Dual class system?
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dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »
Disagree.
As a Magicka Templar there are currently 4 skills that are claimed to be "must have" skills that are not on my skill bars.
If I had more choice of which skill lines to use to create my build there would, for me at least, be even less chance of me following the herd to FOTM builds.
All The Best
But beyond yourself what do you think the majority would do?
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is my wish as well, but i fear it is unlikely to happen in MMORPG...
Off the top of my head, Champions Online and The Secret World are both classless. Okay, CO makes you cough up for a subscription or pay an arm and a leg for freeform character slots, and TSW is straight up garbage, but those games exist.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Here's the thing, I really like Titan Quest and Grim Dawn. They're fantastic ARPGs. You click on things until they explode. After the first few minutes, you're asked to pick a class, then after a couple hours, you're given the option to pick a second class, if you want it.
It's a great system. They're also fundamentally very different from ESO.
Titan Quest has laser focused classes. They do one or two things, and that's it. Slap a second one on, and they're done. You've got a fairly focused character with a couple focuses to explore. One class can fundamentally alter the way another one plays, because they'll shore up weaknesses, or offer more avenues to attack.
Guild Wars was, mostly, the same way.
ESO does not have razor focused classes. Each class can do, pretty much, whatever it wants. They go about those things in different ways from each other, but their weaknesses aren't debilitating.
For example, Dragon Knights can, actually, go on the offense. They're not a class that has to sit back and take a beating. If you want to make one that's aggressive, it's a real option. Compare that to Titan Quest's Defender class, and you have one that really cannot build for DPS. It can take a serious beating, can slap enemies around, taunt them (IIRC), and debilitate them, but if they want to seriously mess someone up, they need to pick a class that offers serious DPS options. On the other hand, they can take offense classes and seriously tank them up. Adding survivability to the mix in a way that no other class in the game allows.
You can make dual class systems. They're really neat, and fun for theory crafting. But, ESO was not designed with one in mind, and the current game really wouldn't support it without a massive overhaul to how classes work.0 -
brandonv516✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I would love a system like this. However it would not take long to figure out that people could create some unique but extremely overpowered combinations.
One I can think of would be Cloak with Crystal Frags. You could literally spam Cloak all day and get the proc for Crystal Frags and it would be a guaranteed crit and insane damage. Then you go stealth again and repeat all day long.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭brandonv516 wrote: »I would love a system like this. However it would not take long to figure out that people could create some unique but extremely overpowered combinations.
One I can think of would be Cloak with Crystal Frags. You could literally spam Cloak all day and get the proc for Crystal Frags and it would be a guaranteed crit and insane damage. Then you go stealth again and repeat all day long.
Only if you combined it with siphoning attacks and Dark Exchange. At which point... yeah, that'd be a little broken.0 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
Off the top of my head, Champions Online and The Secret World are both classless. Okay, CO makes you cough up for a subscription or pay an arm and a leg for freeform character slots, and TSW is straight up garbage, but those games exist.
TSW is actually a very good game, but it's not a traditional MMORPG and can't be compared to ESO. I've no idea about Champions Online.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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TSW is actually a very good game, but it's not a traditional MMORPG and can't be compared to ESO. I've no idea about Champions Online.
Pre-Bylos it was interesting. Post... it went downhill fast, into a lot of really repetitive BS.
Also, technically, TSW is a dual class game. It's just that the "classes" are your weapons (technically you get three to choose from, but one is a different variety and very limited), but you can learn skills for any weapon, with enough time and grinding.
EDIT: Incidentally, it was also a variation of what I was describing earlier for how a dual class system can work. Each weapon had a lot of different (almost identical) skills, that would have some keyword describing how they functioned. Stuff like Chain, Focus, Burst, and so on. Now, all of these terms were shared with at two other weapons so, if you picked pistols and elemental, there was stuff both weapons had that specifically syneregized together. If you picked shotguns and pistols, it was one of the same weapons, but the optimal picks were very different, and a character would play in a completely different way as a result.
I just wish the game hadn't gone the route of, "moar HP equals Dark Souls difficulty.
" Edited by starkerealm on February 5, 2017 9:30PM0 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dragon Sage (DK + Sorc)
Crusader (DK + Temp)
Night Dragon (DK + NB)
Dragonguard (DK + Warden)
Illusionist (NB + Sorc)
Bard (NB + Templar)
Ranger (NB + Warden)
Battlemage (Sorc + Templar)
Spellsword (Sorc + Warden)
Monk (Templar + Warden)"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU2 -
willlienellson✭✭✭✭✭I miss this from GW1.
The way they did it in that game was that you only had access to the Ultimate abilities from the main class. However, that wouldn't work in ESO because there are few few Ultimates and they are not really much stronger relative to the other skills.
