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discussion: crafted set bonuses
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mariskaas✭✭✭This will just be a discussion between the crafters who want crafting to actually be useful, and the non-crafters who don't want their farming to be useless.
I do think crafting needs something to make it better/give it a reward of some kind. Yes you can argue day and night over which one costs the most effort but it also comes down to playstyle. Some people may enjoy crafting and find it hard to get farm groups for trials to get those sweet sets, some people hate crafting and rather sacrifice some goats to the RNG gods. Point is; both deserve a place in tamriel and at the moment everything is focused around the dropped sets.
crafting costs: a sh!tload of time to research all the traits; a sh!tload of money to buy motifs/sh!tload of time to farm them; and also a crapton of mats. It costs close to one thousand bars to craft a full heavy armor set, so this will also either costs a lot of time to farm the ore or about 5-6 stacks to buy for about 10-12k. Then you need the improve mats, of which you probably have until purple ready to go but 8 golden mats per item in heavy armor is about 400k. If you cannot afford that you will have to wait for it to drop from writs or refine ores which again you have to farm which costs time.
farming costs: A sh!tload of time to farm ( depends on the gods of course but can be ages); the same amount of cash to upgrade to gold.
I'll admit that farming gear might take longer than farming mats/gold for crafting but hacking up monsters also grants you XP while hacking up ores just grants you the ores.
Both sides have their arguments but at the moment crafters are left out in the cold and it would be nice if there were some better rewards for it. And i do think 9 trait sets should be on par, they are not easy to get at all.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Even at only 50% uptime and a 4 second cooldown between 8 second procs, bsw is still giving you a consistent 198 (let's call it 200) boost to spell power and the extra 129 passive. 330ish spellpower is, according to my last math course, greater than 300. Besides that, you aren't taking into consideration that a dropped set will already be purple quality, while, at least on ps4na, it's going to cost you hundreds of thousands of gold in materials to get a yellow crafted set, especially at cp160 where each item takes hundreds of base materials. The crafter has to spend just as much time farming gold to make an inferior set as you do farming for your perfect trait dropped sets.
You may spend time with the rng gods to get that set, but you ignore the time a crafter needs to spend on research to make even julianos as a 6 trait set.
Then consider the minimum of skill points spent on crafting skills, which have no benefit in combat so are otherwise wasted, that a non crafter can allocate into more combat oriented skills and passives.
Everyone is under the impression that crafting takes no time or effort and thus crafted gear should be inferior. That's simply not true,and never has been.
Yes, making a yellow LoJ set will cost a pretty penny if you're not already stocked up on Dreugh Wax, which is the bulk of the cost associated with upgrading to legendary. If you're deconstructing your purples, blues, and greens regularly, those should not affect the cost in any substantial way...
Which brings me to, yellow BSW:
A yellow BSW set will also cost you a lot of money because it drops in purple quality, and in order to make it yellow, you have to use Dreugh Wax, which isn't cheap.
So, crafted gear still carries the advantage when it comes to convenience.
On the subject of skill points:
How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.
If you've been playing long enough to be a 9-trait crafter, you should easily have enough skill points to create a good combat build while having enough points to at least craft the armor/weapons/miscellaneous stuff you want to use.
yes right now both drops and crafted take tempers/resisn etc to upgrade and cost the same - so no matter which way you go it costs a lot.
Now it would be an interesting change and in keeping with the crafted = convenience thing if drop sets required more to upgrade - like say 50% more to upgrade quality for drop sets.
As for skills: Not sure where "need" comes into play as much as getting valuer for spend.
but in fact, my main crafter/adventurer is also a vampire, has TG and DB lines etc so even with the plethora of skill points a "came up thru bronze silver and gold the hard way" has compared to the "hit 50 and leapfrog all those vet levels and silver and gold content" - its not a luxury of riches in that area.
Character has a lot more weapon skills "learned" than has skills assigned to the right now.
I imagine it also depends on how many different types of content you play routinely. different setups needed for solo vs backed up by healers and tanks.
But i am not on the side of crafteds are useless or make them better than BiS as much as i am give them something unique they can use to be more involved in endgame builds - give both types their own unique tools.
