discussion: crafted set bonuses

Lynx7386

This came up in the thread regarding reducing research times but was overshadowed by arguments over that topic.

I don't mind research times, or even the relative difficulty of acquiring 9 trait crafting, but what bothers me to no end is how pathetic crafted set perks are compared to those acquired from drops or pvp; especially given that zos claimed from the start that crafted items would be on par with other gear sources.

As it stands, only a small handful of crafted sets have any value whatsoever, and even then only as brief stepping stones to dropped or pvp sets. It doesn't take a genius to look at sets like black rose, viper, etc and see that no crafted set even comes close to them in performance.
Even the famed twice born star set comes up short, especially when you take into account all the bugs associated with it.

I thin it is long past time that all of the crafted sets be looked at by the devs, from death's wind to twice born star, and adjusted to be on par with other similar sets available.

PS4_ZeColmeia

The whole crafted armor needs to be redone. Imho, crafted should synergize with dropped armor for niche playstyles, whereas wearing 2 dropped sets should give more versatility.

Right now the crafted bonuses are so paltry (exception being karnacs, TBS, pelinals, maybe gladiator) that crafting armor is worthless except for survey and master writ grinding.

Something like oblivion foe should affect all soul damage line which would have a great synergy with soul shine, and some other sets.

With the addition of furniture crafting it's hard to understand why we can't have jewellery crafting since we know that they can add mats to nodes and can update the tabs on the tables.

As it stands right now, crafting armor is worthless, except for tbs, as anything but leveling armor or in a few cases as hold me over armor until you get end game sets.

srfrogg23

I wouldn't mind if Zenimax beefed up the grafted sets a little bit, but I don't see that happening.

It's really a balance between effort vs reward. Crafted sets still have a massive advantage that people don't often talk about:

Once you learn the traits, you can craft exactly the kind of set you need for your build with all the optimal traits and enchantments. Crafted sets are largely immune to the RNG boss.

Dropped gear is nice, but RNG is a cruel, cruel mistress. To get the optimal drops, people will spend obscene amounts of hours over the course of weeks or month grinding their faces off to get that stuff.

dsalter

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind if Zenimax beefed up the grafted sets a little bit, but I don't see that happening.

It's really a balance between effort vs reward. Crafted sets still have a massive advantage that people don't often talk about:

Once you learn the traits, you can craft exactly the kind of set you need for your build with all the optimal traits and enchantments. Crafted sets are largely immune to the RNG boss.

Dropped gear is nice, but RNG is a cruel, cruel mistress. To get the optimal drops, people will spend obscene amounts of hours over the course of weeks or month grinding their faces off to get that stuff.

so introduce a middle ground, only one crafted 5 set and one dropped 5 set can be equipped at a time

Mathius_Mordred

Just come across this problem myself and it makes a lot of sense from what I've seen in the two weeks I've been back in the game after being absent for the best part of a year.

I'm maxed out on Blacksmithing, provisioning, enchanting etc, and the gear I make does not stack up to the gear my son found in a dungeon, when we 1v1 pvp, he buries me every time. He's never bothered learning to craft, just blindly follows the dungeon grind and ends up with amazing gear with some sick 5 piece bonuses, or buys gear from the traders, a frigging bear that wipes 8K off my health every few seconds for one. When I started in Beta we were promised that crafted gear would be the pinnacle of this game's equipment, it seems this promise has been forgotten!

bulbousb16_ESO

Crafted gear should always be better than dropped gear. Not all games follow this philosophy. Certainly, not all gamers do. But, for sure, crafted gear should at least be in the same ballpark.

STEVIL

What i believe crafted sets need, among other things, is not to be a competitor with drop sets as much as to be a complements them and vice versa.

Right now, from a stats perspective, drop ses have the following unique capabilities that drop setsnot only cannot match but cannot do at all:
drop sets have jewelry for most sets.
drop sets have 3pc jewel/wpn sets.
drop sets have 2pc body "monster" sets.
drp sets have 1-2pc wpn sets maelstrom and dsa.

those unique capabilities guarantee drop sets will be included in every build.

