"One Tamriel"...a bold, radical conception?

Stormvessel

I am just now getting back into ESO after about three years of absence. I resubscribed to ESO+ and plan on purchasing the upcoming expansion on day one. I am currently leveling a dark elf sorcerer, and am having an absolute blast doing so. Once I got to about level 10, however, I noticed that my character seemed to be getting weaker. So I take to the internet and within seconds I become acquainted with the fact that ESO has level scaling. I literally almost canceled my ESO account right then and there. It seemed to me that the idea of a leveled character growing weaker should automatically and instantly be rejected as a solution by game designers regardless of the potential benefits. I mean, seriously? You're leveling your character ...and they are getting weaker? It's like, hold up here. No way. That's ***. I don't care the reason. Use your brain, ZOS. I'm done. That's ***. End of discussion.

That was my initial reaction.

But then I got to thinking...aren't games supposed to be challenging? Where's the fun in a game that gets easier the further into it you get? And I began to realize... what are we talking about here? Numbers on a stats page. That's it. And that's when I realized something... Had I not actually seen the numbers going down on the statistics page, I would have had no idea that my character was actually getting "weaker".

Over the next couple of levels, I'm actually having fun with my sorcerer. I play in the third person and have routine down for how to tackle enemies, dodging/rolling all over the place (I play on PC but use a gamepad), casting spells, etc. It's actually the best actual gameplay I've ever experienced from an MMO before...and it's not even close. Like, ESO gameplay is on a whole other level. I don't even think combat in Oblivion or Skyrim can compare to this in terms of fun factor, at least in regards to the actual combat/gameplay. And you know what? Without One Tamriel/level scaling, there would be no way to have this and it be a consistent experience.

So slowly I am starting to come around to the idea. The more I actually play, the more I actually see the upsides and realize the downsides are nothing but trivialities. And I have to hand it to Zenimax...that took some guts. It was bold and visionary, and I think it's already payed off and will only continue to pay off.

What are your thoughts on the system?

Sigtric

I've leveled several characters to 50 before and after the change to scaling.

If you pay a lot of attention to the numbers you see it certainly appears that you are getting weaker, but if you pay attention to the feel (the way I felt progression, anyway) that wasn't necessarily the case.

It appears this way, and is MOST apparent at the lowest levels because your character is significantly overbuffed to compensate for its lack of available skills/passives and otherwise relative low damage. The buff scale changes to be less as your character gains more strength in abilities and passives used.

As it is now, and I couldn't do this before the change, I can level a new toon on just two sets* of armor. I make a level 4 set and a level 30 set and that carries me all the way to 50.

*using whatever you start with/come out of tutorial with before level 4

however if you want to keep feeling stronger, and you are leveling slower (I grind) than keep your armor level as close to your character level as possible

Sigtric

double post

IcyDeadPeople

Stormvessel wrote: »

What are your thoughts on the system?

It makes the world feel a bit more like the older TES games because you can go anywhere and still find interesting stuff going on.

However, it would be nice if the maximum number of quests was increased from 25. I find myself always having to delete a previous quest in order to start new ones.

Creepsley

well, after todays patch there also seems to have been a little bug with the scaling ;-) so that might also have been the case, as i my self a very carebear pve person with too much time :P never have seemed to notice it. but did see several posts while waiting for game to patch ;-)

Lynx7386

Technically you aren't getting weaker, your gear is. Using gear below your level reduces stats, so keeping gear up to date helps with this issue tremendously

KochDerDamonen

Oh yes, I tried explaining this to a friend of mine numerous times. Despite being a bit casual, he still won't accept the idea of ignoring the blasted numbers.




Maybe ZOS is into something by having as few things in the vanilla UI as possible...

Danikat

If you want to avoid the issue with the numbers making you look weaker all you need to do is keep your equipment up to date as you level up - make sure it's as close to your level as you reasonably can.

But I don't tend to worry about it, I just use whatever I get as drops and occasionally craft a piece if one gets really behind (or I decide I hate how it looks). Because I do all the quests and tend to get distracted and spend time just wandering around (which requires killing enemies as I go) before One Tamriel I was always massively over-levelled for whatever I was doing so all fights that weren't against a boss were painfully easy. I'd pick one skill to fire off (based on which effect I felt like seeing), then finish them off with a couple of power attacks if necessary. If I was fighting a boss and anyone else showed up I'd have to try and juggle doing enough damage myself to get credit for the fight and not over-doing it and causing them to lose credit, in the few seconds the fight lasted. (If more than one person showed up it was literally a matter of spamming skills and hoping I did enough damage to get credit before the boss died.)

