Dual class system?

Tapio75

Balance aside, would you like to be able to pick a dual class as means to get more variety?

Dual class, is system where you pick secondary class that gives you extra skills. Some dual class versions, the second class is somewhat weaker than the main class, in ESO, i think that the limited number of actionbar slots would allow full powered second class but thats my opinion only. Anyway, you would be able to pick abilities from both classes to your action bar. For example, if you pick Dragon knight and Nightblade, you would be able to choose 5 skills in your action bar(s) from both classes.

My wish with this, is to get more variety to build your own class, not so much of being effective or best in DPS but more like versatile all around hero.

Would you like a dual class system?

AzuraKin

sure, only if passives of main class work with dual class class trees. based on order from top. so siphon nb skills would trigger earthen heart passives for a dk.

Tapio75

I dont see any issue of passives working like they do now or that if passives would interact between both class. As long as the system does not make characters too strong, its all good.

sumisu1

Nightplar! Dragonblade! Temperor! Sorcknight!

Gandrhulf_Harbard

What I would like is a Class Free System.

So that everyone could choose any 3 "class skill lines" they wanted.

Have a set of Gear that synergises with each skill line, and allow combinations so that it is possible to get a set of gear that synergises with all three of your chosen skill lines.

That would give players the MOST freedom to do what they wanted, how they wanted to do it.

It may finally break the dominance of a handful of meta builds.

All The Best

MythicEmperor

Only if they don't add class change tokens by the time Necromancer comes out

Sausage

What Vampire and Werewolfs are? Shouldnt we beg they add more of those. At least I would love to see something suitable for Sorc like LichLord, and maybe Angel for Templar, and now something for Warden too.

Also Ive a feeling that Spell Crafting is gonna bring tons of variety too later. The original idea of Spell Crafting was, if the population goes so damn low, we need to merge classes, therefore the Spell Crafting delay.

The_Protagonist

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

What I would like is a Class Free System.

So that everyone could choose any 3 "class skill lines" they wanted.

Have a set of Gear that synergises with each skill line, and allow combinations so that it is possible to get a set of gear that synergises with all three of your chosen skill lines.

That would give players the MOST freedom to do what they wanted, how they wanted to do it.

It may finally break the dominance of a handful of meta builds.

All The Best

This all the way, as it gives a lot of room for experimentation.

CaptainVenom

Maybe a dual classe system that doesn't stack two classes, instead it lets you switch between your main and dual.

MythicEmperor

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

What I would like is a Class Free System.

So that everyone could choose any 3 "class skill lines" they wanted.

Have a set of Gear that synergises with each skill line, and allow combinations so that it is possible to get a set of gear that synergises with all three of your chosen skill lines.

That would give players the MOST freedom to do what they wanted, how they wanted to do it.

It may finally break the dominance of a handful of meta builds.

All The Best

The problem is that each class has its strengths and its weaknesses. This would remove all weaknesses, creating a new meta in which you must choose x, y, and z skill trees to eliminate all weaknesses. Raid groups wouldn't accept you if you had a, b, or c skill lines. It wouldn't be freedom, it would be worse than it is now.

Rosveen

MythicEmperor wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

What I would like is a Class Free System.

So that everyone could choose any 3 "class skill lines" they wanted.

Have a set of Gear that synergises with each skill line, and allow combinations so that it is possible to get a set of gear that synergises with all three of your chosen skill lines.

That would give players the MOST freedom to do what they wanted, how they wanted to do it.

It may finally break the dominance of a handful of meta builds.

All The Best

The problem is that each class has its strengths and its weaknesses. This would remove all weaknesses, creating a new meta in which you must choose x, y, and z skill trees to eliminate all weaknesses. Raid groups wouldn't accept you if you had a, b, or c skill lines. It wouldn't be freedom, it would be worse than it is now.

Yep. Look at weapon lines: open system, anyone can use anything... And there's a very clear meta on what should be used in certain situations. Good luck with your double bow bars.
With closed classes, we accept a build's weaknesses because they're unavoidable if we want to reap the benefits of its strengths. But if these same weaknesses become optional, there would always be pressure to remove them.

Tapio75

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

What I would like is a Class Free System.