There are already tons of OP builds that barely even use an ult.0 -
AFrostWolf✭✭✭✭Honestly, They should just "get rid of classes" Let us switch which class we want to be at the respec shrine area. It would basically refund all skill points and let you pick a different class. This way we only need to play 1 character.0
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Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AFrostWolf wrote: »Honestly, They should just "get rid of classes" Let us switch which class we want to be at the respec shrine area. It would basically refund all skill points and let you pick a different class. This way we only need to play 1 character.
How boring
! 0 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheShadowScout wrote: »The easiest way to make a "dual class system" would be letting people pick an added cross-class skill line, sort of "minor secondary class".
Like, say, a dragonknight picking the "Assassination" skill line from nightblade to become a "dragonknight-assassin"; or picking the shadow skill line for becoming a "shadow-dragonknight", or the aedric spear skill line from templar to become a "aedric-dragonknight", or whatever other combinations...
It would be quite a box of worms to open, balance wise though.
Thats actually the hardest way to implement such feature, easiest really is to just give players ability to choose a second class at level 30
Balance thing? People worry about this too much, Balance will be just as easy and just as impossible to maintain as it is now. These systems tend to balance themselves with the number of abilities you can use and passives that only work if something on that skill line is slotted and the number of skills for example. Just like it is done now.
One skill line, 18 skill lines.. pis not enough or is too much. one full additional class is best compromise between 1 skill line and total freeform class.
>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<0 -
EldritchPenguin✭✭✭✭✭Let me guess, you've played Grim Dawn?
In all seriousness, that system works fabulously in Grim Dawn, but it was designed ground-up with a dual class system in mind. Every class has a serious flaw, and none of them can fully stand on their own, but they are extremely strong when paired up.
If we were to get a dual-class system, then many of the capabilities of the classes would have to be gutted, or else we'd end up with a wildly unbalanced game on our hands.Lilelle Adlis - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Vaynothah Sailenar - Dark Elf Templar
Sherivah Telvanni - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Nephiah Telvanni - Dark Elf Nightblade0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »Let me guess, you've played Grim Dawn?
In all seriousness, that system works fabulously in Grim Dawn, but it was designed ground-up with a dual class system in mind. Every class has a serious flaw, and none of them can fully stand on their own, but they are extremely strong when paired up.
If we were to get a dual-class system, then many of the capabilities of the classes would have to be gutted, or else we'd end up with a wildly unbalanced game on our hands.
Also worth remembering, Grim Dawn was Crate's second bite at that system. It's a vast improvement over Titan Quest's, which did have some serious balance issues. So, even if you know what you're doing, this one's not an easy mark to hit.1 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »
Off the top of my head, Champions Online and The Secret World are both classless. Okay, CO makes you cough up for a subscription or pay an arm and a leg for freeform character slots, and TSW is straight up garbage, but those games exist.
Add Guildwars 1 to the list, it was actually quite good in many ways.
Well, thats actually a dual class game but its great fun.
And again, we often see problems and bogeys that really do not exist
Edited by Tapio75 on February 5, 2017 11:20PM>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<1 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dragon Sage (DK + Sorc)
Crusader (DK + Temp)
Night Dragon (DK + NB)
Dragonguard (DK + Warden)
Illusionist (NB + Sorc)
Bard (NB + Templar)
Ranger (NB + Warden)
Battlemage (Sorc + Templar)
Spellsword (Sorc + Warden)
Monk (Templar + Warden)
Good picks.
>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
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Add Guildwars 1 to the list, it was actually quite good in many ways.
Well, thats actually a dual class game but its great fun.
And again, we often see problems and bogeys that really do not exist
Yeah, I forgot about GW when I made the original post. I really liked that, but ended up blocked on progression, because of a real friend who was a psychotic jackass in game. It was easier to just put it down than deal with their BS.0 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »
Yeah, I forgot about GW when I made the original post. I really liked that, but ended up blocked on progression, because of a real friend who was a psychotic jackass in game. It was easier to just put it down than deal with their BS.
Oh, sorry to hear that.
>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Not that great ideas, methinks...Dragon Sage (DK + Sorc)
Crusader (DK + Temp)
Night Dragon (DK + NB)
Dragonguard (DK + Warden)
Illusionist (NB + Sorc)
Bard (NB + Templar)
Ranger (NB + Warden)
Battlemage (Sorc + Templar)
Spellsword (Sorc + Warden)
Monk (Templar + Warden)
Why should for example a DK/warden be centered on the dragonknight, and not on the warden in name, with "dragonguard"? Same dor DK/Sorc with "dragon sage"... Why "Bard" when there is no music at all in the NB/Templar combination? et cetera...
