Endgame PvE DPS needs adjustments before this patch goes live

Stamden

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_EricWrobel


Endgame PvE DPS is extremely unbalanced right now. Considering this is supposed to be "the balance patch", this really needs looking into before this patch goes live. So first let's compare each setup. Thankfully @Alcast did some testing on all the endgame setups.

Magika:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0T4vxgRdN8&t

Stamina:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lPuAx65-dE

Results:

Mag DK - 36k
Mag Sorc - 41k
Mag NB - 36k
Mag Templar - 37k
All Stam setups - ~32k

Problems:

Stamina - First of all, no stam setup can compete with mag setup. Stam setups already have the major downside of having less AoE, less utility, and less survivability than their magika counterparts. There is no reason to bring a stam character into a trial environment at all.

The Sorc Gap - The next problem is the immense gap in DPS between Mag Sorcs and all of the other magika classes. A difference of 5k is huge when going for scores. Optimal raid setups are only going to use Sorcs for DPS. The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Melee - Ideally, melee characters should be rewarded for having to go in melee range. Certain bosses cater much more to ranged setups, and being melee you expose yourself to more mechanics to deal with. Melee setups should at least have the same, or better DPS than ranged setups. In these tests, the opposite effect is shown. Stam setups and Mag DK are the ones that are most limited to melee for their rotation, while they also have the lowest DPS.

Sustainability - Notice how some setups struggle to keep up magika/stamina doing these rotations much more than others. For example, Mag Temp does not go below 80% magika in the entire fight, while Mag DK cannot sustain the rotation for very long at all. In long boss fights, setups that cannot maintain the rotation during entire fight are a hindrance to total DPS of the group.

I know the patch drops in 2 weeks, but these problems need to be addressed before the patch drops or else endgame PvE is going to be very limiting to certain setups. Considering this game does not receive patches very often, and balance changes even less often, this needs to be looked at immediately.

Asmael

Tiny note: the stam tests were done without Major Fracture, while the mag ones were done with Ele drain.

That being said, stam still has 25% of the cleave, 50% of the shield, melee only, and will see no competitive play either way.

If that stays as is, yup, prepare for 1-2 mag DKs in raid for the chains / engulfing (only the trials where it's absolutely required and the tanks can't do it), rest mag sorcs.

So much for diversity.

rustic_potato

Neighbor wrote: »

The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Are you serious? mSorcs have the most screwed up rotation in the game and they run out of magika in 75 seconds into the fight.. Posts like these are the reason we need a LOL button on the forums..

Foxic

rustic_potato wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Are you serious? mSorcs have the most screwed up rotation in the game and they run out of magika in 75 seconds into the fight.. Posts like these are the reason we need a LOL button on the forums..

On live I'll agree with you. The new haunt makes sorc easy mode

Stamden

rustic_potato wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Are you serious? mSorcs have the most screwed up rotation in the game and they run out of magika in 75 seconds into the fight..

Have you tried the new curse at all? And the magika sustain is still better than DK..

Dagoth_Rac

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

rustic_potato wrote: »

Neighbor wrote: »

The fact that their rotation is relatively simple and they don't have much trouble with magika is just icing on the cake.

Are you serious? mSorcs have the most screwed up rotation in the game and they run out of magika in 75 seconds into the fight.. Posts like these are the reason we need a LOL button on the forums..

On live I'll agree with you. The new haunt makes sorc easy mode

I can see new Curse improving DPS, but how does it improve sustain? It is not like you stand there and do nothing at time you would reapply Curse. You slot in an extra Force Pulse or something like that. So you are not saving the cost of the extra Curse casts on live. You are switching them out for another skill that probably uses a similar amount of magicka.

Strider_Roshin

Magicka players can try to defend their OPness, but here are the facts:

Current on live magicka is superior. Which is why you don't see any more than 2 stamina out of a team of 12.

When update 13 goes live. Stamina players might as well find something else to play until ZOS gives you a reason to login.

ZoM_Head

The mDK in that video can get some work on better rotation and inner light on back bar and Alcast does not usually play an mDk as far as i know.

I also do not know why jabs were not used on a stamina templar, it does get reduced cost and sweep now does physical dmg which was not used, would be nice to see.

But one video with lag and high ping on PTS does not really do justice as well....hard to say generally how the numbers are going to be like.

ZoM_Head

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Magicka players can try to defend their OPness, but here are the facts:

Current on live magicka is superior. Which is why you don't see any more than 2 stamina out of a team of 12.

When update 13 goes live. Stamina players might as well find something else to play until ZOS gives you a reason to login.

Not only that,. Magicka gets shields and are indeed easier to heal. All stam builds (except templar) use the same rotation as well so....

Strider_Roshin

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Magicka players can try to defend their OPness, but here are the facts:

Current on live magicka is superior. Which is why you don't see any more than 2 stamina out of a team of 12.

When update 13 goes live. Stamina players might as well find something else to play until ZOS gives you a reason to login.

Not only that,. Magicka gets shields and are indeed easier to heal. All stam builds (except templar) use the same rotation as well so....

Lol that's because stam never really was that OP. It was the Maelstrom daggers that were OP. That's why all PvE stam build look the same.

Stamden

ZoM_Head wrote: »

The mDK in that video can get some work on better rotation and inner light on back bar and Alcast does not usually play an mDk as far as i know.

I also do not know why jabs were not used on a stamina templar, it does get reduced cost and sweep now does physical dmg which was not used, would be nice to see.

But one video with lag and high ping on PTS does not really do justice as well....hard to say generally how the numbers are going to be like.