Now combat is actually interesting. Sure I can't solo a world boss any more, and sometimes it's annoying that if I find something really difficult I can't just leave it until later when it will be laughably easy, but overall the game is much more interesting.

And I never really look at the numbers so they don't bother me.

Korah_Eaglecry

Pre One Tamriel any areas youd been before and had already rolled through the content. It was stale and stagnate. There was no point in stopping to fight a skirmish of Daedra warping in when youd already cleared the zone and was now overleveled. Now you can if you wish too. Creatures arent suddenly just an annoyance anymore their still a threat. I like the fact that regardless of where you go. The world feels alive and there is still danger for anyone that might stumble off the laid out path between towns and cities.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

I always notice around levels 40-45. No matter how many skills i get or what class i am playing, it is always around this gap I go from feeling good about the damage i am doing and never running out of resources. To feeling like i am using a foam nerf bat and that there must be a hole in my resource pool since i cant keep anything in it.

JWKe

I always knew it'll be a good idea. Playing MMOs I realize that the leveling zones are never made all that well I would often out level them...

grumlins

Well for one thing this is a game. Games today are not like they used to be.

MMO nostalgia is the worst thing to hit the minds of those who played games with true factions before. The old systems were stupid and didn't lend towards the inclusion of those who work for a living who have little time.

This system was hard fought for. I'm one of the people who called for it and I'm absolutely glad it's in the game! I can go anywhere and see anyone from any faction make friends, join friends in guilds, join with friends in other factions wherever they are and it doesn't matter.

Before it was terrible even with the any race option you still had to contend with the issues of not being able to jump on with friends. Part of what changed that is the design and purpose of the consoles. Consoles were made to allow folks to jump on game with friends no matter what you are doing in PVE. It was high time this change came along.

qsnoopyjr

You right,
It makes no sense, because the whole purpose of this game was Alliance War.

Now we have alliances... and war...
But the feeling from being part of one alliance is gone
Being able to join multiple guilds. The feeling of being a guildie is gone.

Social aspects of this game is gone.

To make this game feel like other ES games?? Other ES games you was in skyrim, you was that alliance.
You was in Morrowind, you are that alliance
You are in Oblivion, you are that alliance.

In Skyrim... You could never goto Morrowind.
You could never goto Daggerfall

Dont give me that balony.

Fact IS FACT.
They got rid of the social parts of this MMORPG we call.
Elder Scrolls Online.

MMORPGs without social aspect, are always in struggle.
...
Housing???
Housing???
Thats social!

Its instanced. Instance is another word for SOLO QUE. Your own little zone all to yourself or your select people you randomly invite.
Social aspect. Little... But if it was Open World.
Social aspect. ENORMOUS

IronCrystal

qsnoopyjr wrote: »

You right,
It makes no sense, because the whole purpose of this game was Alliance War.

Now we have alliances... and war...
But the feeling from being part of one alliance is gone
Being able to join multiple guilds. The feeling of being a guildie is gone.

Social aspects of this game is gone.

To make this game feel like other ES games?? Other ES games you was in skyrim, you was that alliance.
You was in Morrowind, you are that alliance
You are in Oblivion, you are that alliance.

In Skyrim... You could never goto Morrowind.
You could never goto Daggerfall

Dont give me that balony.

Fact IS FACT.
They got rid of the social parts of this MMORPG we call.
Elder Scrolls Online.

MMORPGs without social aspect, are always in struggle.
...
Housing???
Housing???
Thats social!

Its instanced. Instance is another word for SOLO QUE. Your own little zone all to yourself or your select people you randomly invite.
Social aspect. Little... But if it was Open World.
Social aspect. ENORMOUS

I don't completely understand what you mean how all this social aspect is gone. You can still join up to 5 guilds. Are you complaining that not every single player is in your alliance? Beforehand, guilds were multi-faction as long as you had at least 1 character with the same faction as another, you could be invited.

Not every guild is pvp focused nor cares about being all the same alliance. Besides, most people I know have characters in all factions.

You are arguing that you can't socialize with people of other factions.

Tannus15

One Tamriel was the best thing to happen tot his game.

Every time I levelled an alt I'd start playing through the quests in an area and then have to move on as I'd start out levelling them and it annoyed the hell out of me.

Now I can pick a zone and do every quest and every delve and really enjoy the content without feeling like I'm wasting my time getting drops and rewards I'll never use and hardly any exp.

Triddle

Initially I thought the same thing. It was very counter-intuitive that leveling a character makes them weaker. Some have argued that the characters don't get weaker, but I disagree. Regardless of getting new abilities and what have you, your HP decreases, as does your damage. My experience of the strength progression in the game post One Tamriel is bimodal, with an initially high value around levels 1-10, and strength decreasing to its minimum around level 15-30, before increasing again. Once you're into the champion levels you might surpass your level 1 strength, and by the time you're 160 and geared you vastly surpass it.

