No huge debate about BiS after proc nerf?

ChaosWotan

Had expected more debate about theorycrafting and game experience after the nerf to proc sets.

So what is BiS now in pve and pvp, for stam and mana?

Which new meta sets should be upgraded to legendary quality first?

Are crafted sets one of the best options after update?

And is reinforced armor better now in pvp?

Personally I would like to know if 5 Spriggan is best with 5 Nightmother or 5 Hundings, for a stam bow/2h when playing mainly in pvp raids. And if Alchemy is still meta for ganking (according to Alcast before Homestead update).

RoyJade

Nothing really change in pve. On the mana side, TBS is not BIS anymore, BSW is still the absolute BIS, coupled with moondancer and grothdarr/ilambris it's still powerful. On the stamina side, twice fanged serpent + maelstrom + alkosh/VO + kragh (or sometime stormfist) still work well. You can sometime remove the undauted or maelstrom in order to have 5 alkosh.

ChaosWotan

Ok, good to hear that my gear grind the last months has not been totally waisted. But IA is not meta in pve anymore?

DRXHarbinger

IA and Moondancer are dependant on what you play as. Templar and DK I'd take Moondancer but Nightblade I'd take aether as I persoannly think it's better to get as much crit as possible with them whereas a templar and DK want an enormous magika pool. Horses for courses.

Sorc probably Moondancer too for slightly more powerful frag.

Asmael

RoyJade wrote: »

Nothing really change in pve. On the mana side, TBS is not BIS anymore, BSW is still the absolute BIS, coupled with moondancer and grothdarr/ilambris it's still powerful. On the stamina side, twice fanged serpent + maelstrom + alkosh/VO + kragh (or sometime stormfist) still work well. You can sometime remove the undauted or maelstrom in order to have 5 alkosh.

Actually got better results with 5x TBS, 5x TFS and maelstrom weapons (all sharp) than 5x TBS or TFS then 3x VO / Alkosh and monster set. I do play a Khajiit stam DK with 7m and 2x daggers, so the crit synergy is still there. I didn't do the math for non-khajiit races, but the setup you mentioned (5x TFS, 3x VO / Alkosh & 2x Kra'gh) might be best in this case - of course to adapt depending on raid composition.

Dunno if it has changed, since I only (finally >.>) got a sharpened axe with Homestead, but the bleed (Twin blade & blunt) seems to only proc on light and heavy attacks - doesn't work with any DW ability, so in this regard, 2x daggers is my personal BiS right now.

I'm playing around non-vMA DW setups as well, and there's even one that can out-DPS vMA DW, but not quite there yet to remain competitive enough with magicka for trials top scores.

Setups in the work:

• Infused vMA DW front bar with sharp back bar (rest is standard armor / jewelry)
• Torug setup
• Heavy attack builds
• Storm master set (coming soon™ haven't farmed it yet)

tunepunk

Asmael wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Nothing really change in pve. On the mana side, TBS is not BIS anymore, BSW is still the absolute BIS, coupled with moondancer and grothdarr/ilambris it's still powerful. On the stamina side, twice fanged serpent + maelstrom + alkosh/VO + kragh (or sometime stormfist) still work well. You can sometime remove the undauted or maelstrom in order to have 5 alkosh.

Actually got better results with 5x TBS, 5x TFS and maelstrom weapons (all sharp) than 5x TBS or TFS then 3x VO / Alkosh and monster set. I do play a Khajiit stam DK with 7m and 2x daggers, so the crit synergy is still there. I didn't do the math for non-khajiit races, but the setup you mentioned (5x TFS, 3x VO / Alkosh & 2x Kra'gh) might be best in this case - of course to adapt depending on raid composition.

Dunno if it has changed, since I only (finally >.>) got a sharpened axe with Homestead, but the bleed (Twin blade & blunt) seems to only proc on light and heavy attacks - doesn't work with any DW ability, so in this regard, 2x daggers is my personal BiS right now.

I'm playing around non-vMA DW setups as well, and there's even one that can out-DPS vMA DW, but not quite there yet to remain competitive enough with magicka for trials top scores.

Setups in the work:

• Infused vMA DW front bar with sharp back bar (rest is standard armor / jewelry)
• Torug setup
• Heavy attack builds
• Storm master set (coming soon™ haven't farmed it yet)

I see you got curious of my Torug's / Storm Master build. Here's a little teaser of some insane DPS once you get Storm master charged up enough times during fight. I'm still working on a good rotation though, to keep DPS high while charging with heavy attacks. Currently I toss Liquid Lightning or Elemental blockade before heavy attacks. You lose bit of DPS by doing the heavy attacks, so I'm trying to figure out how to maximize DPS during charging.

