Show us that you care!

Nightzerk

For the last couple of years (every day since release) a lot of the player base feels like they're being ignored when it comes to complaints, feedback and all sorts of critisism. While the lag renders PvP unplayable and the eso plus membership offers little to nothing for PvP'ers there hasn't been one single comment from you guys on it. Keep in mind, the ones that are still paying for the plus membership and dont like anything but PvP basicly pay for something that is unplayable. I've spent way too much time and effort and money on this game because I had this crazy thought that you would do something about it, at least give us some answers to our feedback regarding how you will change things for PvP. It is so important to have a healthy attitude towards those that play this game, how can you not see that? I can not say this enough times; start to give us info on your progress and thoughts about how to improve the game lag wise. What you're doing is simply a scam. You owe us all an appology. Sorry if I sound entitled but its simply not acceptable anymore.

Kind (but salty) regards,

Kendo12

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

Sigtric

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

NewBlacksmurf

Prob a better solution to act by not buying certain things that don't align with your interests.

I understand your point of view but it shouldn't be expected that any company responds to most feedback especially in terms of making changes

We all have things we are displeased with specific to this game, but the only expectations that we should have are when existing items for purchase are not performing as described.

We have a way to share feedback and if they are interested, they'll take note
We've seen a lot of changes from this and it will continue

Nightzerk

Sigtric wrote: »

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

Yes, at first this was the case, but you can't possibly justify the performance in cyrodiil or the lack of content for pvp players. They do not care anymore. We want an appology. I don't even care if it'll take years to fix it, as long as they actually give us some specific info on how they are going to do it. Saying "We made fixes to performance" is just another way of saying "We don't know what to do".

Nightzerk

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Prob a better solution to act by not buying certain things that don't align with your interests.

I understand your point of view but it shouldn't be expected that any company responds to most feedback especially in terms of making changes

We all have things we are displeased with specific to this game, but the only expectations that we should have are when existing items for purchase are not performing as described.

We have a way to share feedback and if they are interested, they'll take note
We've seen a lot of changes from this and it will continue

I wrote this mostly for the performance issues that we see today. I have to agree with you on the content, Im just frustrated. However the game is not performing as promised regarding the current state of cyrodiil.

MasterSpatula

Sigtric wrote: »

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

People find it a lot harder to behave this way when they have personal experience of the person they're lambasting. A little more openness, honesty, and visibility from ZOS might do wonders for the community's general demeanor.

DMuehlhausen

No company really replies to complaints or rants.

They also are never going to talk openly about bugs, or reply to bug reports. What do you want to hear exactly. Obviously if it's a bug it will prioritized and worked on you wouldn't get anymore information than that.

Yes it's a bad look when their auto reply system chooses key words for it's responses and a lot of time sends soemthing back that doesn't connect to the issue at all, but to ask people to respond to every single that comes in you would have to more than triple the work force of the customer support probably and even then they would be behind at times.

Nightzerk

DMuehlhausen wrote: »

No company really replies to complaints or rants.

They also are never going to talk openly about bugs, or reply to bug reports. What do you want to hear exactly. Obviously if it's a bug it will prioritized and worked on you wouldn't get anymore information than that.

Yes it's a bad look when their auto reply system chooses key words for it's responses and a lot of time sends soemthing back that doesn't connect to the issue at all, but to ask people to respond to every single that comes in you would have to more than triple the work force of the customer support probably and even then they would be behind at times.

Im not asking them to reply to me personally. Posting a public appology would be a step in the right direction. The actual details doesnt need to be there, but a plan would be awesome.

Dark_Claw

ZOS:

Bouldercleave

Who is this "WE" that you speak of?

I myself don't need them to write a public apology - it would amount to nothing but pillow talk anyway.

Either fix the problems, or the game will die like many others and nothing they SAY will change that. Without fixing the problems causing it, a public apology means nothing. We don't need words, we need action.

LegacyDM

Sigtric wrote: »

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

I don't think the op is unreasonable and doesn't come off as a demanding brat like you suggest. He is frustrated and makes valid points. The eso subscription offers little for pvpers. The performance is abysmal. Many of us have been patient and been loyal paying customers for years now in the hopes that some of our money would go to fixing these issues. Communication in all regards to this game has been poor. I appreciate the devs and know they are busy but give us more than just patch note updates. Is it too much to ask that they engage meaningful discussion weekly or monthly to let us know their vision? Wheeler did a great explanation on eso live way back on how the cyrodil engine works, quadrants and spacing out, but that was a while ago and why do we still have issues? I wish they would be honest and just tell us they aren't going to fix it as advertised or tell us it's as good as it's going to get. Rather than string us along.