So that everyone could choose any 3 "class skill lines" they wanted.

Have a set of Gear that synergises with each skill line, and allow combinations so that it is possible to get a set of gear that synergises with all three of your chosen skill lines.

That would give players the MOST freedom to do what they wanted, how they wanted to do it.

It may finally break the dominance of a handful of meta builds.

All The Best

This is my wish as well, but i fear it is unlikely to happen in MMORPG, even while it just means that many players are online at the same time, i think the developers think, that having some class restrictions add to replayability of game..

But my opinion is, that class free would only add to replayability of one character and people would be happy with that IF at the same time, quests would be replayable.

But dual class is something i could see them considering more easily.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

MythicEmperor wrote: »

The problem is that each class has its strengths and its weaknesses.

And this would continue to be the case.

MythicEmperor wrote: »

This would remove all weaknesses, creating a new meta in which you must choose x, y, and z skill trees to eliminate all weaknesses. Raid groups wouldn't accept you if you had a, b, or c skill lines.

That is EXACTLY what happens now. Try getting into a group as a Magicka Templar if you don't use Stabby-Light-Shaft for example (a skill I will never use in its current form)

MythicEmperor wrote: »

It wouldn't be freedom, it would be worse than it is now.

No. If you are correct, it would be as it is now, but with many times more variety for the 60% of the playerbase who will never do content at a high enough difficulty level to care about the meta.

All The Best

Tapio75

There will always be "The right and only build or combination" if you ask from the min maxers, i think this is something, we just have to accept and live with.. Though skillpoint allocation and limited number os skillpoints would help in this and also, many passives have When slotted/the number of slotted/Number of sorc abilities" etc added to them that will prevent gaining too much.
Some of us are more concerned of having a fun and varied classes and characters to play rather than play at peak efficiency.

Tandor

It wouldn't be any different to how it is now, which is halfway to a dual class system in that a lot of the skills ordinary players use are weapon-based and you have two weapon bars with two lots of skills. Moreover, they aren't set in stone and can be respecced.

The problem comes with those who aren't ordinary players (the majority), but hugely competitive ones whether in PvP or PvE (the minority). They will take whatever system they're given and fixate on the perceived FOTM build. One class, multiple classes, no classes, it doesn't matter as they will take whatever some over-rated Youtuber or Twitcher tells them is how they should play the game and decide that is how they must go.

For the ordinary players, however, it does matter a great deal. They look at the classes and decide which of their usual characters would suit a particular class and go with it. They aren't that concerned about class balance, that simply isn't an issue for non-competitive players. They want to see a particular class and know that it's how their character is going to play. If comparatively minor skill changes are made as the game evolves they can live with that, they don't QQ rage, they adapt. If they want different roles, they roll different characters. If they want a healer, a tank, and a dps, they have three characters. They don't want a single character that was a healer last week but who is a tank this week and will probably be a dps next week (subject of course to a token to give them the new class no-one has seen yet).

So no, let's stick with single-class characters and if competitive players want to switch to whatever skill base is today's FOTM until the next patch comes along and it all changes again then let them switch between their characters rather than switching classes on one character.

idk

@Tapio75

First, only if the choice is permanent and cannot be changed just as we cannot change class.

Second, everyone would have to make this choice which can be done by making it so we cannot morph class skills until a sub class was chosen.

Third, it does not mean more skills, the skills and passives would change for that class and provide more specific scope or role.

A Templar could choose one sub class that would be more ideal for healing and dps or ranged dps or the other class that would benefit tanking and mele dps.

Once chosen, that is it. No going back, roll a second character.

So, more build variety by essentially making 4 classes into 8.

Do I want this, No. I would go play SWTOR if this is what I wanted. We have good build variety. Build variety does not mean all variations are good builds.

Rosveen

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

show previous quotes

MythicEmperor wrote: »

This would remove all weaknesses, creating a new meta in which you must choose x, y, and z skill trees to eliminate all weaknesses. Raid groups wouldn't accept you if you had a, b, or c skill lines.