Crafted sets have only style control.

So, if you give crafted sets - for example - the ability to drop one or two of the 2-3-4pc bonuses from existing crafted sets (when created) they would be able to make 3pc and 4pc "body/weapon" sets. those would be unique to crafted only. Drops sets could not do that.

Those would rejuvenate a tad a number of the early crafted sets, allow you to tailor all of them a bit more and give some alternatives for folks using staves and bows and 2h as far as what you can do with 11pcs of set bonuses.

it would move the crafted into a place at the table alongside drops without so much being ans much competition vs partnership.

obviously some need to be looked at but unless they get something unique - this or something else like crafted only cp170-200 - they will wind up losing the competition to the harder to get drop sets and even now some of the easier ones.

STEVIL

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind if Zenimax beefed up the grafted sets a little bit, but I don't see that happening.

It's really a balance between effort vs reward. Crafted sets still have a massive advantage that people don't often talk about:

Once you learn the traits, you can craft exactly the kind of set you need for your build with all the optimal traits and enchantments. Crafted sets are largely immune to the RNG boss.

Dropped gear is nice, but RNG is a cruel, cruel mistress. To get the optimal drops, people will spend obscene amounts of hours over the course of weeks or month grinding their faces off to get that stuff.

But that just makes crafted sets the convenient fillers until you get the drops you want.

Did i spend 20ish skill points and all that time per craft for that? To be the duct tape and plastic until the window is replaced?

Lynx7386

That's a good point that nobody really brings up - crafters spend a huge portion of their skill points on something that is currently not worthwhile.

My nightblade, who is now nothing but a crafting slave, has nearly 50% of his 240 something skill points just in crafting.

srfrogg23

dsalter wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind if Zenimax beefed up the grafted sets a little bit, but I don't see that happening.

It's really a balance between effort vs reward. Crafted sets still have a massive advantage that people don't often talk about:

Once you learn the traits, you can craft exactly the kind of set you need for your build with all the optimal traits and enchantments. Crafted sets are largely immune to the RNG boss.

Dropped gear is nice, but RNG is a cruel, cruel mistress. To get the optimal drops, people will spend obscene amounts of hours over the course of weeks or month grinding their faces off to get that stuff.

so introduce a middle ground, only one crafted 5 set and one dropped 5 set can be equipped at a time

I don't know if Zenimax could ever be convinced to do that. That would be pretty restrictive.

It also doesn't change the fact that getting the dropped set your looking for takes a lot more active participation on the part of the player. It's also, literally, a group effort.

Running the same dungeons over and over and over and over only to constantly have to deal with the disappointment of not getting that one piece to drop with the right trait on it... Add in the randomness that comes with playing through that content again and again with other players and how effective they are, or are not.

You've got a bit of a slog to get that BiS gear that crafted gear just isn't susceptible to. Even the best crafted gear available can be obtained without ever leaving ESO's run-of-mill open world solo questing content. And, you don't have to grind for anything beyond the generally available crafting mats.

I think, from that perspective, crafted gear is pretty damn good and I doubt it's going to be improved much further.

srfrogg23

STEVIL wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind if Zenimax beefed up the grafted sets a little bit, but I don't see that happening.

It's really a balance between effort vs reward. Crafted sets still have a massive advantage that people don't often talk about:

Once you learn the traits, you can craft exactly the kind of set you need for your build with all the optimal traits and enchantments. Crafted sets are largely immune to the RNG boss.

Dropped gear is nice, but RNG is a cruel, cruel mistress. To get the optimal drops, people will spend obscene amounts of hours over the course of weeks or month grinding their faces off to get that stuff.

But that just makes crafted sets the convenient fillers until you get the drops you want.

Did i spend 20ish skill points and all that time per craft for that? To be the duct tape and plastic until the window is replaced?

I don't know if I would say that it's duct tape and plastic... Crafted sets aren't ineffective by any means. They still work well for the content, even the endgame stuff, if you get the quality up to purple or yellow.