MEBengalsFan2001

Sigtric wrote: »

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

I wonder how many here have played other MMOs where in basic open world you have lag so bad that in one minute you are at point A and than zoned to point B and than kicked off the server. Or so bad that it takes 20 minutes to move 5 steps due to server lag, been there and done that.

I wonder how many actually understand that time of day when you play also impacts performance of the game.

If I log into any MMO game at 6am EST the game will almost never lag, any game. However, if I log into a MMO game say around 8-9PM Friday EST the game will lag horribly due to vast number of playing logging into the game to play it.

Nightzerk

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Who is this "WE" that you speak of?

I myself don't need them to write a public apology - it would amount to nothing but pillow talk anyway.

Either fix the problems, or the game will die like many others and nothing they SAY will change that. Without fixing the problems causing it, a public apology means nothing. We don't need words, we need action.

We need both! Dont even think for a second that they will improve something without saying it first. You will not wake up to them saying "Fixed all performance issues in cyrodiil" they need to comunicate with the players. As any other company does. Even if most of us have no expirience around servers they still need to comunicate. Thats how you keep your custumers. I agree that we need to see action but dont fool yourself. No company fixes something without taking credit for it by anouncing it publicly.

Nightzerk

LegacyDM wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

I don't think the op is unreasonable and doesn't come off as a demanding brat like you suggest. He is frustrated and makes valid points. The eso subscription offers little for pvpers. The performance is abysmal. Many of us have been patient and been loyal paying customers for years now in the hopes that some of our money would go to fixing these issues. Communication in all regards to this game has been poor. I appreciate the devs and know they are busy but give us more than just patch note updates. Is it too much to ask that they engage meaningful discussion weekly or monthly to let us know their vision? Wheeler did a great explanation on eso live way back on how the cyrodil engine works, quadrants and spacing out, but that was a while ago and why do we still have issues? I wish they would be honest and just tell us they aren't going to fix it as advertised or tell us it's as good as it's going to get. Rather than string us along.

This! I feel like you worded it better than I did.

Bouldercleave

Nightzerk wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

Who is this "WE" that you speak of?

I myself don't need them to write a public apology - it would amount to nothing but pillow talk anyway.

Either fix the problems, or the game will die like many others and nothing they SAY will change that. Without fixing the problems causing it, a public apology means nothing. We don't need words, we need action.

We need both! Dont even think for a second that they will improve something without saying it first. You will not wake up to them saying "Fixed all performance issues in cyrodiil" they need to comunicate with the players. As any other company does. Even if most of us have no expirience around servers they still need to comunicate. Thats how you keep your custumers. I agree that we need to see action but dont fool yourself. No company fixes something without taking credit for it by anouncing it publicly.

I'm not talking about communication, I'm talking about the apology that you seem to feel that you are entitled to.

Read the patch notes. They DO communicate.

Doctordarkspawn

Sigtric wrote: »

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

Every company has their apologists, it seems.

This game has a bad habit of the people in charge not making a game for the customer, and instead making a game for either themselves or shareholders. See the entire tank debaucle and the amnesty that -has- gone between the tank community and the combat designer and all that.

People rant and corner people in the parking lot because they want their voice to be heard, and they see that as the only way to do that. ZOS -has- been geting better, with the new dev notes and such on the PTS. But we can allways go farther.

TheValkyn

Sigtric wrote: »

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

They get paid to deliver a service. They continually fail at delivering that service. The business world is not forgiving and it's not a place for people that need to hear sweet praise on a 24/7 basis. When someone adds something to the Crown Store that is outrageously price a select few will claim "Well, it's a business". Those same people will be the first to jump in front of the feedback or criticism when ZOS is not treating their customers with the expected and promised quality service stating that it's too negative.

Get it together, ZOS.

Mercutio

I agree that ZOS has bad communication. I've just come to accept it for what it is.

I have to disagree about the Customer Service. I've always had a good experience and find it to be among the best in my twenty year history of playing MMORPGs.

NewBlacksmurf

Nightzerk wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Prob a better solution to act by not buying certain things that don't align with your interests.

I understand your point of view but it shouldn't be expected that any company responds to most feedback especially in terms of making changes

We all have things we are displeased with specific to this game, but the only expectations that we should have are when existing items for purchase are not performing as described.

