Just a quick comparison

MorHawk

I haven't been on these forums in a long time, but I couldn't resist comparing the wording regarding ESO Plus in an email I received several months ago:

As opposed to how it was worded very recently:

Notice the subtle extra qualification in the latter. Methinks that if this distinction had been made at first, there would be far less rage right now. Of course, there would quite likely have been far fewer subs too...

Betheny

My guess is it only just occurred to someone there to start selling DLC to us for big bucks instead of basically giving it away...and they wanted subscriber money as well. Then Chapters were born!

Stovahkiin

Okay

MorHawk

Betheny wrote: »

My guess is it only just occurred to someone there to start selling DLC to us for big bucks instead of basically giving it away...and they wanted subscriber money as well. Then Chapters were born!

A fairly reasonable assumption. It just kinda hurts my brain that so many people here are apparently swallowing this as okay. It is unambiguously apparent that they are forcibly coercing loyal customers to fork over more money, and yet folks are parroting an entirely arbitrary distinction as though it were gospel.

MLGProPlayer

They also got rid of this advertisement:

MLGProPlayer

This is what qualifies as "shady", and it leaves a bad taste in people's mouths.

ZOS needs to get better at communicating with its customers and not working behind our backs. People won't complain as much about every change if you are honest and open about it.

ZiRM

It's a business, they want to make $$$$, bend over.

MythicEmperor

Pick your battles. I'm a sub, but I am far more worried about the long-term impact of clown crates.

LordGavus

MorHawk wrote: »

Notice the subtle extra qualification in the latter. Methinks that if this distinction had been made at first, there would be far less rage right now. Of course, there would quite likely have been far fewer subs too...

I don't know. Even if the latter wording had always been, I think people would just move their rage to the expansion not being in the crown store.

I imagine the argument would be something like 'all other dlc is in to crown store, you can't just exclude content from the crown store so people have to pay extra for it'

esotoon

Guess whoever updates the Crown Store didn't get the memo.

Patrickaus

Surely the expansion will end up in the Crown Store eventually? I can't imagine them leaving it out of the Crown Store forever. The Crown Store would be a major point of sale... very convenient for existing players to buy stuff. We'll have to wait and see.

esotoon

Patrickaus wrote: »

Surely the expansion will end up in the Crown Store eventually? I can't imagine them leaving it out of the Crown Store forever. The Crown Store would be a major point of sale... very convenient for existing players to buy stuff. We'll have to wait and see.

It's been stated that they won't be available in the Crown Store. Will they ever be available in the Crown Store? That' s an impossible thing to say given that they have, and continue to change their business model. However as of right now, nope.

Mwnci

The rage is there for two reasons.

First and foremost, Morrowind is an expansion not a DLC, and yes, there is a difference, and yes people confuse the two. Don't believe me? Google it. I promise you there's a difference.

And second ( this will likely offend some people, so heads up):
Those people who raged are most likely ignorant to how the world works WRT contracts, services, terms of use, and how a company like ZOS holds all the cards and grants the player a select few liberties.

They're the same people who believe they own the rights to a video game and that a developer has some kind of unwaivable contract with them. For example, they're the players who demand compensation when the servers are down.

They make assumptions where there are none, that what they signed up for is a "forever and always" package, when it's not.

These are the players who believe that their monthly subscription gives them certain entitlements and rights, when the EULA/TOS they agreed to when playing the game clearly states they do not.
They are the people who didn't bother to read the EULA/TOS which states, for example, that ZOS has the right to change their services and offerings whenever they like.
In fact, part of the EULA/TOS clearly states that should ZOS make a material change ( I believe this falls within that category, I may be wrong though ), they only have to provide a 30 day notice, considering Morrowind isn't out till, what, June? That's more than sufficient notice.

The rage is there through ignorance and a simple misunderstanding on the customers part, both with regards to the definitions of DLC/Expansion and the terms of the agreements they signed.

esotoon

Mwnci wrote: »

The rage is there for two reasons.

Not going to go over it again, but please see the other threads on this topic, so you can understand, the reasons you stated aren't the reasons some people are upset. And please also understand that different countries/regions have different laws with regards to consumer protection, and the legality/weight of EULAs when it comes to said laws (See ESO's own t&c's to see how these different exceptions are clearly stated). So what you may see as ignorance, may simply be other people expressing what they expect from a company due to the different laws and customs when it comes to consumer protection where they are from.

corrosivechains

Mwnci wrote: »

The rage is there for two reasons.

