Could we please gain exp for both skill bars?

Muramasa89

As someone who is currently busy spending skill points on whatever because they're spare and swapping to it (AlphaGear FTW) when necessary, I can say this would be atrociously slow if they dumped the XP into 12 slots. I don't try to level more than 2 at a time. Granted, I am beyond the point of doing quests and entering a new zone for the first time, so I have to rely on dungeons, other repeatables and the like.

Youarc

TheStealthDude wrote: »

However, what if we halved the XP gain for skills with this change? That way, the grind still takes just as long, but we don't have to deal with the annoyance of bar swapping just to game the xp system.

Edit: halving XP gain might be extreme, but somewhere between reducing by 1/3 to 1/2 is probably around the right answer.

I'd rather it stay the way it is. Why would I want 2 weak bars that are growing as slow as paint dries? Give me 1 primary bar with which to moderately grind and empower, then I can use that 1 stronger bar to complete quests/dolmens/etc. to then swap and provide moderate XP to the backup later. Every class is capable of making surprisingly potent single action bars ideal for grinding and questing (it's all I've ever done because I despise bar swapping. Don't care how much more effective bar swapping makes you, it really frosts my Wheaties).

Acrolas

If instead of creating this thread, you would have put on purple training gear and placed the skills you need to advance on both bars, your skills would be maxed out by the time the 11th post was written.

There are two types of problems in the world. The ones you need others to solve for you, and the ones you can solve yourself.

White wabbit

Already takes less time than it used to level up and that's still not good enough for lazy sods on here

STEVIL

I am in favor something better than swap to backbar for turn in.

like many others, my backbar may be responsible for more damage than my front, when you consider its buffs and its defenses and heals keeping my character functioning.

My suggestion would be to have all Xp from all sources level skills 100% of the bar in place at the time acquired and 50% to the other main bar. if that also means adjusting XP awards or XP-for-skill-advance needed, fine. if that means the main bar gets 2/3 of what it does now and the backbar gets the other 1/3, thats fine too.

I am not sold for or against the idea that it should apply to ultimate-only bars like overload and ww.

Stovahkiin

How's about no

Turelus

Tandor wrote: »

Enslaved wrote: »

I see no problem with this. Would significantly shorten grinding for skills. Nice idea.

This answers the question perfectly for me. We don't need shortcuts, dumbing down, and nerfs to gameplay. We just need more players to accept that such games as ESO are intended to be played for years, not weeks or even months, so there's no need for "grinding" and no need for shortcuts etc, just enjoy playing the game. Anything that shortens the time taken to complete stuff merely accelerates the point where people QQ because they don't have anything to do.

Personally when I am playing for all those years I would rather be doing fun content than grinding mobs to level my skills up because I can't level the back bar ones when using my main DPS bar.

If you want to future-proof a character then you have to level every skill line and every skill to morphing point, it's a slow and grindy PITA because you need to have DPS bar up to actually kill things.

Also this doesn't detract at all from people who are just playing the game an having fun, they can still do that whilst the people doing unenjoyable grinds to level all their lines and skills get an easier time.

DaveMoeDee

kargen27 wrote: »

I vote no. Why should skills advance if they are not being used? You already get a loophole with the ability to switch bars before turning in a quest. As with anything else you want to get better you practice.

This comment ignores what is happening. XP just goes to what is up. If you do 90% of a fight with one bar and then switch for an execute on the boss, you only get XP for skills on that bar. Poor design. It forces meta-play, where you are focusing on swapping bars for XP, instead of allowing people to just play and get XP for what the character actually does.

It is tricky though because if I never switch to the bar during the life of a mob, I shouldn't get XP. If there are a ton of mobs, it the game would have to track the appearance of both bars during the life of each mob with the trigger being the use of even a single skill on that bar during combat with them. Since that is messy, it is either credit one bar or both.

The upside of one bar is focus. XP gets watered down with more skills leveling.

dsalter

i'd personally prefer this.
but i also want a plot twist, skills that aren't summons cannot be on both bars

dsalter

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

The upside of one bar is focus. XP gets watered down with more skills leveling.

actually it doesn't my skills on alts goes up the same rate even if i remove an ability or add another

AFrostWolf

Anything that reduces grind I'm okay with.

Even though I already went through and did all the skills to max with many respecs, I think no one should have to do that.

DaveMoeDee

dsalter wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

The upside of one bar is focus. XP gets watered down with more skills leveling.

actually it doesn't my skills on alts goes up the same rate even if i remove an ability or add another

What about the skill line? Did you check the points for that? People have said elsewhere that there is a set amount of XP to distribute among the skills on the bar, but maybe they were wrong.

