Just a quick comparison

MorHawk

Haha, the debate still rages apace, despite the abundant evidence. Thanks btw to @MLGProPlayer and @esotoon for adding to the pile.

They screwed you, folks. Pay up or don't, I certainly won't complain if a few whales wanna subsidize my occasional free time, but at least stop buying the BS. They screwed subscribers when they went F2P, they screwed them after that with false promises of universal content access, and dollars to doughnuts they'll eventually screw those who are buying these 'chapters'. If you're going to keep bending over on command, at least stop telling yourself that "he cares about me really, deep down".

MorHawk

I caved, I actually read the whole of this thread. I have just one thing to say:

esotoon wrote: »

I may be wrong, but I believe the OP posted the comparison because people in those other threads defending Zos' actions were stating that the t&c's clearly stated when we subscribed that it is only DLC from the Crown Store that was part of the terms of the subscription. The point being, it didn't, the wording was only recently changed.

This guy gets it.

Ojustaboo

Mwnci wrote: »

The rage is there for two reasons.

First and foremost, Morrowind is an expansion not a DLC, and yes, there is a difference, and yes people confuse the two. Don't believe me? Google it. I promise you there's a difference.

And second ( this will likely offend some people, so heads up):
Those people who raged are most likely ignorant to how the world works WRT contracts, services, terms of use, and how a company like ZOS holds all the cards and grants the player a select few liberties.

They're the same people who believe they own the rights to a video game and that a developer has some kind of unwaivable contract with them. For example, they're the players who demand compensation when the servers are down.

They make assumptions where there are none, that what they signed up for is a "forever and always" package, when it's not.

These are the players who believe that their monthly subscription gives them certain entitlements and rights, when the EULA/TOS they agreed to when playing the game clearly states they do not.
They are the people who didn't bother to read the EULA/TOS which states, for example, that ZOS has the right to change their services and offerings whenever they like.
In fact, part of the EULA/TOS clearly states that should ZOS make a material change ( I believe this falls within that category, I may be wrong though ), they only have to provide a 30 day notice, considering Morrowind isn't out till, what, June? That's more than sufficient notice.

The rage is there through ignorance and a simple misunderstanding on the customers part, both with regards to the definitions of DLC/Expansion and the terms of the agreements they signed.

Wrong on so many levels (well as far as I go)

I understand contracts, what you don't seem to understand is that those living in the USA can quote the EULA or ToS until your blue in the face, but in many parts of the world, it's virtually meaningless and local law completely overrides whatever is written.

You are the one making an assumption based on your own laws yet you appear to know nothing of EU law.

It remains to be seen whether I class Morrowind as an expansion or not, I am well aware that most MMOs charge for expansions regardless of whether they have a sub or not .

So far all we've had is what Zos has said, and that is 30 hrs of additional game content (NOT 30 hrs of a new main story as I (and many others) originally thought. It could be that with all the other stuff, it really is worthy of being called an expansion, then again they could be simply cashing in on the Morrowind name, time will tell.

But for most people it's not simply that they are charging, it's more because by the time Morrowind releases, an entire year will have gone past with subscribers getting zero dlc that hasn't also been available to non subscribers. And rather than Zos clearly saying this upfront, they have changed what their web site says in the past few days/weeks.

They could have told subscribers 6 months ago that there will be no dlc not also available to non subscribers for the next year, but they didn't, and many people feel this is a shady underhand practice.

Even if it was 100% legal in every single country in the world, it still isn't a very good way to keep customer respect, and any company that treats their customers unfairly, then hides behind their EULA, well some of you might be happy to accept it, many more will see it as them treating their customer base with contempt.

Personally I don't think it was done deliberately, I think when they decided to sell it, they realised what was said, what was on web sites etc, and they panicked and quickly changed it. Had they done the decent thing and made an announcement within 24hrs of this kicking off, saying that they understand the frustration but don't worry, something special is coming for subscribers to compensate etc, then most wouldn't feel so bad.

When many argue about it not being dlc and you always have to pay for expansions, I would agree with them (providing it does turn out to be an expansion) , but by Zos quickly changing the wording to say dlc available in the crown store, they are kind of shooting themselves in the foot, as they are virtually admitting the new chapter is really classed as dlc, hence the change of the wording

For an example of the many rules applying to online games etc, consumer rights act UK 2015

Can a trader contract out of statutory rights and remedies under a digital content contract?