No matter what, crafted sets will always be a more convenient alternative to dropped sets. Because of that, it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets should rival dropped sets on an equal level.
By making the dropped sets slightly better than crafted sets, it dangles the equipment-carrot in front of people's faces and gives them a reason to repeatedly do the group content. Since people are doing it continually, it keeps the queue times down and keeps that aspect of the game active. That helps the game remain active and alive as a whole.
I really think this is why Zenimax won't buff them; if the crafted sets were all equal to, or better than, the dropped sets, then there wouldn't be the same incentive for people to continually repeat the group content that they're found in after picking up the quest skill point.
If people don't repeat it, then we have to rely on fresh players to come along, active participation goes down, queue times go up, people get bored, and the active population starts to drop shortly afterward.
The gear treadmill that keeps group content active is only effective if the rewards are better than the alternatives. Unfortunately, obtaining crafted sets is a largely solo endeavor, and solo gameplay doesn't keep the MMO world turning, group content does.
Regarding the utility of crafted sets:
Crafted sets get some pretty unique tools, too. Redistributor, Kragenac's Hope, Clever Alchemist, and Eternal Hunt, Twice Born Star, and Pelinal's Aptitude all come to mind. There's others, but I can't remember the names off the top of my head.
These sets do things that none of the dropped sets do. If anything, Law of Julianos and Hunding's Rage are by far the most boring sets because they're solely there for boosting stats, but don't modify the gameplay much.
both sides of the debate have "unique" end set bonuses to some extent or another - but i doubt you want to get into a 5pc useful bonus measuring between crafted and drops when we start looking at monster sets, maelstrom/dsa and the like.
by "unique capability" i was referring to mostly the "packages" or basic "building blocks" that each can bring to making a build fit in the available slots.
Drops are the only ones with jewels and they have no only jewels for most every 5pc set but also 3pc jewel/wpn sets.
Drops are the only ones with 2 pc body "monster" sets.
Drops are the only ones with 1-2pc weapon sets vmsa/vdsa.
Both have 5pc body/wpn sets but of course the drop ones come with jewels.
As for this:
"No matter what, crafted sets will always be a more convenient alternative to dropped sets. Because of that, it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets should rival dropped sets on an equal level."
For me the argument for why they should be a part, at least equal part, of the builds is simple and obvious - about 20sp invested in any craft plus about a year to learn all the traits - less if you stop at six and cut out TBS and Clever and a few others.
lets put it another way - most weapon skill lines are about 20sp and take less time to level up than it takes to get equip crafting up to snuff.
if there was a weapon skill line that someone was arguing "it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets ABC WEAPON SKILL should rival dropped sets ANY OTHER WEAPON SKILL on an equal level." do you think that would be considered acceptable or good design?
in this case, the convenience is being "bought" by skill expenditures and time to develop the craft.
Consumables flat out from day one until now have always outperformed drops in their area. Where are the folks arguing "but we need to keep dropped food and drink and potions and glyphs better than crafted cuz crafted is soooo... easy!!!"
And frankly, as long as drop sets maintain their monster sets, their vmsa/vdsa weapons and their jewels - they are not in danger of vanishing from builds so this isn't about whether or not someone grinds and replays content etc for drops - not at all. its about how much of their build is drops vs crafted and for how long? Its about temporary filler vs final answer.
And yeah its about a SP investment that should be respected, not dismissed.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."1 -
nursingninja✭✭✭Call me crazy but I think people just rage over dropped sets because that's what they are used to. Most players came from other games like WoW where the only way to get nice gear is to loot it, so they expect the same here. Plus there is some bragging rights associated with looting everything.0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Even at only 50% uptime and a 4 second cooldown between 8 second procs, bsw is still giving you a consistent 198 (let's call it 200) boost to spell power and the extra 129 passive. 330ish spellpower is, according to my last math course, greater than 300. Besides that, you aren't taking into consideration that a dropped set will already be purple quality, while, at least on ps4na, it's going to cost you hundreds of thousands of gold in materials to get a yellow crafted set, especially at cp160 where each item takes hundreds of base materials. The crafter has to spend just as much time farming gold to make an inferior set as you do farming for your perfect trait dropped sets.
