Crit with shields and/or block

Hurika

Correct me if I'm wrong but someone with a shield and someone blocking cannot be crit correct? I understand that "shields can't crit and block can't crit" is the reasoning.

If they are immune to crits from other players should they be allowed to crit? This is ONLY in the PvP context (not PvE). Not looking for x class is better or worse than y. But some logic reasoning behind your vote would be appreciated. Especially if there are stats of any kind to help justify one way or the other.

Thought it would be interesting to see how the count comes out. I realize some will be biased but hey that's the internet.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

You can crit someone that is blocking.

I would be okay with shields being crit if you gave them the same resist as normal health.

Hurika

I thought only dots could crit on blocking targets and not regular attacks but I could be wrong and if you're correct folks should take that into account when voting/responding. Good point.

Domander

Hurika wrote: »

I thought only dots could crit on blocking targets and not regular attacks but I could be wrong and if you're correct folks should take that into account when voting/responding. Good point.

Dots and ground aoe both go through/crit against a blocking target, also shields get no benefit of resists.

Minalan

Yet again, the OP doesn't even understand what he's posted a poll about.

Now let's see how many more people that don't understand basic game mechanics weigh in on this with their 'valuable informed opinions'.

I'd say more but I'm already on probation...

Vaoh

This is an odd poll. It's also based on misinformation

I'll clarify:
• A blocking opponent can be critically hit.
• A shielded opponent cannot be critically hit.
• Any player or NPC can be critically hit if not shielded.

It balances out because shields have 0 resistance values, meaning they inherently drain much faster from sources of damage than health would. In order to effectively use shields, your health/resistances will suffer (unless it's Sun Shield or Bone Shield).

Xeniph

Vaoh wrote: »

This is an odd poll. It's also based on misinformation

I'll clarify:
• A blocking opponent can be critically hit.
• A shielded opponent cannot be critically hit.
• Any player or NPC can be critically hit if not shielded.

It balances out because shields have 0 resistance values, meaning they inherently drain much faster from sources of damage than health would. In order to effectively use shields, your health/resistances will suffer (unless it's Sun Shield or Bone Shield).

While a blocking target can be crit, it is only with abilities that can't be blocked. So it's a bit misleading.

Also, as for shields, there is absolutely no sacrifice needed for most of them, though the ones that scale off max health do require a bit of a sacrifice.

Also, due to how shield refreshing works currently. The fact that shields (for the most part) lack resistances is a moot point. As the full shielded amount can be refreshed at any point. To top that off, all shields are sporting (essentially) 3500 Impen, pushing crit off the table while active.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Xeniph wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

This is an odd poll. It's also based on misinformation

I'll clarify:
• A blocking opponent can be critically hit.
• A shielded opponent cannot be critically hit.
• Any player or NPC can be critically hit if not shielded.

It balances out because shields have 0 resistance values, meaning they inherently drain much faster from sources of damage than health would. In order to effectively use shields, your health/resistances will suffer (unless it's Sun Shield or Bone Shield).

While a blocking target can be crit, it is only with abilities that can't be blocked. So it's a bit misleading.

Also, as for shields, there is absolutely no sacrifice needed for most of them, though the ones that scale off max health do require a bit of a sacrifice.

Also, due to how shield refreshing works currently. The fact that shields (for the most part) lack resistances is a moot point. As the full shielded amount can be refreshed at any point. To top that off, all shields are sporting (essentially) 3500 Impen, pushing crit off the table while active.

You can crit with all attacks against someone who is blocking.

See here-


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2927454#Comment_2927454

And wards have 100% crit negation, way more then you can get in inpen, which you can learn about here-


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-and-list-of-options-updated-for-homestead/p1

Specifically this-

Finding out what the % per resistance was was not easy but from my testing I have found that it is 68(if someone else has a different number I would love to see it.). This means that 100 points into Resistant gives you ~25% critical hit resistance. The total amount of critical hit resistance possible is 5067 or 74.5%. I now want to make something perfectly clear, THERE IS NO CRITICAL RESISTANCE HARD CAP! Ok? Ok! There isn't even enough critical resistance available to justify having it. Max resistance is 74.5% and highest possible critical damage modifier is over 100%.