It doesn't matter if the DPS values are 1-2k off of what they can be. The same, core problems still remain:

1. Stamina setups are irrelevant
2. Mag Sorcs are miles ahead of everyone else

Anhedonie

1. Buff stamina single target damage, give them more AOE. Survivability is fine.
2. Nerf maelstrom daggers, so they only give 500 wpd on proc.
3. Also, both stamina and magicka need improvements in resource managment.

ZoM_Head

Neighbor wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

The mDK in that video can get some work on better rotation and inner light on back bar and Alcast does not usually play an mDk as far as i know.

I also do not know why jabs were not used on a stamina templar, it does get reduced cost and sweep now does physical dmg which was not used, would be nice to see.

But one video with lag and high ping on PTS does not really do justice as well....hard to say generally how the numbers are going to be like.

It doesn't matter if the DPS values are 1-2k off of what they can be. The same, core problems still remain:

1. Stamina setups are irrelevant
2. Mag Sorcs are miles ahead of everyone else

I always see at the very least 5K+ DPS difference between PTS and live in solo/small group testing, the lag IS a major issue for EU chars on the PTS surely.

But that is not the point of this thread, but numbers will be higher on live and sadly for us in EU only then can we really see what each build can reach in solo/dungeons/trails.

PurifedBladez

This is kinda ***.. gotta love zos.

aLi3nZ

As someone who only plays magika toons and mains a magika sorc. Thank you for this good news.

OrphanHelgen

The last 5 raiding days I have done with my guild, I was the only stamina.
This is on current live patch, just saying Will be worse in 2 weeks.

Voryn_Dagoth

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

Metafae

I agree with a lot of this, and I feel that Stamina needs a boost, as well as options to become ranged viably.

If they cannot ever become viable as ranged dps, then it needs to be said that all the magic builds should be encouraged to go ranged only. Currently, only Sorcs and NB are made to be ranged, but NB can be melee if they wanted to be.

The fire mage and templar should be made to have ranged skills, like making jabs a ranged attack, and no longer heal, or reduce the healing a lot.

Then they should make new content where its important to have a mix of melee and ranged to have the content go more smoothly.

I dunno, I'm not a genius, I'm just farting out ideas.

Ghostextechnica

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

That kinda suggests Stam dps will be even worse as it's harder for them to dodge red circles and stay on target

SickDuck

You are doing it all wrong. Magicka meant to be for pve while stamina is for pvp play (as you like). Clear as day.

Even essential skills as vigor and caltrops are in the pvp lines. Stop harassing ZOS and take the hint!

CubanRay

SickDuck wrote: »

You are doing it all wrong. Magicka meant to be for pve while stamina is for pvp play (as you like). Clear as day.

Even essential skills as vigor and caltrops are in the pvp lines. Stop harassing ZOS and take the hint!

This is probably the most *** post I have come across,you are worst than ZOS,please nerf yourself.

ryanborror

You are comparing magic with maelstrom weapons against stam without. In his video of stam with vma weapons the numbers are a bit more balanced:
Templar 35.3k
Sorc 34.9k
NB 36.5k
DK 35.6k

GawdSB

There was a lot of things he excluded from using that I believe effected the results as well as they are a lot closer when he used maelstrom weapons.

But yes, when I finally get into trials I'll be using my magicka character probably.

The_Saint

I know most will just look at the numbers and maybe zos also in there test...
So i just want to say nb (mag and stamina) are the only one with minor beserk here. In raids where everyone has combat prayer other classes has 8% more dps then nb here...

Stamden

ryanborror wrote: »

You are comparing magic with maelstrom weapons against stam without. In his video of stam with vma weapons the numbers are a bit more balanced:
Templar 35.3k
Sorc 34.9k
NB 36.5k
DK 35.6k

Thanks for pointing this out. Though I still don't see stamina setups being worth it all when considering AoE and utility.

Strider_Roshin

The issue is that we've given our feedback, and provided the empirical data to support our argument.

Clearly we need to take a page out of the magicka community's book, and just whine, and make nonsensical claims. Apparently that's the only way things get done around here.

MLGProPlayer

Voryn_Dagoth wrote: »

In regards to Magicka and Sorcerers: The tests were on a non-moving, non-fighting target, so it has to be seen, whether the Sorcerers and their pets will have the same result on live targets. It is a great first impression, but not enough to judge balance deficiencies.

Apparantly people are pulling the same dps if not more without the pet. They are in a class of their own right now and the other magicka classes don't even come close.

Shadzilla

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

The last 5 raiding days I have done with my guild, I was the only stamina.
This is on current live patch, just saying Will be worse in 2 weeks.

So true. @ZOS_GinaBruno You guys should make a little icon beside class for leaderboards that indicates stam or mag. Then when all you see is 90% mag classes all over the top of the leaderboards maybe you will give your head a shake. Dragonstar and maelstrom? Sure stam is great! AA HRC SO MOL? Stamina are extinct, even with the current live servers. Stam needs AOE dps and a spammable shield...

Shunravi

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

The issue is that we've given our feedback, and provided the empirical data to support our argument.

Clearly we need to take a page out of the magicka community's book, and just whine, and make nonsensical claims. Apparently that's the only way things get done around here.

Well thats how classes got stam abilities in the first place.... its worth a shot.

Alcast

If people only would LISTEN to what I am saying in those videos....god...

Shadzilla

Shunravi wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

The issue is that we've given our feedback, and provided the empirical data to support our argument.

Clearly we need to take a page out of the magicka community's book, and just whine, and make nonsensical claims. Apparently that's the only way things get done around here.

Well thats how classes got stam abilities in the first place.... its worth a shot.

That literally is the only thing to do... Only issue is this game has had a magicka meta for 2.5 years and stamina has been meta for 2 patches out of the entire lifespan of the game. No one plays stamina PVE. Even the small amount of people that love stamina cannot play it because end game trial scores are so hindered by stam toons.