We have a way to share feedback and if they are interested, they'll take note
We've seen a lot of changes from this and it will continue

I wrote this mostly for the performance issues that we see today. I have to agree with you on the content, Im just frustrated. However the game is not performing as promised regarding the current state of cyrodiil.

@Nightzerk
Depending upon the server and platform the game is actually a ton better than at release on PC and Xbox One.

I haven't played on PS4 but consider it's always been less than ideal on PC and Xbox one and with each update we see fixes but we also see new issues.

Collectively what I e learned in terms of this company.....don't pay for anything if you're not satisfied and open a ticket each time.

If you saw my Xbox one specific tech thread posts you'd see I personally am more than dissatisfied with a lot specific to performance.

I'd like for them to fix this and that but I don't expect them to because if they were capable it wouldn't be a complaint. Typically companies will fix or resolve what their resources allow and otherwise not resolve things out of their control or competencies.

The reality is we are spending money on a team whose leader while with Mythic entertainment for a game called Dark Age of Camelot had similar outstanding performance issues.

I'm chalking it up to....the can't instead of won't do that leads my expectations away from performance fixes.
I do expect performance changes but so far that's causing ppl to buy new hardware for PC and PS4 and soon to be Xbox one (Scorpio) and already the Xbox one S for hdr changes.

Sovaso

Pointlessly

Rev Rielle

I find it difficult with your attitude that you've indeed played since launch.
How could you possibly say such things? It's a complete fabrication.

Half the player bases seems to think ZoS don't care, and that ZoS themselves haven't put countless more hours into making the game a success, far more than any player playing the game. This is their job. Of course they want the game to thrive and for it to be the best it can possibly be. But they can't wave a magic wand and fix the problems that are inherent to the engine the game was built upon, and they themselves have said on numerous occasions that the lag in Cyrodiil is very difficult to accurately diagnose and treat.

Many players in the past have even suggested that they think ZoS has the fix and they're just sitting on their hands having a laugh at us, in effect biting the hand that feeds? That's just forum conspiracy madness. And they have given plenty of responses in regards to Cyrodiil in the past. It seems as though if they're not answering the same questions from the player base over and over again every month, players start to complain about their poor communication and saying ZoS don't care, etc etc.

Could their communication be better? Certainly, there's always room for improvement. But to suggest that ZoS have an unhealthy attitude towards their player base is grossly inaccurate. Are most definitely two sides to any story, and in the this case I believe the fault lies more heavily with the forum user and our apparent Alzheimic memory.

Nightzerk

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Nightzerk wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Prob a better solution to act by not buying certain things that don't align with your interests.

I understand your point of view but it shouldn't be expected that any company responds to most feedback especially in terms of making changes

We all have things we are displeased with specific to this game, but the only expectations that we should have are when existing items for purchase are not performing as described.

We have a way to share feedback and if they are interested, they'll take note
We've seen a lot of changes from this and it will continue

I wrote this mostly for the performance issues that we see today. I have to agree with you on the content, Im just frustrated. However the game is not performing as promised regarding the current state of cyrodiil.

@Nightzerk
Depending upon the server and platform the game is actually a ton better than at release on PC and Xbox One.

I haven't played on PS4 but consider it's always been less than ideal on PC and Xbox one and with each update we see fixes but we also see new issues.

Collectively what I e learned in terms of this company.....don't pay for anything if you're not satisfied and open a ticket each time.

If you saw my Xbox one specific tech thread posts you'd see I personally am more than dissatisfied with a lot specific to performance.

I'd like for them to fix this and that but I don't expect them to because if they were capable it wouldn't be a complaint. Typically companies will fix or resolve what their resources allow and otherwise not resolve things out of their control or competencies.

The reality is we are spending money on a team whose leader while with Mythic entertainment for a game called Dark Age of Camelot had similar outstanding performance issues.

I'm chalking it up to....the can't instead of won't do that leads my expectations away from performance fixes.
I do expect performance changes but so far that's causing ppl to buy new hardware for PC and PS4 and soon to be Xbox one (Scorpio) and already the Xbox one S for hdr changes.

Performance wise it was actually better at launch, but due to a fix that was needed in order to remove a significant amount of bots they had to sacrifice the PvP, which I can't be mad at them for as the bots where a really big problem. But after that then yes, it has improved a bit but its so little.

Nightzerk

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I find it difficult with your attitude that you've indeed played since launch.
How could you possibly say such things? It's a complete fabrication.