Take Law of Julianos vs Burning Spellweave for example.

LoJ: 299 spell damage, 100% uptime. Additional crit.

BSW: 600 spell damage, 50%-60% uptime depending on build/RNG. 8 second uptime, 4 second downtime, but only IF it procs on cooldown EVERY cooldown. 129 additional spell damage that's constant, but slightly lower crit.

LoJ is pretty consistent in its performance, while BSW is a bit more of a mixed bag despite having bigger numbers. While BSW normally comes out on top, it's maybe 2%-4% better judging by the 31k dps vs 33k dps numbers I've seen people posting when comparing these two sets.

Neither of those two numbers are low enough to keep you from being viable in any content. One of those sets, on the other hand, required significantly less grinding to obtain it.

ADarklore

Lynx7386 wrote: »

That's a good point that nobody really brings up - crafters spend a huge portion of their skill points on something that is currently not worthwhile.

My nightblade, who is now nothing but a crafting slave, has nearly 50% of his 240 something skill points just in crafting.

Honestly, I spend the Keen Eye and Proficiency points into Blacksmithing, Clothing and Woodworking for the specific reason that all my resource nodes offer max level material so that I can sell to earn gold. Right now unrefined max level mats go for a decent price on Guild Traders... so even my non-crafter characters put points into those specific crafting skills with no intention of actually crafting.

Lynx7386

Even at only 50% uptime and a 4 second cooldown between 8 second procs, bsw is still giving you a consistent 198 (let's call it 200) boost to spell power and the extra 129 passive. 330ish spellpower is, according to my last math course, greater than 300. Besides that, you aren't taking into consideration that a dropped set will already be purple quality, while, at least on ps4na, it's going to cost you hundreds of thousands of gold in materials to get a yellow crafted set, especially at cp160 where each item takes hundreds of base materials. The crafter has to spend just as much time farming gold to make an inferior set as you do farming for your perfect trait dropped sets.

You may spend time with the rng gods to get that set, but you ignore the time a crafter needs to spend on research to make even julianos as a 6 trait set.

Then consider the minimum of skill points spent on crafting skills, which have no benefit in combat so are otherwise wasted, that a non crafter can allocate into more combat oriented skills and passives.


Everyone is under the impression that crafting takes no time or effort and thus crafted gear should be inferior. That's simply not true,and never has been.

STEVIL

srfrogg23 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind if Zenimax beefed up the grafted sets a little bit, but I don't see that happening.

It's really a balance between effort vs reward. Crafted sets still have a massive advantage that people don't often talk about:

Once you learn the traits, you can craft exactly the kind of set you need for your build with all the optimal traits and enchantments. Crafted sets are largely immune to the RNG boss.

Dropped gear is nice, but RNG is a cruel, cruel mistress. To get the optimal drops, people will spend obscene amounts of hours over the course of weeks or month grinding their faces off to get that stuff.

But that just makes crafted sets the convenient fillers until you get the drops you want.

Did i spend 20ish skill points and all that time per craft for that? To be the duct tape and plastic until the window is replaced?

I don't know if I would say that it's duct tape and plastic... Crafted sets aren't ineffective by any means. They still work well for the content, even the endgame stuff, if you get the quality up to purple or yellow.

Take Law of Julianos vs Burning Spellweave for example.

LoJ: 299 spell damage, 100% uptime. Additional crit.

BSW: 600 spell damage, 50%-60% uptime depending on build/RNG. 8 second uptime, 4 second downtime, but only IF it procs on cooldown EVERY cooldown. 129 additional spell damage that's constant, but slightly lower crit.

LoJ is pretty consistent in its performance, while BSW is a bit more of a mixed bag despite having bigger numbers. While BSW normally comes out on top, it's maybe 2%-4% better judging by the 31k dps vs 33k dps numbers I've seen people posting when comparing these two sets.

Neither of those two numbers are low enough to keep you from being viable in any content. One of those sets, on the other hand, required significantly less grinding to obtain it.

duct tape and plastic aren't ineffective either but you dont normally keep it once the window is fixed.