47 Liability that cannot be excluded or restricted

(1)A term of a contract to supply digital content is not binding on the consumer to the extent that it would exclude or restrict the trader’s liability arising under any of these provisions—

(a)section 34 (digital content to be of satisfactory quality),

(b)section 35 (digital content to be fit for particular purpose),

(c)section 36 (digital content to be as described),

(d)section 37 (other pre-contract information included in contract), or

(e)section 41 (trader’s right to supply digital content).

No I am not a lawyer and I picked the above bit at random. But what I am saying is that in most of the EU (if not all of it) it really doesn't matter what a games company (or any other company) puts in a ToS/EULA, we are protected by other rights which if the Tos is in breach of, the Tos becomes irrelevant.

And someone taking out a sub and not getting what they were told they would get, to me clearly comes in as not as described.

That said, I'm not really bothered, cancelled my sub and will simply buy the expansion (have all the other dlc anyway), I'm just commenting as I keep seeing those in the US commenting to those not in the USA stating EULA/ToS as if it's the be all and end all of our rights, when the reality is, the US has some of the worst consumer protection I know of, especially when compared to the EU, and most of what's being quoted here by US citizens, I daresay is 100% correct for those in the US, but it is not correct for many of us that don't.

Mwnci

Ojustaboo wrote: »

You are the one making an assumption based on your own laws yet you appear to know nothing of EU law.

Considering the agreement is to provide DLC for free in ESO+ ( which they do ) and to provide customers with ample notice of service/product change/costs etc ( which they did ) and that Morrowind is not a DLC but an Expansion which is not subject to the ESO+ benefit .. no rules have been broken.

In fact, ZOS's only violation is not providing 4 DLCs in a year as per the agreement. That is, I believe, actionable; though I'm still waiting for someone to supply me with a link to that clause, because I'm interested in what it has to say.

sadownik

@Ojustaboo as a lawyer i can tell you that you are right, but the truth is, the law is not a problem, execution of it is.

esotoon

Mwnci wrote: »

Considering the agreement is to provide DLC for free in ESO+ ( which they do ) and to provide customers with ample notice of service/product change/costs etc ( which they did ) and that Morrowind is not a DLC but an Expansion which is not subject to the ESO+ benefit .. no rules have been broken.

Apparently, under EU law this distinction is meaningless. Both DLC and Expansion packs are classed as the same thing: digital content.

{Not a lawyer, just going by what was said in an earlier, very informative thread re this topic)

old_mufasa

Mwnci wrote: »

sadownik wrote: »

@Mwnci First please show me definition of expansion,

Do I really need to show you how to use Google? Come on, dude.

sadownik wrote: »

second show me where ZOS stated they are releasing expansion?

If BMW refuse to call their next new model a car, are you seriously going to try to defend it?
That said, it really doesn't matter what ZOS want to call it, any additional content on this scale, sold as a separate retail product, is known as an expansion.

sadownik wrote: »

And you know why you wont find official ZOS statement about releasing expansion? ZOS doesn't want us to start comparing the scope of the "chapter" with what other MMOs nowadays call expansions.

Not according to the Welcome to 2017 letter.

I quote:

In any other game of this type, these would be called “expansions" – but ESO is a game unlike any other. Because ESO is not level-based, Chapters don't fit the general definition of an “expansion," which typically, in MMO-speak, means it is aimed only at existing (and usually high level) players.

So, the only difference between WoW: Legion and ESO: Morrowind is that WoW: Legion is aimed at existing, or usually high level players, but ESO: Morrowind is not? ...

Fair enough ...
Except that in WoW: Legion you can buy it brand new, use your level boost to raise you to 100 and then start a fresh new game as a Demon Hunter if that's what you wanted.

So.. is WoW: Legion a Chapter? Or an Expansion?

Rhetorical question.

Regardless of what ESO wants to advertise it as ( and they are more than welcome to do so ), it is still an expansion. It will always be an expansion.

It's stupid bring up what wow gives in its expansions vs Morrowind.. Morrowind is a glorified DLC hardly bigger then Orsinium DLC...

Warlords of Draenor: 7 news zones 1 pvp zone, level cap increase, 7 new dungeons, garrisons, graphic upgrades to player models and more..