You may spend time with the rng gods to get that set, but you ignore the time a crafter needs to spend on research to make even julianos as a 6 trait set.
Then consider the minimum of skill points spent on crafting skills, which have no benefit in combat so are otherwise wasted, that a non crafter can allocate into more combat oriented skills and passives.
Everyone is under the impression that crafting takes no time or effort and thus crafted gear should be inferior. That's simply not true,and never has been.
Yes, making a yellow LoJ set will cost a pretty penny if you're not already stocked up on Dreugh Wax, which is the bulk of the cost associated with upgrading to legendary. If you're deconstructing your purples, blues, and greens regularly, those should not affect the cost in any substantial way...
Which brings me to, yellow BSW:
A yellow BSW set will also cost you a lot of money because it drops in purple quality, and in order to make it yellow, you have to use Dreugh Wax, which isn't cheap.
So, crafted gear still carries the advantage when it comes to convenience.
On the subject of skill points:
How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.
If you've been playing long enough to be a 9-trait crafter, you should easily have enough skill points to create a good combat build while having enough points to at least craft the armor/weapons/miscellaneous stuff you want to use.
yes right now both drops and crafted take tempers/resisn etc to upgrade and cost the same - so no matter which way you go it costs a lot.
Now it would be an interesting change and in keeping with the crafted = convenience thing if drop sets required more to upgrade - like say 50% more to upgrade quality for drop sets.
As for skills: Not sure where "need" comes into play as much as getting valuer for spend.
but in fact, my main crafter/adventurer is also a vampire, has TG and DB lines etc so even with the plethora of skill points a "came up thru bronze silver and gold the hard way" has compared to the "hit 50 and leapfrog all those vet levels and silver and gold content" - its not a luxury of riches in that area.
Character has a lot more weapon skills "learned" than has skills assigned to the right now.
I imagine it also depends on how many different types of content you play routinely. different setups needed for solo vs backed up by healers and tanks.
But i am not on the side of crafteds are useless or make them better than BiS as much as i am give them something unique they can use to be more involved in endgame builds - give both types their own unique tools.
No matter what, crafted sets will always be a more convenient alternative to dropped sets. Because of that, it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets should rival dropped sets on an equal level.
By making the dropped sets slightly better than crafted sets, it dangles the equipment-carrot in front of people's faces and gives them a reason to repeatedly do the group content. Since people are doing it continually, it keeps the queue times down and keeps that aspect of the game active. That helps the game remain active and alive as a whole.
I really think this is why Zenimax won't buff them; if the crafted sets were all equal to, or better than, the dropped sets, then there wouldn't be the same incentive for people to continually repeat the group content that they're found in after picking up the quest skill point.
If people don't repeat it, then we have to rely on fresh players to come along, active participation goes down, queue times go up, people get bored, and the active population starts to drop shortly afterward.
The gear treadmill that keeps group content active is only effective if the rewards are better than the alternatives. Unfortunately, obtaining crafted sets is a largely solo endeavor, and solo gameplay doesn't keep the MMO world turning, group content does.
Regarding the utility of crafted sets:
Crafted sets get some pretty unique tools, too. Redistributor, Kragenac's Hope, Clever Alchemist, and Eternal Hunt, Twice Born Star, and Pelinal's Aptitude all come to mind. There's others, but I can't remember the names off the top of my head.
These sets do things that none of the dropped sets do. If anything, Law of Julianos and Hunding's Rage are by far the most boring sets because they're solely there for boosting stats, but don't modify the gameplay much.
both sides of the debate have "unique" end set bonuses to some extent or another - but i doubt you want to get into a 5pc useful bonus measuring between crafted and drops when we start looking at monster sets, maelstrom/dsa and the like.
by "unique capability" i was referring to mostly the "packages" or basic "building blocks" that each can bring to making a build fit in the available slots.
Drops are the only ones with jewels and they have no only jewels for most every 5pc set but also 3pc jewel/wpn sets.
