Stealth is too Strong

GrumpyDuckling

Tonight I was playing in Scourge. After helping my alliance defend a keep I mounted my horse and started heading towards Cropsford to meet up and quest with a friend. Not too far from the keep I noticed a Covenant forward camp sitting in an open field. I figured I should burn it down. I approached the camp and just when I was about to torch it, a group of 12+ Covenant players popped out of stealth and dropped me.

It was a great trap. I give them credit for tricking me into it. It really bothers me, though, that the forward camp was set up in an open field, in broad daylight, with at least 12 enemies completely invisible to me within a 15 meter radius. I think that stealth needs to be examined when a small army is capable of hiding in broad daylight in an open field.

Ourorboros

It works for you too, you know? Why didn't you approach the camp in stealth? There are tools available to counter it that apparently you did not use. Don't make your problem an issue for everyone else.

thankyourat

I always found it funny when I'm riding and I run across big group of stealth enimies

GrumpyDuckling

Ourorboros wrote: »

It works for you too, you know? Why didn't you approach the camp in stealth? There are tools available to counter it that apparently you did not use. Don't make your problem an issue for everyone else.

Hi, perhaps you're not aware, but when the animation begins for lighting fire to a forward camp, a player is automatically removed from stealth. My detection was inevitable once the animation began.

And I think you're missing the point. I don't have a personal "problem," as you seem to think. I am stating an opinion that I think stealth is too strong because players can remain invisible to one another in broad daylight in a wide open field. I am of the opinion that we should have been able to detect each other from a distance much further than 15 meters - preferably from a distance that is just outside of combat range for most skills, like 40-50 meters, for example.

Also, please note that an increased detection distance would also benefit the other players as well. If they are able to notice me from a further distance then they are better able to prevent me sneaking up to their forward camp to begin with.

Rohamad_Ali

It's a majical world . If you drag common sense in , it just all falls apart .

zuto40

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Ourorboros wrote: »

It works for you too, you know? Why didn't you approach the camp in stealth? There are tools available to counter it that apparently you did not use. Don't make your problem an issue for everyone else.

Hi, perhaps you're not aware, but when the animation begins for lighting fire to a forward camp, a player is automatically removed from stealth. My detection was inevitable once the animation began.

And I think you're missing the point. I don't have a personal "problem," as you seem to think. I am stating an opinion that I think stealth is too strong because players can remain invisible to one another in broad daylight in a wide open field. I am of the opinion that we should have been able to detect each other from a distance much further than 15 meters - preferably from a distance that is just outside of combat range for most skills, like 40-50 meters, for example.

Also, please note that an increased detection distance would also benefit the other players as well. If they are able to notice me from a further distance then they are better able to prevent me sneaking up to their forward camp to begin with.

if i can do something as crazy as fight a demonic prince in his own realm where he has absolute control and win i can hide in a *** field, its 100% reasonable and its part of my immersion

Sheuib

Working as intended.

ku5h

Yea i bet ancient Roman soldiers were also thinking stealth is to OP. When they fought Gauls, Germanic and British tribes, they were ambushes many times by entire armies. Imagine Roman legatus watching entire army of angry Gauls poping up from tall grass not more then 50m away from Roman column, thinking to himself "My Gods this stealth is so *** OP!". What im trying to say is, you dont need magic world to be able to hide near your enemy. Just go watch the way modern snipers hide, he can be literaly beneath your feet and you wont notice him.

RinaldoGandolphi

The only issue with stealth is the detection radius

Yesterday I literally had to standing on top of someone(with 1-2m) just to detect him in broad flipping daylight in an open field

They need to double the stealth detection radius with the exception of back attacks. You should be able to get that close if your coming from behind, but otherwise I guess every Vestige in ESO is blind as a bat, and deaf too becaue I should still be able to hear your footsteps even if I can't see you. Even COD got that right, and there isn't much they do get right nowadays? But hey I guess we're all blind and deaf

olsborg

I agree. A whole 12+ man group shouldnt be able to hide within the same imediate vicinity of eachother imo. Makes it rather stupid. I dont see how this will be adressed however, it probably never will, but ideally only X amount of players should be able to hide within Xm large area at a time. Like 2 or 3 people could hide within 12m of eachother, unless there was shadows, bush or other terrain to help it. This ofcourse is and will always be a dream...in eso, Maybe the next generation of games will do "realism" stuff like that.

Lettigall

GrumpyDuckling

I see people in the comments talking about modern day snipers or giving examples of historic ambush tactics. Those examples either take time to prepare (disguise/makeup) or have a visual line of sight aid (high grass). Most of Cyrodiil is an open field with short grass and every player can "disappear" into complete invisibility (no skills/spells required) in less than 2 seconds.

If someone wants to make the argument that open-field broad daylight invisibility within short distances of opponents should be in ESO, then at least try to make the argument by advocating for something like a hiding spell that forces a player to remain motionless while they are hidden from enemy view within 15 meters of an opponent. That would at least make sense.

