Is black rose the root of heavy armour power?

hassubhai

I've always thought that without black rose there would be a significant reduction in the amount of heavy armour in pvp. I believe this because firstly a huge percentage of people who wear heavy armour use black rose, this is because it makes sustaining so much easier.

My question to you guys is, do you think black rose is the cause of heavy armour being broken? Are the ptr changes enough to fix it, or does it need more nerfs?

Cronopoly

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Somehow the leading question posted above talks to one leg of the table. Look at the useful survivability of Heavy Armor passives, and lack thereof for Light Armor, and Medium Armor.

Heavy Armor seems preferred at the moment in PVP due to several things.
1) Proc Sets 1 shotting Everyone.
2) Heavy Armor passive for resources with the Constitution passive
3) Heavy Armor passive for much better resistances against Physical and Magicka damage.

The narrative against Black Rose is that someone gets some extra resources from constitution and a minbor note of some potential damage from Wrath over time in a protracted melee encounter. Additionally Black Rose had 2 stamina Stats (One is being converted into Magicka next patch)

So when one says is Black Rose the Root of Heavy Armor power I say no. There was an obvious need to survive. HA provides more Hitpoints and resistances to survive.

I known several of those unkillable DK's that are not using any Black Rose... 1Tam negated the short sighted view that Black Rose needed to be the only game in town.

P.S. IMO the only people complaining about Black Rose are the 1 shot specialists who find their Mark survived the initial burst, and have managed to turn the tables on them. It's called 6 months of Karma coming back at you....periodically. 1 Shotters are still doing great in pvp.

Kolache

TBH, I don't notice a huge difference between:
Black Rose + some weapon damage jewelry vs.
7th Legion + some stamina recovery jewelry

in terms of sustain and damage. Some people really seem to hate it though, so I'll just shrug and use one of my other setups to do what feels pretty similar to me.

raasdal

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

I think BR will still be the most used HA set for PvP. Since it is a PvP set, that is fine by me.

But no. The HA meta and HA being OP, never had anything to do with BR. But people will always point to the most visible object, when they do not really know what is going on. Therefore people blame BR, instead of HA in general. BR is not overpowered. HA is.

azoriangaming

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

if I remember correctly what made light and medium pointless in pvp was the massive nerf to nirnhoned and also the buff to heavy armor at the same time

Sneaky-Snurr

I'd like to choose option 3 until I read 'was never the reason for heavy armour being OP'.
So basically you're saying heavy armour is, in any regards, OP?

My good sir, heavy armour is never OP in the first place. To me, it's very balanced as it is and ZOS, to my surprise, actually did a really good job balancing heavy armour. The resistance offered is not substantial by any means. Constitution passive only works every 4 seconds and in fights, it will never be good enough as a substitute to resource regens. Med and light armour passives offer way more sustainable regen and those resources are what's actually keeping any player alive.
Why do you think magclasses always wear robes and stamclasses wear jacks? Simple, to have high regen in their respective resources for healing/defensive shields and dodge roll and/or vigour.

Heavy armour does not provide any substantial sustain. Black Rose only amplifies it by 40% and that is by no means a lot as according to some people. If you actually look at the regen bonus from constitution in conjunction with said set, they only increase the 4-sec regen by little amounts. It'll only become borderline moderate and a lot when you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour but who actually wears full-7 pieces in topline PvP anyways? To add to that, your base regen is already very low if you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour.
For PvE, heavy armour is not imposing on anyone.

That said, I don't see how heavy armour and Black Rose are the 'new meta' as purported by complainers and the likes of the same league.

leepalmer95

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I'd like to choose option 3 until I read 'was never the reason for heavy armour being OP'.
So basically you're saying heavy armour is, in any regards, OP?

