ZoS - Failure to Detect REAL Bots

ZombieZig

So my friend who I often play with decided to eat and watch a movie while at a dolmen. As the dolmen would pop he'd throw off a few skillz to get credit... he has been farming his area set for a month with no luck.

Apparently some super smart GM from Zenimax banned him for 72 hours for botting.

So apparently its CLEAR you have no detection what so ever. He told me a GM had written him personally witnessing him bot. I call BS on that Zo$.

A Bot is a character who is using a macro or 3rd party application to automate features in game. Your right, Botting is bad. But you dont know your butts from a hole in the ground if this is how you treat your paying customers.

So the concern spreds... im in cyro lots and like to eat like all humans usually do. If i AFK and press jump every 5m will i get banned for botting too?

In a already broken game, make sure you can at least cover the basics guys. Seriously disappointed in you.

VanillaSoap

"My friend"
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

ZombieZig

VanillaSoap wrote: »

"My friend"
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Im unable to use names.

Elsonso

Yeah, would be cool to hear the ZOS side of this.

Jim_Pipp

I'm sorry your friend got caught in the cross fire, but zos have my entire support. Your friend was witnested acting almost exactly like a bot and a gm took the appropriate action. It sucks for your friend, but I bet the people doing those dolmens are glad they have gone.

DHale

Afk playing is also against the term of service. So next time he won't be doing that.

ZombieZig

Jim_Pipp wrote: »

I'm sorry your friend got caught in the cross fire, but zos have my entire support. Your friend was witnested acting almost exactly like a bot and a gm took the appropriate action. It sucks for your friend, but I bet the people doing those dolmens are glad they have gone.

Its because of ZoS's RNG that he sat at a dolmen. He has been grinding his set with a subscription yielding nothing for 2 months.

We are all at risk here. This is a witch hunt because of the lack of detection on Zo$s part. Imagine being reported for standing still and once in awhile firing attacks at random.... OMG!

Just put yourself in his shoes. Legit paying player. Bam your banned for 72 hours and you arent allowed to counter complain.

ZombieZig

DHale wrote: »

Afk playing is also against the term of service. So next time he won't be doing that.

Sorry, are you sarcastic? Gosh i hope so.

DHale

Not being sarcastic at all. Jessica wrote a post about. Now you know and so does your friend.

ZombieZig

DHale wrote: »

Not being sarcastic at all. Jessica wrote a post about. Now you know and so does your friend.

Thats INSANE!
*log off to poop?*
*log off for phone call?*
*Log off for eating?*
*Log off while writing this post?*

This would be the first game in history to ban its subscribers for being AFK.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom i cannot find this in the TOS and i cannot find your post discussing this. Can you please confirm and link?

Elsonso

ZombieZig wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Not being sarcastic at all. Jessica wrote a post about. Now you know and so does your friend.

Thats INSANE!
*log off to poop?*
*log off for phone call?*
*Log off for eating?*
*Log off while writing this post?*

This would be the first game in history to ban its subscribers for being AFK.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom i cannot find this in the TOS and i cannot find your post discussing this. Can you please confirm and link?

AFK playing. Being AFK is not against the ToS. While you are away, your character better not be playing.

ZombieZig

Yeah I can't find anything either in the terms of service regarding this.

But I would like to emphasize on this Witch Hunt that zenimax currently does not have proper detection methods. That's clear to see after this case. I'm not kidding he actually didn't cheat or use Bots. He was simply eating and watching a movie while playing a game.

ZombieZig

And for those that may Wonder why I'm here posting. He is unable to access anything because of his ban.

I'm very upset at this company for being this far along in game development and still having numerous issues affecting every aspect of gameplay since release. They are about to release another DLC and we still have problems that they fail to acknowledge. Seeing one of my friends banned in this way only furthermore upsets me as they have had plenty of time to implement proper methods of detection but has clearly decided it is not important enough.

SirAndy

Good, finally someone is doing something ...

Elsonso

ZombieZig wrote: »

But I would like to emphasize on this Witch Hunt that zenimax currently does not have proper detection methods. That's clear to see after this case. I'm not kidding he actually didn't cheat or use Bots. He was simply eating and watching a movie while playing a game.

It is not really a Witch Hunt. Assuming this happened exactly as stated, what is clear is that, for all intents and purposes, the friend was acting like a bot. This is why I keep telling people to not act like bots. It will be too easy to get tossed in with those who are really bots, especially if you do it for a long time.

It is a lot harder to detect every possible means of botting than people might think. How can they tell what is pressing the keys? It could be some Lego Mindstorms creation, a stick, or even someone's toe. Instead, realize that it is pretty obvious when there is a human that is actually interested in playing the game sitting there.