Common sense should be a factor, when possible, which brings me to the "it's a magic world," argument. If that argument is taken when discussing every aspect of the game, then nothing would ever change and balancing patches wouldn't exist. The argument is an easy cop-out.

I have yet to see any solid arguments that begin to persuade me that stealth distance shouldn't be reexamined in PVP.

joe.smith21b14_ESO

They did take the time to set up the forward camp, got into position, then ambushed the crap out of you. Ambush was successful this day

efster

So… you left a just-defended keep and it didn't cross your mind that the enemy may be regrouping nearby? Not even when you saw a camp? And then you approached the camp without magelight or detect pots?

I don't think "stealth too strong" is the problem in this situation.

Lieblingsjunge

Yes. Remove Sneak from PvP.

Sure - cloak's fine. But remove sneak.

Sheuib

Stealth is a very important and useful part of the game. Everyone uses it including the people complaining about it. There are plenty of ways to counter stealth including going into stealth yourself. I have ganked many gankers by waiting for them to try and gank someone else. My suggestion is the next time you see an obvious trap you setup a counter trap.

Rickter

Stealthing in ESO pvp should be a way of life for all players.

If you arent utilizing this game mechanic, you're effin up.

Its an elder scrolls staple. In the single player games, you had to level it up and you could become inhumanly stealthy. Good on zos for implementing a franchise feature so well into an mmorpg setting.

Glory

ku5h wrote: »

Yea i bet ancient Roman soldiers were also thinking stealth is to OP. When they fought Gauls, Germanic and British tribes, they were ambushes many times by entire armies. Imagine Roman legatus watching entire army of angry Gauls poping up from tall grass not more then 50m away from Roman column, thinking to himself "My Gods this stealth is so *** OP!". What im trying to say is, you dont need magic world to be able to hide near your enemy. Just go watch the way modern snipers hide, he can be literaly beneath your feet and you wont notice him.

Yeah, I'm sure those Gauls also had bonus stealth damage and a stun from stealth.

Applying real world concepts to a video game to justify it is stupid lol

GrumpyDuckling

Sheuib wrote: »

Stealth is a very important and useful part of the game. Everyone uses it including the people complaining about it. There are plenty of ways to counter stealth including going into stealth yourself. I have ganked many gankers by waiting for them to try and gank someone else. My suggestion is the next time you see an obvious trap you setup a counter trap.

The trap wasn't obvious for me, which is why I said it was a great trap (the group used the current game mechanics well). They got me good.

I mentioned this instance to bring up how ridiculously powerful it is to be able to hide a small army of players in a wide open field in broad daylight. That's too strong and should be looked at.

GrumpyDuckling

efster wrote: »

So… you left a just-defended keep and it didn't cross your mind that the enemy may be regrouping nearby? Not even when you saw a camp? And then you approached the camp without magelight or detect pots?

I don't think "stealth too strong" is the problem in this situation.

I'm not defending my lack of skill or situational awareness. I used my "situation" as an example to lead into a larger point about stealth being too powerful.

Do you really think it makes sense that a small army of players can be invisible in and open, sunlit field?

dotme

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

efster wrote: »

So… you left a just-defended keep and it didn't cross your mind that the enemy may be regrouping nearby? Not even when you saw a camp? And then you approached the camp without magelight or detect pots?

I don't think "stealth too strong" is the problem in this situation.

I'm not defending my lack of skill or situational awareness. I used my "situation" as an example to lead into a larger point about stealth being too powerful.

Do you really think it makes sense that a small army of players can be invisible in and open, sunlit field?

Yes, I honestly do. Getting ambushed is part of the game. I would rez up, call for help in zone chat, assemble a group large enough to make it interesting, and hit 'em back.

Rickter

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Do you really think it makes sense that a small army of players can be invisible in and open, sunlit field?

bro. . . its a video game.

why are you even asking this question? does it make sense that you can call a meteor out of the sky?

again: stealth is a part of not just ESO but the entire Elder Scrolls franchise.

ku5h

Glory wrote: »

ku5h wrote: »

Yea i bet ancient Roman soldiers were also thinking stealth is to OP. When they fought Gauls, Germanic and British tribes, they were ambushes many times by entire armies. Imagine Roman legatus watching entire army of angry Gauls poping up from tall grass not more then 50m away from Roman column, thinking to himself "My Gods this stealth is so *** OP!". What im trying to say is, you dont need magic world to be able to hide near your enemy. Just go watch the way modern snipers hide, he can be literaly beneath your feet and you wont notice him.

Yeah, I'm sure those Gauls also had bonus stealth damage and a stun from stealth.

Applying real world concepts to a video game to justify it is stupid lol

You write such nonsense and you call me stupid! Maybe if you wrote "Applying video game concepts to real world is stupid!" would make sense, but what you wrote does not.

Asmael

Elders Scrolls - Working as intended since before you were born

OBLIVION - Shoot an opponent, hide behind a wall before the arrow lands, rinse & repeat.