That is EXACTLY what happens now. Try getting into a group as a Magicka Templar if you don't use Stabby-Light-Shaft for example (a skill I will never use in its current form)

That's the magicka templar. But you can also be a sorcerer, a dragonknight or a nightblade and nobody will expect you to use Stabby-Light-Shaft. You have four different viable magicka builds (assuming the general game balance isn't completely out of whack and there is no obviously subpar class). Many skills will be shared, because that's the ESO system, but some will be unique to each build.

Now imagine that Stabby-Light-Shaft is the best magicka skill in the game and everyone has access to it. Suddenly all those DKs, sorcs and NBs are expected to use Stabby-Light-Shaft. What then? Instead of figuring out how to leverage other class skills to compete with templars, everyone just slots Stabby-Light-Shaft and calls it a day. Is this really diversity?

datgladiatah

Yeah, as much as I'd like this, eventually after research there would be one or two preferable builds for dps/tanking/healing. If I chose to be a healer, I'd always choose restoring light. If I want to be a tank, I'd probably always take earthen heart. What if I was a regular ole player and I picked daedric summoning/earthen heart/siphoning. Would I do any damage? Could I make a viable build off this? How would I be able to switch types? Would there be punishment in doing so?

Either you limit choices by giving people the option to pick 3 skill lines with no synergy (which currently, class lines have synergy for most build types) or you give me all 12 lines and there's 1 absolutely 100% perfect build for all characters period. I don't think we're getting what we really want from that, mostly because the game wasn't designed with having all those choices in mind. Basically, if an ESO 2 ever comes out, I'd insist on making a system that gives this option.

For now, just ask for more neutral skill lines, ask for spears, new guilds, spell crafting, my world magic, etc.

Tavore1138

I'd love something like this - maybe just the ability at levels 30 and 50 to pick an additional skill line from any other class so you'd end up with 5 total... could make for some crazy fun builds (which I understand is why they probably would never do it).

Tapio75

Tandor wrote: »

It wouldn't be any different to how it is now, which is halfway to a dual class system in that a lot of the skills ordinary players use are weapon-based and you have two weapon bars with two lots of skills. Moreover, they aren't set in stone and can be respecced.

The problem comes with those who aren't ordinary players (the majority), but hugely competitive ones whether in PvP or PvE (the minority). They will take whatever system they're given and fixate on the perceived FOTM build. One class, multiple classes, no classes, it doesn't matter as they will take whatever some over-rated Youtuber or Twitcher tells them is how they should play the game and decide that is how they must go.

For the ordinary players, however, it does matter a great deal. They look at the classes and decide which of their usual characters would suit a particular class and go with it. They aren't that concerned about class balance, that simply isn't an issue for non-competitive players. They want to see a particular class and know that it's how their character is going to play. If comparatively minor skill changes are made as the game evolves they can live with that, they don't QQ rage, they adapt. If they want different roles, they roll different characters. If they want a healer, a tank, and a dps, they have three characters. They don't want a single character that was a healer last week but who is a tank this week and will probably be a dps next week (subject of course to a token to give them the new class no-one has seen yet).

So no, let's stick with single-class characters and if competitive players want to switch to whatever skill base is today's FOTM until the next patch comes along and it all changes again then let them switch between their characters rather than switching classes on one character.

I am exactly like the player who you see as problematic, who makes different characters and so forth, i dont care of competitive though i am good on what i choose to do.

I would still create new characters as they are persons in virtual world, each with his or her own story. Dual class would only add to possibilities how each character is made and how the story evolves.. I dont see non story oriented casuals having problems either.

The lot i see having problems is competitive playerbase But as you said, they dont REALLY have a problem as they will just choose the "best" combination available. This though, would possibly make more combinations "viable" than current system.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Rosveen wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

That is EXACTLY what happens now. Try getting into a group as a Magicka Templar if you don't use Stabby-Light-Shaft for example (a skill I will never use in its current form)

That's the magicka templar. But you can also be a sorcerer, a dragonknight or a nightblade and nobody will expect you to use Stabby-Light-Shaft. You have four different viable magicka builds (assuming the general game balance isn't completely out of whack and there is no obviously subpar class). Many skills will be shared, because that's the ESO system, but some will be unique to each build.