Domander

Xeniph wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

This is an odd poll. It's also based on misinformation

I'll clarify:
• A blocking opponent can be critically hit.
• A shielded opponent cannot be critically hit.
• Any player or NPC can be critically hit if not shielded.

It balances out because shields have 0 resistance values, meaning they inherently drain much faster from sources of damage than health would. In order to effectively use shields, your health/resistances will suffer (unless it's Sun Shield or Bone Shield).

While a blocking target can be crit, it is only with abilities that can't be blocked. So it's a bit misleading.

Also, as for shields, there is absolutely no sacrifice needed for most of them, though the ones that scale off max health do require a bit of a sacrifice.

Also, due to how shield refreshing works currently. The fact that shields (for the most part) lack resistances is a moot point. As the full shielded amount can be refreshed at any point. To top that off, all shields are sporting (essentially) 3500 Impen, pushing crit off the table while active.

when not stunned/ or attacking/ or out of resources.... that's almost like saying you can heal at any point....

iseko

Player who is blocking and/or has shields SHOULD be allowed to crit

Not this again....

Shields cant be crit but they dont benefit from resists either. So while a 10k shield might look impressive, it takes a the full dmg.

A heavy armor user blocking can be crit but the dmg will be cut by 60-80%. The effective hitpoints are much higher.

So a 5k base dmg attack will hit for the full 5k on a shield. if that same 5k attack hits a heavy armor user whilst blocking. Even if it crits, it will only do 1.5-3k dmg. Assuming he has no impen. So effective hitpoints are much higher.

Dodge roll math is simple: 0 incoming dmg if the attack is dodgeable.

Shields are strong but limited. You can only negate 10k dps if your shield is 10k. Thats it. So in a 1v1 very strong. In a 1v2/3 its useless. Yes you can stack shields but that is only strong if the incoming dps does not exceed the value of the strongest shield.

Smallcale shields are strong. Large scale they are weak.

Blocking targets can be crit.

Edit: i dont play a sorc. When fighting a sorc you are fighting their stam pool. Not their mag or health.

Synapsis123

It's like no one read what the OP even posted. He was asking if the player with the shields up should have the ability to crit or not. He wasn't asking if shields should be critable.

Sharee

Player who is blocking and/or has shields SHOULD be allowed to crit

Why stop at crits?

I mean, if the logic is "if he cannot be crit, he should not be able to cause crits himself", why not extend this to dealing damage as well?

"If you are taking no damage to your hitpoints because you have a shield up, you should not be able to do any damage to enemy hitpoints either"!

Ashamray

I think you can critically hit a magic shield but crit modifier will be 1, not 1.5, right?

Biro123

The other thing not mentioned here is that shields do not crit too... Y'know you can cast a heal with a 5k tooltip that could crit to make it 7.5k.. If you cast a shield with a 5k tooltip - it will NEVER crit and you will never get a 7.5k shield out of it - it will always be 5k.

Soo.. shields can't crit or be crit - seems fair.. Any other way put it all down th the whim of rng.

Hurika

Yep I'll admit I was very incorrect on the blocking and crits - that's my mistake. This is only relevant to shields. I apologize for the incorrect statement with regards to block.

Hurika

Biro123 wrote: »

The other thing not mentioned here is that shields do not crit too... Y'know you can cast a heal with a 5k tooltip that could crit to make it 7.5k.. If you cast a shield with a 5k tooltip - it will NEVER crit and you will never get a 7.5k shield out of it - it will always be 5k.

Soo.. shields can't crit or be crit - seems fair.. Any other way put it all down th the whim of rng.

It actually is mentioned. It's in the very 1st sentence of the very first post where shields not critting is mentioned. Yes the blocking language is incorrect - I've already commented, but shield crit was mentioned.

So maybe a better approach would be:

• Shields absorb non-crit damage
• The crit modified bonus damage goes to the enemy player.

Hit for 3000 base + 1500 crit modifier. 3000 is absorbed by shield, 1500 goes to player.

This fits the shields can't crit paradigm better it would seem.

• Shield can't crit so it can't be crit (takes base damage of attack)
• If a player can deal crit damage, they can take crit damage (takes crit modifier portion of attack)

Though the original conversation seems simpler that while a shield is up, you can't crit or be crit.