First and foremost, Morrowind is an expansion not a DLC, and yes, there is a difference, and yes people confuse the two. Don't believe me? Google it. I promise you there's a difference.

And second ( this will likely offend some people, so heads up):
Those people who raged are most likely ignorant to how the world works WRT contracts, services, terms of use, and how a company like ZOS holds all the cards and grants the player a select few liberties.

They're the same people who believe they own the rights to a video game and that a developer has some kind of unwaivable contract with them. For example, they're the players who demand compensation when the servers are down.

They make assumptions where there are none, that what they signed up for is a "forever and always" package, when it's not.

These are the players who believe that their monthly subscription gives them certain entitlements and rights, when the EULA/TOS they agreed to when playing the game clearly states they do not.
They are the people who didn't bother to read the EULA/TOS which states, for example, that ZOS has the right to change their services and offerings whenever they like.
In fact, part of the EULA/TOS clearly states that should ZOS make a material change ( I believe this falls within that category, I may be wrong though ), they only have to provide a 30 day notice, considering Morrowind isn't out till, what, June? That's more than sufficient notice.

The rage is there through ignorance and a simple misunderstanding on the customers part, both with regards to the definitions of DLC/Expansion and the terms of the agreements they signed.

It isn't an expansion. ZoS has said they don't want to call it an expansion, hence why they are calling it a chapter. The only people at this point calling it an expansion are people trying to belittle subscribers.

Mwnci

esotoon wrote: »

Not going to go over it again, but please see the other threads on this topic, so you can understand, the reasons you stated aren't the reasons some people are upset.

The second response by Betheny wrongly assumes that Morrowind is a DLC; with the OP and the other responses not much different. This thread is definitely about not knowing the difference between DLC and an expansion.

esotoon wrote: »

And please also understand that different countries/regions have different laws with regards to consumer protection, and the legality/weight of EULAs when it comes to said laws (See ESO's own t&c's to see how these different exceptions are clearly stated). So what you may see as ignorance, may simply be other people expressing what they expect from a company due to the different laws and customs when it comes to consumer protection where they are from.

IMHO what people expect is largely irrelevant. ZOS undoubtedly made their EULA/TOS fit for each country, and it's the players responsibility to read it and understand it as it pertains to their country. Some clearly haven't.

Nevertheless, it still boils down to a simple misunderstanding of the differences between DLC and expansion, regardless of how slight they may be.

Shadows of the Hist is a DLC, it's got a tiny amount of content.
Where as Morrowind has a large amount of new content alongside the largest landmass addition to date. It's an expansion.

They are not the same thing, and expecting Morrowind to be included as part of ESO+ is either ignorance, or entitlement. I was being relatively polite and giving people the benefit of the doubt that it's due to ignorance.

All that said, it's not about consumer protection and customer expectations, it's about terminology and how accurate terminology needs to be in any contract. ZOS said all DLC are free, and they are... but Morrowind is an expansion, so we don't get it for free.

SaRuZ

Who cares? Unsub and get over it.

Mwnci

corrosivechains wrote: »

It isn't an expansion.

Yes. It is.

corrosivechains wrote: »

ZoS has said they don't want to call it an expansion, hence why they are calling it a chapter.

"they don't want to call it an expansion" .. exactly, they don't want to but that doesn't change what it is.

It doesn't matter what they call it anyway, because it's still not a DLC, and therefore not subject to the ESO+ bonus.

corrosivechains wrote: »

The only people at this point calling it an expansion are people trying to belittle
subscribers.

Yes, I'm trying to belittle myself. Twice over in fact because I have two subs.

sadownik

@Mwnci First please show me definition of expansion, second show me where ZOS stated they are releasing expansion?

And you know why you wont find official ZOS statement about releasing expansion? ZOS doesn't want us to start comparing the scope of the "chapter" with what other MMOs nowadays call expansions.

SaRuZ

Quite honestly you subscribed to a game that no longer requires a subscription to play. You get 1,500 crowns(valued at $15.00 USD) Craft Bag and Access to DLC.

