frost staff feedback

Lynx7386

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Tanking with ice staff on one bar and One-Handed & Shield on the other is really good. With a correct "hybrid" build you can technically peram-block. Run out of magicka ? Just swap weapons and block with regular shield. Run out of stamina ? just swap weapons and block with ice staff... xD

This is my plan.

Olupajmibanan

Frost staff is still lacking mobility passive.

Whatever build you crate, you will still feel the lack of Battlefield Mobility passive. Not even bothering to try frost staff until they solve this.

Taunt should be moved and be part of Destructive Touch.
Tri-focus should give 60% speed bonus while blocking with ice staff.

Lynx7386

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Frost staff is still lacking mobility passive.

Whatever build you crate, you will still feel the lack of Battlefield Mobility passive. Not even bothering to try frost staff until they solve this.

Taunt should be moved and be part of Destructive Touch.
Tri-focus should give 60% speed bonus while blocking with ice staff.

I can kinda see the balance there, though. Shield is melee only, hence the mobility. Frost staff can fight at range even while blocking, mobility won't be quite as big an issue.

Rastafariel

No change to frost was needed. put undaunted taunt as first skill. Some people actually used frost staff.

Lynx7386

Rastafariel wrote: »

No change to frost was needed. put undaunted taunt as first skill. Some people actually used frost staff.

Rastafariel wrote: »

No change to frost was needed. put undaunted taunt as first skill. Some people actually used frost staff.

Rastafariel wrote: »

No change to frost was needed. put undaunted taunt as first skill. Some people actually used frost staff.

Very few used it, and no one did in competitive content. I think it will see more use now as a tanking alternative, tbh, and especially one wardens arrive. There's no way frost was ever going to match up to fire or lightning as a damage weapon.

Tapio75

As ZOS thinks litle wider than just player performance, the Inner fire, however nice it is, is not a frost/frost staff thing and therefore will not fit the frost theme of new Warden skill line.

Problem is that the taunt is forced to everyone using frost staff, you cant jet tri focus unused as it is needed in other destro staves if you want to swap at times.

SOLUTION: (As stating a solution makes me sound wise and all knowing :P)

Change one of the ability morphs on the destruction staff to have the taint on it instead of it being on heavy attack.

Destructive reach is good cabdidate for this, it has a nice CC on it as well that could work benefivccially with the taunt and giving some more tanking options than the traditional "On your face" tanking.

I was one of those who played the infamous mage tank back in the day at WOW and i have to say, a CC tank is much more rewarding and feels much more fun than traditional melee tanking based on keeping enemies on your close range. Only problem being then was, that people rarely believed that the tank would work, it certainly was not a main tank for raids but could work as off tank and in dungeons (At that time, they were a challenge), it was very nice.

Olupajmibanan

Lynx7386 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Frost staff is still lacking mobility passive.

Whatever build you crate, you will still feel the lack of Battlefield Mobility passive. Not even bothering to try frost staff until they solve this.

Taunt should be moved and be part of Destructive Touch.
Tri-focus should give 60% speed bonus while blocking with ice staff.

I can kinda see the balance there, though. Shield is melee only, hence the mobility. Frost staff can fight at range even while blocking, mobility won't be quite as big an issue.

If I recall correctly, when ZoS first introduced Frost staff as a tanking weapon they stated that they want to see how it adapts, and how tanks will make use of it both in PvE and PvP.
Without mobility in PvP is completely useless. Even the tankiest permablocking S&B DK can't just stand in place and eat all the hatred thrown upon him. Moving and making use of environment to LoS is key. But with frost staff ..... well, try it, you'll see.

Leogon

Feedback? We've been asking them to make frost staves a viable choice for endgame dps for a very long time now and they decided to turn them into blocking and aggro sticks. Now, we can say goodbye to the idea of having an endgame frost mage dps.

mb10

Lightning staff: More damage for area based attacks
Flame staff: More damage for single based attacks


Oh so Frost staff must be: Damage over time attacks right?

Frost staff: Reduces the cost of blocking by 30% and increases the amount of damage you block by 20%.