Drops are the only ones with 2 pc body "monster" sets.
Drops are the only ones with 1-2pc weapon sets vmsa/vdsa.
Both have 5pc body/wpn sets but of course the drop ones come with jewels.
As for this:
"No matter what, crafted sets will always be a more convenient alternative to dropped sets. Because of that, it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets should rival dropped sets on an equal level."
For me the argument for why they should be a part, at least equal part, of the builds is simple and obvious - about 20sp invested in any craft plus about a year to learn all the traits - less if you stop at six and cut out TBS and Clever and a few others.
lets put it another way - most weapon skill lines are about 20sp and take less time to level up than it takes to get equip crafting up to snuff.
if there was a weapon skill line that someone was arguing "it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets ABC WEAPON SKILL should rival dropped sets ANY OTHER WEAPON SKILL on an equal level." do you think that would be considered acceptable or good design?
in this case, the convenience is being "bought" by skill expenditures and time to develop the craft.
Consumables flat out from day one until now have always outperformed drops in their area. Where are the folks arguing "but we need to keep dropped food and drink and potions and glyphs better than crafted cuz crafted is soooo... easy!!!"
And frankly, as long as drop sets maintain their monster sets, their vmsa/vdsa weapons and their jewels - they are not in danger of vanishing from builds so this isn't about whether or not someone grinds and replays content etc for drops - not at all. its about how much of their build is drops vs crafted and for how long? Its about temporary filler vs final answer.
And yeah its about a SP investment that should be respected, not dismissed.
Yeah, I don't know, I just don't see it happening. I'm using 5 light pieces of Julianos, 2 heavy Ilambris, 3 willpower pieces of jewelry. Currently all purple quality. I'm also maxed out in tailoring and woodworking, all skill points.
I'm not personally big on Trials, but I can say with absolute certainty that veteran dungeons are pretty easy with this equipment.
Are you worried about getting into Trials or Dragonstar Arena or something?Edited by srfrogg23 on February 28, 2017 2:41AM0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Even at only 50% uptime and a 4 second cooldown between 8 second procs, bsw is still giving you a consistent 198 (let's call it 200) boost to spell power and the extra 129 passive. 330ish spellpower is, according to my last math course, greater than 300. Besides that, you aren't taking into consideration that a dropped set will already be purple quality, while, at least on ps4na, it's going to cost you hundreds of thousands of gold in materials to get a yellow crafted set, especially at cp160 where each item takes hundreds of base materials. The crafter has to spend just as much time farming gold to make an inferior set as you do farming for your perfect trait dropped sets.
You may spend time with the rng gods to get that set, but you ignore the time a crafter needs to spend on research to make even julianos as a 6 trait set.
Then consider the minimum of skill points spent on crafting skills, which have no benefit in combat so are otherwise wasted, that a non crafter can allocate into more combat oriented skills and passives.
Everyone is under the impression that crafting takes no time or effort and thus crafted gear should be inferior. That's simply not true,and never has been.
Yes, making a yellow LoJ set will cost a pretty penny if you're not already stocked up on Dreugh Wax, which is the bulk of the cost associated with upgrading to legendary. If you're deconstructing your purples, blues, and greens regularly, those should not affect the cost in any substantial way...
Which brings me to, yellow BSW:
A yellow BSW set will also cost you a lot of money because it drops in purple quality, and in order to make it yellow, you have to use Dreugh Wax, which isn't cheap.
So, crafted gear still carries the advantage when it comes to convenience.
On the subject of skill points:
How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.
If you've been playing long enough to be a 9-trait crafter, you should easily have enough skill points to create a good combat build while having enough points to at least craft the armor/weapons/miscellaneous stuff you want to use.
yes right now both drops and crafted take tempers/resisn etc to upgrade and cost the same - so no matter which way you go it costs a lot.
Now it would be an interesting change and in keeping with the crafted = convenience thing if drop sets required more to upgrade - like say 50% more to upgrade quality for drop sets.