Also mentioned was that shields have no armor so they take full damage. That seems reasonable given that armor penetration buffs/debuffs/enchants add no value when hitting a shield.

Biro123

Hurika wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The other thing not mentioned here is that shields do not crit too... Y'know you can cast a heal with a 5k tooltip that could crit to make it 7.5k.. If you cast a shield with a 5k tooltip - it will NEVER crit and you will never get a 7.5k shield out of it - it will always be 5k.

Soo.. shields can't crit or be crit - seems fair.. Any other way put it all down th the whim of rng.

It actually is mentioned. It's in the very 1st sentence of the very first post where shields not critting is mentioned. Yes the blocking language is incorrect - I've already commented, but shield crit was mentioned.

So maybe a better approach would be:

• Shields absorb non-crit damage
• The crit modified bonus damage goes to the enemy player.

Hit for 3000 base + 1500 crit modifier. 3000 is absorbed by shield, 1500 goes to player.

This fits the shields can't crit paradigm better it would seem.

• Shield can't crit so it can't be crit (takes base damage of attack)
• If a player can deal crit damage, they can take crit damage (takes crit modifier portion of attack)

Though the original conversation seems simpler that while a shield is up, you can't crit or be crit.


Also mentioned was that shields have no armor so they take full damage. That seems reasonable given that armor penetration buffs/debuffs/enchants add no value when hitting a shield.

So it is. I'm cool with that - ie. the bonus crit damage penetrating shields. It makes for a lot more defensive build diversity for sorcs as opposed to simply relying on shields and massive mag pools. This makes impen, mitigation, blocking and heals more useful to shield-users. However to balance it, the shields should be able to take more punishment and so not have to be recast so often.. perhaps factor resistances into the damage they take.. or let block reduce the dmg that shields take, or simply make them bigger.. (lets face it, they will be smaller anyway if this change makes sorcs drop infused for impen, swap some bastion for block-cost reduction, look at heavy over light etc...)

iseko

Player who is blocking and/or has shields SHOULD be allowed to crit

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's like no one read what the OP even posted. He was asking if the player with the shields up should have the ability to crit or not. He wasn't asking if shields should be critable.

Oh I read what he said. But its a null argument because his reasoning is that shields are op.

Hurika wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The other thing not mentioned here is that shields do not crit too... Y'know you can cast a heal with a 5k tooltip that could crit to make it 7.5k.. If you cast a shield with a 5k tooltip - it will NEVER crit and you will never get a 7.5k shield out of it - it will always be 5k.

Soo.. shields can't crit or be crit - seems fair.. Any other way put it all down th the whim of rng.

It actually is mentioned. It's in the very 1st sentence of the very first post where shields not critting is mentioned. Yes the blocking language is incorrect - I've already commented, but shield crit was mentioned.

So maybe a better approach would be:

• Shields absorb non-crit damage
• The crit modified bonus damage goes to the enemy player.

Hit for 3000 base + 1500 crit modifier. 3000 is absorbed by shield, 1500 goes to player.

This fits the shields can't crit paradigm better it would seem.

• Shield can't crit so it can't be crit (takes base damage of attack)
• If a player can deal crit damage, they can take crit damage (takes crit modifier portion of attack)

Though the original conversation seems simpler that while a shield is up, you can't crit or be crit.


Also mentioned was that shields have no armor so they take full damage. That seems reasonable given that armor penetration buffs/debuffs/enchants add no value when hitting a shield.

I really dont see the point. My above post was to restate that shields have their strong and weak points.

To take away crit chance because the shield user cant be critted himself seems dumb... By that same logic: a person using shields should ignore all enemy resists because shields dont have resist values?

Again: using shields for defense has upsides and downsides. No reason to link it to outgoing damage.

Hurika

iseko wrote: »

Synapsis123 wrote: »

It's like no one read what the OP even posted. He was asking if the player with the shields up should have the ability to crit or not. He wasn't asking if shields should be critable.

Oh I read what he said. But its a null argument because his reasoning is that shields are op.

Hurika wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

The other thing not mentioned here is that shields do not crit too... Y'know you can cast a heal with a 5k tooltip that could crit to make it 7.5k.. If you cast a shield with a 5k tooltip - it will NEVER crit and you will never get a 7.5k shield out of it - it will always be 5k.

