vMA - A Reward System Revamp

Avran_Sylt

So, recently started a thread about Rewards for completing vMA for the first time:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/325545/vma-first-time-completion-character-reward#latest
Which had a multitude of good observations and ideas, some that also referenced the idea of a token system for vMA.

First off, I'd like to discuss how the vMA weapon drops would be changed. They would no longer be dropped in the last chest of vMA. Rather, weapon lockboxes would be sold by the vMA Merchant, much like the Cyrodillic Lockbox Merchants.

Tokens of Slaughter would be awarded at the end of the Final Round

vMA would also become a daily quest, only being able to be completed once per day per character. (debatable)

Edit: increased the price of specific weapon Lockboxes, introduced a random weapon lockbox
Edit: did some calculations, redid lockbox costs, split warrior lockbox into two.

Percent chance of getting a specific weapon, with specific trait
Cruel Flurry Coffer: 6.25% Needs to be drawn twice: 3.12% (x3 Base Multiplyer)

Crushing Wall Coffer: 4.17% (x4 Base Multiplyer)

Rampaging Slash Coffer: 6.25% (x6 Base Multiplyer)

Shield Coffer: 12.5% (x12 Base Multiplyer)

Precise Regeneration Coffer: 12.5% (x12 Base Multiplyer)

Merciless Charge Coffer: 4.17% (x4 Base Multiplyer)

Thundering Volley Coffer: 12.5% (x12 Base Multiplyer)

Random weapon Coffer: 1.042% (x1 Multiplyer, current drop rate)

These boxes would be something like:
Maelstrom Assassin Lockbox | 36 Tokens of Slaughter (2 wep types, enchant needs 2 weps to fully function)
Maelstrom Mage Lockbox | 48 Tokens of Slaughter (3 wep types)
Maelstrom Warrior Lockbox | 72 Tokens of Slaughter (2 wep types)
MAelstrom Defender Lockbox | 144 Tokens of Slaughter (1 shield)
Maelstrom Cauterizer Lockbox | 144 Tokens of Slaughter (1 wep type)
Maelstrom Berserker Lockbox | 48 Tokens of Slaughter (3 wep types)
Maelstrom Ranger Lockbox | 144 Tokens of Slaughter (1 wep type)
Maelstrom Lockbox | 12 Tokens of Slaughter (largest pool)

Assassin Lockbox : When opened, contains one dagger or axe with an undetermined trait.
Mage Lockbox : When opened, contains a staff with an undetermined trait.
Warrior Lockbox : When opened contains a sword/mace with an undetermined trait.
Defender Lockbox : When opened contains a shield with an undetermined trait.
Cauterizer Lockbox: When opened contains a restoration staff with an undetermined trait.
Berserker Lockbox : When opened contains a Two handed weapon with an undetermined trait.
Ranger Lockbox : When opened contains a Bow with an undetermined trait.

All weapons are of blue quality.

Tokens of Slaughter would be awarded at the final chest, or by Fa-Nuit-Hen in the quest reward screen. Token calculation would be as follows:

TokenNum = 18
if(Vitality == 15){
TokenNum+=24
}else{
TokenNum+=Vitality
}
if(InTime == True){
TokenNum+= 12
}else{
TokenNum+=3
}

You are awarded 18 Tokens for completing the arena. Completing the arena flawlessly awards an additional 24 Tokens. Otherwise 1 token per remaining vitality bonus. Completing it within an hour awards 12 Tokens, 3 otherwise. (minimum of 21, maximum of 54)

The final chest will simply pull from the same loot table as the other chests, or drop the final token tally.

The first time you complete vMA , I suggest that you be awarded with a vMA weapon (or weapon pair) of your choice, that is hard coded to have the Training Trait.

Thoughts? Ideas? Improvements?

idk

There is no incentive to clear it other than the first clear. One can get really good at the first arena and clean up.

Artis

Also, within finite amount of time everyone who wants a certain weapon will have it = there will be no rare meaningful gear to work towards/hope to get.

Tokens are good to use for catch-up gear needed to start new content without farming all old stuff, but it's entry level gear for that content, not BiS. BiS shouldn't be guaranteed. Then why not add it to the voucher vendor or cyro/furnishing weekly trader?

Ep1kMalware

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

So, recently started a thread about Rewards for completing vMA for the first time:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/325545/vma-first-time-completion-character-reward#latest
Which had a multitude of good observations and ideas, some that also referenced the idea of a token system for vMA.

First off, I'd like to discuss how the vMA weapon drops would be changed. They would no longer be dropped in the last chest of vMA. Rather, weapon lockboxes would be sold by the vMA Merchant, much like the Cyrodillic Lockbox Merchants.