World of Warcraft: Legion: New class, level cap increase, Hundreds of World Quests across The Broken Isles, Class Campaigns, Artifacts, Improved transmogrification system, 5 new zones, 9 new dungeons and a new raid...

vs ESO

Orsinium: 20 hours of story content, The Maelstrom Arena, 1 new zone (comes included with ESO+)

Morrowind: 30 hours of story content, 3 battle ground, 1 new class, 1 trial, 1 new zone (charging 40 dollars even to those who are ESO plus members)

This is on top of a 6 month hiatus of new content DLC even though new dlc was promised to ESO plus members ever 12 weeks and that instead of being granted to ESO plus members its being charged extra.

WoW expansions are 10x bigger then what Morrowind is offerings. Also WoW has updates through the life cycle of expansions that are given to there subs..

There is no comparison between the amount of content you get for WoW's expansions vs ESO "chapter" DLC. Also when you buy a wow expansion as a new player you get all the old expansions for FREE!!

Ojustaboo

Mwnci wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

You are the one making an assumption based on your own laws yet you appear to know nothing of EU law.

Considering the agreement is to provide DLC for free in ESO+ ( which they do ) and to provide customers with ample notice of service/product change/costs etc ( which they did ) and that Morrowind is not a DLC but an Expansion which is not subject to the ESO+ benefit .. no rules have been broken.

In fact, ZOS's only violation is not providing 4 DLCs in a year as per the agreement. That is, I believe, actionable; though I'm still waiting for someone to supply me with a link to that clause, because I'm interested in what it has to say.

Personally I think that it's ZoS not providing the 4 dlc that has so many people up in arms, had they provided thit (or some of it) while some would still be annoyed, I suspect most would be happy.

Again I hope you are right and Morrowind does in fact turn out to be an expansion, but from their description, it only has 10 hrs more content than Orsinium, and part of me thinks that one of the upstairs suits thought to themselves "hmm, Morrowind will sell bucket loads, lets call it an expansion and make everyone buy it"

The problem for ZoS is they have said so many different things under official capacity (or with official people as in my last example).

At Quakecon 2015 Matt Firor

00:20:00


Expect to see a named dlc pack of some kind quarterly.

So every 12 weeks or so you will see something named with the cool concept, content, new systems, things like that.

The way it works is if you are an ESO+ member you get all the dlc content included as part of eso+ for as long as you are a subscriber.

You can of course purchase it from the store if you want to

or ESO Live Today Feb 13th 2015

00:16:30

ESO Plus members, while you are a member you have access to the regions, so different dungeons, additional content, you're going to have access to that.

and http://www.polygon.com/features/2016/10/14/13285014/elder-scrolls-online-one-tamriel-skyrim-mmo

After a six-month delay, announced in December 2014, there was one major change that happened on the way to the console launch. On March 17, The Elder Scrolls Online got a new name — The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited.

That same day, it also dropped its subscription model.

Players can still pay a monthly fee, but instead of allowing access to a game they already paid full price for, that membership gives them in-game currency — called crowns — to spend on things like cosmetic items and mounts. It now also offers access to all of the game’s content expansions, including new regions of Tamriel.

DLC is still available for purchase a la carte, but for subscribers it’s all completely free.

"I was one of the big proponents of that change," Hines said. "My thought was ... that if we didn’t require it, but we made it cool, that we would get a ton of subscribers. People would pay the fee just because they could, as opposed to us forcing them to pay it.

"Just like in the Elder Scrolls games themselves, players wanted to be able to choose. They just didn’t want to have to do something."

ACTIVE PLAYERS ON PC NEARLY TRIPLED OVERNIGHT.

The gambit worked. On March 17, 2015 ESO had the same average number of players that it had had for most of the year. The next day, it had nearly three times that number.

and I wonder whether it's due to the above that they decided to call it a chapter rather than an expansion

Mwnci

old_mufasa wrote: »

It's stupid bring up what wow gives in its expansions vs Morrowind.. Morrowind is a glorified DLC hardly bigger then Orsinium DLC...

That we know of. Still 4 months left. I'll rather wait and see how big it actually is.

ESO is not WoW, comparing the contents is not exactly fair. My point was that Matt's argument that Morrowind is not an expansion because of some silly half-truth is false.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Morrowind: 30 hours of story content, 3 battle ground, 1 new class, 1 trial, 1 new zone (charging 40 dollars even to those who are ESO plus members)

Morrowind is considered by ZOS to be an expansion, sorry, a Chapter. Meaning it's not a DLC, regardless of what you think of it, and so we all must pay for it.

old_mufasa wrote: »

This is on top of a 6 month hiatus of new content DLC even though new dlc was promised to ESO plus members ever 12 weeks and that instead of being granted to ESO plus members its being charged extra.