It's a strange process. Certainly not ideal. However, what it facilitates in terms of gameplay is absolutely remarkable. I'm willing to completely overlook this slight oddity for the level of freedom, smoothness of experience, and overall good time that is every other aspect of One Tamriel. It took this game to another level, and sacrificing the curve of relative-character strength to something with a dip in the middle is neither here nor there.

Being able to play with anyone, anywhere, anytime and to be able to progress your champion level 600 character right alongside your friend's level 4 doing the same content for personally-relevant rewards is just on another level to anything else out there. It makes for a truly huge open world where opportunity abounds. Can't overstate how good One Tamriel was for this game, and the level of canny and wisdom it shows from the devs gives me very high hopes for the upcoming Morrowind.

LadyLethalla

I need some skill points on max level toons - and I can now pick and choose any quest I want, instead of having to play through the entire story. I started off in Glenumbra doing the Wyrd Tree quests, went up to Camlorn and did those, then decided to go to Malabal and clear Velyn Harbour so I could use its facilities if I chose. And finished up in Dru'blog.

I can also go play with my guildies in Craglorn or Wrothgar or anywhere I choose; the only faction limitation being of course Cyrodiil. So overall I think it's way better.

Stormvessel

Great responses guys.

It does seem as though most players are in favor of it. This game is so good. WoW, on the other hand, is a sheer utter mess and just bleeding subscribers.

Would be kind of cool if PC, PS4, Xbox One servers were merged. I don't see the point in having them separate - couldn't they save money by merging them?

Entegre

There are hundreds of MMOs with a silly level system, a level 1 berserking orc is much less a threat than a level 50 sewer rat? No please, current system is awesome and one of the few reasons I am sticking with Eso. Sky errm Lag is the limit in this game.

Auros

I returned to ESO because of the level scaling and you felt weaker because you did not upgrade all your gear every level. BTW sorc is OP atm ... ask me on my magplar.

Level scaling is THE reason I am back and love it. I don't care anymore about the completionist syndrome, I can level where I want when I want it, can go back to each zone when I am interested in it and the quest rewards, drops will be still beneficial to me. No more out-levelling content and similar... no rush to complete a zone and when I am tired of it can swap then come at a later time to continue at my own pace.

Knootewoot

One Tamriel is the best overhaul/update I ever seen for an mmo. It could have been what the NGE did to SWG, but it was the opposite. I love it.

Sausage

Chars becoming weaker sounds indeed bad design. Hopefully we will not see this in future MMORPGs. I think its just fun if the genre is going towards open-world-design.

Ive not tried One Tamriel myself, maybe with Warden, even though I really want to see new weapons before I make the next Char. Just like Crossbow and I might level up another Char.

One Tamriel was made for the name of innovation, so far from what Ive noticed, people seems to like it more than hate it.

zaria

Tannus15 wrote: »

One Tamriel was the best thing to happen tot his game.

Every time I levelled an alt I'd start playing through the quests in an area and then have to move on as I'd start out levelling them and it annoyed the hell out of me.

Now I can pick a zone and do every quest and every delve and really enjoy the content without feeling like I'm wasting my time getting drops and rewards I'll never use and hardly any exp.

This for new players main issue is that if you do all the dolmens, world bosses and dungeons as you level up you would outlevel the quests a lot. Past level 50 it was easier but veteran zones was not very populated.
For an endgame player it has the benefit that I can go everywhere.
Remember in wow, the pve solo content was an tiny zones for doing dailies.

And no I did not imagine 1T would work, it sound stupid and very hard to implement.
However it works, and if its stupid and it works its not stupid.
Let us all enjoy oblivion level scaling, if only glass armor was more common

zaria

Sausage wrote: »

Chars becoming weaker sounds indeed bad design. Hopefully we will not see this in future MMORPGs. I think its just fun if the genre is going towards open-world-design.

Ive not tried One Tamriel myself, maybe with Warden, even though I really want to see new weapons before I make the next Char. Just like Crossbow and I might level up another Char.

One Tamriel was made for the name of innovation, so far from what Ive noticed, people seems to like it more than hate it.

One tamriel uses an scaling a lot like the old cyrodil battle scaling for characters below cp160.
As very low level you get an huge buff and this getting lower as you level up making the game harder if you play the same way as at level 20. It might also be scaling issues here who make an level 45 weaker than designed.

Auros

I stated before in my earlier post: I assume the OP did not upgrade gear regularly. I just levelled a toon 0-42 and never felt it weak?! I returned literally last month. No idea why you think scaling makes the chars weaker. It doesn't!