My good sir, heavy armour is never OP in the first place. To me, it's very balanced as it is and ZOS, to my surprise, actually did a really good job balancing heavy armour. The resistance offered is not substantial by any means. Constitution passive only works every 4 seconds and in fights, it will never be good enough as a substitute to resource regens. Med and light armour passives offer way more sustainable regen and those resources are what's actually keeping any player alive.
Why do you think magclasses always wear robes and stamclasses wear jacks? Simple, to have high regen in their respective resources for healing/defensive shields and dodge roll and/or vigour.

Heavy armour does not provide any substantial sustain. Black Rose only amplifies it by 40% and that is by no means a lot as according to some people. If you actually look at the regen bonus from constitution in conjunction with said set, they only increase the 4-sec regen by little amounts. It'll only become borderline moderate and a lot when you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour but who actually wears full-7 pieces in topline PvP anyways? To add to that, your base regen is already very low if you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour.
For PvE, heavy armour is not imposing on anyone.

That said, I don't see how heavy armour and Black Rose are the 'new meta' as purported by complainers and the likes of the same league.

Tell that to my heavy armor 600 regen stam sorc.

TequilaFire

The bad one shot gankers will always say heavy armor is overpowered because it helps counter their play style as it should.
Thank goodness it was finally buffed as it was useless before, the good gankers still know how to counter it.
And of course you can mange 600 stam regen by many means other than armor.

Edziu

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

@Sneaky-Snurr in pve ofc heavy armor isnt for dps but its pve, we talking here about pvp, not pve

can you explain me why I dont see anyone other than sneakynb gangers in medium and shieldstacking sorcs with cloaking magnb's in light? only those that I wrote are able to wear non heavy armor and also just nb's also wearing heaavy armor if they are independet to stealth.

you say heavy armor is balanced...so what about medium and light armors? ofc these armors giving you some more regens but only to 1 stat while heavy armor giving you both mag ans stam in fight.

if four you heavy armor is balance please explain me then why 80%+ of cyrodil population is running in heavy armor? not only as tank but to deal damage also

list me a few reasons why I should wear light or medium armor in open fight while I cant shieldstack and if I not rely on stealth

SnubbS

It's not Blackrose, it was never Blackrose -- and next patch will prove that. The HA passives are more relevant to the things you need in PVP than the Medium Armor passives.

The choice is between Dodgeroll & Skill cost reduction, Crit & 300~ Weapon dmg vs 10-15% Mitigation, 10% Extra health, 8% Healing received, 500 Extra Magic Regen, 200 Weapon dmg, & Heavy Attacks that restore 4k Stam at a time.

Don't even get me started on HA Magplar.

TequilaFire

Don't even get me started on the dodge roll meta either.
Gonna be interesting to see the changes to shuffle.
I would never dream of using anything other than medium on my NB and stam sorc as that is what makes them tick.
On the other hand I built my Magplar as a paladin and have always run heavy since beta and had to sacrifice some damage for survivability in zergs and not being one shot as I refuse to run proc sets other than Skoria.

Biro123

Blackrose (and constitution) is very situational and build/playstyle-specific..

In large group or zerg-surfing or just plain in sieges - you are generally at range and NOT getting constantly hit, so its sustain is non-existant. And if you build relies on that rather than regen - then you just end up heavy-attacking with a bow... not exactly optimal..

I tried a BlackRose melee build on my stamsorc some time back - and found even in constant melee, the sustain wasn't enough. So switched to redguard (its passive is a massive contributor to melee stam sustain, btw - bigger than constitution IIRC.) I still couldn't sustain. Why? I was low CP Didn't have all the CP spent in cost-reduction that a 531 does which these builds are made for.

Now for a 1vx tank setup - with tons of block cost reduction, constitution will let you sustain forever. I'm not sure (don't do tanks), but I don't believe that even needs Blackrose. But Heavy Armour is what makes these build possible.

BUT - its strength (and I like this, honestly) is that the HA passives affect magicka and stamina equally. The change to BR makes it neither a stam or magicka set - but a hybrid set. There should be more of these..