As for skills: Not sure where "need" comes into play as much as getting valuer for spend.
but in fact, my main crafter/adventurer is also a vampire, has TG and DB lines etc so even with the plethora of skill points a "came up thru bronze silver and gold the hard way" has compared to the "hit 50 and leapfrog all those vet levels and silver and gold content" - its not a luxury of riches in that area.
Character has a lot more weapon skills "learned" than has skills assigned to the right now.
I imagine it also depends on how many different types of content you play routinely. different setups needed for solo vs backed up by healers and tanks.
But i am not on the side of crafteds are useless or make them better than BiS as much as i am give them something unique they can use to be more involved in endgame builds - give both types their own unique tools.
No matter what, crafted sets will always be a more convenient alternative to dropped sets. Because of that, it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets should rival dropped sets on an equal level.
By making the dropped sets slightly better than crafted sets, it dangles the equipment-carrot in front of people's faces and gives them a reason to repeatedly do the group content. Since people are doing it continually, it keeps the queue times down and keeps that aspect of the game active. That helps the game remain active and alive as a whole.
I really think this is why Zenimax won't buff them; if the crafted sets were all equal to, or better than, the dropped sets, then there wouldn't be the same incentive for people to continually repeat the group content that they're found in after picking up the quest skill point.
If people don't repeat it, then we have to rely on fresh players to come along, active participation goes down, queue times go up, people get bored, and the active population starts to drop shortly afterward.
The gear treadmill that keeps group content active is only effective if the rewards are better than the alternatives. Unfortunately, obtaining crafted sets is a largely solo endeavor, and solo gameplay doesn't keep the MMO world turning, group content does.
Regarding the utility of crafted sets:
Crafted sets get some pretty unique tools, too. Redistributor, Kragenac's Hope, Clever Alchemist, and Eternal Hunt, Twice Born Star, and Pelinal's Aptitude all come to mind. There's others, but I can't remember the names off the top of my head.
These sets do things that none of the dropped sets do. If anything, Law of Julianos and Hunding's Rage are by far the most boring sets because they're solely there for boosting stats, but don't modify the gameplay much.
both sides of the debate have "unique" end set bonuses to some extent or another - but i doubt you want to get into a 5pc useful bonus measuring between crafted and drops when we start looking at monster sets, maelstrom/dsa and the like.
by "unique capability" i was referring to mostly the "packages" or basic "building blocks" that each can bring to making a build fit in the available slots.
Drops are the only ones with jewels and they have no only jewels for most every 5pc set but also 3pc jewel/wpn sets.
Drops are the only ones with 2 pc body "monster" sets.
Drops are the only ones with 1-2pc weapon sets vmsa/vdsa.
Both have 5pc body/wpn sets but of course the drop ones come with jewels.
As for this:
"No matter what, crafted sets will always be a more convenient alternative to dropped sets. Because of that, it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets should rival dropped sets on an equal level."
For me the argument for why they should be a part, at least equal part, of the builds is simple and obvious - about 20sp invested in any craft plus about a year to learn all the traits - less if you stop at six and cut out TBS and Clever and a few others.
lets put it another way - most weapon skill lines are about 20sp and take less time to level up than it takes to get equip crafting up to snuff.
if there was a weapon skill line that someone was arguing "it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets ABC WEAPON SKILL should rival dropped sets ANY OTHER WEAPON SKILL on an equal level." do you think that would be considered acceptable or good design?
in this case, the convenience is being "bought" by skill expenditures and time to develop the craft.
Consumables flat out from day one until now have always outperformed drops in their area. Where are the folks arguing "but we need to keep dropped food and drink and potions and glyphs better than crafted cuz crafted is soooo... easy!!!"
And frankly, as long as drop sets maintain their monster sets, their vmsa/vdsa weapons and their jewels - they are not in danger of vanishing from builds so this isn't about whether or not someone grinds and replays content etc for drops - not at all. its about how much of their build is drops vs crafted and for how long? Its about temporary filler vs final answer.
And yeah its about a SP investment that should be respected, not dismissed.
Yeah, I don't know, I just don't see it happening. I'm using 5 light pieces of Julianos, 2 heavy Ilambris, 3 willpower pieces of jewelry. Currently all purple quality. I'm also maxed out in tailoring and woodworking, all skill points.