I would say... there could be more fun with dual class names depending on the initial prime class... something like, maybe:
Dragonknight & Nightblade = Spellsword
Dragonknight & Sorceror = Battlemage
Dragonknight & Templar = Gladiator
Dragonknight & Warden = Conqueror
Nightblade & Dragonknight = Berserker
Nightblade & Sorceror = Illusionist
Nightblade & Templar = Agent
Nightblade & Warden = Ranger
Sorceror & Dragonknight = Pyromancer
Sorceror & Nightblade = Bloodmage
Sorceror & Templar = Sage
Sorceror & Warden = Cryomancer
Templar & Dragonknight = Crusader
Templar & Nightblade = Inquisitor
Templar & Sorceror = Witchhunter
Templar & Warden = Pilgrim
Warden & Dragonknight = Barbarian
Warden & Nightblade = Scout
Warden & Sorceror = Cultist
Warden & Templar = Shaman
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LadyLavina✭✭✭✭✭
✭That would be neat because a Tanky DK spamming BoL would be the most annoying thing ever and I would totally rock it, but at the same time Cyrodiil would be a lot of nopenopenope.PC - NA @LadyLavina 1800+ CP PvP Tank and PvP Healer1 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TheShadowScout wrote: »Not that great ideas, methinks...
Why should for example a DK/warden be centered on the dragonknight, and not on the warden in name, with "dragonguard"? Same dor DK/Sorc with "dragon sage"... Why "Bard" when there is no music at all in the NB/Templar combination? et cetera...
I would say... there could be more fun with dual class names depending on the initial prime class... something like, maybe:
Dragonknight & Nightblade = Spellsword
Dragonknight & Sorceror = Battlemage
Dragonknight & Templar = Gladiator
Dragonknight & Warden = Conqueror
Nightblade & Dragonknight = Berserker
Nightblade & Sorceror = Illusionist
Nightblade & Templar = Agent
Nightblade & Warden = Ranger
Sorceror & Dragonknight = Pyromancer
Sorceror & Nightblade = Bloodmage
Sorceror & Templar = Sage
Sorceror & Warden = Cryomancer
Templar & Dragonknight = Crusader
Templar & Nightblade = Inquisitor
Templar & Sorceror = Witchhunter
Templar & Warden = Pilgrim
Warden & Dragonknight = Barbarian
Warden & Nightblade = Scout
Warden & Sorceror = Cultist
Warden & Templar = Shaman
In the case of the DK, I decided to mix the Dragon part with the roles of the other class. A Sorcerer, who possesses great knowledge of the Arcane and applies that to the Way of the Dragon Knight would become a Sage of the Dragons. And the Warden, who's a Guardian, becomes a guardian of them (and it's a fun play on the Dragonguard too
)
And the Bard: NB are familiar with Illusion magicks, just like the Bard. The Bard could sing praises to the Divines, and act as a loremaster too. Mixing in the rogue-ish aspects of the NB with the devotion of the TemplarsEdited by Tryxus on February 6, 2017 1:46AM"Stand strong, stay true and shelter all."
Tryxus - Guardian of the Green - Warden - PC/EU1 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
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Just saying, draconic power is -one- of the skills of a DK, it seems overvalued in your nomenclatura. Why not "deadric knight" for Sorceror-Dks, after all sorcerors have a deadric skill line... et cetera.In the case of the DK, I decided to mix the Dragon part with the roles of the other class. A Sorcerer, who possesses great knowledge of the Arcane and applies that to the Way of the Dragon Knight would become a Sage of the Dragons. And the Warden, who's a Guardian, becomes a guardian of them (and it's a fun play on the Dragonguard too )
And the dragonguard is a completely different thing... or was, rather, seeing how they disbanded at the end of the first era IIRC, though their traditions certainly played a part in the history of the current "dragon knights"...
Though as you may have guessed, I for one am way more inclined to go for a new name that is not merely an combination of the already existing ones. Or at the very least would not put undue weight on one of the combinations (but you gotta admit, "nightknight" or "nightmage" would sound a bit... off... just like dragonsage, IMO)
Ah, but bards are not about illusion (that would be illusionists), but about song and music, silver tongues and rougeish good looks, charm and the occasional bit of spycraft! So, that wouldn't really fit at all...And the Bard: NB are familiar with Illusion magicks, just like the Bard. The Bard could sing praises to the Divines, and act as a loremaster too. Mixing in the rogue-ish aspects of the NB with the devotion of the Templars
If anything, I'd want bards as a guild similar to TG and DB... but then, I would: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/306759/additional-guild-ideas 0 -
EldritchPenguin✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, and considering that this game has a long way to go balance-wise when we only get one choice in class... Imagine players using Siphoning Attacks in tandem with Dark Deal for infinite sustain. Or gankers packing Hurricane.starkerealm wrote: »
Also worth remembering, Grim Dawn was Crate's second bite at that system. It's a vast improvement over Titan Quest's, which did have some serious balance issues. So, even if you know what you're doing, this one's not an easy mark to hit.