So on to it sustaining BOTH resources.. Since the U13 news and initial nerf on vel curse, I've been doing a fair bit of theory-crafting for my magsorc... One of the things I wanted to include was some stamina sustain. My old build *just* had enough magicka sustain so I couldn't simply drop that to add to the other.. so I started thinking about heavy armour with the idea that I'd only need stam when being attacked - so constitution would be firing exactly when I need it. But was very worried about magicka sustain at range..

Effectively, I ended up replacing Lich with Heavy Julianos. change 2 damage jewellery enchants with cost reduction, change mundus from max mag to mag regen and swiched from max health/mag food to max mag/mag-regen (happy to have lower health with heavy armour)..

Now I'm still experimenting but my general feel on this so far is that my mag sustain is *just* enough.. extended long ranged fights need supplementing with a resto heavy attack which restores a *ton* of mag due to both resto and heavy armour passives. up-close fights has my mag regen supplemented by constitution procs - And I get stam sustain too. However I can't streak as much as before to get distance/escape...

Survivability is MUCH better - but damage is also significantly lower... Effectively, the extra spell damage from Julianos only makes up for losing it from Jewellry - but I lose light-armour penetration and mag crit (but gain a little of that crit back from Julianos). I also lose about 5k max magicka from what I had but gain 200 spell dmg (situational) from wrath..

I guess what I'm getting at is that switching from light to heavy has gained me survivability but cost me damage. This sounds suspiciously like balance to me (at least in my case)..

raasdal

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I'd like to choose option 3 until I read 'was never the reason for heavy armour being OP'.
So basically you're saying heavy armour is, in any regards, OP?

My good sir, heavy armour is never OP in the first place. To me, it's very balanced as it is and ZOS, to my surprise, actually did a really good job balancing heavy armour. The resistance offered is not substantial by any means. Constitution passive only works every 4 seconds and in fights, it will never be good enough as a substitute to resource regens. Med and light armour passives offer way more sustainable regen and those resources are what's actually keeping any player alive.
Why do you think magclasses always wear robes and stamclasses wear jacks? Simple, to have high regen in their respective resources for healing/defensive shields and dodge roll and/or vigour.

Heavy armour does not provide any substantial sustain. Black Rose only amplifies it by 40% and that is by no means a lot as according to some people. If you actually look at the regen bonus from constitution in conjunction with said set, they only increase the 4-sec regen by little amounts. It'll only become borderline moderate and a lot when you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour but who actually wears full-7 pieces in topline PvP anyways? To add to that, your base regen is already very low if you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour.
For PvE, heavy armour is not imposing on anyone.

That said, I don't see how heavy armour and Black Rose are the 'new meta' as purported by complainers and the likes of the same league.

Tell that to my heavy armor 600 regen stam sorc.

@leepalmer95 You and i both know that is an issue with Dark Deal, not HA

Asgari

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

You should look at Black Rose like a gateway drug for people to heavy armor. They try Black Rose first as their first heavy armor because of all the hype.

They then realize you can sustain pretty much just as well in any other heavy armor.

leepalmer95

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

raasdal wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

I'd like to choose option 3 until I read 'was never the reason for heavy armour being OP'.
So basically you're saying heavy armour is, in any regards, OP?

My good sir, heavy armour is never OP in the first place. To me, it's very balanced as it is and ZOS, to my surprise, actually did a really good job balancing heavy armour. The resistance offered is not substantial by any means. Constitution passive only works every 4 seconds and in fights, it will never be good enough as a substitute to resource regens. Med and light armour passives offer way more sustainable regen and those resources are what's actually keeping any player alive.
Why do you think magclasses always wear robes and stamclasses wear jacks? Simple, to have high regen in their respective resources for healing/defensive shields and dodge roll and/or vigour.

Heavy armour does not provide any substantial sustain. Black Rose only amplifies it by 40% and that is by no means a lot as according to some people. If you actually look at the regen bonus from constitution in conjunction with said set, they only increase the 4-sec regen by little amounts. It'll only become borderline moderate and a lot when you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour but who actually wears full-7 pieces in topline PvP anyways? To add to that, your base regen is already very low if you wear 7 pieces of heavy armour.
For PvE, heavy armour is not imposing on anyone.