Reliable vs non-reliable - there are dozens of drop sets so you can pick your poison - for reliability, for systain, for burst - you name it its out there. Where is the crafted burst equivalent to three procs? Clever does fine but not that good.

Anymore than someone who wants end game dps would normally want to keep a 2k deficit if given the option.

If you are gonna argue how great crafted sets are vs drops - how many times do you see all-crafted non-monster non-maelstrom/dsa builds posting those awesome leaderboard scores and dps parses?

if you equip a 3pc jewel drop set, how many times do you then see the remaining 8-9 body/wpn slots all crafted?

i think the problem is the one-sided competition between drops and crafteds where one side gets cosmeitc and convenience but the other side gets "should be better - cuz effort - you know" and multiple unique configuration blocks that crafted cannot do at all..

Like i said, i want them to get to at least complementary - each bringing unique to the table - each included in final builds - neither out in the cold.

But as long as crafted sets dont get something unique, that wont happen.

srfrogg23

STEVIL wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind if Zenimax beefed up the grafted sets a little bit, but I don't see that happening.

It's really a balance between effort vs reward. Crafted sets still have a massive advantage that people don't often talk about:

Once you learn the traits, you can craft exactly the kind of set you need for your build with all the optimal traits and enchantments. Crafted sets are largely immune to the RNG boss.

Dropped gear is nice, but RNG is a cruel, cruel mistress. To get the optimal drops, people will spend obscene amounts of hours over the course of weeks or month grinding their faces off to get that stuff.

But that just makes crafted sets the convenient fillers until you get the drops you want.

Did i spend 20ish skill points and all that time per craft for that? To be the duct tape and plastic until the window is replaced?

I don't know if I would say that it's duct tape and plastic... Crafted sets aren't ineffective by any means. They still work well for the content, even the endgame stuff, if you get the quality up to purple or yellow.

Take Law of Julianos vs Burning Spellweave for example.

LoJ: 299 spell damage, 100% uptime. Additional crit.

BSW: 600 spell damage, 50%-60% uptime depending on build/RNG. 8 second uptime, 4 second downtime, but only IF it procs on cooldown EVERY cooldown. 129 additional spell damage that's constant, but slightly lower crit.

LoJ is pretty consistent in its performance, while BSW is a bit more of a mixed bag despite having bigger numbers. While BSW normally comes out on top, it's maybe 2%-4% better judging by the 31k dps vs 33k dps numbers I've seen people posting when comparing these two sets.

Neither of those two numbers are low enough to keep you from being viable in any content. One of those sets, on the other hand, required significantly less grinding to obtain it.

duct tape and plastic aren't ineffective either but you dont normally keep it once the window is fixed.

Reliable vs non-reliable - there are dozens of drop sets so you can pick your poison - for reliability, for systain, for burst - you name it its out there. Where is the crafted burst equivalent to three procs? Clever does fine but not that good.

Anymore than someone who wants end game dps would normally want to keep a 2k deficit if given the option.

If you are gonna argue how great crafted sets are vs drops - how many times do you see all-crafted non-monster non-maelstrom/dsa builds posting those awesome leaderboard scores and dps parses?

if you equip a 3pc jewel drop set, how many times do you then see the remaining 8-9 body/wpn slots all crafted?

i think the problem is the one-sided competition between drops and crafteds where one side gets cosmeitc and convenience but the other side gets "should be better - cuz effort - you know" and multiple unique configuration blocks that crafted cannot do at all..

Like i said, i want them to get to at least complementary - each bringing unique to the table - each included in final builds - neither out in the cold.

But as long as crafted sets dont get something unique, that wont happen.

I was looking at the silver lining, more than anything. I'm not arguing against improving the crafted sets, I just don't see Zenimax improving the crafted sets to be as good or better than dropped sets because:

1. Crafted sets already come pretty close to dropped sets, and;
2. Dropped sets are an obnoxious, boring grind to obtain.