These boxes would be something like:
Maelstrom Assassin Lockbox | 9 Tokens of Slaughter
Maelstrom Mage Lockbox | 18 Tokens of Slaughter
Maelstrom Warrior Lockbox | 18 Tokens of Slaughter
Maelstrom Cauterizer Lockbox | 18 Tokens of Slaughter
Maelstrom Berserker Lockbox | 9 Tokens of Slaughter (cost less? 3 wep types)
Maelstrom Ranger Lockbox | 18 Tokens of Slaughter

Assassin Lockbox : When opened, contains one dagger or axe with an undetermined trait.
Mage Lockbox : When opened, contains an inferno staff with an undetermined trait.
Warrior Lockbox : When opened contains a shield and sword with an undetermined trait.
Cauterizer Lockbox: When opened contains a restoration staff with an undetermined trait.
Berserker Lockbox : When opened contains a Two handed weapon (hammer,sword,axe) with an undetermined trait.
Ranger Lockbox : When opened contains a Bow with an undetermined trait.

All weapons are of blue quality.

Tokens of Slaughter would be awarded every round completed, two per round. if you complete a round without dying you gain an additional Token. Completing the arena flawlessly awards an additional 9 Tokens. (minimum of 18, maximum of 36)

The final chest will simply pull from the same loot table as the other chests.

The first time you complete vMA , I suggest you will be rewarded with either 18 Tokens of Slaughter, or a lockbox of your choice. This could be expanded upon to become a weekly completion reward, similar to Trial weekly rewards.

Thoughts? Ideas? Improvements?

Could be legit.

Avran_Sylt

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

There is no incentive to clear it other than the first clear. One can get really good at the first arena and clean up.

Good point, but that would limit a maximum of 3 Tokens per character (Tokens are not shared, they are much like Alliance points in that respect). Which would at minimum require 3 perfect Rounds to obtain a 9 Token lockbox, or 6 perfect rounds to obtain a 18 Token Lockbox. A final round reward though might apply more incentive to complete the entire thing though.
Perhaps adding a completion reward of 3-6 Tokens based on your completion time? 3 Tokens for that red text time to completion, 6 for the white text version.

Artis wrote: »

Also, within finite amount of time everyone who wants a certain weapon will have it = there will be no rare meaningful gear to work towards/hope to get.

Tokens are good to use for catch-up gear needed to start new content without farming all old stuff, but it's entry level gear for that content, not BiS. BiS shouldn't be guaranteed. Then why not add it to the voucher vendor or cyro/furnishing weekly trader?

The current system also is in finite time, as there exists a probability of obtaining a weapon. Are you implying that there should be cases where for some players there is no finite time to obtain gear? no matter what?
I'm unsure of what you mean by your statement. BiS gear for this would be sharpened, infused(bow), or Precise(healing). to acquire a full gear piece of any would need 18 tokens. It would require a character to complete a round 9 times. This would in theory allow players unable to continue past the first stage a chance at obtaining the gear, however, it would require them to spend 9 days obtaining that many Tokens from one stage per day. and even then, it's a random chance of obtaining the desired trait you're looking for. So at minimum, it would take 9 days and completion of one round each day to get an enchantment set, which only has a probability of being the BiS item. Admittedly this is a much lower requirement than having a player complete the entire arena for a shot at a desired enchantment set with a trait.

This does raise the issue of a greater probability of the desired weapon, as you'll be able to specify what weapon you get but still get it in the same amount of time rather than having the enchantment be random as well. I'll update my post to reflect this. raising the price of specific weapon Lockboxes, and introducing a random weapon Lockbox.

Memnock

Honestly at this point literaly ANY other system would be better than what is in place right now. After 100 runs , i only received 4 destro staves ( which i keep in my bank as a reminder that they exist ) , 2 lightning powered and 2 ice 1 powered and infused

The thing that is in place now is not worth the effort , although for some reason i keep banging my head against the wall, i would prefer not to end of as one of my guildies , who did vma relentlessly untill he got his stuff , then quite the game for a year.

@Artis As for the incentive thing... how about not locking the best weapons in the game behind an RNG wall that doesn't reward you for learning mechanics , but for the fact that you turn the game in your second job. Of course BiS should be guaranteed , as far as i know , other MMOs do exactly that with their end game gear, SWTOR does , WoW i think does as well , not sure though since i stoped playing it when WOTLK ended , others as well.

You get your stuff , and focus on the next challenge, or some other aspect of the existing content , but wanting to block progression because some people feel that others need to go through the hell they did , doesn't really make any sense.

Ep1kMalware

Memnock wrote: »

Honestly at this point literaly ANY other system would be better than what is in place right now. After 100 runs , i only received 4 destro staves ( which i keep in my bank as a reminder that they exist ) , 2 lightning powered and 2 ice 1 powered and infused

The thing that is in place now is not worth the effort , although for some reason i keep banging my head against the wall, i would prefer not to end of as one of my guildies , who did vma relentlessly untill he got his stuff , then quite the game for a year.