That said, I don't see how heavy armour and Black Rose are the 'new meta' as purported by complainers and the likes of the same league.

Tell that to my heavy armor 600 regen stam sorc.

@leepalmer95 You and i both know that is an issue with Dark Deal, not HA

Tell that to my 600 regen stam dk.

Lokey0024

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Im not sure if anyone left realized that the reason heavy armor is good in most cases is the secondary resource return on ability use. Certain classes benefit, others dont as much.

If you are zerging you dont get focused as easy (it still happens quickly) or fighting multiple opponents the magika/stam return allows for more versatility, you're taking more hits so need the midigation and probably have some magika abilities on bar more so then a dedicated group build. So no, its called BALANCE for a reason, light and medium hit harder and have dmg midigation ways of their own, not as strong as HA. They have focused resource regen,either mag or stam, heavy is lower but both.

That said, now BR users can probably use blue stam/health food for the extra 1k stam to have the same dmg and , but have a slightly higher then base magika pool to igneous/dark deal from. So if anything its a stam and mag buff imo. You can use blue mag/health food or even witches brew and still have a decent stam pool to breakfree and (maybe) dodgeroll once.

Surgee

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Am I missing something with the Black Rose? I wear all heavy and it gives me a whooping 500 (or so) extra magicka and stamina EVERY FOUR SECONDS if I get hit. So if you are constantly being hit, In a 1 minute long battle (how many fights last that long?) you get 6000 resources which will let you use 1 or two extra skills. How is this OP? I've just recently switched my set to another one and I see no difference at all.

Emencie

Edziu wrote: »

can you explain me why I dont see anyone other than sneakynb gangers in medium and shieldstacking sorcs with cloaking magnb's in light? only those that I wrote are able to wear non heavy armor and also just nb's also wearing heaavy armor if they are independet to stealth.

Because that is the last armor type left?

I think you just asked why you don't see anyone other than the people wearing Medium armor and those that wear light armor, not in heavy armor. That question makes no sense.

Edziu wrote: »

you say heavy armor is balanced...so what about medium and light armors? ofc these armors giving you some more regens but only to 1 stat while heavy armor giving you both mag ans stam in fight.

Regen is not the only thing that medium armor gives... Are we forgetting that the much complained about 1 shot sneaky builds that there was an entire mod built to counter is a medium armor build? Shield stacking, healing bombing, all these builds are non heavy armor builds. Medium armor and light armor have their place they simply do not do the same thing as heavy.

Edziu wrote: »

if four you heavy armor is balance please explain me then why 80%+ of cyrodil population is running in heavy armor? not only as tank but to deal damage also

This is flat out false, so I cannot explain it other than to say it is your imagination.

Edziu wrote: »

list me a few reasons why I should wear light or medium armor in open fight while I cant shieldstack and if I not rely on stealth

You have already listed the reasons, if you are not shield stacking, sneaking, healing, sniping, or otherwise performing the roles light and medium armor were made for then yes, you should be in heavy armor! This just makes sense... What? Do you think there should be a zero armor option?

The reason a few (magplar) builds that would normally use light have swapped to heavy is not because heavy is better for the build, but instead because the build can work with heavy and they need the survivability from the medium armor wearers. But this is not a problem with heavy armor, relather it's a problem with 1 shot mechanics existing at all in PvP.

Edziu

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Emencie wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

can you explain me why I dont see anyone other than sneakynb gangers in medium and shieldstacking sorcs with cloaking magnb's in light? only those that I wrote are able to wear non heavy armor and also just nb's also wearing heaavy armor if they are independet to stealth.

Because that is the last armor type left?

I think you just asked why you don't see anyone other than the people wearing Medium armor and those that wear light armor, not in heavy armor. That question makes no sense.