But, if you'd rather have the dropped sets bonuses over the crafted set, you can always do what everyone else does to get them. Just, stock up on caffeine first, because it's going to be a long trip and the scenery won't change much.

Jamini

Honestly, I've started enjoying crafted sets more and more. If nothing else, they are consistent. A max-level crafter will always, always have a decent 5-piece in ideal traits at their fingertips

Good Crafted Sets

Stamina
-Nightmother's Gaze, Hundlings, Twice-born star
-Niche use for Night's silence, Eternal Hunt, Kvatch Gladiator

Magicka DD and Healers
-Law of Julianos, Kagrenac's Hope, Armor of the Seducer, Magnus' Gift
-Niche use for Eye of Mara


Tanks
-Hist Bark (Old, but still good), Tava's Favor,
-Niche Use for Alessia's Bulwark, Willow's Path, Way of the Arena,

All Damage Dealers
-Clever Alchemist

While there are certainly better sets to be farmed out eventually (though not always. Certain crafted sets REMAIN BIS even with the strong drop sets) these crafted sets remain consistently in the top 80% of all sets in the game. Personally, I find that very good.

Myself, I run Tava's for pretty much everything but trials as my main armor. (Unless someone has stupid low health). For soloing on my tank, I pop on some medium hundlings to pair with my dragon weapons. It works well enough, and I don't need to farm until my eyes bleed to have a good set for soloing/running vet dungeons.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Best tanking 5 pieces is probably Tavas (crafted). Best Magic sustain set if you want to wear heavy in PVP now that they nerfed Desert Rose into uselessness is Seducer (crafted). One of the strongest gank/burst damage sets is alchemist for both magic and stam (crafted). Best stamina Debuff set and the 5 piece used to crack 600k on VMA was nightmothers (crafted). Second (and third) best DPS sets for magic Julianos (TBS), both crafted.

Point is that crafted sets are far from useless. Are they the best of the best damage sets in PVE? No, but they are in a solid second place. I think crafted sets for the most part are in a pretty strong place. Not necessarily absolute BIS, but perfectly viable and much easier to obtain.

I am all for giving master crafters other skills (trait and motif change), and who wouldnt love more sets, but please dont act like crafted sets are useless as its far from the truth.

srfrogg23

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Even at only 50% uptime and a 4 second cooldown between 8 second procs, bsw is still giving you a consistent 198 (let's call it 200) boost to spell power and the extra 129 passive. 330ish spellpower is, according to my last math course, greater than 300. Besides that, you aren't taking into consideration that a dropped set will already be purple quality, while, at least on ps4na, it's going to cost you hundreds of thousands of gold in materials to get a yellow crafted set, especially at cp160 where each item takes hundreds of base materials. The crafter has to spend just as much time farming gold to make an inferior set as you do farming for your perfect trait dropped sets.

You may spend time with the rng gods to get that set, but you ignore the time a crafter needs to spend on research to make even julianos as a 6 trait set.

Then consider the minimum of skill points spent on crafting skills, which have no benefit in combat so are otherwise wasted, that a non crafter can allocate into more combat oriented skills and passives.


Everyone is under the impression that crafting takes no time or effort and thus crafted gear should be inferior. That's simply not true,and never has been.

Yes, making a yellow LoJ set will cost a pretty penny if you're not already stocked up on Dreugh Wax, which is the bulk of the cost associated with upgrading to legendary. If you're deconstructing your purples, blues, and greens regularly, those should not affect the cost in any substantial way...

Which brings me to, yellow BSW:

A yellow BSW set will also cost you a lot of money because it drops in purple quality, and in order to make it yellow, you have to use Dreugh Wax, which isn't cheap.

So, crafted gear still carries the advantage when it comes to convenience.

On the subject of skill points:

How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.

If you've been playing long enough to be a 9-trait crafter, you should easily have enough skill points to create a good combat build while having enough points to at least craft the armor/weapons/miscellaneous stuff you want to use.

QuebraRegra

agreed. They lied about how crafted sets would be competitive.

Furthermore, I'd like to see master crafters able to level gear. Other MMOs implemented systems for gear leveling versus just having disposable gear. it's time.