Another poster has said that they aimed to provide one DLC each quarter. This doesn't mean they will, or can.

old_mufasa wrote: »

WoW expansions are 10x bigger then what Morrowind is offerings.

Again, not my point.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Also WoW has updates through the life cycle of expansions that are given to there subs..

And ESO doesn't provide updates?

old_mufasa wrote: »

There is no comparison between the amount of content you get for WoW's expansions vs ESO "chapter" DLC.

Correct, there isn't. I wasn't comparing the content. I was using Legion as an example that expansions are not always about existing, or high level players.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Also when you buy a wow expansion as a new player you get all the old expansions for FREE!!

Unless it's changed, you cannot buy Legion and then login and play. You'll need to buy the base game which has all the expansions up to WoD and then you can buy Legion and play it.

MLGProPlayer

Mwnci wrote: »

First and foremost, Morrowind is an expansion not a DLC, and yes, there is a difference, and yes people confuse the two. Don't believe me? Google it. I promise you there's a difference.

There actually is no industry standard on this. The terms are used interchangeably by different developers, retailers, and gaming publications.

As I've posted in other threads on this topic, here is a Gamespot article calling Orsinium an expansion. Here is an IGN article calling the Witcher 3 expansion, Blood & Wine, a DLC.

Then you have Steam, which calls any add-on content a DLC.

old_mufasa

Mwnci wrote: »

old_mufasa wrote: »

It's stupid bring up what wow gives in its expansions vs Morrowind.. Morrowind is a glorified DLC hardly bigger then Orsinium DLC...

That we know of. Still 4 months left. I'll rather wait and see how big it actually is.

ESO is not WoW, comparing the contents is not exactly fair. My point was that Matt's argument that Morrowind is not an expansion because of some silly half-truth is false.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Morrowind: 30 hours of story content, 3 battle ground, 1 new class, 1 trial, 1 new zone (charging 40 dollars even to those who are ESO plus members)

Morrowind is considered by ZOS to be an expansion, sorry, a Chapter. Meaning it's not a DLC, regardless of what you think of it, and so we all must pay for it.

old_mufasa wrote: »

This is on top of a 6 month hiatus of new content DLC even though new dlc was promised to ESO plus members ever 12 weeks and that instead of being granted to ESO plus members its being charged extra.

Another poster has said that they aimed to provide one DLC each quarter. This doesn't mean they will, or can.

old_mufasa wrote: »

WoW expansions are 10x bigger then what Morrowind is offerings.

Again, not my point.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Also WoW has updates through the life cycle of expansions that are given to there subs..

And ESO doesn't provide updates?

old_mufasa wrote: »

There is no comparison between the amount of content you get for WoW's expansions vs ESO "chapter" DLC.

Correct, there isn't. I wasn't comparing the content. I was using Legion as an example that expansions are not always about existing, or high level players.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Also when you buy a wow expansion as a new player you get all the old expansions for FREE!!

Unless it's changed, you cannot buy Legion and then login and play. You'll need to buy the base game which has all the expansions up to WoD and then you can buy Legion and play it.

"That we know of. Still 4 months left. I'll rather wait and see how big it actually is. "

What the heck are you talking about? they said 30 hours of content... what more do you need for them to tattoo it to you?

Also they stated that ALL DLC and expansions would be given to ESO plus... No matter how you want to try to spin this.. Morrowind is downloadable content and expands on the game and is taking up one of the every 12 week DLC's they advertised to esp plus members .. so they are violating multiple aspects of there advertised eso plus benefits.

Just because they say chapters.. and they are calling it that because they already stated that all DLC and expansions come with eso plus does not mean its not a bait and switch...

Its like trying to say well this turd isn't really a turd because we labeled it a flower...

Mwnci

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

There actually is no industry standard on this. The terms are used interchangeably by different developers,

Usually, yes - because they can mean the same thing. EG: The zombie campaign on COD despite it being the size of a damn expansion ( seriously, it was like a whole campaign.. crazy) is -according to IW- a DLC.

However, by stating that it's "not an expansion but a Chapter because [fluffy unbelievable reasons here]" as Matt did, all he's done is give ESO:MW a fancy title to make it sound impressive, but at it's core it's still an expansion.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

retailers, and gaming publications.