STEVIL

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

dsalter wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

The upside of one bar is focus. XP gets watered down with more skills leveling.

actually it doesn't my skills on alts goes up the same rate even if i remove an ability or add another

What about the skill line? Did you check the points for that? People have said elsewhere that there is a set amount of XP to distribute among the skills on the bar, but maybe they were wrong.

As i understand it and from my own experience it seems like the skill lines advance based on how many skills of that line are slotted when the xp comes. Each individual skills gets what it gets but the line advances quicker if multiple skills are slotted.

Not saying that couldn't have changed since most of my skill leveling was not recent.

Myyth

Yes please this causes me constant inconvenience.

Every single time before I turn in a quest I have to stop, press K see what my current skill bar is, switch if needed and then turn in the quest. And sometimes I forget to check, then have to close quest window, then check, then talk to NPC again.

And then other times I completely forget and end up wasting XP on skills that don't need it.

When I do group finder I have to always watch the last bosses health. As soon as the last boss of the dungeon is about to die I quickly swap to the bar I need for the blue random dungeon quest XP. Sometimes I forget or the boss dies too fast and all the XP is wasted on the wrong bar. I should be just enjoying playing the game not constantly thinking about which bar will get XP or not.

As others have pointed out I am switching and using both bars of skills all the time.
It makes no sense that only the active bar gets xp when you turn a quest in or complete a battle.

kargen27

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I vote no. Why should skills advance if they are not being used? You already get a loophole with the ability to switch bars before turning in a quest. As with anything else you want to get better you practice.

This comment ignores what is happening. XP just goes to what is up. If you do 90% of a fight with one bar and then switch for an execute on the boss, you only get XP for skills on that bar. Poor design. It forces meta-play, where you are focusing on swapping bars for XP, instead of allowing people to just play and get XP for what the character actually does.

It is tricky though because if I never switch to the bar during the life of a mob, I shouldn't get XP. If there are a ton of mobs, it the game would have to track the appearance of both bars during the life of each mob with the trigger being the use of even a single skill on that bar during combat with them. Since that is messy, it is either credit one bar or both.

The upside of one bar is focus. XP gets watered down with more skills leveling.

No it doesn't. I know exactly what is happening. I just don't think it is a problem. One button to switch bars doesn't take much focus. Most overland stuff can be handled with two skills even with low level characters. If you want to quickly level a skill just slap it on the front bar and forget about it until you see that it can be morphed. No problem. My characters usually have three skill trees leveled and ready to go before I get to level 50 and I don't worry about leveling skills. It just happens.

t3hdubzy

To me the OP is saying that leveling skills sometimes is work and can be tricky at times. I personally dislike having to fanagle skills to get them leveled and agree with OP. All the extra required is just that, EXTRA.

TheShadowScout

Alagras wrote: »

You guys seem to have missed the point. Problem is that:

notimetocare wrote: »

I use every skil on my backbar in almost every fight. The problem? I dont kill on that bar. Your argument is about as dumb as it gets

No, I got that point.
You seem to have missed my point:

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Want to level those second bar skills? Switch to your second bar and use them! Keep to your secoind bar and rake in the expees. Don't switch around willy-nilly until you finished your training.

I mean, I get the OP. When you switch around a lot, and make your kills on the first bar, you don't get much expees on the second bar. Duh.
Which is why I say, if you train, leave the switching be and keep to -training- your second bar of skills. There are more then enough fights easy enough that you can practically faceroll them no matter what your second bar looks like - perfect for training purposes. And of course there is always the "make sure your training bar is active before turning in questings" thing...
...
...
But the requested "earn for both bars" would end up gaining experience on the second bar not just for those who like the OP may be switching around a lot, but even for those who never use it, and that would be just meh... people would fill their first bar with a good setup, have their second full of those skills they don't want to use, but level anyways. Free advancement, right?
Not something I'd support - getting something for a skill they don't use.

And as I also mentioned, I would not have minded at all if they made a system that was less dependent on XP, and kept track of -skill use- itself. Like in the olden times of TES games. But that's not what we got, and they are not likely to rework their whole game, so its pointless to argue for.

So there we are..