Jamini

How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.

It depends on what you want to do. Normally a crafting-oriented character ends up giving up a few points that non-crafters can put into Ledgermein, Thieves guild, or Dark Brotherhood skill lines. That, or they end up pigeonholing their skill points.

Looking at my current crafter main, it's unlikely he's going to be able to skill up bow, or pick up a few non-vital skills that might be useful in niche situations. I'm also basically completely giving up legerdemain skills outside of MAYBE force lock, in exchange for that I have a solo-damage spec, and a tanking spec for skills and a few ults I can swap out for situations.

You can't take every skill. Crafters do give up some things in other areas that certain people may take for granted.

srfrogg23

Jamini wrote: »

How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.

It depends on what you want to do. Normally a crafting-oriented character ends up giving up a few points that non-crafters can put into Ledgermein, Thieves guild, or Dark Brotherhood skill lines. That, or they end up pigeonholing their skill points.

Looking at my current crafter main, it's unlikely he's going to be able to skill up bow, or pick up a few non-vital skills that might be useful in niche situations. I'm also basically completely giving up legerdemain skills outside of MAYBE force lock, in exchange for that I have a solo-damage spec, and a tanking spec for skills and a few ults I can swap out for situations.

You can't take every skill. Crafters do give up some things in other areas that certain people may take for granted.

Well, yes, if you're hoping to be able to perform all roles optimally through gear swapping, have the niche abilities, and be an expert crafter, then you're going to run out of skill points.

Most people specialize in something combat related, perform that role well, and specialize in the crafting professions that are most useful to them.

The trade off is the same for non-crafters. They can't be great at everything and expect to circumvent the drop-rate RNG through the use of their own crafted gear because they won't have enough points for crafting stuff.

Everstorm

I think they dropped the ball on not needing any special mats for crafted sets. If you would need mats that only come from specific sources you can introduce different tiers of quality. With the mats for lower tier sets coming from delves en the top mats coming from trials.

STEVIL

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Even at only 50% uptime and a 4 second cooldown between 8 second procs, bsw is still giving you a consistent 198 (let's call it 200) boost to spell power and the extra 129 passive. 330ish spellpower is, according to my last math course, greater than 300. Besides that, you aren't taking into consideration that a dropped set will already be purple quality, while, at least on ps4na, it's going to cost you hundreds of thousands of gold in materials to get a yellow crafted set, especially at cp160 where each item takes hundreds of base materials. The crafter has to spend just as much time farming gold to make an inferior set as you do farming for your perfect trait dropped sets.

You may spend time with the rng gods to get that set, but you ignore the time a crafter needs to spend on research to make even julianos as a 6 trait set.

Then consider the minimum of skill points spent on crafting skills, which have no benefit in combat so are otherwise wasted, that a non crafter can allocate into more combat oriented skills and passives.


Everyone is under the impression that crafting takes no time or effort and thus crafted gear should be inferior. That's simply not true,and never has been.

Yes, making a yellow LoJ set will cost a pretty penny if you're not already stocked up on Dreugh Wax, which is the bulk of the cost associated with upgrading to legendary. If you're deconstructing your purples, blues, and greens regularly, those should not affect the cost in any substantial way...

Which brings me to, yellow BSW:

A yellow BSW set will also cost you a lot of money because it drops in purple quality, and in order to make it yellow, you have to use Dreugh Wax, which isn't cheap.

So, crafted gear still carries the advantage when it comes to convenience.

On the subject of skill points:

How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.

If you've been playing long enough to be a 9-trait crafter, you should easily have enough skill points to create a good combat build while having enough points to at least craft the armor/weapons/miscellaneous stuff you want to use.

yes right now both drops and crafted take tempers/resisn etc to upgrade and cost the same - so no matter which way you go it costs a lot.

Now it would be an interesting change and in keeping with the crafted = convenience thing if drop sets required more to upgrade - like say 50% more to upgrade quality for drop sets.