I'm not personally big on Trials, but I can say with absolute certainty that veteran dungeons are pretty easy with this equipment.
Are you worried about getting into Trials or Dragonstar Arena or something?
Nope.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
Sordidfairytale✭✭✭✭✭Keep prosperous in the loot table for dropped gear. (i.e. Ornate) but change the crafted Prosperous to "Artisan". Gear with this trait is now a half rank higher in performance. For example 150 artisan trait gear performs as if it is 155. 160 artisan trait gear performs as if it is 165. Perhaps even a full rank higher.
It's not likely to be game breaking, it's not going to kill dropped gear and, it gives crafters a "Player only" crafting option.Edited by Sordidfairytale on February 28, 2017 3:55AMThe Vegemite Knight0 -
SFDB✭✭✭✭✭
✭Crazy thought, but what if you were conceptually optimizing and tricking out gear you crafted? If you've mastered all the crafts and have skill points in all of them you are clearly some kind of genius and can implant all manner of improvements in them, like some kind of dwemer savant with fantastical novel ideas woven in? So that you had certain benefits wearing that kind of gear, and it requires a material attained only from deconstructing monster masks, maelstrom weapons, and/or trial gear, marry the idea of gear drops with suping up your unique equipment.
I know it sounds crazy and is probably deeply flawed, just kind of hit me all of a sudden and thought I'd share.0 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Best tanking 5 pieces is probably Tavas (crafted). Best Magic sustain set if you want to wear heavy in PVP now that they nerfed Desert Rose into uselessness is Seducer (crafted). One of the strongest gank/burst damage sets is alchemist for both magic and stam (crafted). Best stamina Debuff set and the 5 piece used to crack 600k on VMA was nightmothers (crafted). Second (and third) best DPS sets for magic Julianos (TBS), both crafted.
Point is that crafted sets are far from useless. Are they the best of the best damage sets in PVE? No, but they are in a solid second place. I think crafted sets for the most part are in a pretty strong place. Not necessarily absolute BIS, but perfectly viable and much easier to obtain.
I am all for giving master crafters other skills (trait and motif change), and who wouldnt love more sets, but please dont act like crafted sets are useless as its far from the truth.
I agree with everything except Tava's.. Dragon is a more reliable set than Tava's if you are looking to build faster ultimate. In good groups with proper horn rotations both those sets are near useless..I play how I want to.0 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭Crafting will always have to be weaker than dropped sets else there is no progression in the game. Crafted sets should be good enough but not BiS.. That being said there are several crafted sets now that are completely useless that has to be revamped.I play how I want to.0
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STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »Crafting will always have to be weaker than dropped sets else there is no progression in the game. Crafted sets should be good enough but not BiS.. That being said there are several crafted sets now that are completely useless that has to be revamped.
Since every single serious build has to (without exception) use drop sets - i do not get what crafted sets and "there is no progression" have to do with each other. Folks wearing 5 crafted out of 11-12 pieces of gear still have to do whatever "progression" stuff those wearing all 11-12 drops with no crafted do, right?
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
rustic_potato✭✭✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »Crafting will always have to be weaker than dropped sets else there is no progression in the game. Crafted sets should be good enough but not BiS.. That being said there are several crafted sets now that are completely useless that has to be revamped.
Since every single serious build has to (without exception) use drop sets - i do not get what crafted sets and "there is no progression" have to do with each other. Folks wearing 5 crafted out of 11-12 pieces of gear still have to do whatever "progression" stuff those wearing all 11-12 drops with no crafted do, right?
Lets assume that TBS is the BiS set for Stamina classes in PvE (It was last patch). I can get it crafted and my gear progression for my primary set ends there. Yes monster and vMA take time but I wont run trials to farm perfect traits for Twice Fanged Snake or Alkosh (useless on dps this patch). That is content I'm not running for farm purposes and that is exactly what ZoS doesn't want to happen.