Lynx7386

Wouldn't make a lot of sense, most damage over time attacks are fire based, lol

techprince

PLEASE QUOTE THIS AND TYPE +1 IF YOU AGREE.

Elemental Susceptibility : Applies Major Fracture to the target.
Now this will allow proper way to apply debuff to the target.

Trifocus : Blocking with Frost Staff gives x physical resistances and y spell resistances. This scales with number of heavy armor pieces equipped. Increases your Movement Speed while blocking by 60%.
Similar to heavy armor passive Resolve, this will allow tank users to fill the gap of a shield and battlefield mobility passive.

Destructive Clench : Taunts the enemy and applies Minor Maim.
This will allow them to properly taunt and debuff the enemy.

Ancient Knowledge : Frost Staff reduces the cost of blocking by 36% and increases the amount of damage you block by 28%
This will fill the role of Defensive Posture.

You HAVE to give 2 slot bonus for all 2h weapons.

Only with these changes one will able to tank properly with pure staff builds.

Lynx7386

@techprince

Elemental Susceptibility applying fracture would be nice, but how many groups do you run with where one of the dps isn't running a debuff for the same purpose? Not saying it wouldn't be a good change, just that I don't think it's essential to frost tanking.

I don't think trifocus needs the change. Ice staffs should be changed to inherently have an armor boost just like shields. The shield expert cp perk should then also increase the armor of equipped frost staves.
Considering the ranged capabilities of the staff, moving faster isn't really a must for frost tanking - shields need battle field mobility because they're limited to melee range. Giving frost the same would make it much too powerful in pvp scenarios, and it isn't necessary in pve.
Frost staff definitely doesn't need a replacement for a heavy armor passive - if you're tanking you still will be using heavy anyways. This suggestion would make it too powerful for those wearing light armor, which is not intended for tanking.

For destructive clench, the taunt would be nice but the maim is unnecessary. The chilled status effect now applies maim already, so any ice attack will do this by default.
I would rather have destructive clench taunt and freeze/root the target.

Your ancient knowledge suggestion is already covered by Tri-focus.

Lastly, I agree that all 2h weapons should count as two items towards set bonuses, and zenimax has said they'll be looking into doing that with morrowind

S1ipperyJim

Using a staff to tank is counter intuitive and goes against the grain of common in-game-logic sense. The fact we're complaining a small stick should have the defensive abilities of an actual defensive item like a shield is ridiculous. If anything, the staff should be equipable with a shield since it is weapon not a shield specifically designed to protect against enemy blows and projectiles. IMO ZOS should never have come up with the bizarre idea of frost staffs being used for taunting in the first place, and it was evidently only introduced as a forced way of leveraging off the new/old warden class.

Kneighbors

psychotic13 wrote: »

Could be useful for a healer I think, just don't heavy attack cause you don't want the aggro lol.

My thought is that a lot of healers will run a destro for ele drain, and don't get much else use from the destro itself. Maybe if it provided some decent debuffs it could work, I believe chilled applies minor maim now.

They just need to adapt one or two of the skills to benefit ice staff, I mean which tank would use any of the skills? None

ele drain is dead

clocksstoppe

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

Using a staff to tank is counter intuitive and goes against the grain of common in-game-logic sense. The fact we're complaining a small stick should have the defensive abilities of an actual defensive item like a shield is ridiculous. If anything, the staff should be equipable with a shield since it is weapon not a shield specifically designed to protect against enemy blows and projectiles. IMO ZOS should never have come up with the bizarre idea of frost staffs being used for taunting in the first place, and it was evidently only introduced as a forced way of leveraging off the new/old warden class.

The staff is magic so it protects you with magic. Also you should never EVER use the argument "but it doesn't make sense 100%", it's a *** game.

And the idea is not forced in any way, they literally wanted to add a magicka based weapon for tanking (because all 1h weps are stamina based) and since frost staff was a useless peice of garbage anyways, they converted it to that. I've tried it out and I like it, the only bad thing about it is losing 1 set slot and the fact that the Heavy Attack taunting is useless compared to the undaunted taunt.

Lynx7386

It would be nice if blocking with the Frost staff created an icy looking bubble shield in front of you, kinda like ward in skyrim.