@Artis As for the incentive thing... how about not locking the best weapons in the game behind an RNG wall that doesn't reward you for learning mechanics , but for the fact that you turn the game in your second job. Of course BiS should be guaranteed , as far as i know , other MMOs do exactly that with their end game gear, SWTOR does , WoW i think does as well , not sure though since i stoped playing it when WOTLK ended , others as well.

You get your stuff , and focus on the next challenge, or some other aspect of the existing content , but wanting to block progression because some people feel that others need to go through the hell they did , doesn't really make any sense.

Nah. That's the thing with rng. Some players will go through hell amd some wont. Imo as long as it's behind the first completion idc how they do it. Make people get the complete first. Everything past that is probably an improvement.

Artis

Memnock wrote: »

Honestly at this point literaly ANY other system would be better than what is in place right now. After 100 runs , i only received 4 destro staves ( which i keep in my bank as a reminder that they exist ) , 2 lightning powered and 2 ice 1 powered and infused

The thing that is in place now is not worth the effort , although for some reason i keep banging my head against the wall, i would prefer not to end of as one of my guildies , who did vma relentlessly untill he got his stuff , then quite the game for a year.

@Artis As for the incentive thing... how about not locking the best weapons in the game behind an RNG wall that doesn't reward you for learning mechanics , but for the fact that you turn the game in your second job. Of course BiS should be guaranteed , as far as i know , other MMOs do exactly that with their end game gear, SWTOR does , WoW i think does as well , not sure though since i stoped playing it when WOTLK ended , others as well.

You get your stuff , and focus on the next challenge, or some other aspect of the existing content , but wanting to block progression because some people feel that others need to go through the hell they did , doesn't really make any sense.

Idk what happens in WOW now, it's probably not good since they are bleeding subs.

But all the way up to and including Pandaria - no, BiS gear was never guaranteed. Bosses had loot tables and you could loot anything out of that table. You could also only loot ONCE A WEEK. Unlike in ESO, that has no dungeon and raid cooldowns.

That's only MMO I would even look at, they did things right. Others aren't even comparable to ESO, no reason to mention those f2p asian odd jobs.

Guaranteed BiS gear is a bad solution and turns MMO into a moba or even fps where everyone has access to everything and there's no gear differentiation. I absolutely disagree with this approach don't want ESO to become a elder clones online which it's already pretty close too. Rare meaningful gear is the only and last barrier left. Thanks to it, people aren't all the same, people are discussing builds and are looking for other combos if they don't have access to some gear.

Not to mention how toxic it would be for non-top players who would be expected to have those weapons and corresponding numbers. The requirements of even pug groups would increase. What you're saying is like let's print more money. Of course it will lead to inflation and the decreased value of the currency unit so you'll need more to buy the same thing. In this case the "currency" is DPS.

Avran_Sylt

Oh, And for further restrictions, vMA can only be completed once per day per character.

redspecter23

It's a solid idea which is infinitely better than what we currently have but doesn't address the main issues. Most traits are worthless on dps weapons making every weapon only a 1 in 8 chance of being useful and many of the actual items are unesirable, mostly sword and board. These are the core issues that need to be addressed. When we reach a point where every reward is desirable for some purpose, then we'll know how much RNG needs to be removed with a token system of some sort.

cpuScientist

Tokens can be used to open a particular weapon chest. But not pick the trait. Lol bam best of both worlds. Nice fun token and wholesome good RNG RNG RNG!!!!

Soella

Good idea. I did not thoroughly followed numbers, but I love it in general

S1ipperyJim

Not a great solution. I prefer an enchantment shard reward system.

Avran_Sylt

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Not a great solution. I prefer an enchantment shard reward system.

That's an interesting idea. However it might make several people angry if it were implemented. Perhaps though it could be implemented in the system defined above in a way where if you would normally have an %80 chance of opening weapon coffers, you could instead be able to exchange the appropriate amount of Tokens of slaughter for the enchantment. So, assuming you have a 7/8 chance of rolling something not precise (excluding training) and multiplying it by itself, it takes about to the power of 12 for it to reach 0.2, or a %20 chance of rolling a non precise trait.
Take that 12 and multiply the base weapon coffer cost of 54 by it and get a cost of 648 Tokens to acquire one enchantment (halved for cruel flurry enchantment as it requires 2 for full effectiveness)

To that effect it would allow players to outright purchase the enchantment rune for a weapon/set at 648 Tokens. I would suggest though locking it behind a secondary requirement of having completed the flawless champion achievement.
In total this would require at minimum 12 flawless runs, or one flawless run and 29 basic runs. which some may consider too low an amount.
Would love to hear thoughts/ideas on this aspect.