Screenshot is from pre homestead patch, but still doing almost same damage charged enough. In this case. Charged weapons with a couple of Desto staff heavy on previous enemy. Next enemy this is the DPS.



Poke me in game @tunepunk PC/EU if you want to go farming purple storm master jewlery. I'm looking for as well, still only using blues.

Izaki

RoyJade wrote: »

Nothing really change in pve. On the mana side, TBS is not BIS anymore, BSW is still the absolute BIS, coupled with moondancer and grothdarr/ilambris it's still powerful. On the stamina side, twice fanged serpent + maelstrom + alkosh/VO + kragh (or sometime stormfist) still work well. You can sometime remove the undauted or maelstrom in order to have 5 alkosh.

Pretty much this, except if you're running Two Fanged, using Kra'gh would cause you to over penetrate everything, so Stormfist and Velidreth are better. Other than that, this is spot on.

Asmael

tunepunk wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Nothing really change in pve. On the mana side, TBS is not BIS anymore, BSW is still the absolute BIS, coupled with moondancer and grothdarr/ilambris it's still powerful. On the stamina side, twice fanged serpent + maelstrom + alkosh/VO + kragh (or sometime stormfist) still work well. You can sometime remove the undauted or maelstrom in order to have 5 alkosh.

Actually got better results with 5x TBS, 5x TFS and maelstrom weapons (all sharp) than 5x TBS or TFS then 3x VO / Alkosh and monster set. I do play a Khajiit stam DK with 7m and 2x daggers, so the crit synergy is still there. I didn't do the math for non-khajiit races, but the setup you mentioned (5x TFS, 3x VO / Alkosh & 2x Kra'gh) might be best in this case - of course to adapt depending on raid composition.

Dunno if it has changed, since I only (finally >.>) got a sharpened axe with Homestead, but the bleed (Twin blade & blunt) seems to only proc on light and heavy attacks - doesn't work with any DW ability, so in this regard, 2x daggers is my personal BiS right now.

I'm playing around non-vMA DW setups as well, and there's even one that can out-DPS vMA DW, but not quite there yet to remain competitive enough with magicka for trials top scores.

Setups in the work:

• Infused vMA DW front bar with sharp back bar (rest is standard armor / jewelry)
• Torug setup
• Heavy attack builds
• Storm master set (coming soon™ haven't farmed it yet)

I see you got curious of my Torug's / Storm Master build. Here's a little teaser of some insane DPS once you get Storm master charged up enough times during fight. I'm still working on a good rotation though, to keep DPS high while charging with heavy attacks. Currently I toss Liquid Lightning or Elemental blockade before heavy attacks. You lose bit of DPS by doing the heavy attacks, so I'm trying to figure out how to maximize DPS during charging.

Screenshot is from pre homestead patch, but still doing almost same damage charged enough. In this case. Charged weapons with a couple of Desto staff heavy on previous enemy. Next enemy this is the DPS.

Yeah, quite so, already started the testing and learnt a few things about weapon enchants with DW on the way, and far from done.

I currently get around 35k DPS on a robust skeleton with no major fracture and a vMA setup, 32k5 with the Torug setup (which is a variation of a heavy attack build), both purely self buffed. With someone providing the major fracture, I can get up to 35k with the Torug setup, and 39k with a vMA setup, taking into account that I don't have golded out either the enchants on the weapons, nor the weapons themselves for the Torug setup, so the difference would actually be smaller.

I also noticed a few strange things, since I experimented around Infused weapons and sharpened (got similar results) and more specifically the enchants depending on which one you use on main hand and offhand with DW.

With Poison damage enchant on main hand and Disease on offhand, I could get the Poison enchant to proc on a regular basis, doing no less than 10% of a parse, right below Endless Hail, but the Disease procced very few times, doing negligible DPS (around 2% of the parse). Swapping both enchants leads to similar results with Disease being around 10% as well and poison around 2%.

Doing similar tests with a weapon damage enchant, I ended up getting different behavior, with the enchant retaining similar uptime whether it's main hand or offhand - which leads to conclude that damage proc enchants (such as disease / poison) are best on main hand, while (de)buff enchants are more optimal on offhand (Crusher / Berzerker enchants).