With the nerf to TBS on all classes. People are farming content for their BiS gear across all content. Which makes ZoS happy.. Crafted sets should always be the starting point never an end..Edited by rustic_potato on February 28, 2017 6:20AMI play how I want to.0 -
Mathius_Mordred✭✭✭✭✭
✭13th March 2014
Matt Firor
A. Crafters still make the best gear in the game and can improve all gear found. So, because everyone wants better gear, crafters play a huge role in PvP. At launch, crafters won’t be able to directly rebuild keep walls, but this is something that may happen in the future.
Source: https://www.esouniverse.com/interview-with-eso-game-director-matt-firor/
Skyrim Red Shirts. Join us at https://skyrimredshirts.co.ukJoin Skyrim Red Shirts. Free trader. We welcome all, from new players to Vets. A mature drama-free social group enjoying PVE questing, PvP, Dungeons, trials and arenas. Web, FB Group & Discord. Guild Hall, trial dummy, crafting, transmutation, banker & merchant. You may invite your friends. No requirements0 -
IwakuraLain42✭✭✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »With the nerf to TBS on all classes. People are farming content for their BiS gear across all content. Which makes ZoS happy.. Crafted sets should always be the starting point never an end..
And every crafter I know (myself included) feels betrayed by the changes in the last 2 updates. Why did we spent all the time and money analyzing traits and collecting motifs if there is nothing to do with it ? The Master Writ system is only a small offering to master crafters.Buff crafted sets and make them BOP.
Which would destroy any remaining business for crafters.
I think all drops sets need a nerf to get them again inline with crafted sets like they were before 1T where BIS was nearly always crafted+dropped sets together.
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LioraValkyrie✭✭✭✭I am loving some of the ideas on this thread! I want any / all of these ideas to become reality, from jewelly crafting to crafted/dropped synergizing, to transmogrification
I'm going to be cynical now though... I have come to speculate that ZOS will probably not overhaul crafted sets because grinding BIS dropped gear is what is keeping a lot of players online these days - I see it in zone and guild chat all the time, "LFM nCoA BSW farm runs", etc. People seem to be using (i.e. buying or getting crafter friends to make) TBS or Julianos only as a placeholder while they grind some other dropped set.
I have never farmed a dropped set because I find the very idea of running the same content over and over again on a daily basis very dull. But it seems this is what a lot of people live for, whilst fewer and fewer people are able to hack the wait times for research and process of farming materials - understandably - for non-meta gear.
So now for my constructive ideas... lots of options... 1) just straight-up buff crafted gear, would be so darn easy, but not an ideal solution. 2) have crafted gear synergize with dropped gear, e.g. if wearing dropped set X, crafted set Y 5th piece bonus is 100% stronger or procs twice as often 3) introduce a 'research set' option, so if you find a piece of set X you can research it to learn the set bonus; researching the same set 5 times lets you craft, in any style, items of that set in any traits of that set which you know; use fancy data to balance it so that it takes roughly the same amount of time to farm or craft BIS gear of that set.
I think option 3) could potentially provide the best outcome for both crafters and grinders, and would be in ZOS's favour since it keeps people logging on to do whatever it is they like to do.Mistress of Apocrypha - Master PetSorc
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Cherryblossom✭✭✭✭✭
✭This came up in the thread regarding reducing research times but was overshadowed by arguments over that topic.
I don't mind research times, or even the relative difficulty of acquiring 9 trait crafting, but what bothers me to no end is how pathetic crafted set perks are compared to those acquired from drops or pvp; especially given that zos claimed from the start that crafted items would be on par with other gear sources.
As it stands, only a small handful of crafted sets have any value whatsoever, and even then only as brief stepping stones to dropped or pvp sets. It doesn't take a genius to look at sets like black rose, viper, etc and see that no crafted set even comes close to them in performance.
Even the famed twice born star set comes up short, especially when you take into account all the bugs associated with it.
I thin it is long past time that all of the crafted sets be looked at by the devs, from death's wind to twice born star, and adjusted to be on par with other similar sets available.
@Lynx7386
I think one thing that should be introduced to improve crafted sets, is to allow us to craft Jewellery....0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »Crafting will always have to be weaker than dropped sets else there is no progression in the game. Crafted sets should be good enough but not BiS.. That being said there are several crafted sets now that are completely useless that has to be revamped.