Artis

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

The current system also is in finite time, as there exists a probability of obtaining a weapon. Are you implying that there should be cases where for some players there is no finite time to obtain gear? no matter what?

No, it's not. For absolutely everyone to get weapons the time needed tends to infinity.

Yes, that's how you ensure that you have rare gear. Some players should never get it. Only X% of players will have it by the time it stops being BiS. Or are you saying that everyone should get everything and there should be no gear differentiation? Then why not just hand it out or sell it for gold or crowns? Are you sure you want to play an mmoRPG and not MOBA?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I'm unsure of what you mean by your statement. BiS gear for this would be sharpened, infused(bow), or Precise(healing). to acquire a full gear piece of any would need 18 tokens. It would require a character to complete a round 9 times. This would in theory allow players unable to continue past the first stage a chance at obtaining the gear, however, it would require them to spend 9 days obtaining that many Tokens from one stage per day. and even then, it's a random chance of obtaining the desired trait you're looking for. So at minimum, it would take 9 days and completion of one round each day to get an enchantment set, which only has a probability of being the BiS item. Admittedly this is a much lower requirement than having a player complete the entire arena for a shot at a desired enchantment set with a trait.

This does raise the issue of a greater probability of the desired weapon, as you'll be able to specify what weapon you get but still get it in the same amount of time rather than having the enchantment be random as well. I'll update my post to reflect this. raising the price of specific weapon Lockboxes, and introducing a random weapon Lockbox.

And yes, looks like that's exactly what you want. What you're saying is that players who can't complete more than 1 round of vMA deserve to have BiS gear. When tons of players completed the whole thing with no weapons at all (before they got their first weapons). I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this. You and players like you want bad things for this game and are a problem.

1. This is unfair to players who got their weapons already and devalues their effort.
2. It will make it so that they are not rare. It will remove their exclusivity and the fact that now they somewhat prove that a player is good and knows his character very well.
3. It will give BiS gear to bad players. Or let's say, players who need to progress way more before getting that gear. Why would a person who can only complete the 1st round need those weapons anyway?

p.s. Elaborate on Infused bow being the best. That's not what most tests showed and what most guides have. You spend quite a bit of time on your back bar to not have sharpened there...


Forget about tokens, people. Tokens are for catch up gear, not for BiS gear. BiS gear MUST be rewarded for hard content, the whole point of it being BiS is only for best and lucky players to have it.

You don't need those weapons anyway, everything can be completed without them and they only give you a marginal increase in DPS.

MLGProPlayer

Artis wrote: »

Memnock wrote: »

Honestly at this point literaly ANY other system would be better than what is in place right now. After 100 runs , i only received 4 destro staves ( which i keep in my bank as a reminder that they exist ) , 2 lightning powered and 2 ice 1 powered and infused

The thing that is in place now is not worth the effort , although for some reason i keep banging my head against the wall, i would prefer not to end of as one of my guildies , who did vma relentlessly untill he got his stuff , then quite the game for a year.

@Artis As for the incentive thing... how about not locking the best weapons in the game behind an RNG wall that doesn't reward you for learning mechanics , but for the fact that you turn the game in your second job. Of course BiS should be guaranteed , as far as i know , other MMOs do exactly that with their end game gear, SWTOR does , WoW i think does as well , not sure though since i stoped playing it when WOTLK ended , others as well.

You get your stuff , and focus on the next challenge, or some other aspect of the existing content , but wanting to block progression because some people feel that others need to go through the hell they did , doesn't really make any sense.

Idk what happens in WOW now, it's probably not good since they are bleeding subs.

But all the way up to and including Pandaria - no, BiS gear was never guaranteed. Bosses had loot tables and you could loot anything out of that table. You could also only loot ONCE A WEEK. Unlike in ESO, that has no dungeon and raid cooldowns.

That's only MMO I would even look at, they did things right. Others aren't even comparable to ESO, no reason to mention those f2p asian odd jobs.

Guaranteed BiS gear is a bad solution and turns MMO into a moba or even fps where everyone has access to everything and there's no gear differentiation. I absolutely disagree with this approach don't want ESO to become a elder clones online which it's already pretty close too. Rare meaningful gear is the only and last barrier left. Thanks to it, people aren't all the same, people are discussing builds and are looking for other combos if they don't have access to some gear.

Not to mention how toxic it would be for non-top players who would be expected to have those weapons and corresponding numbers. The requirements of even pug groups would increase. What you're saying is like let's print more money. Of course it will lead to inflation and the decreased value of the currency unit so you'll need more to buy the same thing. In this case the "currency" is DPS.

If you want to compete on leaderboards, you need BiS. Not everyone plays the game casually.