STEVIL

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Alagras wrote: »

You guys seem to have missed the point. Problem is that:

notimetocare wrote: »

I use every skil on my backbar in almost every fight. The problem? I dont kill on that bar. Your argument is about as dumb as it gets

No, I got that point.
You seem to have missed my point:

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Want to level those second bar skills? Switch to your second bar and use them! Keep to your secoind bar and rake in the expees. Don't switch around willy-nilly until you finished your training.

I mean, I get the OP. When you switch around a lot, and make your kills on the first bar, you don't get much expees on the second bar. Duh.
Which is why I say, if you train, leave the switching be and keep to -training- your second bar of skills. There are more then enough fights easy enough that you can practically faceroll them no matter what your second bar looks like - perfect for training purposes. And of course there is always the "make sure your training bar is active before turning in questings" thing...
...
...
But the requested "earn for both bars" would end up gaining experience on the second bar not just for those who like the OP may be switching around a lot, but even for those who never use it, and that would be just meh... people would fill their first bar with a good setup, have their second full of those skills they don't want to use, but level anyways. Free advancement, right?
Not something I'd support - getting something for a skill they don't use.

And as I also mentioned, I would not have minded at all if they made a system that was less dependent on XP, and kept track of -skill use- itself. Like in the olden times of TES games. But that's not what we got, and they are not likely to rework their whole game, so its pointless to argue for.

So there we are..

Re the bold - there seems to be a disconnect in logic here.

there is no connection in this game right now between using a skill and getting advancement in it. none.

When i run crafting writs, i gain Xp and the skills on whatever bar i have slotted gain Xp - but really seriously i did not use bloodthirst to make my enchantment glyph.

All skills on the bar when Xp is acquired get Xp, whether they are used or not in the event that got you the Xp.
All skills on "the other bar" when Xp is accrued get nothing right now, whether they were used or not.

In fact, if i hit an NPC with a DoT that kills them - if its the only skill that kills them - but swap bars before that deadly tick - no Xp for that skill since its on the wrong bar when its own damage finished off the target.

So, pretending that advancement of skill with Xp has anything to do in this game with use of a given skill - is #Altfacts for the vast majority if not all of skill advancements.

I can pop elemental blockade and liquid lightning on my destro bar and swap to mey resto bar with summons slotted and see all the advancement go to the summon and the resto even tho they did nothing.

***

So the current system recognizes only the one bar when advancement is gained regardless of whether or not both bars played a role.

The proposed system would favor the one bar but still advance at some rate the other bar.

both options have the potential to reward unused skills. They both suffer that problem. So citing that as a roadblock for the new proposal makes no sense.
But, only one option (the current way) has the potential to fail to reward used skills. matter of fact with good play it is likely that this will occur in the current system - barring gamery-tricks with bar swapping at key moments that have nothing to do with skill use.

Current system - can reward skills not used and can fail to reward skills used.
A "pay both bars" system - can reward unused skills but cannot ever fail to reward skills used. (Well, unless the user actual unslots the skills before award is received.)

So moving to a pay-both-vbars seems to move closer to "used skills advance" kind of model for those who see that as important.






.

TheShadowScout

STEVIL wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Not something I'd support - getting something for a skill they don't use.

Re the bold - there seems to be a disconnect in logic here.

there is no connection in this game right now between using a skill and getting advancement in it. none.

True, and I have stated my unlikely wish if it wasn't so.
But that only underlines my desire not to make it any -worse- - at least right now, there is a great likelyhood that would will use a skill you earn XP for, if only because its available on the skill bar you have active while chasing the expees, right?

Personally I'd much rather switching bars took some "put away one weapon and draw the other" time, time people would ill afford to spend in tougher fights... but that is because all this switching around is something I do not exactly appreciate. Sude, once or twice... when you switch from your melee to your ranged setup, or from your healing to your damage setup... but not back and forth all the time during the fight. but i guess that's me...

I still say that I would not want to see any completely unneeded change just because some people are lazy and unwilling to spend time training up their secondary skill setup specifically, but want to enjoy the pleasure of fully maxed and morphes skills without having to spend any extra effort. But then, I kinda believe in working for something before you get it, so... that is my point of view.

STEVIL

TheShadowScout wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Not something I'd support - getting something for a skill they don't use.

Re the bold - there seems to be a disconnect in logic here.

there is no connection in this game right now between using a skill and getting advancement in it. none.

True, and I have stated my unlikely wish if it wasn't so.
But that only underlines my desire not to make it any -worse- - at least right now, there is a great likelyhood that would will use a skill you earn XP for, if only because its available on the skill bar you have active while chasing the expees, right?