You are under no contractual obligation to continue subscribing. Subscriptions are Month-to-month and you can cancel subscription at Any Time. Nobody lied to you. You DO have ACCESS to DLC. See Imperial City, Orsinium, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood? Did you lose access? No? Then shut up already. I forked over the $40 for the DLC Mega Pack. I own it. I also just began Subscribing on my wife's account so she can have crowns & craft bag. Oh, I bought the mega DLC pack for her as well so that was $80 altogether.

Also she wants the physical collectors edition and I will need the Morrowind add on so easily another $100. Am I crying ? No. I like this game

Mwnci

sadownik wrote: »

@Mwnci First please show me definition of expansion,

Do I really need to show you how to use Google? Come on, dude.

sadownik wrote: »

second show me where ZOS stated they are releasing expansion?

If BMW refuse to call their next new model a car, are you seriously going to try to defend it?
That said, it really doesn't matter what ZOS want to call it, any additional content on this scale, sold as a separate retail product, is known as an expansion.

sadownik wrote: »

And you know why you wont find official ZOS statement about releasing expansion? ZOS doesn't want us to start comparing the scope of the "chapter" with what other MMOs nowadays call expansions.

Not according to the Welcome to 2017 letter.

I quote:

In any other game of this type, these would be called “expansions" – but ESO is a game unlike any other. Because ESO is not level-based, Chapters don't fit the general definition of an “expansion," which typically, in MMO-speak, means it is aimed only at existing (and usually high level) players.

So, the only difference between WoW: Legion and ESO: Morrowind is that WoW: Legion is aimed at existing, or usually high level players, but ESO: Morrowind is not? ...

Fair enough ...
Except that in WoW: Legion you can buy it brand new, use your level boost to raise you to 100 and then start a fresh new game as a Demon Hunter if that's what you wanted.

So.. is WoW: Legion a Chapter? Or an Expansion?

Rhetorical question.

Regardless of what ESO wants to advertise it as ( and they are more than welcome to do so ), it is still an expansion. It will always be an expansion.

esotoon

SaRuZ wrote: »

You are under no contractual obligation to continue subscribing. Subscriptions are Month-to-month and you can cancel subscription at Any Time.

Some players are subbed for six months at a time. According to the t&c's there is no refund should you cancel before that time is up.

Last time they changed their business model, they allowed people to unsub without penalty. This time there is zero mention of it. We were told we could expect 4 DLCs a year. After two straight quarters without DLC they announce they have changed their business model and that there would be no more DLC until Q3 2017. Anyone who resubbed between the last DLC and the 30th January had no idea this model had changed. As a result they will go up 12 months without any DLC. Whether you call that lying or not, depends on your personal definition. Some people consider it pretty shady.

esotoon

Mwnci wrote: »

The second response by Betheny wrongly assumes that Morrowind is a DLC; with the OP and the other responses not much different. This thread is definitely about not knowing the difference between DLC and an expansion.

I may be wrong, but I believe the OP posted the comparison because people in those other threads defending Zos' actions were stating that the t&c's clearly stated when we subscribed that it is only DLC from the Crown Store that was part of the terms of the subscription. The point being, it didn't, the wording was only recently changed.

Nevertheless, it still boils down to a simple misunderstanding of the differences between DLC and expansion, regardless of how slight they may be.

And so another thread is spawned arguing the same points.

In short. There is no defined definition of what is DLC and what is an Expansion Pack. ZOS has never defined this. There is only comparisons to other games in the genre, which don't necessarily hold weight because ESO is it's own entity with it's own stated business models. Even now they are not calling it an expansion pack, and went as far as to say they don't want to call it an Expansion Pack. They are calling it a 'Chapter', and they have now indicated what that means in their 2017 Year Ahead article.

Shadows of the Hist is a DLC, it's got a tiny amount of content.
Where as Morrowind has a large amount of new content alongside the largest landmass addition to date. It's an expansion.