Avran_Sylt

Artis wrote: »

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

The current system also is in finite time, as there exists a probability of obtaining a weapon. Are you implying that there should be cases where for some players there is no finite time to obtain gear? no matter what?

No, it's not. For absolutely everyone to get weapons the time needed tends to infinity.

Yes, that's how you ensure that you have rare gear. Some players should never get it. Only X% of players will have it by the time it stops being BiS. Or are you saying that everyone should get everything and there should be no gear differentiation? Then why not just hand it out or sell it for gold or crowns? Are you sure you want to play an mmoRPG and not MOBA?

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I'm unsure of what you mean by your statement. BiS gear for this would be sharpened, infused(bow), or Precise(healing). to acquire a full gear piece of any would need 18 tokens. It would require a character to complete a round 9 times. This would in theory allow players unable to continue past the first stage a chance at obtaining the gear, however, it would require them to spend 9 days obtaining that many Tokens from one stage per day. and even then, it's a random chance of obtaining the desired trait you're looking for. So at minimum, it would take 9 days and completion of one round each day to get an enchantment set, which only has a probability of being the BiS item. Admittedly this is a much lower requirement than having a player complete the entire arena for a shot at a desired enchantment set with a trait.

This does raise the issue of a greater probability of the desired weapon, as you'll be able to specify what weapon you get but still get it in the same amount of time rather than having the enchantment be random as well. I'll update my post to reflect this. raising the price of specific weapon Lockboxes, and introducing a random weapon Lockbox.

And yes, looks like that's exactly what you want. What you're saying is that players who can't complete more than 1 round of vMA deserve to have BiS gear. When tons of players completed the whole thing with no weapons at all (before they got their first weapons). I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this. You and players like you want bad things for this game and are a problem.

1. This is unfair to players who got their weapons already and devalues their effort.
2. It will make it so that they are not rare. It will remove their exclusivity and the fact that now they somewhat prove that a player is good and knows his character very well.
3. It will give BiS gear to bad players. Or let's say, players who need to progress way more before getting that gear. Why would a person who can only complete the 1st round need those weapons anyway?

p.s. Elaborate on Infused bow being the best. That's not what most tests showed and what most guides have. You spend quite a bit of time on your back bar to not have sharpened there...


Forget about tokens, people. Tokens are for catch up gear, not for BiS gear. BiS gear MUST be rewarded for hard content, the whole point of it being BiS is only for best and lucky players to have it.

You don't need those weapons anyway, everything can be completed without them and they only give you a marginal increase in DPS.

Yeah, my mistake saying the current system is finite.

I'm saying everyone should have the ability to obtain a gear piece, as it is entirely possible for someone to complete vMA thousands of times, have mastered it, and never gotten a single Inferno Staff, because of RNG allowing an infinite time. Their skill had absolutely no impact whatsoever. Theoretically it's entirely possible using this system for an Inferno staff to never drop for all players, a case in which it isn't rare, as no one has it.

You do bring up a good point on this, players who are unable to complete vMA now have a chance of obtaining some great gear that they should probably not be rewarded with. In that sense, I suggest locking the Token system behind a first completion of vMA.

This focuses more on allowing casual players a chance of obtaining a desired weapon type (not trait), faster, so that they can experiment with it.

p.s. Infused bow is best on maximizing the damage bonus from the enchantment. When I run vMA as a StamBlade I slot my buffs and snares on my back bar (Relentless Focus, Siphoning Strikes, Agony, Shuffle) leaving one slot for an ability. Endless Hail with infused enchant does more damage per tick than sharpened, and as it is a ground targeted AoE, the damage it does scales with currently equipped weapon stats. I'm rarely on my back bar.

further critique and criticism is encouraged.

Edit: oh, btw this Token system is finite for the weapon type, but not the weapon trait.

KerinKor

Memnock wrote: »

@Artis As for the incentive thing... how about not locking the best weapons in the game behind an RNG wall that doesn't reward you for learning mechanics , but for the fact that you turn the game in your second job.

Agreed.

In spite of their pre-release assertions that ESO wasn't going to be 'just another MMO', the fact is ZOS have made ESO into exactly that; just another of the worst type of RNG-based end-game gear grinds.

Dasovaruilos

That is actually a very well thought out and interesting system.

I just think that the rewards should be only for completion, since first rounds are too easy and, as we have seen with AP and Maw, will definitely be exploited.

alexkdd99

Sorry I like most of your idea except on how people obtain the tokens. There should be no possible way to obtain a Maelstrom weapon without being able to complete the entire arena. The only way a token system will work here is if the tokens are given out of the final chest or when turning in the quest. You can take your idea and apply it to that though.

So instead of each chest giving tokens they are counted up as you are completing the arena. At the end all the tokens are added up and awarded to you when turning in the quest.