Personally I'd much rather switching bars took some "put away one weapon and draw the other" time, time people would ill afford to spend in tougher fights... but that is because all this switching around is something I do not exactly appreciate. Sude, once or twice... when you switch from your melee to your ranged setup, or from your healing to your damage setup... but not back and forth all the time during the fight. but i guess that's me...

I still say that I would not want to see any completely unneeded change just because some people are lazy and unwilling to spend time training up their secondary skill setup specifically, but want to enjoy the pleasure of fully maxed and morphes skills without having to spend any extra effort. But then, I kinda believe in working for something before you get it, so... that is my point of view.

RE the bold and this getting worse - nope.

Right now you can and frequently do get advances on skills that are not in use at all. this can occur by moving skills to the front bar just for advance or by swapping to back bar for turn-ins.
New system would not change that at all really, both bars would get Xp - off-bar half or whatever.

Right now the other side of the coin -skills used - often dont get advance. bets example is backbar DoT, hurricane, the friggin core for several stamina builds that damages, defends and procs surge often gets no credit for that since its often backbar.
new version - solves this - all skills get advance.

The other key difference is this - under it as it is now you often have to slot or are strongly encouraged to slot skills to the front bar only for advancing - even though they "should be" and "will be once advanced" on the back bar by your build plan. that means you skew your build just for advancing and get rewarded for it.

if you start from day one with a 12 skill setup in mind, you are rewarded for screwing that all up until the skills are all leveled.

under the new proposal, the share between bars - you can use your primary planned setup all along, as you get the skills, etc. The half-advance for the back bar plus the turn-ins backbar likely puts both bars advancing pretty closely.

So, to me it comes down to "any skill getting some xp when not used" is not the one issue i see - so it doesn't override all the other benefits of shared advance between bars.

i consider used skills not getting advance and screwy placments for advance only to be each just as important an issue as unused skills getting advanced - actually moreso because neither way solves the latter at all but the new proposal really helps the formers.

Betsararie

I don't think we need this either. I think this is unnecessary

Leveling is already fast as it is, with training gear, even more so. I have struggled to level skills on my back bar before, and implementing this would definitely help some of my newbie characters, and I'm still not in favor of this.

I would probably be more in favor of actually making leveling a little harder, tbh.

STEVIL

Blanco wrote: »

I don't think we need this either. I think this is unnecessary

Leveling is already fast as it is, with training gear, even more so. I have struggled to level skills on my back bar before, and implementing this would definitely help some of my newbie characters, and I'm still not in favor of this.

I would probably be more in favor of actually making leveling a little harder, tbh.

Not sure anyone is asking for faster leveling per se. You dont get more Xp if the skill advance is divided. You just may get more even progression of skills while levelling.

Stovahkiin

Blanco wrote: »

I don't think we need this either. I think this is unnecessary

Leveling is already fast as it is, with training gear, even more so. I have struggled to level skills on my back bar before, and implementing this would definitely help some of my newbie characters, and I'm still not in favor of this.

I would probably be more in favor of actually making leveling a little harder, tbh.

Agreed, I really don't want this game to end up like SWTOR did. (For those who don't know, SWTOR is now extremely easy, with ridiculously fast leveling and companions that do 90% of the fighting for you.)

Jemcrystal

I would like companions. Esp if we could let them run around housing.

Enslaved

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

If you are too lazy to shuffle skills around your two bars, if you're incapable to switch bars in the last seconds or before turning quests in, it's your problem. But it's far easier to dismiss suggestions as dumb if it doesn't cater your very needs or demand some "work".

You really dont get it, do you?

Why would it be such a big deal for you to level skills a bit faster? Not that you only lvl them by returning quests in the first place. This wouldn't be groundbreaking , just a quality of life thing.

mariskaas

I think it's fine. My bar I use the most during battle levels up fast enough because of that, and for quest turn in i switch to my lesser used backup bar. It levels a lot slower but thats the weapon skill-line. If i want to level a skill because I really want to unlock the next one (like with ward for sorc) I just ran with pets for a while it was unlocked in no-time.

Olupajmibanan

I remember times when Training trait was increasing xp gains from all sources (including quests). I had full epic low lvl training gear saved in last Dressing Room slot with skills I wanted to exp. Just switched to this setup before every quest turn, was annoying but effective. This is still present, just without the gear. What I wanted to say, ZoS were aware of this issue so they changed training trait, maybe they are still aware and we hopefully qet a change soon. Or maybe I am naive :-D

Actually I would like to see getting xp from kills only for present bar, but xp from quests for both bars.