As for skills: Not sure where "need" comes into play as much as getting valuer for spend.

but in fact, my main crafter/adventurer is also a vampire, has TG and DB lines etc so even with the plethora of skill points a "came up thru bronze silver and gold the hard way" has compared to the "hit 50 and leapfrog all those vet levels and silver and gold content" - its not a luxury of riches in that area.

Character has a lot more weapon skills "learned" than has skills assigned to the right now.

I imagine it also depends on how many different types of content you play routinely. different setups needed for solo vs backed up by healers and tanks.

But i am not on the side of crafteds are useless or make them better than BiS as much as i am give them something unique they can use to be more involved in endgame builds - give both types their own unique tools.

srfrogg23

STEVIL wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Even at only 50% uptime and a 4 second cooldown between 8 second procs, bsw is still giving you a consistent 198 (let's call it 200) boost to spell power and the extra 129 passive. 330ish spellpower is, according to my last math course, greater than 300. Besides that, you aren't taking into consideration that a dropped set will already be purple quality, while, at least on ps4na, it's going to cost you hundreds of thousands of gold in materials to get a yellow crafted set, especially at cp160 where each item takes hundreds of base materials. The crafter has to spend just as much time farming gold to make an inferior set as you do farming for your perfect trait dropped sets.

You may spend time with the rng gods to get that set, but you ignore the time a crafter needs to spend on research to make even julianos as a 6 trait set.

Then consider the minimum of skill points spent on crafting skills, which have no benefit in combat so are otherwise wasted, that a non crafter can allocate into more combat oriented skills and passives.


Everyone is under the impression that crafting takes no time or effort and thus crafted gear should be inferior. That's simply not true,and never has been.

Yes, making a yellow LoJ set will cost a pretty penny if you're not already stocked up on Dreugh Wax, which is the bulk of the cost associated with upgrading to legendary. If you're deconstructing your purples, blues, and greens regularly, those should not affect the cost in any substantial way...

Which brings me to, yellow BSW:

A yellow BSW set will also cost you a lot of money because it drops in purple quality, and in order to make it yellow, you have to use Dreugh Wax, which isn't cheap.

So, crafted gear still carries the advantage when it comes to convenience.

On the subject of skill points:

How many do you think you need for combat oriented stuff? There's roughly ~300-ish in the game, and you need maybe 100 to fully flesh-out most builds, 150 to go above and beyond.

If you've been playing long enough to be a 9-trait crafter, you should easily have enough skill points to create a good combat build while having enough points to at least craft the armor/weapons/miscellaneous stuff you want to use.

yes right now both drops and crafted take tempers/resisn etc to upgrade and cost the same - so no matter which way you go it costs a lot.

Now it would be an interesting change and in keeping with the crafted = convenience thing if drop sets required more to upgrade - like say 50% more to upgrade quality for drop sets.

As for skills: Not sure where "need" comes into play as much as getting valuer for spend.

but in fact, my main crafter/adventurer is also a vampire, has TG and DB lines etc so even with the plethora of skill points a "came up thru bronze silver and gold the hard way" has compared to the "hit 50 and leapfrog all those vet levels and silver and gold content" - its not a luxury of riches in that area.

Character has a lot more weapon skills "learned" than has skills assigned to the right now.

I imagine it also depends on how many different types of content you play routinely. different setups needed for solo vs backed up by healers and tanks.

But i am not on the side of crafteds are useless or make them better than BiS as much as i am give them something unique they can use to be more involved in endgame builds - give both types their own unique tools.

No matter what, crafted sets will always be a more convenient alternative to dropped sets. Because of that, it's hard for me to come up with any argument that says crafted sets should rival dropped sets on an equal level.

By making the dropped sets slightly better than crafted sets, it dangles the equipment-carrot in front of people's faces and gives them a reason to repeatedly do the group content. Since people are doing it continually, it keeps the queue times down and keeps that aspect of the game active. That helps the game remain active and alive as a whole.

I really think this is why Zenimax won't buff them; if the crafted sets were all equal to, or better than, the dropped sets, then there wouldn't be the same incentive for people to continually repeat the group content that they're found in after picking up the quest skill point.