The first couple rounds are just way too easy to justify handing out maelstrom weapons for.


I would rather just see a mechanic where you can deconstruct a Maelstrom weapon and receive a token. It would take x amount of tokens to receive a weapon of your choice, while keeping the trait random (possibly with a smaller sample size for the traits).

So if you want a inferno staff you pick inferno staff, want a dagger? Pick dagger.

Avran_Sylt

alexkdd99 wrote: »

Sorry I like most of your idea except on how people obtain the tokens. There should be no possible way to obtain a Maelstrom weapon without being able to complete the entire arena. The only way a token system will work here is if the tokens are given out of the final chest or when turning in the quest. You can take your idea and apply it to that though.

So instead of each chest giving tokens they are counted up as you are completing the arena. At the end all the tokens are added up and awarded to you when turning in the quest.

The first couple rounds are just way too easy to justify handing out maelstrom weapons for.


I would rather just see a mechanic where you can deconstruct a Maelstrom weapon and receive a token. It would take x amount of tokens to receive a weapon of your choice, while keeping the trait random (possibly with a smaller sample size for the traits).

So if you want a inferno staff you pick inferno staff, want a dagger? Pick dagger.

Hmm, that's not a bad idea, having the tokens awarded at the end. would def make sure you play through it, gonna revise the system.
Though I can't say that I agree with just the mechanic of deconing weps. I'd prefer a system that awards your for your skill (ie Flawless, and fast completion,)

razzle1184kicks

All they would have to do is keep it the same and apply a token at the end of the last round to where you can use that token to respin the trait - no need to complicate or to completely cater for people that can't complete it.

luen79rwb17_ESO

I totally agree, if there's ever a token system to be inplemented it should be only on completion and/or scoring result.

jakeedmundson

Artis wrote: »

Also, within finite amount of time everyone who wants a certain weapon will have it = there will be no rare meaningful gear to work towards/hope to get.

Tokens are good to use for catch-up gear needed to start new content without farming all old stuff, but it's entry level gear for that content, not BiS. BiS shouldn't be guaranteed. Then why not add it to the voucher vendor or cyro/furnishing weekly trader?

stop spreading this garbage...
There is no build diversity. Every single patch... all players shift to the next best thing.
also... adding weapons to some vendor is not = to providing some sort of RNG safety net for people that farm the hell out of vma.... try to understand that.

You want to feel special? complete vma with no deaths... get the title... show it off. good job. Don't try to convince anyone that this system where many people never get a certain item is working.... hint: its not.

There is such a small # of people that actually COMPLETE vma, even just once... (the ps4 achievement says something like 0.3% have earned the VMA award) and you're worried about everyone having the same thing? Get over yourself and stop caring about what other players find in the game.
I've done vma 70-ish times and received i dunno how many leader board rewards... still no sharpened inferno or sharpened axe.

But no, you're right... people like me don't deserve it after 3 months or 1 year or more playing vma every week on multiple toons getting leader board rewards...

I see you in every vma post... claiming to love this rng hell. It makes it more clear each time that you either don't play vma, or you just like to get attention in the forums by being the nay-sayer.

So OP, obviously i'm ALLLLLL in for a new drop system. Push on...

Artis

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

Yeah, my mistake saying the current system is finite.

I'm saying everyone should have the ability to obtain a gear piece, as it is entirely possible for someone to complete vMA thousands of times, have mastered it, and never gotten a single Inferno Staff, because of RNG allowing an infinite time. Their skill had absolutely no impact whatsoever. Theoretically it's entirely possible using this system for an Inferno staff to never drop for all players, a case in which it isn't rare, as no one has it.

You do bring up a good point on this, players who are unable to complete vMA now have a chance of obtaining some great gear that they should probably not be rewarded with. In that sense, I suggest locking the Token system behind a first completion of vMA.

This focuses more on allowing casual players a chance of obtaining a desired weapon type (not trait), faster, so that they can experiment with it.

p.s. Infused bow is best on maximizing the damage bonus from the enchantment. When I run vMA as a StamBlade I slot my buffs and snares on my back bar (Relentless Focus, Siphoning Strikes, Agony, Shuffle) leaving one slot for an ability. Endless Hail with infused enchant does more damage per tick than sharpened, and as it is a ground targeted AoE, the damage it does scales with currently equipped weapon stats. I'm rarely on my back bar.

further critique and criticism is encouraged.

Edit: oh, btw this Token system is finite for the weapon type, but not the weapon trait.

Skill does have impact. Without skill you won't complete vMA and won't even get a shot at a weapon. But skill shouldn't define it 100%. It's PvE. It's easy to just repeat after others etc. If something only requires completing a SOLO pve dungeon, then everyone will have it if they want.