SKYRIM - Stealth shoot with a bow a target within 2 meters of you repeatedly. "I AM IN FRONT OF YOU AND SHOOTING STUFF AT YOU, CAN'T SEE ME AHUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE".

ESO - Let me hug you on this bright day unnoticed.

ES VI (coming soon™) - dance and jump around in a heavy armor plate shooting fireballs while still being invisible. People will start uploading videos of them completing the entire game undetected.

ES VII (no ETA) - Not crouching will cause you to instantly die to 50 attacks from invisible NPCs. The game will be called "Elder Stealth VII" by the fans. People will post vids of them killing the final boss with a single shot from stealth. A modder will upload a mod removing the ability to stealth, gaining the whole fanbase's love for the next generations as people will describe it as a "must" and "game-changing" mod while a select few will call it "trash" and hate on it "because it breaks immersion". Then the game will get more mods, making it basically a remastered Skyrim with better graphics and more naked women with very very large ****, katanas, spaceships and other lore-friendly stuff.

ESO : Tamriel Undetected (U29) - The crouch button is always on by default. Reduced out-of-stealth damage by 90%.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

After 3 years this is now a thing? Really? Sure, is comical that 24 people can hide in one spot in the middle of a field during daytime hours, but that's the game. That's how the game always has been. Do you think you would of survived 12 people if you could see them? You still would of died.

Before approaching a target that you know has a great chance of having enemies, considering its literally an enemy spawn point, pop a detect pot. Once you know their numbers get in zone chat and be like "bro's, I'm by big castle little Rock chicken coop. I see 12 enemy sitting at their camp sipping tea. Need back up for kill, tan, laundry." Problem solved. PPPPPP. Proper Planning Prevents *** Poor Performance.

I'm not going to say L2P or you're a bad player, that's rude. I understand your probably just frustrated. Just give my simple tactic a try and keep it in the back of your head when playing and it will be less likely to happen to you again.

TheBonesXXX

Perhaps this speaks of your inability to think as a stealth player, it is a thought process that requires a bit more finesse than "ME HAVE HAMMER" or "ME BIG TANK" or "ME HAVE FIVE WARDS AND DEMONS AND LIGHTNING" OR "ME POKEY POKEY YOU WITH LAZER"

The truth is you did not put the forethought into the trap to realize it is a trap. You haphazardly relied on your perception of the situation, not realizing it was an illusion to get you killed.

It was working perfectly as intended and you got yourself killed.

Damn those distal and proximal stimulus' or lack there of.

GrumpyDuckling

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Perhaps this speaks of your inability to think as a stealth player, it is a thought process that requires a bit more finesse than "ME HAVE HAMMER" or "ME BIG TANK" or "ME HAVE FIVE WARDS AND DEMONS AND LIGHTNING" OR "ME POKEY POKEY YOU WITH LAZER"

The truth is you did not put the forethought into the trap to realize it is a trap. You haphazardly relied on your perception of the situation, not realizing it was an illusion to get you killed.

It was working perfectly as intended and you got yourself killed.

Damn those distal and proximal stimulus' or lack there of.

Read the first post of the thread. I admit that it was a great trap. Props to the people who used the current mechanics to their advantage.

It's important to understand that I'm using my experience as an example to lead into a larger point - that I think it's ridiculous that a small army can be hiding in BROAD DAYLIGHT IN A SUNNY OPEN FIELD (because apparently I think in caps).

deepseamk20b14_ESO

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Perhaps this speaks of your inability to think as a stealth player, it is a thought process that requires a bit more finesse than "ME HAVE HAMMER" or "ME BIG TANK" or "ME HAVE FIVE WARDS AND DEMONS AND LIGHTNING" OR "ME POKEY POKEY YOU WITH LAZER"

The truth is you did not put the forethought into the trap to realize it is a trap. You haphazardly relied on your perception of the situation, not realizing it was an illusion to get you killed.

It was working perfectly as intended and you got yourself killed.

Damn those distal and proximal stimulus' or lack there of.

Read the first post of the thread. I admit that it was a great trap. Props to the people who used the current mechanics to their advantage.

It's important to understand that I'm using my experience as an example to lead into a larger point - that I think it's ridiculous that a small army can be hiding in BROAD DAYLIGHT IN A SUNNY OPEN FIELD (because apparently I think in caps).

It's also rediculous people shoot lightning out of their hands and people turn into werewolves. It's a game. Sunlight is in your imagination. There is no spoon!

poietin

LOL.That's why there is caltrop.

You what else is too strong? Rezzing ppl when they are obviously DEAD! I mean they are DEAD, how can ppl perform witchcraft IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN A SUNNY OPEN FIELD reviving dead corpses after I kill them??!!!

Minalan

Stealth is only 'OP' now because Miats addon (which was kept private and secret before) no longer works.

at the complaints. At least now we knew who was using the add-on all last patch.

Yuke

Just make some objects "interactable" for stealth.

Put an eight meter radius around 2+ trees/stones in cyrodiil where you can hide or something like that...open world stealth on a plain field is just a pathetic joke....