Now imagine that Stabby-Light-Shaft is the best magicka skill in the game and everyone has access to it. Suddenly all those DKs, sorcs and NBs are expected to use Stabby-Light-Shaft. What then? Instead of figuring out how to leverage other class skills to compete with templars, everyone just slots Stabby-Light-Shaft and calls it a day. Is this really diversity?

Oh wow.

We have four viable magicka builds.

That's from four classes, each with 3 skill trees, each with 5 skills (for skill bars), each with two morphs.

I call that an abject LACK of diversity - especially from a game whose primary marketing gimmick was "play your way".

As i said, I am a Magicka Templer and I will never use Stabby-Light-Shaft - it is the most ridiculous looking thing in the entire game.

The scenario you describe only comes into play because far too many players are sheep - willing to run X build just because Deltia or Alcast say so.

Now, I have nothing against those guys, I have watched many of their videos and learned a lot from them.

But the one thing I learned independent of them is that I care more about having fun than I do about being the best.

And for all those claiming to gain fun from being the best, if all you are doing is following someone else's meta build you ain't the best - you're just a copyist.


All The Best

Rosveen

At least four. There's also a difference between PvE and PvP builds. In any case, I think four are better than one.

Tapio75

I think we just need to forget the "Best builds" scenario as a problem against this feature..

As many know, there will always be guides and best builds, we have also seen in Warcraft, what total destruction of class feel can be if developers try to adress the issue by balancing stuff too much to give any build a chance..

We really need this feature for the fun factor of having increasingly diverse builds, we can allready make nice characters which are fun to play, i love my Khajit shadowknight made from Nightblade, but there could be more options to get more flavour..

For example my Templar who is made as a light armor healer (No stabby light shafts) and the other bar could use some lightning stuff from Sorcerer to get the right feel...

Id like her to be specialist in schools of restoration, Destruction and mysticism, minor conjuration knownledge at times.. With Sorcplar (hehe), that would be easily available and extra fun to play.

mb10

a nightblade ganker with radiant destruction?

cant see that going too well with the PVP community lmao

Borvath

Like how you choose your class in Elder Scrolls Legends.

Tapio75

Guild wars 1 also had a dual class system, though i dont remember much of it, i remember it being fun to play with.

TheShadowScout

The easiest way to make a "dual class system" would be letting people pick an added cross-class skill line, sort of "minor secondary class".

Like, say, a dragonknight picking the "Assassination" skill line from nightblade to become a "dragonknight-assassin"; or picking the shadow skill line for becoming a "shadow-dragonknight", or the aedric spear skill line from templar to become a "aedric-dragonknight", or whatever other combinations...

It would be quite a box of worms to open, balance wise though.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Storm-warden.

Shock,ice and nature magic.


But, I'll have to decline the notion. Classes should remain separate for balance reasons. Being able to pick and choose abilities would end this game.

Sinthrax

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

What I would like is a Class Free System.

So that everyone could choose any 3 "class skill lines" they wanted.

Have a set of Gear that synergises with each skill line, and allow combinations so that it is possible to get a set of gear that synergises with all three of your chosen skill lines.

That would give players the MOST freedom to do what they wanted, how they wanted to do it.

It may finally break the dominance of a handful of meta builds.

All The Best

Why so everyone can pick the same 3 skill lines and be EXACTLY the same. You know as well as I do this is what would happen.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Sinthrax wrote: »

show previous quotes

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

What I would like is a Class Free System.

So that everyone could choose any 3 "class skill lines" they wanted.

Have a set of Gear that synergises with each skill line, and allow combinations so that it is possible to get a set of gear that synergises with all three of your chosen skill lines.

That would give players the MOST freedom to do what they wanted, how they wanted to do it.

It may finally break the dominance of a handful of meta builds.

All The Best

Why so everyone can pick the same 3 skill lines and be EXACTLY the same. You know as well as I do this is what would happen.

Disagree.

As a Magicka Templar there are currently 4 skills that are claimed to be "must have" skills that are not on my skill bars.

If I had more choice of which skill lines to use to create my build there would, for me at least, be even less chance of me following the herd to FOTM builds.

All The Best

ElliottXO

Not dual class, but when reaching 160cp you should be able to select one skill from a different class. Yes just one.