That way it won't be rare. And we do need some rare gear so not everyone is wearing the exact same setup. All the need to do is to remove useless traits or let people draw from certain chests only rolling for their weapon type.

p.s. That still sounds like a DPS loss because you will reapply those buffs and it will take time + proccing relentless focus on a bar with no sharpened doesn't sound like a good idea. Not to mention group content. Obviously you spend less time on your back bar than on your front bar, but that's the question - does your testing show that Infused Hail outdpses the loss of DPS you get when you switch to the back bar to reapply buffs and bow dots? Cause it seems that a sharpened bow will still be better. Did you test it and can show results? Or maybe got a formula or something?

jakeedmundson wrote: »

Artis wrote: »

Also, within finite amount of time everyone who wants a certain weapon will have it = there will be no rare meaningful gear to work towards/hope to get.

Tokens are good to use for catch-up gear needed to start new content without farming all old stuff, but it's entry level gear for that content, not BiS. BiS shouldn't be guaranteed. Then why not add it to the voucher vendor or cyro/furnishing weekly trader?

stop spreading this garbage...
There is no build diversity. Every single patch... all players shift to the next best thing.
also... adding weapons to some vendor is not = to providing some sort of RNG safety net for people that farm the hell out of vma.... try to understand that.

You want to feel special? complete vma with no deaths... get the title... show it off. good job. Don't try to convince anyone that this system where many people never get a certain item is working.... hint: its not.

There is such a small # of people that actually COMPLETE vma, even just once... (the ps4 achievement says something like 0.3% have earned the VMA award) and you're worried about everyone having the same thing? Get over yourself and stop caring about what other players find in the game.
I've done vma 70-ish times and received i dunno how many leader board rewards... still no sharpened inferno or sharpened axe.

But no, you're right... people like me don't deserve it after 3 months or 1 year or more playing vma every week on multiple toons getting leader board rewards...

I see you in every vma post... claiming to love this rng hell. It makes it more clear each time that you either don't play vma, or you just like to get attention in the forums by being the nay-sayer.

So OP, obviously i'm ALLLLLL in for a new drop system. Push on...

False. Only a few people can run "the same build", not everyone has vma weapons. Or Moondancer/IA weapons in perfect traits.

No people don't deserve it just because they play a lot. You stop that garbage with participation trophies. Back in vDSA times when master weapons were introduced, it was said that their purpose is to have rare and meaningful items (not just cosmetics). And you knew the loot system in vMA, so yes no one forced you to run it for a year on multiple characters just for an item if you didn't have fun. Those weapons ARE NOT supposed to be farmed.

Avran_Sylt

Artis wrote: »

Skill does have impact. Without skill you won't complete vMA and won't even get a shot at a weapon. But skill shouldn't define it 100%. It's PvE. It's easy to just repeat after others etc. If something only requires completing a SOLO pve dungeon, then everyone will have it if they want.

That way it won't be rare. And we do need some rare gear so not everyone is wearing the exact same setup. All the need to do is to remove useless traits or let people draw from certain chests only rolling for their weapon type.

p.s. That still sounds like a DPS loss because you will reapply those buffs and it will take time + proccing relentless focus on a bar with no sharpened doesn't sound like a good idea. Not to mention group content. Obviously you spend less time on your back bar than on your front bar, but that's the question - does your testing show that Infused Hail outdpses the loss of DPS you get when you switch to the back bar to reapply buffs and bow dots? Cause it seems that a sharpened bow will still be better. Did you test it and can show results? Or maybe got a formula or something?

While there is skill required for completing vMA, the only reward for improving upon your ability is a shorter time between completions. I propose an additional reward for completing certain goals (flawless, under the time limit) that are separate from achievements, to promote reaching an even higher skill level with vMA.

When you mention drawing from certain chests for their weapon type, this is the same system I'm also suggesting, just via a coffer system like in the Imperial City with variable stages of rewarding players, rather than one key per completion. Then choose weapon class coffer, get random weapon trait and type.

p.s. You may be right on the bow, I'm just theorycrafting. I normally run vMA with Viper/Torugs/TrollKing/DualInfused/2H. I play a sustain/proc/wepenchant build rather than a pure damage build, slot momentum rather than volley, it works for me.

Vildebill

This sounds like a good idea, like most ideas that contains tokens for Maelstrom Arena. With the RNG is in the arena now I would go for literally ANY new rewarding system not including RNG.

Memnock

Artis wrote: »

Idk what happens in WOW now, it's probably not good since they are bleeding subs.

But all the way up to and including Pandaria - no, BiS gear was never guaranteed. Bosses had loot tables and you could loot anything out of that table. You could also only loot ONCE A WEEK. Unlike in ESO, that has no dungeon and raid cooldowns.