Danikat

Stormvessel wrote: »

Great responses guys.

It does seem as though most players are in favor of it. This game is so good. WoW, on the other hand, is a sheer utter mess and just bleeding subscribers.

Would be kind of cool if PC, PS4, Xbox One servers were merged. I don't see the point in having them separate - couldn't they save money by merging them?

Merging servers isn't that simple.

Firstly they'd still have the same number of players (potentially more - it could get more people to play, or play at the same time now they can meet up with more of their friends) so they'd still need the same number of servers to allow them all to play at the same time.

Secondly consoles are propriety - you need Microsoft and Sony's permission to release games on their console and that means they get to set some of the rules, and they don't allow cross-platform games. It makes sense for them because it means people are under pressure to buy the same console as their friends so they can play together. If it didn't matter people might actually encourage their friends to buy the other companies console so they can get different console-exclusive games.

But there's also concerns from the players. Lots of people think one format has an advantage over the others, sometimes based in fact (e.g. PC players can use addons to customise their UI and get lots more info or make some functions easier than for console players) sometimes based on opinions or misconceptions (e.g. all PCs are always faster and more powerful than any console can be, or I have an easier time playing with a controller than keyboard & mouse therefore all console players find it easier to play than all PC players).

Dasovaruilos

This "getting weaker as you level" is a complete myth that has been around since One Tamriel was announced and is still brought up from time to time here and in Reddit. It is fading, but still present.

As you said, it is important to know that, while some numbers, a selected few out of a bunch, are going down, there are a lot of other numbers going up. Passives matter. They add up.

On top of that, you have OPTIONS. People are so used to "modern" games having a straight up progression where more time spent = more levels = more numbers that they forget that is possible for the player to "level up" as well.

Think of old games where you character had the same capabilities from the first to the last second of the game. You beat it getting better, not simply jumping faster, hitting harder and surviving longer solely based on the amount of time you played.

When you level, you get bar swap and a second weapon, you get access to Ultimate abilities, more skills. These things all increase your options. Grated, they don't automatically make you better just because a number increased by 1. You have to work for it. And that should be the spirit.

It is like doing vMA on a max CP character. Blindly spending time there won't do you a thing. You have to work on yourself. It is not a +1 number that will make you beat it. You need to learn the mechanics.

The truth is, no, you are NOT getting weaker. But, even if you are not getting stronger, there is no law saying that every game has to have direct increase in power numbers with more levels. Indirect increase and getting options is a valid game design decision too.

Seraphayel

One Tamriel is great but has one major letdown: the story. ESO was developed in mind that you choose one faction and play this faction. That's how the story is made and developed throughout the zones. Veteran Levels (being able to see the other factions) and One Tamriel totally destroy this approach and are very counter-productive from a lore standpoint. During Veteran Zones you somehow explained it through Cadwell's quests but it was still a major immersion-breaker, with One Tamriel it's only gotten worse.

It would make sense if we did not start the game in a default faction, say we don't pledge allegiance to any of the alliances in PvE but play all three of them somehow as an "outsider", the "neutral hero" (that would even make more sense when it comes to the last bits of the story starting the Coldharbour questline). We only need to choose and keep the chosen alliance when doing PvP. This would help solving the lore issues of killing Covenant soldiers in Aldmeri zones although you chose Covenant as your alliance etc.

Another letdown of 1T is the scaling. It's not very well made that you are super powerful in lower levels and constantly get weaker and weaker the higher you level up. Being invincible from 10-20 but being super squishy (although you have more skills and better equip) from 30-40 is super awkward.

Auros

The best option and I hope all MMOs evolve in the end. This is why we all loved Gothic2 and Morrowind, you had no limits.

Becoming weaker is definitely a side effect from people, who forget to craft on-level gear.

Tabbycat

On your character tab, there are 4 stars that basically tell you how strong your character is. To have the strongest character, you'll want all 4 stars filled in. I recommend wearing set gear pieces (either drops or crafted from crafting stations). Around level 20 ish you'll probably want to start wearing mostly blue quality or better gear. I usually replace my armor every 4 levels, mainly because I'm also leveling my crafting professions.

One Tamriel is what makes the game feel more like TES. It's probably the smartest thing ZOS has done with the game.

Auros

The OP played until lvl 10 ... excuse me, this begins to look like trolling to me already... I started playing a month ago.

At launch I played 1 month then quit. Came back this year BECAUSE of 1T and it's a blast, despite all the ***-ups!

And for the record I wrote: h i c k - u p s!

And for the OP: @Stormvessel I think I understand now, why you expected to be OP when you grow up ... we were used to quickly outlevel content. Yes, it is more challenging to me to be on-par with the zones at all times.