These people don't count. At all. Some of them even say "DLC Expansion" .. *shudder*

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

As I've posted in other threads on this topic, here is a Gamespot article calling Orsinium an expansion. Here is an IGN article calling the Witcher 3 expansion, Blood & Wine, a DLC.

Fun story: Kotaku, Polygon, Eurogamer, VG247, Gematsu, USGamer.. they're all calling Morrowind an expansion. Now what?
Also if we go to http://thewitcher.com/en/witcher3 we find that PrjRED called them expansions; hell, they even call it an expansion pass.
Like I said, retailers and gaming pubs don't count. Focus on what the developer says, only his words matter.
And whilst ZOS don't want us to see Morrowind as an expansion, they'd made it crystal clear it's certainly not a DLC.

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Then you have Steam, which calls any add-on content a DLC.

Steam are idiots.

Mwnci

old_mufasa wrote: »

What the heck are you talking about? they said 30 hours of content... what more do you need for them to tattoo it to you?

I find that kind of vague.
Not to mention we have no idea what it all entails.
They say 30 hours of content, is that just the release or for the rest of the year?
Try to think outside the box please, I don't want to have to explain every little thing I say.

old_mufasa wrote: »

Also they stated that ALL DLC and expansions would be given to ESO plus...

Source?
And it better be a TOS/EULA level agreement, because a vague "all dlc and expansions" blah blah at like E3 announcement during early Alpha.. is not going to fly.

Ojustaboo

Mwnci wrote: »

Source?
And it better be a TOS/EULA level agreement, because a vague "all dlc and expansions" blah blah at like E3 announcement during early Alpha.. is not going to fly.

The problem is, neither the EULA or ToS appear to mention ESO Plus at all. And as the ToS is over 10,000 words, no sane person can be expected to re-read it every few months to see if anything has changed.

If there is a major change to what's provided, it should be spelled out to everyone in plain English, in a way that everyone is aware of, such as on the launcher.

I have just searched through the 10000+ new terms of service from around March 2016, and there is zero mention of ESO Plus in it. There is a description of what downloaded Content is

Downloadable Content, Achievements, and Other Virtual Items

Content also includes Content that is downloaded or downloadable from any website under ZeniMax's control ("Downloadable Content"), provided that the term Downloadable Content does not include Game Mods (as defined below). Downloadable Content includes, but is not limited to, licensed rights granted, awarded, and/or provided to You to access and/or use online or off-line elements or features of certain Services as well as Game updates, unlockable Content, digital and/or virtual assets, rights of use tied to unlock keys or codes, serial codes and/or online authentication of any kind, in-game achievements, video trailers, Game screenshots, and/or Game-related wallpapers

and from the above bit of their ToS, it could be argued that in their own words, dlc is anything downloaded, hence would include expansions

I would strongly argue that when there's a major release of a new way of paying for a game, when in the months closely before and some in the few months after:-

We are told in official online vids (whether ESO live or Quakecon) by Zos employees what the benefit of subscribing is,

or where Zos employees are also speaking about it in gaming articles while being interviewed, (and I'd expect if a interviewer said incorrect facts and Zos realised after the article was posted, Zos would either try to get them to correct it, or point out on Zos own site that the article has got it's facts wrong)

and on top of that, when there appears to be no mention of it in either the ToS, or the EULA (which doesn't appear to have changed at all in ages as mine is dated March 17 2015), then it's very very reasonable for us to take what was said in those vids etc s as what we will get, until they clearly tell us otherwise.

Ojustaboo

On a side note, I've just watched this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RxYZLOS5Jw

Watch from 16:50 to 18:40

Right now you are looking at Orsinium or Wrothgar which is probably scheduled to be one of our earlier packs and you know, if you decide you want to buy it separately as dlc you can do that, if you decide you want to become an ESO Plus member, then this will come with ESO Plus, and I think thats one of the cool things, so for people who still like kind of the model that goes with subscription, the dlc will absolutely support that, here you can see some work we've done with Clockwork City. So there's a lot of cool places that people are going to want to visit and open up and there's multiple ways to get to these areas, and its basically just allowing people who want the option of how they want the dlc, how they want to pay for it, it's giving them more option.

that to me is them telling me Clockwork City is part of the DLC for ESO plus

Hand_Bacon

don't make me post "Frozen" memes...