I asked why I dont see medium, light armor on anyone who isnt nb or mag sorc

light armor is only for shieldstackers or cloaking nb, if not cloak then also mag nb wont use this crappy armor, medium armor is viable only for gangers to just mobility in stealth, thats all


now to compare, I talked some with my friend, he is stam dk, 30k health, heavy armored cap resists, 35k max stamina and 2.5k wepaon dmg buffed, 11.5k tooltip on dizzying swing

me, ganger, 3.5k weapon dmg buffed, 30k max stam, medium armor, 17k health and 13k dizzying swing tooltip and 11k-12k resists

now tell me what is balance here? while he have over 2x more resist than me, 2x more health than me + healing buff from armor, he have less wepaon dmg and not much more max stamina he have just less tooltip on his skill which will hit me similiar hard or harder me because of my lack of resists than I hitting him with cap ressists with same skill.

I will need to hit him 4-6+- times to kill him if he wont hea as glass cannon max burst build while he on tankly build will need only 2-3 hits to rekt me

this is difference in damage between heavy armored players in pvp and medium/light armor in pvp

to additional in heavy armor you have much much bigger survivability+ sustain ofc because you will dont have only 1 stat on high regen, you will have nice stat return into both which will incude to this you will have more resources to buffs/debuffs.
It is especially on mag build good because of additional stamina return for CC, dodge etc, on stmaina build you will have more magica to better sustain using class utility skills

Riggsy

Kolache wrote: »

TBH, I don't notice a huge difference between:
Black Rose + some weapon damage jewelry vs.
7th Legion + some stamina recovery jewelry

in terms of sustain and damage. Some people really seem to hate it though, so I'll just shrug and use one of my other setups to do what feels pretty similar to me.

This

I switched from BR to 7th recently and noticed no sustain issues. The problem with heavy has always been the passives.

WalksonGraves

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Black rose only adds like 400 mag/stam every 4 seconds and only while taking damage, as far as resource generation it's worse than most sets

CadaCosa

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Black rose set is nice, please leave it alone

Lokey0024

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Edziu wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

can you explain me why I dont see anyone other than sneakynb gangers in medium and shieldstacking sorcs with cloaking magnb's in light? only those that I wrote are able to wear non heavy armor and also just nb's also wearing heaavy armor if they are independet to stealth.

Because that is the last armor type left?

I think you just asked why you don't see anyone other than the people wearing Medium armor and those that wear light armor, not in heavy armor. That question makes no sense.

I asked why I dont see medium, light armor on anyone who isnt nb or mag sorc

light armor is only for shieldstackers or cloaking nb, if not cloak then also mag nb wont use this crappy armor, medium armor is viable only for gangers to just mobility in stealth, thats all


now to compare, I talked some with my friend, he is stam dk, 30k health, heavy armored cap resists, 35k max stamina and 2.5k wepaon dmg buffed, 11.5k tooltip on dizzying swing

me, ganger, 3.5k weapon dmg buffed, 30k max stam, medium armor, 17k health and 13k dizzying swing tooltip and 11k-12k resists

now tell me what is balance here? while he have over 2x more resist than me, 2x more health than me + healing buff from armor, he have less wepaon dmg and not much more max stamina he have just less tooltip on his skill which will hit me similiar hard or harder me because of my lack of resists than I hitting him with cap ressists with same skill.

I will need to hit him 4-6+- times to kill him if he wont hea as glass cannon max burst build while he on tankly build will need only 2-3 hits to rekt me

this is difference in damage between heavy armored players in pvp and medium/light armor in pvp

to additional in heavy armor you have much much bigger survivability+ sustain ofc because you will dont have only 1 stat on high regen, you will have nice stat return into both which will incude to this you will have more resources to buffs/debuffs.
It is especially on mag build good because of additional stamina return for CC, dodge etc, on stmaina build you will have more magica to better sustain using class utility skills

@Edziu what is your crit%. And your mundus. You can use shadow, further modifying crit dmg. Most heavy run thief to mod heals because heals crit too, or warrior to make base heals base higher. Also cp allocation into healing in the blue cp tree because heavy has to absorb dmg instead of dodgerolling. BALANCE. you can go all day on how each are so close but its apples and oranges comparisons.