Ugh... Just thinking about it is frustrating the hell out of me...Lilelle Adlis - Dark Elf Dragonknight
Vaynothah Sailenar - Dark Elf Templar
Sherivah Telvanni - Dark Elf Sorcerer
Nephiah Telvanni - Dark Elf Nightblade0 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭EldritchPenguin wrote: »Yeah, and considering that this game has a long way to go balance-wise when we only get one choice in class... Imagine players using Siphoning Attacks in tandem with Dark Deal for infinite sustain. Or gankers packing Hurricane.
Ugh... Just thinking about it is frustrating the hell out of me...
Yep the class skills weren't balanced to be mixed together by one character. Something many in this plea for open access to all class skills forget.
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There will always be "The right and only build or combination" if you ask from the min maxers, i think this is something, we just have to accept and live with.. Though skillpoint allocation and limited number os skillpoints would help in this and also, many passives have When slotted/the number of slotted/Number of sorc abilities" etc added to them that will prevent gaining too much.
Some of us are more concerned of having a fun and varied classes and characters to play rather than play at peak efficiency.
Limiting skill points would not change meta build development. Every MMO has builds, and how to deliver them, that provides the highest dps.I think we just need to forget the "Best builds" scenario as a problem against this feature..
As many know, there will always be guides and best builds, we have also seen in Warcraft, what total destruction of class feel can be if developers try to adress the issue by balancing stuff too much to give any build a chance..
We really need this feature for the fun factor of having increasingly diverse builds, we can allready make nice characters which are fun to play, i love my Khajit shadowknight made from Nightblade, but there could be more options to get more flavour..
For example my Templar who is made as a light armor healer (No stabby light shafts) and the other bar could use some lightning stuff from Sorcerer to get the right feel...
Id like her to be specialist in schools of restoration, Destruction and mysticism, minor conjuration knownledge at times.. With Sorcplar (hehe), that would be easily available and extra fun to play.
Level up multiple classes.
Besides, you can have restoration on one bar and have the other bar setup for damage, Many of us do this when just questing around and especially when healing a 4 man dungeon since it does not require much healing.0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Balance aside, would you like to be able to pick a dual class as means to get more variety?
Dual class, is system where you pick secondary class that gives you extra skills. Some dual class versions, the second class is somewhat weaker than the main class, in ESO, i think that the limited number of actionbar slots would allow full powered second class but thats my opinion only. Anyway, you would be able to pick abilities from both classes to your action bar. For example, if you pick Dragon knight and Nightblade, you would be able to choose 5 skills in your action bar(s) from both classes.
My wish with this, is to get more variety to build your own class, not so much of being effective or best in DPS but more like versatile all around hero.
Would you like a dual class system?
noProudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
AlexanderDeLarge✭✭✭✭✭
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This is my wish as well, but i fear it is unlikely to happen in MMORPG, even while it just means that many players are online at the same time, i think the developers think, that having some class restrictions add to replayability of game..
But my opinion is, that class free would only add to replayability of one character and people would be happy with that IF at the same time, quests would be replayable.
But dual class is something i could see them considering more easily.
Why? MMOs started out classless originally.Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 10 years. 7 paid expansions. 22 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the vast majority of PvE content being sold.
"ESO doesn't need a harder overland" on YouTube for a video of a naked level 3 character w/ no CP allocated AFKing in front of a bear for a minute and a half before dying if you don't believe me change is needed.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »
Why? MMOs started out classless originally.
And they evolved.0 -
Tapio75✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Giles.floydub17_ESO
Because of limited imagination of sme players that only want to "compete", there will always be these "meta" builds or what ever fancy term one wants to use. We should not be concerned with them as they will always get the best build they have somehow managed to calculate to be best, even in hypothetical fully balanced game. Balance is so multidimensional term that it can be really used easily to justify denying freedom on players.
As such, "meta" builds wwuill always exist, quest for balance is eternal. We can tweak the system how we want, we can give more freedom or limit freedom, it does not matter at all either way, the balance is found by making that "meta" or"best" or "whatever" build, not by artificially creating limits. Giving more freedom gives more of those possible best builds to play with or if not the best, more "vaible" options.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »
And they evolved.
Thats matter of opinion, i think they devolved.
Opinion is not fact, not my opinion, not yours.>>PC-EU Mostly PVE. Played since BETA<<0