That's only MMO I would even look at, they did things right. Others aren't even comparable to ESO, no reason to mention those f2p asian odd jobs.

Guaranteed BiS gear is a bad solution and turns MMO into a moba or even fps where everyone has access to everything and there's no gear differentiation. I absolutely disagree with this approach don't want ESO to become a elder clones online which it's already pretty close too. Rare meaningful gear is the only and last barrier left. Thanks to it, people aren't all the same, people are discussing builds and are looking for other combos if they don't have access to some gear.

Not to mention how toxic it would be for non-top players who would be expected to have those weapons and corresponding numbers. The requirements of even pug groups would increase. What you're saying is like let's print more money. Of course it will lead to inflation and the decreased value of the currency unit so you'll need more to buy the same thing. In this case the "currency" is DPS.

If not a guaranteed drop , then a currency system that you can obtain by completing the raid and when you have enough you can buy the weapon you need.

I can't agree with doing a run 100+ times and still not getting my thing , just because , there is a need to have stuff that is hard to get.

If you want to keep items hard to obtain , make it through mechanics , or quests. I am again going to reference wow here , but the legendary weapons there , took a looong time to get due to the requirements included in the construction of said items.

But as it is now , even if you are a top player , your skill is still irrelevant , since its not based on that , but on your luck and if i want to gamble , i go play poker or black-jack .

I dont really care about the crates and the fluff that is in the crown store that is based on such a system , but when the looting system for the best items in the game is based on that as well , then you have a problem and another system needs to be implemented.

Suggestions have already been provided , in this thread and in dozens if not hundreds of other threads similar to this one, add a token system , add a currency system that you can gring and then buy what you want add a long and complex quest line that involves killing certain bosses , gathering unique materials dropped from certain dungeons/raids and so on , then once requirements are met , go to a NPC and have him craft your powerful weapon.

Like i initially said ,anything is better than a slot machine based drop system , where 1 guy gets his thing in 1-2 runs and another guy goes 100+ runs and gets the shaft; hell even if you make it to the leader boards you are still in the RNG grip so you can't say , that that thing is any different either. That is not skill , it is luck and you can't deny that.

Stormahawk

Back when I played WoW (during Cataclysm), BiS gear was done with a token system. After completing a raid, you were granted a token which you could spend on a gear piece of your choice. It worked and WoW had a successful end-game raiding scene.

An argument can also be made that taking away the RNG loot aspect from vMA will make it less frustrating and more enjoyable when players no longer feel like they are wasting their time if they don't get the desired drop.

People will not quite running vMA because of a token system; there are still leader boards to beat, achievements to earn, and so forth. People continue to run other vet trials long after getting fully geared for the same reasons.

Edit: another suggestion is to make the vMA weapons Bind on Equip instead of a token system.

Orbital

stop QQ get back in vma and grind k thx bye

MakoFore

some good ideas there. id like to see some kind of account wide achievement for completing the arena

- with low CP. the lower the cp - the higher the score bonus. finishing it on cp300 is a big deal next to doing it on cp600. perhaps an achievement of title at least- so as not to punish players that have done it but progressed past a benchmark

- a achievement or title or perhaps trophies we can display for completing the dungeon with different classes. wouldn't it be nice to acknowledge those that can do the arena with all four classes? alot can do it with sorc- but to do it with stam dk for example takes some doing. and those that have managed it with all 8 classes- well i tip my hat to you- and so should the game

- bonus for doing the dungeon without potions- sure some classes rely on potions for brutality as they dont come in their class- but this should still be a nice thing to give score bonus for

- a rethinking of the scoring system . right now it advantages sorc so much because they can heal and dps at once. rather than dps, then heal- the sorc (stam and mag) does it in one click. hence why they dominate the score boards. its emphasis on speed - rather than efficiency and technique should be looked at. my buddy has done the arena flawlessly with his tank dk - no deaths yet his score is nowhere near my average - with say 3 deaths per run. he deserves a better score than me - i d be the first to say. perhaps an equation that factors in damage taken , damage mitigated and damage output. some classes can simply heal thru the damage without ever having to block, roll dodge or slot a skill to mitigate.

and yes- give us better loot. I've run it 300 times now with 3 toons, 2 stam and 1 magicka. NOT A SINGLE SHARP 2 HANDER MELEE!!!!! yes yes- there has been plenty said on this already so i ll not digress.
( though i did pickup a sharp inferno which i got on my 15th run- so i guess that evens it out in this loot system- but still.)

one thing we ve seen from the achievements, housing and special events- people LOVE titles, costumes and decorations. if we can't get weapons every drop that we want- perhaps a system that incentivises those things thru a token economy would be good. its a really good way to keep people coming back for more without becoming jaded- at least they get something that is constructive and allows a sense of progression- which is important in all successful games today i think .