since it’s why I just cancelled my Sub. The main reason is “One Tamriel” snip.

Thanks for catching us up, your'e so very important beyond every other player that quits. I do hope you find your challenging content in whatever game you end up, just don't expect any dev to code solely to your uberness.

Hey THANKS for the comment! Super helpful, please forgive me for posting. If you noticed I apologized in my original post to hopefully satisfy inconveniencing folks such as yourself, but whaddya know, here I am getting blessed with your kind words…wow! Happy fricking day

But seriously, I am super thankful for many others who posted in this thread, taking the time to provide earnest insight and opinions relating to 1T and scaling, it's great information that would not have been easily obtained most other ways. Sincere Thanks!

raglau

It's a bit of a double-edged sword. The combat - which is not great in ESO anyway - is now incredibly dull and can be facerolled on in any char, in any situation. I realise that some TES games had batlle levelling also, but I used to download the add-ons to disable this, to give me a feeling of greater progression throughout the game.

I also think the above point is a strong precursor to the fact we get CP level people in vet dungeons who cannot fight their way out of a paper bag, they've never had to.

However, from the dev's perspective the release of 1T was the release of a load of new content. ZOS are singularly lazy when it comes to creating new content for this game, and the content they have created has all been entirely missable, apart from Orsinium. So 1T was something of a get out of jail free card for them.

From the player's perspective 1T did provide some upsides:

1 - It got away with the ridiculous faction segregation. Yes, lore-wise this fits, but it's a multiplayer game and it split an already feeble in-game population.
2 - It meant we could team up with anyone of any level! This was great for being able to group any of my lvl 50 chars with my friends who had just joined and were at low levels. It most definitely made the game feel more alive.
3 - It opened up the entire world for exploration for all players. I already had this as I'd been in since beta and done all faction quests. But this is a huge benefit to a lot of players and cannot be under-estimated IMO.

The strategy for the game clearly places rapid revenue generation via consumption of simple to develop chunks of easy content over delivering anything of substance or challenge in the game. Probably there are solid business reasons for this, very likely the game was struggling to turn a profit after losing so many subscribers post the botched release, so they need to show their investors some ROI.

I accept this and enjoy it for what it is; a theme park MMO aimed entirely at the casual gamer market. Will I be playing it forever? No, everytime a decent single player RPG arrives - such as Witcher 3 - I ditch ESO. It's just a stop gap game until a proper TES game is released. I in fact play FF14 more than ESO, as I consider that a far more coherent game. But ESO does serve a purpose for a quick Elder Scrolls fix, we just need to set our expectations at quite a low level with this game, to avoid becoming frustrated.

Uviryth

While I actually like scaled content, he has a point. World-PVE in this game is ridiculously easy. Compared to ESO, even WoW is challenging. And thats not a good thing.

Boboli

praglaud wrote: »

It's a bit of a double-edged sword. The combat - which is not great in ESO anyway - is now incredibly dull and can be facerolled on in any char, in any situation. I realise that some TES games had batlle levelling also, but I used to download the add-ons to disable this, to give me a feeling of greater progression throughout the game.

I also think the above point is a strong precursor to the fact we get CP level people in vet dungeons who cannot fight their way out of a paper bag, they've never had to.

However, from the dev's perspective the release of 1T was the release of a load of new content. ZOS are singularly lazy when it comes to creating new content for this game, and the content they have created has all been entirely missable, apart from Orsinium. So 1T was something of a get out of jail free card for them.

From the player's perspective 1T did provide some upsides:

1 - It got away with the ridiculous faction segregation. Yes, lore-wise this fits, but it's a multiplayer game and it split an already feeble in-game population.
2 - It meant we could team up with anyone of any level! This was great for being able to group any of my lvl 50 chars with my friends who had just joined and were at low levels. It most definitely made the game feel more alive.
3 - It opened up the entire world for exploration for all players. I already had this as I'd been in since beta and done all faction quests. But this is a huge benefit to a lot of players and cannot be under-estimated IMO.

The strategy for the game clearly places rapid revenue generation via consumption of simple to develop chunks of easy content over delivering anything of substance or challenge in the game. Probably there are solid business reasons for this, very likely the game was struggling to turn a profit after losing so many subscribers post the botched release, so they need to show their investors some ROI.

I accept this and enjoy it for what it is; a theme park MMO aimed entirely at the casual gamer market. Will I be playing it forever? No, everytime a decent single player RPG arrives - such as Witcher 3 - I ditch ESO. It's just a stop gap game until a proper TES game is released. I in fact play FF14 more than ESO, as I consider that a far more coherent game. But ESO does serve a purpose for a quick Elder Scrolls fix, we just need to set our expectations at quite a low level with this game, to avoid becoming frustrated.

Excellent post. I agree in virtually all aspects. I DO feel 1T is a primary reason ESO is seeing new life as well new content being rolled out in a fairly quick pace. The enhanced freedom of spatial access and exploration anywhere at anytime along with greater ease of grouping across levels all makes sense and has created a better game accessible by more gamers, I truly get all that. The trade off that I wish didn't have to exist is relatively flat-lined, mind-numbing combat with the transfer of control for "battle-versus difficulty" aspects of the game being taken from the player and handed over to the game's coding/AI. The other issue of higher level characters becoming relatively weaker is also a real annoyance and one I really think should be fixed/adjusted.

I am looking forward to the new Morrowind expansion and I know I will continue to play ESO for the current MMO "fix" until another diversion comes up. I have other games waiting to be played but right now ESO has been my MMO game of choice, there's no disputing the quality in ESO at most every level. I too prefer a Witcher type game to most MMOs in general if one is laying around waiting to be played.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post, I have learned a lot from this thread, from many like you who have taken time to share their thoughts and knowledge, making time spent In-Game more enjoyable, great stuff!

STEVIL

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

When you're level 30 with level 4 training gear on, I can guarantee you that its pretty hard.

By the way, what you're referring to is overworld stuff, not actual PvE content.

Exactly!!!

When i see this about 1T "but I do feel the global flat-lining of enemy engagements throughout the game, with little player control over encounter difficulty, is a lost freedom that's sorely missed by some...like this old fart!" my mind pictures someone in good sets, complete sets that they chose and equipped and likely upped quality for and keep up to level sitting there musing over how much control they have lost.

how many threads have we seen about "as i level up i get weaker" from newer players who dont realize the impact of not keeping gear up in a scaling system like this?

Craft up some normal quality level 10 gear even with good sets and traits for your Cp160, unspend those 600 cps and then jump out there and see how "little player control over encounter difficulty" you really have.