S1ipperyJim

clocksstoppe wrote: »

The staff is magic so it protects you with magic. Also you should never EVER use the argument "but it doesn't make sense 100%", it's a *** game.

And the idea is not forced in any way, they literally wanted to add a magicka based weapon for tanking (because all 1h weps are stamina based) and since frost staff was a useless peice of garbage anyways, they converted it to that. I've tried it out and I like it, the only bad thing about it is losing 1 set slot and the fact that the Heavy Attack taunting is useless compared to the undaunted taunt.

It doesn't protect you with magic, since blocking with the staff does not use magicka it uses stamina, further we have magicka based shield spells for a reason.

In game all magicka based enemies are weaker than tank type stam enemies, wand wielders are not meant to be tanks in any elder scrolls game. And we already had a magicka based taunt, the ice staff adds nothing new and is just an out of place forced accessory for the Warden class.

Lynx7386

S1ipperyJim wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

The staff is magic so it protects you with magic. Also you should never EVER use the argument "but it doesn't make sense 100%", it's a *** game.

And the idea is not forced in any way, they literally wanted to add a magicka based weapon for tanking (because all 1h weps are stamina based) and since frost staff was a useless peice of garbage anyways, they converted it to that. I've tried it out and I like it, the only bad thing about it is losing 1 set slot and the fact that the Heavy Attack taunting is useless compared to the undaunted taunt.

It doesn't protect you with magic, since blocking with the staff does not use magicka it uses stamina, further we have magicka based shield spells for a reason.

In game all magicka based enemies are weaker than tank type stam enemies, wand wielders are not meant to be tanks in any elder scrolls game. And we already had a magicka based taunt, the ice staff adds nothing new and is just an out of place forced accessory for the Warden class.

I'm, actually blocking with a frost staff -does- use magicka

S1ipperyJim

Lynx7386 wrote: »

I'm, actually blocking with a frost staff -does- use magicka

OK I was wrong on that but it still makes no sense especially since there is no in game counterpart for frost staff tanking

techprince

Lynx7386 wrote: »

@techprince

Elemental Susceptibility applying fracture would be nice, but how many groups do you run with where one of the dps isn't running a debuff for the same purpose? Not saying it wouldn't be a good change, just that I don't think it's essential to frost tanking.

I don't think trifocus needs the change. Ice staffs should be changed to inherently have an armor boost just like shields. The shield expert cp perk should then also increase the armor of equipped frost staves.
Considering the ranged capabilities of the staff, moving faster isn't really a must for frost tanking - shields need battle field mobility because they're limited to melee range. Giving frost the same would make it much too powerful in pvp scenarios, and it isn't necessary in pve.
Frost staff definitely doesn't need a replacement for a heavy armor passive - if you're tanking you still will be using heavy anyways. This suggestion would make it too powerful for those wearing light armor, which is not intended for tanking.

For destructive clench, the taunt would be nice but the maim is unnecessary. The chilled status effect now applies maim already, so any ice attack will do this by default.
I would rather have destructive clench taunt and freeze/root the target.

Your ancient knowledge suggestion is already covered by Tri-focus.

Lastly, I agree that all 2h weapons should count as two items towards set bonuses, and zenimax has said they'll be looking into doing that with morrowind

I believe that Elemental Susceptibility change essential because you shouldn't rely on someone for Major Fracture buff.

Trifocus change will give a bonus to your armor/magical protections while blocking with frost staff. So we wont need shield expert perk changes at all.

Tank can be ranged, most of the bosses are not ranged. They will come in melee range to attack.

Destructive clench taunt is the only way of taunting and applying minor maim. Chilled status applies minor maim but its not 100%. Its chance based,

Trifocus increases armor/magical resistances where as ancient knowledge reduces block cost and damage taken. Those are two different things.