But this might be related to the way DW Heavy attacks work with enchants, so going to test that further during the week. Torug is quite fun to play around definitely :^)

For information, the current setup used is:

Head - Kra'gh - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Shoulder - Kra'gh - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Chest - Torug's pact - Medium - Divines - Purple (Gold stamina enchant)
Legs - Torug's pact - Medium - Divines - Purple (Gold stamina enchant)
Gloves - Torug's pact - Medium - Divines - Purple (Gold stamina enchant)
Boots - Twice Fanged Snake - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Belt - Twice Fanged Snake - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Necklace- Twice Fanged Snake - Robust - Gold (Gold weapon damage enchant)
Ring 1 - Twice Fanged Snake - Robust - Gold (Gold weapon damage enchant)
Ring 2 - Twice Fanged Snake - Robust - Gold (Gold weapon damage enchant)
Dagger (main) - Torug's pact - Infused - Purple (Purple Poison enchant)
Dagger (offhand) - Torug's pact - Infused - Purple (Purple Weapon damage enchant)
Bow - VMA - Sharpened - Gold - (VMA enchant)

tunepunk

Asmael wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

Nothing really change in pve. On the mana side, TBS is not BIS anymore, BSW is still the absolute BIS, coupled with moondancer and grothdarr/ilambris it's still powerful. On the stamina side, twice fanged serpent + maelstrom + alkosh/VO + kragh (or sometime stormfist) still work well. You can sometime remove the undauted or maelstrom in order to have 5 alkosh.

Actually got better results with 5x TBS, 5x TFS and maelstrom weapons (all sharp) than 5x TBS or TFS then 3x VO / Alkosh and monster set. I do play a Khajiit stam DK with 7m and 2x daggers, so the crit synergy is still there. I didn't do the math for non-khajiit races, but the setup you mentioned (5x TFS, 3x VO / Alkosh & 2x Kra'gh) might be best in this case - of course to adapt depending on raid composition.

Dunno if it has changed, since I only (finally >.>) got a sharpened axe with Homestead, but the bleed (Twin blade & blunt) seems to only proc on light and heavy attacks - doesn't work with any DW ability, so in this regard, 2x daggers is my personal BiS right now.

I'm playing around non-vMA DW setups as well, and there's even one that can out-DPS vMA DW, but not quite there yet to remain competitive enough with magicka for trials top scores.

Setups in the work:

• Infused vMA DW front bar with sharp back bar (rest is standard armor / jewelry)
• Torug setup
• Heavy attack builds
• Storm master set (coming soon™ haven't farmed it yet)

I see you got curious of my Torug's / Storm Master build. Here's a little teaser of some insane DPS once you get Storm master charged up enough times during fight. I'm still working on a good rotation though, to keep DPS high while charging with heavy attacks. Currently I toss Liquid Lightning or Elemental blockade before heavy attacks. You lose bit of DPS by doing the heavy attacks, so I'm trying to figure out how to maximize DPS during charging.

Screenshot is from pre homestead patch, but still doing almost same damage charged enough. In this case. Charged weapons with a couple of Desto staff heavy on previous enemy. Next enemy this is the DPS.

Yeah, quite so, already started the testing and learnt a few things about weapon enchants with DW on the way, and far from done.

I currently get around 35k DPS on a robust skeleton with no major fracture and a vMA setup, 32k5 with the Torug setup (which is a variation of a heavy attack build), both purely self buffed. With someone providing the major fracture, I can get up to 35k with the Torug setup, and 39k with a vMA setup, taking into account that I don't have golded out either the enchants on the weapons, nor the weapons themselves for the Torug setup, so the difference would actually be smaller.

I also noticed a few strange things, since I experimented around Infused weapons and sharpened (got similar results) and more specifically the enchants depending on which one you use on main hand and offhand with DW.

With Poison damage enchant on main hand and Disease on offhand, I could get the Poison enchant to proc on a regular basis, doing no less than 10% of a parse, right below Endless Hail, but the Disease procced very few times, doing negligible DPS (around 2% of the parse). Swapping both enchants leads to similar results with Disease being around 10% as well and poison around 2%.

Doing similar tests with a weapon damage enchant, I ended up getting different behavior, with the enchant retaining similar uptime whether it's main hand or offhand - which leads to conclude that damage proc enchants (such as disease / poison) are best on main hand, while (de)buff enchants are more optimal on offhand (Crusher / Berzerker enchants).