DeadlyRecluse

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Black rose was always the scapegoat for other busted things. It's perhaps a little overtuned, but it isn't the single-set backbone of OPness people assume.

Sharee

Option 4:

- Black rose is fine and so is heavy armor.

gard

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Heavy armor does exactly what it's supposed to. People choosing it for survivability in pvp does not mean it's op.

EldritchPenguin

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

gard wrote: »

Heavy armor does exactly what it's supposed to. People choosing it for survivability in pvp does not mean it's op.

The problem with heavy is that it isn't properly balanced with other armor weights. Heavy armor users do sacrifice a little bit of damage, as well as some sustain in their preferred resource pool, but that's nothing compared to everything they gain: they can sustain both resource pools, they are vastly more durable, they have more health, and they have insane healing power. If you aren't a ganker, then light or medium armor are just barely worth considering.

Sneaky-Snurr

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tell that to my heavy armor 600 regen stam sorc.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tell that to my 600 regen stam dk.

@leepalmer95
Lmao. Then that means Sorc needs rebalancing and that has nothing to do with heavy armour passives. Your Sorc has class abilities and passives that can generate huge amounts of regens and that explains a lot why you only need 600 base regen in the first place.
As for your DK, you have GDB, Draw Essence, Battle Roar and Helping Hands for regen issues. Your one sentence statement is of no substance, mate.

If you take constitution + Black Rose for regen purposes (excluding your class passives and/or abilities), then it'll only increase your total regen to about 1400-1600. Take note that constitution works in every 4 second intervals and you MUST take damage in order for the passive to work. Total regen of up to 1600 for every 4 seconds isn't OP.
Makes sense?

@Edziu
As for your questions, I believe a lot of other posters who have responded to you here have mentioned some of what I had in mind.

hassubhai

raasdal wrote: »

I think BR will still be the most used HA set for PvP. Since it is a PvP set, that is fine by me.

But no. The HA meta and HA being OP, never had anything to do with BR. But people will always point to the most visible object, when they do not really know what is going on. Therefore people blame BR, instead of HA in general. BR is not overpowered. HA is.

So what HA would you run if black rose got removed from the game? Be honest lol.

Athrys5

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

lol

Athrys5

Black rose is fine and was never the reason for heavy armour being OP

Sneaky-Snurr wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tell that to my heavy armor 600 regen stam sorc.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Tell that to my 600 regen stam dk.

@leepalmer95
Lmao. Then that means Sorc needs rebalancing and that has nothing to do with heavy armour passives. Your Sorc has class abilities and passives that can generate huge amounts of regens and that explains a lot why you only need 600 base regen in the first place.
As for your DK, you have GDB, Draw Essence, Battle Roar and Helping Hands for regen issues. Your one sentence statement is of no substance, mate.

If you take constitution + Black Rose for regen purposes (excluding your class passives and/or abilities), then it'll only increase your total regen to about 1400-1600. Take note that constitution works in every 4 second intervals and you MUST take damage in order for the passive to work. Total regen of up to 1600 for every 4 seconds isn't OP.
Makes sense?

@Edziu
As for your questions, I believe a lot of other posters who have responded to you here have mentioned some of what I had in mind.

Again,we're talking about PvP not PvE. Stam dk with GDB,Draw Essence? just lol. Go through PvP sometimes and you will feel the difference running squishy medium against an HA user. With HA i run 600 stam reg on my stam dk, that is even reliable on a non cp camp; HA is just crazy, you have burst,you are tanky also the sustain is just crazy due to heavy attacks stam restore, + if you are a redguard it's even more easy to sustain yourself. No, it's not a class issues, every stam class with heavy is just OP; BR is not OP there are set waaaaaaaaaay more reliable that that, people just don't understand it, it's a passives issue. Try out fury or alchemist in heavy, screw BR; passives need to be fixed definetely.