If you are bored, and grinding for hours while watching TV, or doing homework, you need to take extra steps to demonstrate that there is an interested human sitting there. Your interest might really be for only 30 seconds out of every 5 minutes. You need to make sure those 30 seconds count.

It seems clear that ZOS is not banning people for being AFK for 4 minutes and 30 seconds out of every 5 minutes. They are banning people for acting like bots for the 30 seconds, out of every 5 minutes, that they are not AFK.

ZombieZig

lordrichter wrote: »

ZombieZig wrote: »

But I would like to emphasize on this Witch Hunt that zenimax currently does not have proper detection methods. That's clear to see after this case. I'm not kidding he actually didn't cheat or use Bots. He was simply eating and watching a movie while playing a game.

It is not really a Witch Hunt. Assuming this happened exactly as stated, what is clear is that, for all intents and purposes, the friend was acting like a bot. This is why I keep telling people to not act like bots. It will be too easy to get tossed in with those who are really bots, especially if you do it for a long time.

It is a lot harder to detect every possible means of botting than people might think. How can they tell what is pressing the keys? It could be some Lego Mindstorms creation, a stick, or even someone's toe. Instead, realize that it is pretty obvious when there is a human that is actually interested in playing the game sitting there.

If you are bored, and grinding for hours while watching TV, or doing homework, you need to take extra steps to demonstrate that there is an interested human sitting there. Your interest might really be for only 30 seconds out of every 5 minutes. You need to make sure those 30 seconds count.

It seems clear that ZOS is not banning people for being AFK for 4 minutes and 30 seconds out of every 5 minutes. They are banning people for acting like bots for the 30 seconds, out of every 5 minutes, that they are not AFK.

They sent a GM to the location. The GM declared him botting. A "Bot" that replied when he was spoken to by the GM. This decision was using a GMs opinion on what he saw visually. Dont we have technology to decide? So GMs are now judge, jury and executioner? Ive seen a few movie plots like this and it never ends well for anyone.

The point of this post is that they have had many years to implement proper detection but it does not seem to register as important to them. This was just a guy playing his game and suddenly all this BS happens.

Im a cyrodiil player. Many cheat inside of it. I have video proof and pictures of macro slicing abilities, people walking through walls and people that remain at 100% health with no shields. Zenimax doesnt touch these people? they surely shouldnt bug a guy farming at a dolmen. It literally HURTS NO ONE.

DHale

Wow just wow, sitting there doing nothing is not going to get you banned or suspended. Neither I nor any one else said otherwise. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3858917/#Comment_3858917

ZombieZig

DHale wrote: »

Wow just wow, sitting there doing nothing is not going to get you banned or suspended. Neither I nor any one else said otherwise. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3858917/#Comment_3858917

You said "Afk playing is also against the term of service. So next time he won't be doing that." then followed it up again after being questioned by "Not being sarcastic at all. Jessica wrote a post about. Now you know and so does your friend."

O.o Thats saying it.

AFK --> is <--sitting there doing nothing. I asked him about the rubber banding and he said no, that he stood still until the dolmen activated and then began to play until it was completed. Then he went back to his other monitor (he has 2?) and watched his movie while eating again.

They wouldn't even let him have a chance to defend himself. Like the GM whispered him and he replied lol.

Flynch

So he was AFK inbetween dolmens then basically held down mouse1 when they came up then went afk again?

'Began to play' is a seriously loose definition here.

ZombieZig

Flynch wrote: »

So he was AFK inbetween dolmens then basically held down mouse1 when they came up then went afk again?

'Began to play' is a seriously loose definition here.

Sorry but your putting words in a sentence that i never wrote. He can add to this himself when his ban lifts. Im not sure what you mean by holding down mouse 1 because he never said anything like that to me. He said when the dolmen popped he'd clear it. Please be constructive rather than trying to take away this posts purpose.

Lake

Could it be possible that your friend isn't telling the whole truth?

ZombieZig

Lake wrote: »

Could it be possible that your friend isn't telling the whole truth?

It could be possible. He is an active streamer and speaks out against hacks and exploits generally. In the two guilds that know him they agree he's a good guy. For however far that takes one these days. He seems genuine and can add to this post when his ban is up.

His Twitch (not his username) is Nonvo.

Elsonso

ZombieZig wrote: »

They sent a GM to the location. The GM declared him botting. A "Bot" that replied when he was spoken to by the GM. This decision was using a GMs opinion on what he saw visually. Dont we have technology to decide? So GMs are now judge, jury and executioner? Ive seen a few movie plots like this and it never ends well for anyone.

Apparently, the "GM" that does this is a member of the ToS Enforcement Team, so yeah, they are Judge Dredd.

DHale

I seriously doubt he was suspended for sitting there. The game logs you off for inactivity. That said the only way to appeal a ban is through the account page on the website and not on the forum. What I see is people endlessly heavy attacking as if they are holding the heavy attack button even when the dolmen is done. That is indicative they are botting afk or macroing or whatever.