Half the player bases seems to think ZoS don't care, and that ZoS themselves haven't put countless more hours into making the game a success, far more than any player playing the game. This is their job. Of course they want the game to thrive and for it to be the best it can possibly be. But they can't wave a magic wand and fix the problems that are inherent to the engine the game was built upon, and they themselves have said on numerous occasions that the lag in Cyrodiil is very difficult to accurately diagnose and treat.

Many players in the past have even suggested that they think ZoS has the fix and they're just sitting on their hands having a laugh at us, in effect biting the hand that feeds? That's just forum conspiracy madness. And they have given plenty of responses in regards to Cyrodiil in the past. It seems as though if they're not answering the same questions from the player base over and over again every month, players start to complain about their poor communication and saying ZoS don't care, etc etc.

Could their communication be better? Certainly, there's always room for improvement. But to suggest that ZoS have an unhealthy attitude towards their player base is grossly inaccurate. Are most definitely two sides to any story, and in the this case I believe the fault lies more heavily with the forum user and our apparent Alzheimic memory.

Regarding performance then yes, I can suggest that. They simply aren't communicating well enough with their customers atm. Regarding balance and content I think they are doing a really good job. ofc, they can always improve but still.

TheValkyn

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Half the player bases seems to think ZoS don't care, and that ZoS themselves haven't put countless more hours into making the game a success, far more than any player playing the game. This is their job. Of course they want the game to thrive and for it to be the best it can possibly be. But they can't wave a magic wand and fix the problems that are inherent to the engine the game was built upon, and they themselves have said on numerous occasions that the lag in Cyrodiil is very difficult to accurately diagnose and treat.

Odd, the last time I checked the players weren't expected to put in the hours to make the game a success. When you charge real money for something you better make damn sure you're delivering what you promise. Zenimax Online Studios has not.

LegacyDM

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Sigtric wrote: »

Kendo12 wrote: »

ZOS has terrible customer service and communication. No wonder people steer clear of this game. Its a real shame.

ZOS has terrible customers too

With the way people demand things, speak to the employees, rant and rave about crap they have no clue about, it's really no wonder they don't come on the forums too much.

Anyway, look at patch notes with every maintenance and update, many of them include changes to both server and client regarding performance in cyrodiil

I wonder how many here have played other MMOs where in basic open world you have lag so bad that in one minute you are at point A and than zoned to point B and than kicked off the server. Or so bad that it takes 20 minutes to move 5 steps due to server lag, been there and done that.

I wonder how many actually understand that time of day when you play also impacts performance of the game.

If I log into any MMO game at 6am EST the game will almost never lag, any game. However, if I log into a MMO game say around 8-9PM Friday EST the game will lag horribly due to vast number of playing logging into the game to play it.

This is 2017 not 2001. But I'll bite. Let's see started playing eq1 on a DSL rated for <1 megabits per sec. Don't recall any lag. Played eqII and ddo from 2003 - 2007 no lag. Tested lotr online no lag. Played age of Conan from release around 2008-2010 terrible launch but no lag. Played rift, aion, swtor, wow, gw2, d&d neverwinter, Diablo 3, all to max characters and no lag. Playing overwatch and my ping is half it is on eso. No lag. Sure some had worse launches then others and got stuck in terribly long login ques but never had issues with lag.

So maybe if you experienced lag in any of these games the problem was on your end. But in Eso's case the problem is clearly on theirs.

Rev Rielle wrote: »

I find it difficult with your attitude that you've indeed played since launch.
How could you possibly say such things? It's a complete fabrication.

Half the player bases seems to think ZoS don't care, and that ZoS themselves haven't put countless more hours into making the game a success, far more than any player playing the game. This is their job. Of course they want the game to thrive and for it to be the best it can possibly be. But they can't wave a magic wand and fix the problems that are inherent to the engine the game was built upon, and they themselves have said on numerous occasions that the lag in Cyrodiil is very difficult to accurately diagnose and treat.

Many players in the past have even suggested that they think ZoS has the fix and they're just sitting on their hands having a laugh at us, in effect biting the hand that feeds? That's just forum conspiracy madness. And they have given plenty of responses in regards to Cyrodiil in the past. It seems as though if they're not answering the same questions from the player base over and over again every month, players start to complain about their poor communication and saying ZoS don't care, etc etc.

Could their communication be better? Certainly, there's always room for improvement. But to suggest that ZoS have an unhealthy attitude towards their player base is grossly inaccurate. Are most definitely two sides to any story, and in the this case I believe the fault lies more heavily with the forum user and our apparent Alzheimic memory.