If people don't repeat it, then we have to rely on fresh players to come along, active participation goes down, queue times go up, people get bored, and the active population starts to drop shortly afterward.

The gear treadmill that keeps group content active is only effective if the rewards are better than the alternatives. Unfortunately, obtaining crafted sets is a largely solo endeavor, and solo gameplay doesn't keep the MMO world turning, group content does.

Regarding the utility of crafted sets:

Crafted sets get some pretty unique tools, too. Redistributor, Kragenac's Hope, Clever Alchemist, and Eternal Hunt, Twice Born Star, and Pelinal's Aptitude all come to mind. There's others, but I can't remember the names off the top of my head.

These sets do things that none of the dropped sets do. If anything, Law of Julianos and Hunding's Rage are by far the most boring sets because they're solely there for boosting stats, but don't modify the gameplay much.

Jamini

If anything, Law of Julianos and Hunding's Rage are by far the most boring sets because they're solely there for boosting stats, but don't modify the gameplay much.

Personally I do not mind crafted sets having boring, consistent bonuses. It sets a nice baseline to see if other gear is over or under-performing. Plus it allows folks levleing alts to have a very sturdy "I can have this" set ready at a moment's notice.

Claire

We've got one piece (VMA) two piece (monster) three piece (weapon) and five piece (standard sets) bonuses. What we're missing is four piece.

Rework the crafted sets so that the final bonus kicks in at four pieces. For example, drop the health bonus from Kags. The top end bonus might have to be dropped a bit so that they are in line with other sets.

This would help make the crafted sets special, and allow some interesting combinations. In addition, two-handed users would gain the ability to run three full sets, like dual wield and s&b.

ThePaleItalian

Remove training and prosperous from loot tables but boost the bonuses to 15 to 20% and make them only craft able.

Make half of the world drops sets craft able. Or better yet make them all. We cannot make jewelry so let those drop from bosses and dolmens. So you have the choice to farm yourself, craft them yourself, or have someone farm or craft them for you.

Those with tons of money are taken care of.
Those who farm are taken care of.
Those who craft are taken care of.
Those who like to see my orc self in a bath towel are taken care of.

austinwalter87ub17_ESO

Some of the sets need overhauled. Like redistributor or ashen grip.

Some sets like Armor Master, Juliannos, are fine.

The sets that need overhauled or buffed need to be done. Then, on top of that, all crafted sets should automatically give higher defense ratings and automatically have 5% stronger item enchants than dropped sets. If your gold spell weave chest gives 1k magicka. Your crafted gold Juliannos chest should give 1050 magicka.

Spacemonkey

Didn't read all posts but having set *affinities* would be nice; i.e. Footmen and Armor Master working towards the same set total; not sure how that would all work with different bonus sets, maybe %amount of the actual set worn. (so i.e if 3 Armor Master you get 60% of the stats and effects of the 5 set bonuses, with 2 footmen giving 40% of that one) -> this also opens the door to possibly having 4 of each (80% of each);

Would probably turn out into a balancing nightmare as well as create lag

max_only

Give master crafters the ability to transform the armor style (even if it takes a mimic stone to do it) so that it is an actual REWARD for committing your time and skill points to that part of the game.

Style control is what we have, but people don't see that as a boon because so many players are running around looking like garbage cans of gear or wearing costumes.

Costumes still will make money bc last I checked you can't find Patrician Formal wear and the like in the game

srfrogg23

Jamini wrote: »

If anything, Law of Julianos and Hunding's Rage are by far the most boring sets because they're solely there for boosting stats, but don't modify the gameplay much.

Personally I do not mind crafted sets having boring, consistent bonuses. It sets a nice baseline to see if other gear is over or under-performing. Plus it allows folks levleing alts to have a very sturdy "I can have this" set ready at a moment's notice.

Agreed, I didn't intend for that to sound like a complaint. I was just pointing out that the crafted sets have a lot of variety. It also shows that two of the most talked about sets aren't even the most interesting ones.