Lake

I'm just wondering, because in a guildmate's experience, it wasn't just a whisper test.

A GM teleported the entire "rock ledge" of supposed AFK dolmen players to a completely separate hill with nothing around.

So it was pretty clear to the GM who was AFK playing, since a live player would react in some way and stop auto-attacking if their entire surroundings changed.

Flynch

ZombieZig wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

So he was AFK inbetween dolmens then basically held down mouse1 when they came up then went afk again?

'Began to play' is a seriously loose definition here.

Sorry but your putting words in a sentence that i never wrote. He can add to this himself when his ban lifts. Im not sure what you mean by holding down mouse 1 because he never said anything like that to me. He said when the dolmen popped he'd clear it. Please be constructive rather than trying to take away this posts purpose.

"So my friend who I often play with decided to eat and watch a movie while at a dolmen. As the dolmen would pop he'd throw off a few skillz to get credit... he has been farming his area set for a month with no luck."

Context.

You can't 'clear a dolmen' by throwing off a few skillz while eating and watching a movie.

Koolio

It's pretty bad to think that if I throw my controller down to take out the trash and the joystick to hit the pillow strange.that I'll get banned for it. Especially if I paid my subscription every month for about two years.

ZombieZig

DHale wrote: »

I seriously doubt he was suspended for sitting there. The game logs you off for inactivity. That said the only way to appeal a ban is through the account page on the website and not on the forum. What I see is people endlessly heavy attacking as if they are holding the heavy attack button even when the dolmen is done. That is indicative they are botting afk or macroing or whatever.

Use your imagination. Put yourself in a strangers shoe. You have two monitors. One with eso, one with a movie playing. Your eating and watching... POP! dolmens up time to put the plate down for a moment and destroy everything. You loot after and go back to watching your movie and eating your dinner. Just imagine this unfold if you would please and suddenly have a GM ban you.

And again. Why doesnt Zenimax have PROPER means to detect TRUE Bots. <--- emphasizing this PLEASE!

ZombieZig

Flynch wrote: »

ZombieZig wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

So he was AFK inbetween dolmens then basically held down mouse1 when they came up then went afk again?

'Began to play' is a seriously loose definition here.

Sorry but your putting words in a sentence that i never wrote. He can add to this himself when his ban lifts. Im not sure what you mean by holding down mouse 1 because he never said anything like that to me. He said when the dolmen popped he'd clear it. Please be constructive rather than trying to take away this posts purpose.

"So my friend who I often play with decided to eat and watch a movie while at a dolmen. As the dolmen would pop he'd throw off a few skillz to get credit... he has been farming his area set for a month with no luck."

Context.

You can't 'clear a dolmen' by throwing off a few skillz while eating and watching a movie.

When there is 20 people at a dolmen your lucky to get off a few skills. Cmon man. Please close your eyes and follow this through before making a post like this. Unless your aiming to get this topic closed because of derailment.

ZombieZig

Koolio wrote: »

It's pretty bad to think that if I throw my controller down to take out the trash and the joystick to hit the pillow strange.that I'll get banned for it. Especially if I paid my subscription every month for about two years.

Well thats what this topic is for, awareness and calling foul. Im scared too now. I was eating inside a keep, in front of my PC when some guy whispers me a chain of rude messages claiming Im a afk bot leech. Like wow... you cannot rely on a human to make this call clearly. There MUST be a different way.

Flynch

ZombieZig wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

ZombieZig wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

So he was AFK inbetween dolmens then basically held down mouse1 when they came up then went afk again?

'Began to play' is a seriously loose definition here.

Sorry but your putting words in a sentence that i never wrote. He can add to this himself when his ban lifts. Im not sure what you mean by holding down mouse 1 because he never said anything like that to me. He said when the dolmen popped he'd clear it. Please be constructive rather than trying to take away this posts purpose.

"So my friend who I often play with decided to eat and watch a movie while at a dolmen. As the dolmen would pop he'd throw off a few skillz to get credit... he has been farming his area set for a month with no luck."

Context.

You can't 'clear a dolmen' by throwing off a few skillz while eating and watching a movie.

When there is 20 people at a dolmen your lucky to get off a few skills. Cmon man. Please close your eyes and follow this through before making a post like this. Unless your aiming to get this topic closed because of derailment.

I was simply countering your comment about context.

You said that he 'cleared' the dolmen. I said you can't clear a dolmen with a flick of the wrist and a few clicks.

Anyway. Point being, plenty of people, myself included, will afk for 5 mins then 'clear' a dolmen when it pops. And by 'clear', let me be 'clear'. I mean moving around and engaging the dolmen until it is defeated.

I'm not banned. Nor are those that do this. And i'm sorry to say, your friend was fibbing.