Your right they can't wave a magic wand and fix it. however, How many years has it been now and didn't they sell 7mill copies? That's a crap load of money. Pretty sure they can use some of that to do an overhaul and fix. They choose not to because they sink their money into pve, crown store, and are probably still paying back residuals. It's a business decision. Wish they would tell us the truth.

Rev Rielle

TheValkyn wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Half the player bases seems to think ZoS don't care, and that ZoS themselves haven't put countless more hours into making the game a success, far more than any player playing the game. This is their job. Of course they want the game to thrive and for it to be the best it can possibly be. But they can't wave a magic wand and fix the problems that are inherent to the engine the game was built upon, and they themselves have said on numerous occasions that the lag in Cyrodiil is very difficult to accurately diagnose and treat.

Odd, the last time I checked the players weren't expected to put in the hours to make the game a success. When you charge real money for something you better make damn sure you're delivering what you promise. Zenimax Online Studios has not.

Of course not, how you could even think that is a bit confusing. But some players seem to think that because they put in the hours and play the game a lot they're somehow entitled to receive some sort of special treatment or response. Nay, in many cases they demand it.

TheValkyn

Rev Rielle wrote: »

TheValkyn wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Half the player bases seems to think ZoS don't care, and that ZoS themselves haven't put countless more hours into making the game a success, far more than any player playing the game. This is their job. Of course they want the game to thrive and for it to be the best it can possibly be. But they can't wave a magic wand and fix the problems that are inherent to the engine the game was built upon, and they themselves have said on numerous occasions that the lag in Cyrodiil is very difficult to accurately diagnose and treat.

Odd, the last time I checked the players weren't expected to put in the hours to make the game a success. When you charge real money for something you better make damn sure you're delivering what you promise. Zenimax Online Studios has not.

Of course not, how you could even think that is a bit confusing. But some players seem to think that because they put in the hours and play the game a lot they're somehow entitled to receive some sort of special treatment or response. Nay, in many cases they demand it.

When a subscription is being paid communication becomes an expectation. Do I really need to lay out all of the promised services and qualities that were made near launch by Matt Firor in order to sell preorders?

Bouldercleave

There is an ENDLESS list of products and promises that failed to "meet expectations". Infomercials have created an entire culture around it.

I pay for a sub because I'm satisfied enough to continue doing so. When that satisfaction ends, then so does the sub as well as me logging in.

You are not entitled to your expected level of communications or performance simply because you demand it. You accept the level they give you or you bounce - that's really it.

And as for all the promised services and qualities - have you watched the past 9 -10 election cycles? This world and almost everything in it is built on empty promises.

LegacyDM

Rev Rielle wrote: »

TheValkyn wrote: »

Rev Rielle wrote: »

Half the player bases seems to think ZoS don't care, and that ZoS themselves haven't put countless more hours into making the game a success, far more than any player playing the game. This is their job. Of course they want the game to thrive and for it to be the best it can possibly be. But they can't wave a magic wand and fix the problems that are inherent to the engine the game was built upon, and they themselves have said on numerous occasions that the lag in Cyrodiil is very difficult to accurately diagnose and treat.

Odd, the last time I checked the players weren't expected to put in the hours to make the game a success. When you charge real money for something you better make damn sure you're delivering what you promise. Zenimax Online Studios has not.

Of course not, how you could even think that is a bit confusing. But some players seem to think that because they put in the hours and play the game a lot they're somehow entitled to receive some sort of special treatment or response. Nay, in many cases they demand it.

Online gaming companies are businesses with customers that sell goods and services. This game is not free to play. It is buy to play. There is a difference. Under buy to play, everyone has paid currency for a product, or expected service. When business fails to deliver, customers have the right to complain or provide feedback. If the business is smart, they will listen. else they lose customers and lose money. It's that simple. Chastising or lecturing customers for wanting to voice their displeasure and rushing to the defense of a Million dollar company is, well, I'll let the the community decide for themselves how to interpret thatl

LegacyDM

Bouldercleave wrote: »

There is an ENDLESS list of products and promises that failed to "meet expectations". Infomercials have created an entire culture around it.

I pay for a sub because I'm satisfied enough to continue doing so. When that satisfaction ends, then so does the sub as well as me logging in.

You are not entitled to your expected level of communications or performance simply because you demand it. You accept the level they give you or you bounce - that's really it.

And as for all the promised services and qualities - have you watched the past 9 -10 election cycles? This world and almost everything in it is built on empty promises.

Not entirely true. There is something called false advertising and companies can get sued for it.