Soo.. shields can't crit or be crit - seems fair.. Any other way put it all down th the whim of rng.

It actually is mentioned. It's in the very 1st sentence of the very first post where shields not critting is mentioned. Yes the blocking language is incorrect - I've already commented, but shield crit was mentioned.

So maybe a better approach would be:

• Shields absorb non-crit damage
• The crit modified bonus damage goes to the enemy player.

Hit for 3000 base + 1500 crit modifier. 3000 is absorbed by shield, 1500 goes to player.

This fits the shields can't crit paradigm better it would seem.

• Shield can't crit so it can't be crit (takes base damage of attack)
• If a player can deal crit damage, they can take crit damage (takes crit modifier portion of attack)

Though the original conversation seems simpler that while a shield is up, you can't crit or be crit.


Also mentioned was that shields have no armor so they take full damage. That seems reasonable given that armor penetration buffs/debuffs/enchants add no value when hitting a shield.

I really dont see the point. My above post was to restate that shields have their strong and weak points.

To take away crit chance because the shield user cant be critted himself seems dumb... By that same logic: a person using shields should ignore all enemy resists because shields dont have resist values?

Again: using shields for defense has upsides and downsides. No reason to link it to outgoing damage.

I don't think they are OP'd at all - but need tweaked. I think back to 20s duration and give them resist but tone them down in other areas. Seems they would be better if they mitigated damaged more consistently than "burst absorbing".

What is the downside of having a shield? I see the 6s crit immunity and 6s to absorb damage. Takes a GCD just like other defensive abilities or heals so it's no worse off there.

Biro123

Hurika wrote: »

What is the downside of having a shield? I see the 6s crit immunity and 6s to absorb damage. Takes a GCD just like other defensive abilities or heals so it's no worse off there.

Now that I do not agree with.. Block takes no GCD, dodge can be used to ani-cancel an ability - and also, unlike both of those, it takes a slot in your skill-bar. Many sorcs having 3 slots taken up by the 3 wards - as opposed to one slot for a stam build for an equivalent amount of defensive skills (block/dodge/vigour)

The downside of a shield? As already mentioned - it scales badly with number of attackers - very badly. Currently the only ways to help with that are to try to 'protect' the shield.. Which can be done either with %damage-reduction abilities/items (like pirate-skelly) or with avoidance (ie dodging - see some of the stam-regen builds)..

Any change in mechanics *should* make it slightly less effective on a 1v1 but much *more* effective in a 1vx

Brrrofski

OP, you're confusing shields that are held to a casted shield.

People blocking with a physical shield (actual item in hand) can be critted.

Wards (the magic casted shields such as hardened ward, harness magica, blazing shield, igneous shield etc) cannot be critted.

Magdalina

I'd also like to point out that the damage damage shields recieve cannot be blocked. So if someone has 10k damage shield up, is blocking, and gets hits by 10k hit, his shield is going to take full 10k damage(unless there's some cp buffs or something implied before that) and go poof.

So far as OP goes...since while having a damage shield I pretty much can't block(I mean I can but it will have 0 aside from possibly stopping cc immunity but that's not the point)...does that mean that people fighting me shouldn't be allowed to block either?;)

Hurika

Biro123 wrote: »

Hurika wrote: »

The downside of a shield? As already mentioned - it scales badly with number of attackers - very badly. Currently the only ways to help with that are to try to 'protect' the shield.. Which can be done either with %damage-reduction abilities/items (like pirate-skelly) or with avoidance (ie dodging - see some of the stam-regen builds)..

Fair enough - very good point I did not consider.

LeifErickson

Player who is blocking and/or has shields SHOULD be allowed to crit

Ashamray wrote: »

I think you can critically hit a magic shield but crit modifier will be 1, not 1.5, right?

This is correct. For those saying you can't crit a shield, you are wrong. And yes there is a difference between critting with a damage modifier of 1 and not critting at all.

Fulcrum52

LeifErickson wrote: »

Ashamray wrote: »

I think you can critically hit a magic shield but crit modifier will be 1, not 1.5, right?

This is correct. For those saying you can't crit a shield, you are wrong. And yes there is a difference between critting with a damage modifier of 1 and not critting at all.

Does this mean you can proc surge against damage shields? I've read that it doesn't work.