Since every single serious build has to (without exception) use drop sets - i do not get what crafted sets and "there is no progression" have to do with each other. Folks wearing 5 crafted out of 11-12 pieces of gear still have to do whatever "progression" stuff those wearing all 11-12 drops with no crafted do, right?
Lets assume that TBS is the BiS set for Stamina classes in PvE (It was last patch). I can get it crafted and my gear progression for my primary set ends there. Yes monster and vMA take time but I wont run trials to farm perfect traits for Twice Fanged Snake or Alkosh (useless on dps this patch). That is content I'm not running for farm purposes and that is exactly what ZoS doesn't want to happen.
With the nerf to TBS on all classes. People are farming content for their BiS gear across all content. Which makes ZoS happy.. Crafted sets should always be the starting point never an end..
So in order for their to be proper "progression" the goal/end-game must be to have all dropped sets cuz any crafted sets take away from content demands?
Basically there should be no place for crafted sets in end-game final goal?
Sounds like crafted are temporary filler until the drops are acquired.
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olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Agree with OP.
What we was promised 3 years ago and what we have now, craftingwise. Id say to the responsible party, "youre fired"
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STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IwakuraLain42 wrote: »rustic_potato wrote: »With the nerf to TBS on all classes. People are farming content for their BiS gear across all content. Which makes ZoS happy.. Crafted sets should always be the starting point never an end..
And every crafter I know (myself included) feels betrayed by the changes in the last 2 updates. Why did we spent all the time and money analyzing traits and collecting motifs if there is nothing to do with it ? The Master Writ system is only a small offering to master crafters.Buff crafted sets and make them BOP.
Which would destroy any remaining business for crafters.
I think all drops sets need a nerf to get them again inline with crafted sets like they were before 1T where BIS was nearly always crafted+dropped sets together.
We disagree on this. i do not want to nerf drops simply because of crafters.
if s drop set needs nerfed for other balance reasons that is fine.
But you dont have to nerf drop sets in order to provide a place for crafteds in the end game final outlook.
if they doubled every crafted set value today drops would still be used.
because drop sets provide things crafted cannot - jewels and monster sets and so on.
they both need to add unique slot arrangement blocks that the other cannot do.
right now, drops have several and crafted haqve none.
3-4pc crafted body./wpn sets would change things a lot and are easy to do and would not eliminate all drops from being used by any stretch of the imagination.
Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
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Dark_Aether✭✭✭✭A solution in my opinion is to give crafted sets a simple single piece bonus like monster helms, even if it is the reduced version similar to what small armor pieces get when you enchant them.0 -
Oreyn_Bearclaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rustic_potato wrote: »Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »Best tanking 5 pieces is probably Tavas (crafted). Best Magic sustain set if you want to wear heavy in PVP now that they nerfed Desert Rose into uselessness is Seducer (crafted). One of the strongest gank/burst damage sets is alchemist for both magic and stam (crafted). Best stamina Debuff set and the 5 piece used to crack 600k on VMA was nightmothers (crafted). Second (and third) best DPS sets for magic Julianos (TBS), both crafted.
Point is that crafted sets are far from useless. Are they the best of the best damage sets in PVE? No, but they are in a solid second place. I think crafted sets for the most part are in a pretty strong place. Not necessarily absolute BIS, but perfectly viable and much easier to obtain.
I am all for giving master crafters other skills (trait and motif change), and who wouldnt love more sets, but please dont act like crafted sets are useless as its far from the truth.
I agree with everything except Tava's.. Dragon is a more reliable set than Tava's if you are looking to build faster ultimate. In good groups with proper horn rotations both those sets are near useless..
On my tank, I run both in most 4 man stuff. Basically I wear Tavas/Dragon if groupd DPS is south of about 60k and Tavas Alkosh if it is north of that. Our raid tanks wear Tavas for sure. Tavas is a beast of a tank set. The reality is that its hard to call anything for a tank BIS as there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. End of the day, tanking is pass/fail. DPS is on a scale so it is much easier to say X is better than Y.0