Lord_Eomer

Currently Sword and Shield outshines frost tanking in everyway, few observations are:

1. With sword and shield can use two sets + monster helm set
2. Shield resistance Increases with Champion System Passives and give more resistance
3. S & S skill allows physical/spell resistance major breach but destro allows only spell resistance breach
4. Taunt is much easier then performing heavy attack and getting easily killed in trials
5. Playing a lot PVP, never seeing anyone using in PVP. Somehow frost tank is failed. Sword and shield is still majorly used by DK, Templars..
6. I tried tanking in vet ruins of Muzatun and ended up badly, with sword and shield had done many times
7. Frost staff Ulitmate is DPS specific, why not giving something tank relevant like S & S

In simple words, this experiment is failed pretty much. Frost staff is still useless as was previously (this staff was)..

New changes to Fire Destro also made it weaker and i am forced to equip lighting destro in PVE.

Why should i leave dual swords and wield Fire destro? Total damage done by Dual Wield remain highers than Inferno Staff! And allows me to use two sets + monster helm set

Stannum

I play as tank very often and noticed that ice staff (not mine as i do not use it) retaunts inner fire and makes boss immune for IF taunt untill IS taunt expires. And lots of players do not read patch notes. Yes i met some DPSes with IS (!) who died on bosses cause of this. And they did not even know that they were taunting.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Stannum wrote: »

I play as tank very often and noticed that ice staff (not mine as i do not use it) retaunts inner fire and makes boss immune for IF taunt untill IS taunt expires. And lots of players do not read patch notes. Yes i met some DPSes with IS (!) who died on bosses cause of this. And they did not even know that they were taunting.

This ought to only happen once, you need to tell the person using the ice staff to read the passives in the skill tree and explain what is happening, if they don't change, boot them or leave yourself, it is that easy. There is no excuse to not know this, it is VERY explicit in the passive description.

Sharee

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

Currently Sword and Shield outshines frost tanking in everyway, few observations are:

1. With sword and shield can use two sets + monster helm set
2. Shield resistance Increases with Champion System Passives and give more resistance
3. S & S skill allows physical/spell resistance major breach but destro allows only spell resistance breach
4. Taunt is much easier then performing heavy attack and getting easily killed in trials
5. Playing a lot PVP, never seeing anyone using in PVP. Somehow frost tank is failed. Sword and shield is still majorly used by DK, Templars..
6. I tried tanking in vet ruins of Muzatun and ended up badly, with sword and shield had done many times
7. Frost staff Ulitmate is DPS specific, why not giving something tank relevant like S & S

In simple words, this experiment is failed pretty much. Frost staff is still useless as was previously (this staff was)..

The goal of the change was to improve magicka tanking. Magicka tanking is better now than it was before the experiment, so i'd call it a success.

Stamina tanking is still superior, but that has no bearing on the fact that magicka tanking options *did* improve.

Sharee

Stannum wrote: »

I play as tank very often and noticed that ice staff (not mine as i do not use it) retaunts inner fire and makes boss immune for IF taunt untill IS taunt expires. And lots of players do not read patch notes. Yes i met some DPSes with IS (!) who died on bosses cause of this. And they did not even know that they were taunting.

The same thing will happen when you have a stam DPS in your group who uses puncture in his attack rotation.

If boss is taunted by person A, then again by person B while the taunt from A is still running, A won't be able to taunt again until B's person taunt expires. (This is a mechanic to prevent two players from simply ping-ponging a boss between them, making it run up and down without attacking while the rest of the group kills it.)

Just explain to him he shouldn't do that.

film

A little off subject so I apologize but I've wondered about this when people bring it up

If 2H weapons count as two items for set bonuses will they still cost 8 alloy/rosin to upgrade or 16?

Danksta

psychotic13 wrote: »

Could be useful for a healer I think, just don't heavy attack cause you don't want the aggro lol.

My thought is that a lot of healers will run a destro for ele drain, and don't get much else use from the destro itself. Maybe if it provided some decent debuffs it could work, I believe chilled applies minor maim now.

They just need to adapt one or two of the skills to benefit ice staff, I mean which tank would use any of the skills? None

Healers use a lightning staff for off-balance which increases damage done by 10% if you have the exploiter passive.

Rastafariel

Frost staff should return to what it was. It was fine for DPS and provided good CC. Ranged taunt should be first in Undaunted line.

Lylith

Rastafariel wrote: »

Frost staff should return to what it was. It was fine for DPS and provided good CC. Ranged taunt should be first in Undaunted line.

absolutely.