Yes, taken as a singular entity, it is indeed larger than DLCs we have had before. From what we have been told, it is the equivalent content of 3 DLCs. However, when taken in context of coming out after straight 3 quarters without any DLC, to a subscriber who had previously been told that ZOS aimed to release 1 DLC per quarter, it isn't larger than the content they (rightly or wrongly) expected to have access to by Q2 2017 in return for their subscription.

sadownik

@Mwnci Google can support our brains but thats it. Expansion in MMO is always DLC but not every DLC is expansion. If you want to hold to the most popular definitions many of the updates or patches in ESO are DLC's. One could even dare to say that, with help of Google, updates such as Orsinium, IC, TG and DB are in fact expansions.

Mwnci

esotoon wrote: »

I may be wrong, but I believe the OP posted the comparison because people in those other threads defending Zos' actions were stating that the t&c's clearly stated when we subscribed that it is only DLC from the Crown Store that was part of the terms of the subscription. The point being, it didn't, the wording was only recently changed.

Fair point, I submit I may have misinterpreted OP's post.

esotoon wrote: »

And so another thread is spawned arguing the same points.

Since I've already addressed ZOS's use of the term "Chapter", we can leave the topic alone if you like? Since it's likely been belabored to death, anyway. xD

esotoon wrote: »

Yes, taken as a singular entity, it is indeed larger than DLCs we have had before. From what we have been told, it is the equivalent content of 3 DLCs. However, when taken in context of coming out after straight 3 quarters without any DLC, to a subscriber who had previously been told that ZOS aimed to release 1 DLC per quarter, it isn't larger than the content they (rightly or wrongly) expected to have access to by Q2 2017 in return for their subscription.

I'm not going to compare Morrowind against the missing 3 DLC's because that sounds like an argument wrought with assumptions.
However, I can agree that not receiving the expected 3 DLC is a big problem, even if it is because they were developing Morrowind.

esotoon

Mwnci wrote: »

Since I've already addressed ZOS's use of the term "Chapter", we can leave the topic alone if you like? Since it's likely been belabored to death, anyway. xD

Sounds like a plan

Wish there was a 'highlights' thread where people newly interested in the topic can see the main points made by all sides. Trolling through multiple threads to find the signal amongst the noise can be next to impossible. LOL

Mwnci

sadownik wrote: »

@Mwnci Google can support our brains but thats it. Expansion in MMO is always DLC but not every DLC is expansion. If you want to hold to the most popular definitions many of the updates or patches in ESO are DLC's. One could even dare to say that, with help of Google, updates such as Orsinium, IC, TG and DB are in fact expansions.

I do hold the most popular definition of expansion, and whilst O/IC/TG/DB do offer a goodly amount of new content, there isn't sufficient content to warrant them being seen as expansions. Akin to Fallout 4: Far Harbor which is still a DLC, albeit a rather expensive one.
Place the above-mentioned DLC's besides, for example, WoW: Legion, and it's distinctions are clear.

As I mentioned to esotoon though, I'll happily put this discussion to another thread instead of continuing my potential misinterpretation of OP's post.

alephthiago

Well, this is my plan, already in motion:
-Copy all craft stations for sets in dlc areas.
-Farm the motif in cradle of shadows.
-Get all achievements awarding costumes and such in dlc areas. (in progress)
-Buy Orsinium with all crowns i have left (IC is mine already). (in progress)
-Manage my inventory and guild bank to leave space for every single crafting item i might come across. (in progress)
-Unsub and set my trust bar far lower regarding zenimax policies from 6/10 to 4/10.

They arent getting 100$ from me every year from now on, only 40$.

After all regarding real content, we have 3 updates including homestead where being a subscriber means NOTHING.

Mwnci

esotoon wrote: »

Mwnci wrote: »

Since I've already addressed ZOS's use of the term "Chapter", we can leave the topic alone if you like? Since it's likely been belabored to death, anyway. xD

Sounds like a plan

Wish there was a 'highlights' thread where people newly interested in the topic can see the main points made by all sides. Trolling through multiple threads to find the signal amongst the noise can be next to impossible. LOL

Would be really helpful.

Cously

It is in their right to change the business model, after the game went B2P we shouldn't be surprised. The prospect is concerning however, tolerable for now.

sadownik

Cously wrote: »

It is in their right to change the business model, after the game went B2P we shouldn't be surprised. The prospect is concerning however, tolerable for now.

@Cously my sentiment exactly. Though im not subbing since b2p and frankly havent loged in for months was thinking about trying the game after Diorama dlc