But this might be related to the way DW Heavy attacks work with enchants, so going to test that further during the week. Torug is quite fun to play around definitely :^)

For information, the current setup used is:

Head - Kra'gh - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Shoulder - Kra'gh - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Chest - Torug's pact - Medium - Divines - Purple (Gold stamina enchant)
Legs - Torug's pact - Medium - Divines - Purple (Gold stamina enchant)
Gloves - Torug's pact - Medium - Divines - Purple (Gold stamina enchant)
Boots - Twice Fanged Snake - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Belt - Twice Fanged Snake - Medium - Divines - Gold (Gold stamina enchant)
Necklace- Twice Fanged Snake - Robust - Gold (Gold weapon damage enchant)
Ring 1 - Twice Fanged Snake - Robust - Gold (Gold weapon damage enchant)
Ring 2 - Twice Fanged Snake - Robust - Gold (Gold weapon damage enchant)
Dagger (main) - Torug's pact - Infused - Purple (Purple Poison enchant)
Dagger (offhand) - Torug's pact - Infused - Purple (Purple Weapon damage enchant)
Bow - VMA - Sharpened - Gold - (VMA enchant)

Ahhh Cool! Nice combo. I like torug's pact, a very underestimated set. I mostly weave light attacks, and only use heavies for charging storm master, so weapon enchants might work differently then. Mine usually give about the same DPS. sometimes off hand procs more often, sometimes main hand, I don't know why really..... For storm Master set, Each Heavy DW attack will charge with Storm master and gives me about 4k dps for 20 seconds, so it adds up quickly. I tried stamina build before, but switched over to Light armor because of the penetration passive in light armor, to make weapon enchants and storm master to hit harder. Being a sorc, 5% bonus to lightning damage is nice, and if your output is a combination of both Physical and Lightning damage, the Implosion passive seems to proc way more often, for more low health execution.

I like sticking to one bar as often as possible, Desto back bar is only for charging, and when I have to go ranged. I switch bars more based on situation, rather than to maximize and stack dots. I haven't tried on a robust skeleton yet. Didn't get one, but "real world" scenarios i'm pretty satisfied with the DPS output so far. I still have some work to do. Maxing all gear and glyphs to yellow.

Another good reason to use torug's. I have a spare weapon with a Glyph of hardening handy. For a little loss of DPS you can now solo Vet dungeons with that 6200 damage shield that is refreshed VERY often with torug's and infused. I did several vet dungeons up to last boss with no deaths just by switching one weapon.

Berenhir

Damage glyphs share a cooldown, status glyphs share a cooldown. If you have two damage glyphs on dw, your offhand only procs when the mainland happens to be down the moment your offhand deals damage.

tunepunk

Berenhir wrote: »

Damage glyphs share a cooldown, status glyphs share a cooldown. If you have two damage glyphs on dw, your offhand only procs when the mainland happens to be down the moment your offhand deals damage.

So that means they alternate? I thought only 2 damage glyphs of the same kind shared the same cooldown.

For me it seems to work like this, with infused and torugs pact when weaving light attacks.
1. light attack - main hand proc.
2. light attack (no procs)
3. light attack - off hand proc.
4. light attack (no procs)
5. repeat.

Standard cooldown is 4 seconds. Torug's pact, removes 1 second = 3 second cooldown. 3 seconds - 40% cooldown = 1.8 seconds. Seems about right. Usually when I weave light attacks. main hand seems to proc every 4th attack, and same with the second damage proc, but while the first one is recharging...

Malmai

Forced to play trials.

Faulgor

tunepunk wrote: »

Another good reason to use torug's. I have a spare weapon with a Glyph of hardening handy. For a little loss of DPS you can now solo Vet dungeons with that 6200 damage shield that is refreshed VERY often with torug's and infused. I did several vet dungeons up to last boss with no deaths just by switching one weapon.

That sounds very interesting. I've tried Torug's builds so many times but they always lose out to normal builds, so I'm glad to hear somebody else has experience with them.
My main issue is probably that they add nothing to AoE situations, which is the main content in PvE. How do you handle those?

tunepunk

Faulgor wrote: »

tunepunk wrote: »

Another good reason to use torug's. I have a spare weapon with a Glyph of hardening handy. For a little loss of DPS you can now solo Vet dungeons with that 6200 damage shield that is refreshed VERY often with torug's and infused. I did several vet dungeons up to last boss with no deaths just by switching one weapon.

That sounds very interesting. I've tried Torug's builds so many times but they always lose out to normal builds, so I'm glad to hear somebody else has experience with them.
My main issue is probably that they add nothing to AoE situations, which is the main content in PvE. How do you handle those?

On my DW bar I keep Lightning Spash, Steel tornado, and Suppression field. That's way more than enough AOE. In AOE situations (dungeons etc) i do up to 30-40k dps, so... single target damage is covered with sets, and Aoe damage is covered with skills.

You can read a bit more about the setup in this thread where I explained a bit more.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/317149/meta-free-zone-theory-crafting-unchained#latest